# Ni or Ne ?

#### DIALECTIC

##### Active Member
Hello ! What type of intuition is it (Ni or Ne ?) when from a couple of apparently meangingless details, you instinctively / intuitively know the type of someone you pretty much just met, and later just to be sure you ask him to do the MBTI test and he happens to be that very type ?

Is it pattern recognition ? Statistical probability ? Or just luck ?

PS: FYI he happens to be an INTP too but a lot younger than me...

#### Architect

##### Professional INTP
Probably Ne which is obviously an extraverted function. It is an external fact and possibility gatherer/synthesizer which is your example.

Ni finds possibilities but they are more nebulous and it works better when finding possibilities on an already laid out course in my experience.

#### DIALECTIC

##### Active Member
Probably Ne which is obviously an extraverted function. It is an external fact and possibility gatherer/synthesizer which is your example.

Ni finds possibilities but they are more nebulous and it works better when finding possibilities on an already laid out course in my experience.
Thank you !

So Ne is inductive reasoning (from particular / details to universal / whole) and Ni is analytic reasoning (from universal / whole to particular) ?

Can we generalize and say that all introverted functions are more "mature", immanent, timed based and analytic... While all extroverted functions are more "immature", transcendent, space based and synthetic ?

#### Architect

##### Professional INTP
So Ne is inductive reasoning (from particular / details to universal / whole) and Ni is analytic reasoning (from universal / whole to particular) ?
Not sure about that. N & S relate to information gathering rather more than reasoning. Si for example is about previous/past factual information, Se is about present here-and-now factual information. Ne & Ni are more about present and future possible facts and information. Reasoning and relationship come from somewhere else generally.

Can we generalize and say that all introverted functions are more "mature", immanent, timed based and analytic... While all extroverted functions are more "immature", transcendent, space based and synthetic ?
Hmm, no, not that I can see.

#### Cherry Cola

##### Banned
Probably Ne which is obviously an extraverted function. It is an external fact and possibility gatherer/synthesizer which is your example.

Ni finds possibilities but they are more nebulous and it works better when finding possibilities on an already laid out course in my experience.
Isn't humanity a typical such course for an INFJ? Isn't there a lot that is something of a laid out course? Ni is pretty good at taking a lot of stuff into account once it's known. At a certain point it becomes pretty quick and accurate because it can apply so many things at once into forming an impression. Thus making them pretty quick but albeit less accurate typers. Works best IRL perhaps? Ni also adds a sense of belief in ones intuitions, especially if the dominant.

I think the OP should remember that unless you've really tested your intuitions by closer examination and testing of the person then they shouldn't be trusted. A vast majority, me included, aren't really that accurate at first glance typing, despite Ni or Ne.

#### BigApplePi

##### Banned
Go with what Architect said in both replies. Let's see if anything can be added?
What type of intuition is it (Ni or Ne ?) when from a couple of apparently meangingless details, you instinctively / intuitively know the type of someone you pretty much just met, and later just to be sure you ask him to do the MBTI test and he happens to be that very type ?

Is it pattern recognition ? Statistical probability ? Or just luck ?

PS: FYI he happens to be an INTP too but a lot younger than me...
To do this you have to know something about the type you are concluding about. That type is defined "out there" (Ne/Se) but was derived from a consensus of social intuition (group Ni sort of). You have your own internal Ni about this type but look at the Ne out there. Both are involved. I would say pattern recognition is involved in your brain. Since induction is involved and induction will err, statistical probability is present.

To put all this into a coherent theory, taking into account induction, deduction, personal and collective theories would be something to strive for.

#### BigApplePi

##### Banned
unless you've really tested your intuitions by closer examination and testing of the person then they shouldn't be trusted.
Absolutely. Ni's past experience and close present observation count to make future predictions.

#### DIALECTIC

##### Active Member
Ni finds possibilities but they are more nebulous and it works better when finding possibilities on an already laid out course in my experience.
Ne being objective and Ni being subjective... Would it be "Ni" then when say i read a portion of Nietzsche's Ecce Homo and i instantly / intuitively recognize myself also in what i read...?

