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Non-USA Multivitamins?

Inexorable Username

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I think I'm going to start taking a multi-vitamin again, but I'm interested in multi-vitamins from overseas.

We have a big problem in the US with multi-vitamins because they're completely unregulated, and there's always a need fad here to stimulate the production of cheaply manufactured vitamins with poor ingredients, inaccurate labels, and potential contaminations. The multi-vitamin market here is just far too lucrative and far too easy to get into to be trusted.

Anyone know of a good multi-vitamin company from EU?
 

Serac

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Ive bought quite a lot of vitamins from Solgar over the years but they happen to be American lol
 

Marbles

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10 years ago, Solaray was often recommended by people in health care. Another American company, though... I think longitudinal studies show little benefit from multivitamin, so I'd consider having a check up to see if you have low levels of anything. Specifically carotenoids (Lutein and Zeaxanthin), vitamin B and D.

Everyone is an expert, these days. I'm sorry to force yet another opinion on you...

I haven't read this, but perhaps you will find it useful:
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20161208-why-vitamin-supplements-could-kill-you
 

Rebis

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Does anyone recall the vitamin company that actually caused the deaths of 10 or so people from a contaminant?
 

Serac

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To echo Marbles, I think taking multivitamins is pretty useless unless it’s some compound which is hard or impossible to get from foods. Most vitamins need other compounds to be absorbed, especially fat-soluble ones, so getting them through foods with a lot of micronutrients (eg fish eggs) is much better.

I usually only take stuff like root extracts in pill form since I don’t have the time to gather and process roots on my own
 

Marbles

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To echo Marbles, I think taking multivitamins is pretty useless unless it’s some compound which is hard or impossible to get from foods. Most vitamins need other compounds to be absorbed, especially fat-soluble ones, so getting them through foods with a lot of micronutrients (eg fish eggs) is much better.

I usually only take stuff like root extracts in pill form since I don’t have the time to gather and process roots on my own
Do carrots count? Simply wash a bunch of them, drop them in a bowl of water and put them in the fridge. Eat them with the peel (buy ecological if you are worried about pesticides). Very convenient. Pretty much the only vegetable I eat enough of.
 

Inexorable Username

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So...

I’m pretty familiar with the literature against multi-vitamins. They’re laughed at by the medical industry in America. It’s one of the reasons I stopped taking them.

From my own personal experience, though, they really do seem to make a difference. I’ve gone through phases of multivitamin use due to the scorn they receive from medical sciences - but, they seem to make a difference for me, and I’ve read enough to develop some philosophies about it...but I really don’t want to share them. >_> I feel like people will immediately jump on me like a pack of wolves and shout me down...lol.

Anyways, I don’t usually continuously buy multivitamins because I eat a pretty healthy/balanced diet with a lot of fruit and vegetables. When I do get them, I usually just finish out the bottle and I often don’t take the suggested dose. But I like to be selective about my sources and although I liked my vitamins last time, I also try each time to find better ones, if I can.
 

Inexorable Username

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I drink carrot juice - I know. Not the best. Doesn’t contain the peel, but for someone that has my kind of lifestyle, it’s more convenient. I typically have a 4 ounce glass of some kind of juice in the morning or, more commonly, a grapefruit.

Starting with a grapefruit is my favorite way to start the day. It gives me a lot of energy for some weird reason and it supersets my appetite. If I eat anything else in the morning, it makes me hungry later.
 

Marbles

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Have you checked to see if you have any deficiencies when you don't take vitamins? Iron is another big one for women. I'm not trying to disprove your need for multivitamins, but it could be they have fixed a specific deficiency in the past, which would be good to pinpoint.

I only eat carrot peel for convenience :P
 

Inexorable Username

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Have you checked to see if you have any deficiencies when you don't take vitamins? Iron is another big one for women. I'm not trying to disprove your need for multivitamins, but it could be they have fixed a specific deficiency in the past, which would be good to pinpoint.

I only eat carrot peel for convenience :P
I do need to get a blood panel soon, just because they're a good thing to have. Blood panels aren't very good at detecting vitamins and minerals though. There's relatively few that they can actually detect, and then there's issues when it comes to interpreting that data. Nutrition is so complex. I would have to go to a nutritionist and have a number of interviews with them to really get down to the nitty-gritty. Nutritionists do have their time and place, and if my startup takes off I will probably get one, but...not at the moment. I feel like their usefulness is niche.

Anyways! I have to go, because I have to work!

If anyone knows of a good multi-vitamin that isn't produced in the USA, let me know!
 

