poverty and expression of intellect!

[WALKYRIA]

How do you deal with poverty? Seriously? Can you seriously grow into your( "become who you are" said Nietzche) full INTP potential without the proper money ? Do you think that the expression of/ fruition of intellect in INTP is directly dependent on the quality of the upbringing(money?)? I heard that there were basically two kinda INTPs... On one hand: the high achieving/ highly intellectual/sholar/and recognized genius... And on the other hand: the unrecognized/lazy genius/underachiever/pseudo-intellectual... wa u think of diz dude?
It seems that I'm trying to go from the latter to the former... but psychologically difficult/impossible? Poverty has developed Fe and Ne prematurely... you know, poor people are not supposed to behave like dicks lol(it's politically incorrect isn't it ?). I don't regret my poverty though, I learned to love it.. and I became INTP lol.

Personally, being poor and having antecedents of low achieving(in high school, mainly becoz of a mild form of depression...later things changed!)... I feel a bit like a fraud(to the professors and my family) when I somehow perform highly. And the feeling(fear to be a high achiever/ considered as an intellectual) kinda sets boundaries to my abilities.


I'm a totally self-educated and self-made(next year) man, and really I never thought It was as hard as it is to go from the bottom way up to the top.. It's really hard-mentally- , because you cannot hide your non-rich behavioral patterns... and rich people sense that you'r an outsider.( humility, wisdom, and a non intellectual speech pattern...)

I am a student and I feel like my lack of socialization and aloofness is almost directly or...is partly due to poverty(If one person is interested in me, I will withdraw because my financial and time potential are very limited !!); becoz I'm self conscious about my money status... I'm poor. For instance, I can't date as well as I potentially could(since I live in a little room, and I'm not confident when I bring a girl in my lil home,nope.. It's just not how I envision a relationship with a gyal). I can't eat what I want. I can't do the cultural/intellectual activities I wish I could do. I can't offer quality stuffs to the people I love. I can't buy the books I love. I can't have a lifestyle like I would want to have . I cannot pursue my dreams. I don't meet the people I wish I could meet.( because med school as you know it is filled mainly with boring/ rich/good family TJ's and FJ's... I'm the more laid back NT) ..

I wonder if deeply I'm not a restricted/limited ENTP(because it seems I have a certain charism, wit and aura, I'm pretty popular but in a very low key way.. but that could just be a well developed Ne-Fe)... and also wonder how I would behave if I had good money and time for myself?I feel indeed limitated by my lack of money. I doubt I would stay home all time like I do now if I had money(would be traveling and meeting plenty of intelligent people out there, starting educational blogs, starting business projects in parallel with my jobs, get involved with politics, photography, ... !)...
I think I would be more balanced between I/E and the P/J.

SO INTPS: Is money a factor in your happiness? Did your happiness somehow increase when you started to earn good money?




*** CONTEXT: I've been always in the top 1% poorest people. dude, that's lame. For one reason or another I didn't have the chance to grow up with my parents( maybe the reason for my INTPness?); I grew up in poverty with my single grandmother( who couldn't read nor write nor educate me in the required occidental cultural ways !); It was great and difficult at the same time... I taught myself everything at school(I endured everything alone: from the bullying till the depression in my adolescence till entrance in university... ) ; I actually educated myself... I'm like one of those wild kids in some ways... never had opportunity for outside school activities/passions( besides soccer, because it was the cheapest-a ball-; so I became a star at it !)
Never tried music( although I loved it), never had chance to meet people like me ( NT*), actually it was a shock to find out there were other NTs.

OK, I'm tired... back later...

 

[Absurdity]

I heard that there were basically two kinda INTPs... On one hand: the high achieving/ highly intellectual/sholar/and recognized genius... And on the other hand: the unrecognized/lazy genius/underachiever/pseudo-intellectual... wa u think of diz dude?

The INTP = genius myth strikes again.

 

[Analyzer]

The INTP = genius myth strikes again.

What is a genius?

 

[WALKYRIA]

I don't believe that INTP's are genius as a whole because I personally don't know m-any...
Do you know many INTP's? And if so... what is the percentage of similarities(in terms of cognition, bahaviour,...Etc) between you and him? 80%-90%-more?

My idea is that every INTP-although not a genius- has the potential to become one if in the right environment... it's all... but again.. sample size =1..

 

[WALKYRIA]

What is a genius?

Genius has no clear definition or maybe local definition.. etymology suggest it is someone/something with ability to create things... art, theories, ideas..

That is not the direct question although why you guys focus on one word?... I'm talking about poverty and lack of adequate intellectual expression in INTPs or in others.( because intellect seems to be a socio-cultural trademark...)