Also it seems to me Ne is more indeterminate / probabilistic while Ni is more determinate / possibilistic.

Ni seems to me a lot more accurate than Ne in coming to conclusions... That's why i said earlier introverted functions seem to me a lot more "mature" than extroverted functions... Probably cos introverted functions don't "do" anything on their own (they'd rather think, ad infinitum, about what needs to be done) as they rely on their associated extroverted function to do their "dirty work":

"It is not the general idea that is implicated in opposition and combat, and that is exposed to danger. It remains in the background, untouched and uninjured. This may be called the cunning of reason, – that it sets the passions to work for itself, while that which develops its existence through such impulsion pays the penalty and suffers loss." HEGEL

#### John_Mann

##### Active Member
Well, I think it's Ni. Because It's a dynamic situation. If you just had met a person, firstly you'll use Se to gather present and new information about the person. When you have a bunch of present information (Se) the Ni will "collapse the wave function" into a steady "hunch". Ni it's very very fast, Ne it's more slowly and are associated (fed) with Si (the INTP's tertiary function).

In that case you could only use Si after you leave the situation, and you'll start to use Si by comparing the traits of the new people with previously known people.

Ne it's more "slowly" compared to Ni (the cause of "laziness" in INTP's). We use the pair Se-Ni when we drive, for example.

The intuition function it's almost a judge function (specially the Ni), it delivers to the actual judge function (in INTP's is the Ti) a pre-judged perception. In case of present (dynamic; here-and-now; think fast) situations the Ni it's the most fit to an intuitive to use.

#### Architect

##### Professional INTP
Isn't humanity a typical such course for an INFJ? Isn't there a lot that is something of a laid out course? Ni is pretty good at taking a lot of stuff into account once it's known. At a certain point it becomes pretty quick and accurate because it can apply so many things at once into forming an impression. Thus making them pretty quick but albeit less accurate typers. Works best IRL perhaps? Ni also adds a sense of belief in ones intuitions, especially if the dominant.
If you are an INFJ you can tell us. My observations having lived with an INFJ for so many decades is that Ni is a nebulous rabbit. Whereas I'll sit outside an idea to map out and see all the possibilities, the Ni dominant is like a rabbit that will dart around along some path or another (i.e. the "bunny trail"). Which is a great complement to the INTP Ne as they (INFJ's) usually have insights and realizations we don't.

#### DIALECTIC

##### Active Member
I think the OP should remember that unless you've really tested your intuitions by closer examination and testing of the person then they shouldn't be trusted. A vast majority, me included, aren't really that accurate at first glance typing, despite Ni or Ne.
Wasn't really a first glance at such. The person works with me but we hardly talk/see each other (different shifts). Its basically the mannerism and a couple of details i have recognized (they way i used to be when less of a mature INTP etc).

I noticed my intuition has been getting stronger over the last year or so... It feeds on itself (its own success) it seems, if that makes any sense ? Then again intuition (abductive reasoning) is pattern recognition so the more life experience / years, the larger the pattern to actually recognize ?

#### John_Mann

##### Active Member
If wasn't a first glance, you probably used the Ne. The Ne delivered some possiblities to Ti and the Ti function gave the answer to you. It's a relative slow process.

#### DIALECTIC

##### Active Member
When you have a bunch of present information (Se) the Ni will "collapse the wave function" into a steady "hunch". Ni it's very very fast, Ne it's more slowly and are associated (fed) with Si
Yes i recognize that "speed" you are talking about when i just instantly KNOW (Ni ?) as opposed to when i sorta think (Ne ?)

#### DIALECTIC

##### Active Member
If wasn't a first glance, you probably used the Ne. The Ne delivered some possiblities to Ti and the Ti function gave the answer to you. It's a relative slow process.
The person did something i do exactly the same and instantly i thought "fuck, just like me, he could be an INTP"... Then a couple of "general impressions" later i thought "it is very very probable he is an INTP".

I think the danger with intuition is that it gets "contaminated" with the ego / emotions. Then when we lose equanimity / objectivity (and sometimes it's easy to get carried away and believe what we think / feel), the integrity of intuition is compromised and we make errors in judgement or worse we make the wrong choices !