Marbles

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Fair enough, you're certainly right that blood panels have limited use. Magnesium levels in the blood correlate poorly with muscle levels, for instance. Still, I think most substances in multivitamins can be detected by your doctor with reasonable precision, so you have a decent chance of revealing a deficiency remedied by multivitamins. If you want to run the pareto approach to your health until you have the chance to see that nutritionist (do they really have better tests? Perhaps I should visit one). I eat like a pig, so take my suggestions with a pinch of salt. Not too much, though. It is bad for your blood pressure.
 

Rebis

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Glucose is necessary in any vitamin stack, it is just too rare to extract from a normal diet
 

Marbles

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Glucose is necessary in any vitamin stack, it is just too rare to extract from a normal diet
Yes, but it is preferable to get your trans-fat from natural sources. Dadadumdumdum, I'm lovin' it. You flipping big macs is like a republican working at an abortion clinic.
 

Adaire

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Why don't you try labdoor or another independent organization that tests for contaminants and the accuracy of product labels. There are a few.
 

washti

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You can always ditch suplements (esp multivitamins) for otc drugs. they are regulated cause well they are drugs.

I tested witamin D3 lately (was taking combo of vegan suplement 4000 UI and cod oil 2000 UI)
I got petty result of 36,6 norm being 30 - 80. Now i'm taking otc drops 7000 and will retest in 3 months.

after another vegan/vegetarian experiment my ferritin level is lowering rapidly from 54 to 11,2. That's bad.
So despite the rest 'anemic' parameters being very good I'm on red meat now.
I won't take iron suplement, which guarantee nothing and is often gut tract irritant.

Bad newsalso is fact that ferritin rebuilds slowly and next testing make sense after 6 months. A bit angry on myself for not testing sooner. Ehh.

So mediterrian diet full blown. apparently my attempts to make it better than oryginal failed.
 

Marbles

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If you're iron deficient, maybe use an iron pot? Or would that also irritate the gut?
 

washti

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iron is fine. I'm technically no deficient yet. What I don't like is not being optimal.
4799


+ I have 14,8 hemoglobin. No doctor will tell I'm deficient.
Yeah I read about pans, tho they have con of bein no no-stick. actually curious how much i would absorb from it.
 

Rebis

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Ok, fill me in. I don't take these tests.

How much do they cost, how easy are they to get and what systems do you monitor/reguate from blood tests?
 

Marbles

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Weird, I thought low ferritin means low iron.

@Rebis They are free in Norway, I think you'd get one the cheapest fron your GP. I dont think you could do one online?
 

Rebis

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Maybe not for your petty micro-usb, USB-C is universal kid.
 

Marbles

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Haha, universal bodysystem bus? We should see if there is simply a questionaire we can do online. Technology is womderful these days.
 

washti

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idk how much they cost in uk.

in poland you buy them in labs like this one:

best option being in package. like 'planing pregnancy', 'active', vegan; etc
you can have discount for having card/app - it's just normal product

since i don't have much money I go to family doc two times a year and national health system is covering tests. Tho refunded blood tests are really limited.

So I do extras - lipid profile, hormon blood tests, liver, kidney, inuslin + glucose. I do some tests almost every month. It;s such a joy to feel needle in my elbow. vaccines are the best

all my family are sick fucks, so i ended a bit hypochondrial.

@Marbles in a way it is. ferritin is protein storing iron in cells and freeing it when body needs it. Iron it's just iron in blood. both are important
 

Inexorable Username

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I knew posting this here would be interesting and I’m not disappointed!
So much cool stuff to look up! Thanks guys!

I’ve heard heavy metals (iron) can build up more in males due to the fact that you don’t have to replace blood lost from a menstral cycle. Not sure if that is true or not. I suppose if you get into violent, bloody fights often enough it could even out? Something to put on your to-do list.

@Adaire I tried Labdoor! They have so few products...There’s a couple of certifications I’ve been looking at.

@washti Well - at the moment I’m not really looking to target a single vitamin. I’m trying to get a better balance going insofar as vitamin ingestion is concerned...if that makes any sense. I don’t like to overdue it too much on any one particular vitamin unless I’m positive I’m deficient in that specific one - and usually, even then...it’s complicated. I usually need to find a balance with a couple of other vitamins.

That’s where real sources come in handy, as they tend to have the right balance needed for absorption and such - but I feel like my system is just a bit off these days. Not at peak performance. Despite my fairly healthy diet.

It’s winter. A lot of berries and fruits are out of season. There’s not much as far as fish goes. (Which I’m ordering oil for). I’m for sure not getting enough D or enough Calcium, and I think I might be lacking Vitamin A or K. Sort of hard to tell. I’m probably lacking a bit in the vitamin B department as well. Overall vitamin deficiency.