And I'm new here, so I don't know about the consensus...

 

[Ex-User (9062)]

I think you know the answer to the poverty problem.
It's pretty self-evident.
And: congratulations for your aspirations.
I sincerely hope you will be able to live up to your potential,
despite your circumstances and despite other people trying to drag you down.
Your definition of the genius is also more accurate and ancient than the popular definition of genius, which has been introduced and upheld since the age of reason.

 

[WALKYRIA]

Yeah, thanx... but I would like to know if there is any correlation between poverty and INTPness ! Or perhaps, if there are other poor INTPs aspiring to get out of poverty? It seems that many people believe that if they were born poor and miserable, than they gonna stay poor and miserable. I just don't believe so, so I'd like to know if there's any successtory of poor INTP.

I think you know the answer to the poverty problem.

Am not that sure...

 

[Ex-User (9062)]

I'm pretty sure that there is no discrimination of class, when it comes to the distribution of certain personality types, or as the greeks called it, temperaments.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Temperaments
But, when it comes to attempting to realize one's ideal,
it sure can be a question of money.
In our current world, everything has a price tag attached to it.
You can have the money and lack the motivation,
and have the motivation and lack the money.
Everything in between is possible.

 

[Pyropyro]

How do you deal with poverty? Seriously? Can you seriously grow into your( "become who you are" said Nietzche) full INTP potential without the proper money ? Do you think that the expression of/ fruition of intellect in INTP is directly dependent on the quality of the upbringing(money?)?

My family already clawed our way out ourselves from poverty. It entailed lots of sacrifice from my parents. Kinda feeling guilty but at least I want to honor them somehow.

Money gives you a lot of advantages, that's why Bill Gates can afford not to go to school since he have other avenues of learning available. However, there are other factors such as good ol' fashioned hard work and networking but money is still a strong influence.

I heard that there were basically two kinda INTPs... On one hand: the high achieving/ highly intellectual/sholar/and recognized genius... And on the other hand: the unrecognized/lazy genius/underachiever/pseudo-intellectual... wa u think of diz dude?

That's a generalization. There are quite normal (and crazy) INTPs that I know too. Aloof yes, genius? not sure.

It seems that I'm trying to go from the latter to the former... but psychologically difficult/impossible? Poverty has developed Fe and Ne prematurely... you know, poor people are not supposed to behave like dicks lol(it's politically incorrect isn't it ?). I don't regret my poverty though, I learned to love it.. and I became INTP lol.

It's good that you actually developed both functions at an early age, nothing wrong with that. My experiences with depressed communities tells me that there are decent people that live under the poverty line. Don't fall in love with poverty, you have to deal with it though.

Personally, being poor and having antecedents of low achieving(in high school, mainly becoz of a mild form of depression...later things changed!)... I feel a bit like a fraud(to the professors and my family) when I somehow perform highly. And the feeling(fear to be a high achiever/ considered as an intellectual) kinda sets boundaries to my abilities.

Yeah, that's a common trap for families that are economically trying to better themselves.

I'm a totally self-educated and self-made(next year) man, and really I never thought It was as hard as it is to go from the bottom way up to the top.. It's really hard-mentally- , because you cannot hide your non-rich behavioral patterns... and rich people sense that you'r an outsider.( humility, wisdom, and a non intellectual speech pattern...)

Real mentor-quality rich people can sense potential and can distinguish empty arrogance from true confidence. It's very difficult to find/be found by them so don't mess it up. I actually involuntarily shooed one way when I was younger. Going with the normal "in" rich crowd will only bring you tears.

I am a student and I feel like my lack of socialization and aloofness is almost directly or...is partly due to poverty(If one person is interested in me, I will withdraw because my financial and time potential are very limited !!); becoz I'm self conscious about my money status... I'm poor. For instance, I can't date as well as I potentially could(since I live in a little room, and I'm not confident when I bring a girl in my lil home,nope.. It's just not how I envision a relationship with a gyal). I can't eat what I want. I can't do the cultural/intellectual activities I wish I could do. I can't offer quality stuffs to the people I love. I can't buy the books I love. I can't have a lifestyle like I would want to have . I cannot pursue my dreams. I don't meet the people I wish I could meet.( because med school as you know it is filled mainly with boring/ rich/good family TJ's and FJ's... I'm the more laid back NT) ..