Yes looking back now, it was definitely "Ne" not "Ni", as i didn't just quite know the person's an INTP. It was more like abduction not just "sixth sense" kind of thing...

#### John_Mann

##### Active Member
Yeah. But you don't "think" (make decisions) through Ne (or Ni), you "see" (perceive) through them.

The Ne it's the possibilities generator (wave function) and the Ni it's the "sum up" of possibilities (the collapse of wave function). In dynamic situations the Ni sums up the perceptions made by the Se. The Ne sucks in dynamic situations.

But you can "transform" Ne into Se if you want to get a Ni action through Ne. Usually we do this by writing down the possibilities from the Ne, so you can actually see the possibilities (Se) then you can use Ni directly into Ne. It's a simple technique to work directly with Ne and Ni. Next time you have to make a decision, try to write down some possibilities and you'll see a better result from your decisions.

#### John_Mann

##### Active Member
The person did something i do exactly the same and instantly i thought "fuck, just like me, he could be an INTP"... Then a couple of "general impressions" later i thought "it is very very probable he is an INTP".
The perfect example of the Si/Ne pair.

#### John_Mann

##### Active Member
Speaking of perceiving functions and maturity, an immature Ne is a confused person (too much possibilities) and an immature Ni is a paranoid person (always with a steady hunch).

#### DIALECTIC

##### Active Member
But you can "transform" Ne into Se if you want to get a Ni action through Ne. Usually we do this by writing down the possibilities from the Ne, so you can actually see the possibilities (Se) then you can use Ni directly into Ne. It's a simple technique to work directly with Ne and Ni. Next time you have to make a decision, try to write down some possibilities and you'll see a better result from your decisions.
YES !!!! You are totally right, i have noticed many times in the past that when feeling particularly inspired (which doesn't really happen often these days...), if i start writing what i am thinking of, then i seem to come a "a ha" conclusion as i write ! Is it because the virtual / indeterminate through my thinking (potential) is becoming actual / determinate through my writing (material) ?

#### DIALECTIC

##### Active Member
Speaking of perceiving functions and maturity, an immature Ne is a confused person (too much possibilities) and an immature Ni is a paranoid person (always with a steady hunch).
Inversely, to you what would be a mature Ne and a mature Ni ?

#### John_Mann

##### Active Member
When you do that you are "transforming" Ne into Se and using Ni to get a ultra-mega perception of the problem. We always do that but when you know about the MBTI you just know why it works so well.

#### John_Mann

##### Active Member
Inversely, to you what would be a mature Ne and a mature Ni ?
When you filter (and refilter) the perceptions from your dominant function through the others functions. Likewise with the judge functions.

#### DIALECTIC

##### Active Member
When you do that you are "transforming" Ne into Se and using Ni to get a ultra-mega perception of the problem. We always do that but when you know about the MBTI you just know why it works so well.
Is it why ENTJ's (Te Ni Se Fi) always seem to express / encapsulate / objectify our very own thinking so damn good ? I just listen to them and i am mesmerized, i stop being lazy, i feel unstoppable and i am moved to take action !

#### John_Mann

##### Active Member
Yes. My two best friends are INTJ and ENFJ, and we have great brainstorms together. I give a universe of possibilities to them and they in turn pick up the more significative possibility to me. One of them helps me with ideas and the other helps me with the social problems. ENFJ's have an uncanny gift to read people and how use the social mechanics to extract the best information and results from it. They are natural hypnotizers.

#### own8ge

##### Existential Nihilist
It is Ni.
I am certain.

I often type people I merely see walking. Or I merely see them do a gesture. Or I merely see their smile. Or I merely hear them say something. And I know for absolutely sure what their type is. It is social awareness Fe with Conclusiveness Ni. It is your worldview that is doing all the work. In this case, finding out the concept of the unknown, ERGO Ni.

Ne doesn't maintain it's worldview! A Ne conclusion swifts Worldview. MBTI is a worldview system. It thus CAN'T be Ne.