@Marbles
No, Nutritionists don’t have better tests. They just care more, and have more time. Doctors, at least here in the USA (in my experience) are best for identifying specific issues. Like - “my pee is black. Diagnose me doc!”
They generally have very little time to sit around and discuss your diet, health habits, and minor, vague symptoms. Here, they are trained to treat ailments and prescribe drugs. While they can give general health advice, it’s pretty dumb and basic - I find. Like “Drink more water. Sleep. Exercise. Eat healthy. Get some sun.”

Nutritionists are more for “Oh...I see you have itchy toes at night, your sweat smells funny, and your hair is thinning....Due to this collection of symptoms and your lifestyle you are probably lacking in XYZ”....
They’re good at tailoring their advice to you as an individual. Not you as a statistic, or you as a generic adult white male human of average height and weight.

Thanks for the responses! I’ll be back again later to respond to more!
 

Marbles

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all my family are sick fucks, so i ended a bit hypochondrial.
You're making me a hypochondriac, too. Ive struggled a lot with depression for a decade. I wonder what tests would be relevant to that.

@Inexorable Username that makes sense, I've missed someone to speculate and run some experiments with. Thanks for the advice.
 

Inexorable Username

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Ok, fill me in. I don't take these tests.

How much do they cost, how easy are they to get and what systems do you monitor/reguate from blood tests?
Blood tests are mostly to show early signs of infections, viruses, diseases, or abnormal organ function. They can test lipids, white/red blood cell counts, blood glucose...they check for thyroid function/adrenals.

If you have something medically wrong with you that would need to be diagnosed - blood tests are the way to go.

If, however, you’ve got a bit of a nutritional imbalance - like, let’s say you have a small increase in hair loss as well as dry brittle nails, a bit of fatigue, and you’re bruising a little more easily - but there’s nothing overtly “symptom-like” you would describe as being wrong with you (like colorful poop), then...I personally feel they aren’t worth it. Unless a doctor recommends it for a specific reason.
 

washti

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the only reasonable way is to test for deficiencies you suspect to have and change diet/supplement and then retest.
In other cases you are just guessing.

I'm against multivitamin simply because every one i took I have to vomit affter 10 minuts.
Targeting single one have more sense. also as Serac said vitamins are bound to certain macros. For me its like wanting gold and then digging trough all Mendeleev's table.
 

Marbles

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If, however, you’ve got a bit of a nutritional imbalance - like, let’s say you have a small increase in hair loss as well as dry brittle nails, a bit of fatigue, and you’re bruising a little more easily - but there’s nothing overtly “symptom-like” you would describe as being wrong with you (like colorful poop), then...I personally feel they aren’t worth it. Unless a doctor recommends it for a specific reason.
-Hey, Doc, I'm shiting rainbows!
-Ease a little on the carrots, and don't whipe so hard.
 

scorpiomover

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Ive struggled a lot with depression for a decade. I wonder what tests would be relevant to that.
Vitamin B deficiency is linked to mental illness.

Also, low levels of serotonin (Hence SSRIs = Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors being used to increase levels of Serotonin and being used to (partially) treat anxiety and depression.
 

scorpiomover

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I'm against multivitamin simply because every one i took I have to vomit affter 10 minuts.
That's some seriously weird sh*t.
 

washti

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actually it's perfectly normal. if you take substance constituting of +30 elements( and some of them you are definitely not deficient) your body will throw it out. It's like eating spoiled food.
 

Marbles

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Ive struggled a lot with depression for a decade. I wonder what tests would be relevant to that.
Vitamin B deficiency is linked to mental illness.

Also, low levels of serotonin (Hence SSRIs = Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors being used to increase levels of Serotonin and being used to (partially) treat anxiety and depression.
Thanks for the advice. I have tried SSRIs, but I'm a carrier of the 5httlpr s/s allele, so they are ineffective. I don't seem to be deficient in serotonin. Possibly dopamine or GABA. I'm using Lamictal right now, which increases GABA and seems to have effect. I'll look into vitamin B. I don't think I have a "gobal" deficiency, but there are many vitamin Bs? Maybe Im lacking in one of them.

You practically know my genome, now. I'mma get doxed :,(
 

scorpiomover

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but there are many vitamin Bs? Maybe Im lacking in one of them.
There are several:
  • Thiamin (vitamin B1)
  • Riboflavin (vitamin B2)
  • Niacin (vitamin B3)
  • Pantothenic acid
  • Vitamin B6
  • Biotin (vitamin B7)
  • Folate and Folic acid
  • Vitamin B12
You practically know my genome, now.
Then I should be able to clone you, like Arnold Schwarzenegger in The 6th Day.
 