Well just keep fighting for your dream to become a self-made man then

I wonder if deeply I'm not a restricted/limited ENTP(because it seems I have a certain charism, wit and aura, I'm pretty popular but in a very low key way.. but that could just be a well developed Ne-Fe)... and also wonder how I would behave if I had good money and time for myself?I feel indeed limitated by my lack of money. I doubt I would stay home all time like I do now if I had money(would be traveling and meeting plenty of intelligent people out there, starting educational blogs, starting business projects in parallel with my jobs, get involved with politics, photography, ... !)...
I think I would be more balanced between I/E and the P/J.

It doesn't matter what MBTI personality that you have. You can hone your identified functions (in this case Ne and Fe) to help you succeed.

SO INTPS: Is money a factor in your happiness? Did your happiness somehow increase when you started to earn good money?

Well I will die if I don't spend money for necessities so yes, I need it for happiness No, my happiness increases when I sense that some factors in my life "snaps into place" like religion, set of friends to keep etc.

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

How do you deal with poverty? Seriously? Can you seriously grow into your( "become who you are" said Nietzche) full INTP potential without the proper money ?

SO INTPS: Is money a factor in your happiness? Did your happiness somehow increase when you started to earn good money?

Poverty is a state of mind. It is akin IQ in being above or below some perceived standard.
You set your standard, it is yourself that understands "I don't feel good with my current standing".
Would you feel poor in a world full of millionaire INTPs, you being poorest of them?
Would you feel rich in a world of beggars, you being their king?

Money is means, nothing else, you want that and you could get that either via force, contacts, money, etc.
The only poverty i could point out is being unable to perceive what you need and how can you achieve.

 

[Trebuchet]

Poverty is a state of mind. It is akin IQ in being above or below some perceived standard.
You set your standard, it is yourself that understands "I don't feel good with my current standing".

No. Just no. I have never been poor, but my dad was. I am keenly aware of my privilege. I am not ashamed of it, just aware.

John Scalzi (author of many excellent SF books) explained what being poor is, which he knows because he was poor and isn't now, and you should read it because you clearly have no clue. http://whatever.scalzi.com/2005/09/03/being-poor/

A small excerpt:
Being poor is people surprised to discover you’re not actually stupid.

Being poor is people surprised to discover you’re not actually lazy.

Being poor is a six-hour wait in an emergency room with a sick child asleep on your lap.

Being poor is never buying anything someone else hasn’t bought first.

Being poor is picking the 10 cent ramen instead of the 12 cent ramen because that’s two extra packages for every dollar.

Being poor is having to live with choices you didn’t know you made when you were 14 years old.

Being poor is getting tired of people wanting you to be grateful.

Being poor is knowing you’re being judged.
​

In response to the OP, being poor certainly doesn't help, but it doesn't define you either. I don't expect it is correlated with being INTP, but both being poor and INTP are correlated with feeling like outsiders and imposters. You aren't fake.

You might enjoy reading High Price by Dr. Carl Hart, which is about drugs and science, but also about a smart guy who started poor and felt like an outsider in both academia and his own home. Fascinating, page-turner of a book, heartbreakingly personal, and yet hopeful as well. Best of luck to you.

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

No. Just no.

A small excerpt:
Being poor is people surprised to discover you’re not actually stupid.

Being poor is people surprised to discover you’re not actually lazy.

Being poor is a six-hour wait in an emergency room with a sick child asleep on your lap.

Being poor is never buying anything someone else hasn’t bought first.

Being poor is picking the 10 cent ramen instead of the 12 cent ramen because that’s two extra packages for every dollar.

Being poor is having to live with choices you didn’t know you made when you were 14 years old.

Being poor is getting tired of people wanting you to be grateful.

Being poor is knowing you’re being judged.
​

Yes, because no. You set your standard to other people. You set your standard to 12 cent ramen, helplessness, pity, being judged.
You feel poverty as you do not meet above standard. You are in a state of mind of being poor. You lack means to change your standing. Therefore you are poor.

If you lack means, you are poor. Usually there comes a set of norms and standard means imposed on the society.

(edit : )
I dont want it to sound detached: There is a left side of the curve that will suffer, that doesn't have what the model gives.
I respect self-sacrifice, suffering, pain. We feel.

 

[rushgirl2112]

Poverty is a state of mind. It is akin IQ in being above or below some perceived standard.
You set your standard, it is yourself that understands "I don't feel good with my current standing".
Would you feel poor in a world full of millionaire INTPs, you being poorest of them?
Would you feel rich in a world of beggars, you being their king?

Money is means, nothing else, you want that and you could get that either via force, contacts, money, etc.
The only poverty i could point out is being unable to perceive what you need and how can you achieve.

That's over-intellectualizing what poverty actually is to people who are in it (raises hand).