#### DIALECTIC

##### Active Member
Yes. My two best friends are INTJ and ENFJ, and we have great brainstorms together. I give a universe of possibilities to them and they in turn pick up the more significative possibility to me. One of them helps me with ideas and the other helps me with the social problems. ENFJ's have an uncanny gift to read people and how use the social mechanics to extract the best information and results from it. They are natural hypnotizers.
Until about 2-3 years ago i was extremely depressed (i will spare you the details, just think mid age / epistemological / existencial crisis...) and if it hadn't been for Joe Rogan's (ENTJ) podcast to TOTALLY transform my life / body / mind / mental health, i will be probably dead by now as i was self destructing... The power of the ENTJ !!

#### John_Mann

##### Active Member
It is Ni.
I am certain.

I often type people I merely see walking. Or I merely see them do a gesture. Or I merely see their smile. Or I merely hear them say something. And I know for absolutely sure what their type is. It is social awareness Fe with Conclusiveness Ni. It is your worldview that is doing all the work. In this case, finding out the concept of the unknown, ERGO Ni.

Ne doesn't maintain it's worldview! A Ne conclusion swifts Worldview. MBTI is a worldview system. It thus CAN'T be Ne.
He changed the information in the OP. It's was not a first glance meet people.

#### John_Mann

##### Active Member
Until about 2-3 years ago i was extremely depressed (i will spare you the details, just think mid age / epistemological / existencial crisis...) and if it hadn't been for Joe Rogan's (ENTJ) podcast to TOTALLY transform my life / body / mind / mental health, i will be probably dead by now as i was self destructing... The power of the ENTJ !!
The ENxJ's use the power of intuition in the social sphere. They're great people, very manipulative, but great. I think they think the same about us.

#### DIALECTIC

##### Active Member
It is Ni.
I am certain.
Ne being objective and Ni being subjective... Would it be "Ni" then when say for example i read a portion of Nietzsche's Ecce Homo and i instantly / intuitively recognize myself / my own worldview also in what i read in a way that could have been written for me...

#### John_Mann

##### Active Member
Ne being objective and Ni being subjective... Would it be "Ni" then when say for example i read a portion of Nietzsche's Ecce Homo and i instantly / intuitively recognize myself / my own worldview also in what i read in a way that could have been written for me...
That's Ni(etzsche)! LOL

#### own8ge

##### Existential Nihilist
Ne being objective and Ni being subjective... Would it be "Ni" then when say for example i read a portion of Nietzsche's Ecce Homo and i instantly / intuitively recognize myself / my own worldview also in what i read in a way that could have been written for me...
Yes. It is Ni. Ignore these other fools. They are great, but when it comes to MBTI and Jungian Function understanding they suck. No offense boys.

To globalize it. It is NFJ-ness. INFJs and ENFJs have this extremely.

#### own8ge

##### Existential Nihilist
That guy is clearly an ENTJ, isn't he ?

Great videos/talks !
NO!!! He is an ENFJ.
I am 100 percent certain.
I have typed him before.

Even Pod'Lair typed him as an ENFJ so it's objective.

If I'm honest, In another worldview (there are different Biases of MBTI), he is an ESFP. But let it be clear that he is not a T type, lol.

#### DIALECTIC

##### Active Member
NO!!! He is an ENFJ.
I am 100 percent certain.
I have typed him before.

Even Pod'Lair typed him as an ENFJ so it's objective.

If I'm honest, In another worldview (there are different Biases of MBTI), he is an ESFP. But let it be clear that he is not a T type, lol.
To me, he sounds very much like Joe Rogan who clearly is an ENTJ...

#### Architect

##### Professional INTP
I've entirely lost track of this conversation. Seems like it's gone down an Ni rabbit hole.

#### DIALECTIC

##### Active Member
I've entirely lost track of this conversation. Seems like it's gone down an Ni rabbit hole.
Yes... "Ne" at its infamous worst !
But to the warped mind of the INTP, isn't everything altogether connected ?