Marbles

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Soon your profile picture will change to my face. That is some hardcore doxing. Just promise to treat my clone nicely. Remember, he is right half the time. Or do we have to split our vetos? Dude... You could totally inflate my opinions if you made enough clones.
 

Rebis

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B vitamins are pretty abundant, I would factor in how to metabolize the b vitamins you suspect yourself to be deficient of.

Sent from my VOG-L09 using Tapatalk
 

Rebis

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Cali weed is good, not to be confused with california weed.
 

Rebis

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The good shit, man. You either know it or you don't, punkass tophat cat.
 

Adaire

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I’m for sure not getting enough D or enough Calcium
You can get vit d from sunlight too. Unless they are post-menopause, most people in the US get enough calcium. The most common deficiency in America is magnesium. Getting too much calcium, and not enough of nutrients (including but not limited to Magnesium) that help the body absorb it can spell issues with heart disease, by causing the calcification of soft tissue (atherosclerosis). So if I were you I'd make a point in getting my calcium from food sources and not from supplements. If you must supplement, do so with a stack with at least magnesium and D3 and make sure you're getting enough K (most green vegetables) Side note: a lot of antacids, like tums, contain a shit load of calcium, so if you use those daily that could be super bad over time.

I'm against multivitamin simply because every one i took I have to vomit affter 10 minuts.
That's probably the iron. Any sort of iron supplement is notoriously hard on the stomach. So you might be able to do a multi-vitamin that specifically leaves iron out. Pretty much all multivitamins labeled for women are gonna have a lot of iron.

The best advice of course, is to thoroughly research everything you take daily and pay close attention to how your body reacts to it and keep your ear to the ground for new research. This holds true for prescription medications too.

Also specifically at IU... birth control. It's bullshit. It will fuck you up and the issues with them are majorly downplayed. If there's something mysteriously causing you major ills and you've recently started a hormonal birth control or worse have been taking them since you were 15 and have no idea what your body is like without them; well that's where I'd put my money on the problem being.
 

Rebis

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I’m for sure not getting enough D or enough Calcium
You can get vit d from sunlight too. Unless they are post-menopause, most people in the US get enough calcium. The most common deficiency in America is magnesium. Getting too much calcium, and not enough of nutrients (including but not limited to Magnesium) that help the body absorb it can spell issues with heart disease, by causing the calcification of soft tissue (atherosclerosis). So if I were you I'd make a point in getting my calcium from food sources and not from supplements. If you must supplement, do so with a stack with at least magnesium and D3 and make sure you're getting enough K (most green vegetables) Side note: a lot of antacids, like tums, contain a shit load of calcium, so if you use those daily that could be super bad over time.

I'm against multivitamin simply because every one i took I have to vomit affter 10 minuts.
That's probably the iron. Any sort of iron supplement is notoriously hard on the stomach. So you might be able to do a multi-vitamin that specifically leaves iron out. Pretty much all multivitamins labeled for women are gonna have a lot of iron.

The best advice of course, is to thoroughly research everything you take daily and pay close attention to how your body reacts to it and keep your ear to the ground for new research. This holds true for prescription medications too.

Also specifically at IU... birth control. It's bullshit. It will fuck you up and the issues with them are majorly downplayed. If there's something mysteriously causing you major ills and you've recently started a hormonal birth control or worse have been taking them since you were 15 and have no idea what your body is like without them; well that's where I'd put my money on the problem being.
I personally take vitamin d3 instead of normal synthesis in the skin for a few reasons:
-Lack of vitamin D absorption in the country I reside in
-Moisturiser prevents this absorption with UV protection
- Absorption through this method ages the skin

Sources of vitamin D3 is extracted from sheeps in the highlands/mountain areas.
 

Inexorable Username

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@washti
Multivitamins cause people to vomit for different reasons, but it has nothing to do with the number of vitamins/minerals.
Taking one specific thing is often a problem in and of itself because of the balance needed with nutrients. Even if you’re deficient in magnesium, taking just magnesium can cause other problems and still fail to address your deficiency.

The best advice of course, is to thoroughly research everything you take daily and pay close attention to how your body reacts to it and keep your ear to the ground for new research. This holds true for prescription medications too.
This is generally my way of doing things. I agree wholeheartedly with this approach.
Particularly because I find that a lot of health professionals don’t keep up to date.