Poverty isn't just about not having things up to a perceived standard. It's having to decide which NEEDS you're going to have to do without. That's not a state of mind - it's a harsh reality.

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

Spoiler

That's over-intellectualizing what poverty actually is to people who are in it (raises hand).

Poverty isn't just about not having things up to a perceived standard. It's having to decide which NEEDS you're going to have to do without. That's not a state of mind - it's a harsh reality.

Did you read my previous post? It might seem like intellectualizing if you focus too much on this one post.

Side note: Not having something you want and having to decide what you cannot have is the same thing.

Also yes i described poverty as lack of means to fulfill desire. This is in agreement with what you just said.

Looking at things from perspective is helpful, gets you to the core of the problem.

 

[soundstrider]

You say you are worried about 'performing highly' and that your economic situation will prevent you from this.
Now by 'performing highly' you must be reffering to either your own internal assesment of whether or not you have fulfilled your potential or whether in the eyes of others you become respected and valued.
In both cases your fears are completely unfounded.
I say this because I come from an economically privilged background and I can assure you that I am at least AS troubled by those same two issues as you are, perhaps even moreso.
For the internal assesment this is entirely dependant on criteria that you create for yourself and so no matter what your external situation (even a prisoner in a concentration camp) you can still achieve internal satisfaction by knowing that you ''did the best you could''.
As for the praise of others beleive me when I say you've got it easy. When you start with nothing even the smallest achievements are lauded by the community, who doesn't feel a measure of respect for the former drug addict who gets clean and opens a succesful corner store? On the other hand, for someone with my upbringing, the expectations are enormous! (It would probably be considered an insult to many people if I decided I wanted to settle down and run a corner store). The richer/more priviledged you are the worse it gets, society is always incencsed by the wealthy heir who squanders his fathers hard earned millions.
On top of that you should realise that your poor upbriging has also given you some extremely valuable techniques for dealing with the world, over the course of many interactions I've come to detect an undeniable strength and capacity which only comes from having been forced to fend for yourself from an early age. On the contrary I know many smart individuals from priviledged upbringings who never escape the comfort of the nest and end up having extremeley limited and boring lives barely fulfilling any of their potential.
Work with the cards your dealt, not against them, theres just as much knowledge, laughter, love and esteeem available to everyone if you know where to look.

 

[Ex-User (9062)]

Spoiler

You say you are worried about 'performing highly' and that your economic situation will prevent you from this.
Now by 'performing highly' you must be reffering to either your own internal assesment of whether or not you have fulfilled your potential or whether in the eyes of others you become respected and valued.
In both cases your fears are completely unfounded.
I say this because I come from an economically privilged background and I can assure you that I am at least AS troubled by those same two issues as you are, perhaps even moreso.
For the internal assesment this is entirely dependant on criteria that you create for yourself and so no matter what your external situation (even a prisoner in a concentration camp) you can still achieve internal satisfaction by knowing that you ''did the best you could''.
As for the praise of others beleive me when I say you've got it easy. When you start with nothing even the smallest achievements are lauded by the community, who doesn't feel a measure of respect for the former drug addict who gets clean and opens a succesful corner store? On the other hand, for someone with my upbringing, the expectations are enormous! (It would probably be considered an insult to many people if I decided I wanted to settle down and run a corner store). The richer/more priviledged you are the worse it gets, society is always incencsed by the wealthy heir who squanders his fathers hard earned millions.
On top of that you should realise that your poor upbriging has also given you some extremely valuable techniques for dealing with the world, over the course of many interactions I've come to detect an undeniable strength and capacity which only comes from having been forced to fend for yourself from an early age. On the contrary I know many smart individuals from priviledged upbringings who never escape the comfort of the nest and end up having extremeley limited and boring lives barely fulfilling any of their potential.
Work with the cards your dealt, not against them, theres just as much knowledge, laughter, love and esteeem available to everyone if you know where to look.

Thanks for showing us the other side of the coin.
I agree, wealth has its own traps and snares.

 

[Prometheus]

Growing up in poverty (well as poor as you can in the US) there is quite a bridge you have to gap between your peers. Your ability can only take you so far, as an example I got a computer during my junior year in high school. My parents grew up as farmers, so I couldn't look up to them for learning much of anything worthwhile. My discoveries that I relayed to them was met with a puzzled look followed by a simple nod. There was never any challenge or anyone to help foster my growth. So it just basically was up to me to ensure my own success.

Then again, as I have learned... things can get worse

 

[IfloatTHRUlife]

From personal experience i would say money has nothing to do with "genius" in itself, rather the way it is expressed. I come from a poor family, and lived a very minimalist life. I had a computer but that was basically my only outlet to the world around me. I participated in no school activities, had no interest in school or the people there. I was always considered "smart", was recognized by my teachers who saw my grades on tests despite my frequent absences and lack of participation in classes or homework. Also by the friends close enough to have experienced being around me enough to understand me.

Long story short, i had no great interest in travel etc when i was younger but as i have grown, my girlfriend has made me realize what i have been missing. Since i have been with her i have moved from my tiny hometown to a completely different atmosphere, riddled with so many different cultures and attitudes that i am not used to. I previously had no interest in outwardly expressing my intelligence until now, since it would benefit me and help me advance in life. The problem is, nobody really respects the kind of intelligence that an intp provides, constant unfiltered logic can be amusing, but wit only gets you but so far. Beyond that, most people dont care if you are intelligent if you dont have some form of credentials. Either money to wave in their face and impress them into thinking that you are someone important, or some extensive education that intimidates them into believing you are some genius.

End of the day, the things you aspire to will be fulfilling, but no amount of photography or travel is going to make you a "genius". Being genius is relative. Would Isaac Newton's intelligence have been denied if people had thought by todays standards and he hadn't been to see the latest show on broadway??

Oh and might i add..

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!

 

[redbaron]

How old are you Blarraun?

 

[WALKYRIA]

The problem with poverty is that your poor parents don't teach you how to behave in a way to become rich. I have remarked that rich kids tend to act in a way that maintains their money up.... They work hard, have more discipline, more assertive, more down to earth and boring, are less empathetic, don't care very much about the poor people and povery in the world, are less socialist...Etc All the behaviours necesssary to be rich. Truth is that becoming rich when one is morally inferior is not difficult.


Anyways, poverty is a serious hindrace in life since you miss a lot of opportunities ... meh.. I'm bored by the way !

 

[Cherry Cola]

For Blaurran: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty

>.< Srsly, unless you are born an ubermensch poverty will effect you and you wont be able to do shit about it, and it doesn't matter what type of poverty were talking. Even living in poverty in Norway will render you at a disadvantage even though you wont come close to starving because guess what: social stuff.

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

How old are you Blarraun?

Why would age be a denominator of my intellectual/emotional/factual development?
How old are you to ask me my age?
I did provide it somewhere.

For Blaurran: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty

>.< Srsly, unless you are born an ubermensch poverty will effect you and you wont be able to do shit about it, and it doesn't matter what type of poverty were talking. Even living in poverty in Norway will render you at a disadvantage even though you wont come close to starving because guess what: social stuff.

Did you read my posts? I was and am affected by poverty in my country. I do not deny it, I redefined it for the purpose of showing the mechanism

You will feel poor if there is something you lack, it depends on people and their needs and not on the social norm.

People are different and have varying needs that cannot be put to some estimated rich/poor median.


How would you view a situation I have already presented?

1.Would you feel poor being poorest in the realm of kings?
2.Would you feel rich being richest in the realm of beggars?

1:By the common average you would feel poor as you would be below the average.
2:You would feel wealthy, above average.

What do I propose?
1:You would still feel quite content and you would be able to satisfy most of your desires
2: You would still be unable to satisfy your needs and you would feel poor.

 

[Cherry Cola]

The fact that what qualifies (or is viewed) as poverty varies with context does not make poverty a state of mind tho.

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

The fact that what qualifies (or is viewed) as poverty varies with context does not make poverty a state of mind tho.

Yes, I cannot guarantee the quality of my thought at all times.
I grow every day and I don't edit my old posts as they are my old self. I might have put that differently today.

I think it can be understood. If not I could delete my old posts and mistakes. I think it helps understand myself from my perspective and it may help others, that I am uncertain of.

 

[airius]

Dude,, we have similar situation here. I know exactly what you feel.
I am last year med student. I've been always in top 1% poorest people in my college. I grow up in poverty with my single mother. She give everything she have to raise me. My parents divorce when I was 10 yo. I do everything by myself. Even I can't do any sports, any.
It is psychologically difficult for me to make any romantic relationship. and the reason is just exactly same with you dude. Even when there is person who interest in me, I look back into my life and realise that I can't,,, because I'm poor.
I feel like an outsider when I socialize with people. Again it is limitated by money.

Dude, I think poverty is the obstacle of our effort to express full potential of intellect. I feel I can do something, but I can't because of that. People with money has ruin my potency, my dream.

If you already have any solution on how to improve the situation, please tell me. I'm so suffering because of this.