Your research and my research on calcium conflict though. I’ve read that most women in the USA probably get far below what they actually need for calcium - one of the reasons osteoporosis is such a problem for elderly women in this country. I’ve also read, and had a few medical opinions from professionals, that it’s quite difficult to get too much calcium to where it would be damaging to you - possible, obviously, and particularly if your taking multiple supplements which all include calcium, but not easy to do aside from that. Calcium also has a major role in the body to include brain function, muscle function, and so forth. If at some point I have the time for it, and I remember, I’ll dig up some of the studies I read about how the RDA for calcium is potentially far below what women should be getting, and how most women in the USA appear to not even get enough to meet the RDA. (At least, at the time of this study they didn’t)

——

One of the issues that’s seldom considered is the quality of the food we eat here in the USA. It’s pretty pitsy.

Fruit is artificially ripened when sold in the supermarket, so it often has way less of the vitamins/nutrients you think you’re getting. The amino acid balance found in meat is affected by the way the cattle is fed. There’s just a lot of ways that corners are cut when it comes to the quality of what we’re eating in this country. So in theory, although you can look up some good stats for what should be in the strawberries you’re eating - you’re probably not actually getting that value unless you grew them yourself in fertile souls in the summertime.

Other issues with nutrients are just things that people don’t know about. About two or three days after you open a carton of juice, many of the vitamins have already broken down - apparently. It’s the same thing with nutrients in dog food - it’s affected by shelf life and exposure to heat and air and such.

It’s not quite as easy to get all of the nutrients you regularly need as people think - in the USA, at least. On paper, it looks like it should be easier than it is. That may be one of the reasons our country is so dependent on pharmaceuticals and why we have so many health problems....who knows.

There’s also a lot of water contamination from things like pharmaceutical medications and what not.

In any case, there’s a big difference when comparing nutritional strategies in the USA to those in countries like Norway.

Personally, I think that occasionally taking multi-vitamins here is a good strategy. While medical professionals may get up-in-arms about it due to the potential of there being contaminates, and articles may write click bait about them being “useless” - there is a mountain of evidence contradicting that. That opinion, really, is just medical hype that’s pushed out to “stop stupid people from hurting themselves”. It’s the same sort of philosophy harped on by medical professionals to discourage people from researching their own symptoms. The logic is - some people are stupid. Some people could get hurt. Therefore, make it illegal not to wear your seatbelt, because we have to lower our standards and expectations to suit the lowest common denominator.

I think that people should be proactive about their health. A well-educated, well-read person who is knowledgable about health is a real asset to their body - much moreso than 15 minutes of a doctor’s time twice a year.
 

Adaire

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Well from what I understand, calcium is only for an issue for women post-menopause when estrogen falls, since that causes bone loss.
 

Inexorable Username

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I mean...Menopause starts around age 50 or so - so that’s about half of a woman’s life. So that’s actually a substantial part of a person’s life.

However, it’s also an issue for women when they are pregnant. Women usually start getting pregnant around 25 or so. It’s also an issue for women who are breastfeeding...It’s an issue for women who are taking birth control.

When you have periods of low calcium you lose bone density. That bone density then has to recuperate after the fact. So you can see why a depletion of calcium may be an issue when it comes to recovering from periods where you have been deficient in calcium. Over time, if you continue to be deficient, it can take longer and longer for your bone density to improve.

So let’s say that you are a normal person with a normal diet, getting 100% of your RDA of calcium. Then you start taking birth control in college, then you get pregnant, then you’re breast feeding, then you get pregnant and breastfeed again, then perhaps you have a poor diet for a while because you’re a new mom rushing all over the place, and then you have x number of years to recoup after menopause.

That’s assuming you went into the equation with a healthy diet, getting plenty of calcium. Some studies suggest that most women aren’t getting their RDA of calcium.

Anyways - none of this is to be taken as gospel. This is just my “overall perspective” based on studies I’ve read throughout the years. I might be missing the mark on some of it - or even most of it! But that’s where I’m coming from when I voice opinions like women probably aren’t getting enough calcium.

The other issue with calcium is how little we seek to appreciate its importance. Calcium depletion has been linked to higher levels of lead in pregnancy, I think, and lower IQs in children (either from pregnancy or low levels of calcium during breast feeding, I don’t remember). It plays an important role in the brain, and in muscle health- quite a few bodily systems. The only thing we really seem to give it credit for is bones and teeth - but the impact of calcium is much more wide reaching than that.

Sorry I don’t have any studies for you at the moment. Like I said, I’ll try to remember to get some. I’m on my phone at the moment.
 
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