#### own8ge

##### Existential Nihilist
Joe Rogan is an ENTP!

#### Architect

##### Professional INTP
Yes... "Ne" at its infamous worst !
But to the warped mind of the INTP, isn't everything altogether connected ?
The difficulty with the Ni bunny trail is it's twisting path gets me lost. When I lose sight of the big picture I lose interest.

#### own8ge

##### Existential Nihilist
No way.
The "J" is super strong in him !
You are wrong. Watch the video with Alex Jones, then you will know what J-ness is.

#### DIALECTIC

##### Active Member
The difficulty with the Ni bunny trail is it's twisting path gets me lost. When I lose sight of the big picture I lose interest.
Wouldn't Ni be similar to reaping without seeding ?

It's like jumping instantly to definite conclusion / (metaphysical) TRUTHS without neither theory nor practice !

It is the synthesis from theory and practice therefore transcending both time and space !

#### Brontosaurie

##### Banned
wouldn't Ne be more of a quick easy-going first glance thing and Ni a more deep serious encompassing thing, as with every other function?

#### Architect

##### Professional INTP
Wouldn't Ni be similar to reaping without seeding
Maybe, but I don't think so in my experience. Strong Ni's continually seed without reaping.

The proof is because Ni is a perceiving function (N), whereas Ti, for example (T), is a judging.

#### own8ge

##### Existential Nihilist
wouldn't Ne be more of a quick easy-going first glance thing and Ni a more deep serious encompassing thing, as with every other function?
No! Ni and Ne are both fast but in different ways.
Ni transcends time of objective thought. Ni draws conclusions faster than a human could think objectively. We just do, and rationalize it later by guessing the conclusions our minds made. But In reality, it all goes to fast to verbalize. Professional Fighters aught to be INFJs, because they can QUICKLY analyze their opponent their movements and thoughts WHILST finding the best moments and ways to strike.

This is how an INFJ thinks if and whilst he is fighting.
(1:35)

#### John_Mann

##### Active Member
Yes. It is Ni. Ignore these other fools. They are great, but when it comes to MBTI and Jungian Function understanding they suck. No offense boys.

To globalize it. It is NFJ-ness. INFJs and ENFJs have this extremely.
Oh yeah. Forget about my ponderations, I'm just a fool. Own8ge must be right after all, 'cause she just says so.

#### own8ge

##### Existential Nihilist
Oh yeah. Forget about my ponderations, I'm just a fool. Own8ge must be right after all, 'cause she just says so.
Don't take it personal. It's just a fact that I'm one of the more knowledgeable around here. Specifically when it comes to INFJs as I myself am one. Moreover, I have typed more than a thousand people and I have studied Pod'Lair, MBTI AND Jungian Typology. I know it all. Admit it. Haha, that was funny :P

#### Brontosaurie

##### Banned
Yes. It is Ni. Ignore these other fools. They are great, but when it comes to MBTI and Jungian Function understanding they suck. No offense boys.

To globalize it. It is NFJ-ness. INFJs and ENFJs have this extremely.
you saying anyone who intuitively agrees with nietzsche is an Ni type?

#### Brontosaurie

##### Banned
No! Ni and Ne are both fast but in different ways.
Ni transcends time of objective thought. Ni draws conclusions faster than a human could think objectively. We just do, and rationalize it later by guessing the conclusions our minds made. But In reality, it all goes to fast to verbalize. Professional Fighters aught to be INFJs, because they can QUICKLY analyze their opponent their movements and thoughts WHILST finding the best moments and ways to strike.

This is how an INFJ thinks if and whilst he is fighting.
(1:35)
so Ni is fast in an inexplicable superhero-way while Ne is just like normal fast? =P

#### DIALECTIC

##### Active Member
so Ni is fast in an inexplicable superhero-way while Ne is just like normal fast? =P
I think:

- "Ne" acts like a magnet being attracted by ideas one after the other, the more connections, the bigger / faster the momentum of the magnet...
Ideas are static so they don't move, it's the magnet (the subject) that is dynamic and comes to them (the object).

- "Ni" acts like a super strong magnet attracting entire systems / world views to it.
The magnet (the subject) doesn't move, it's the systems / world views (the object) that come directly to it ! The stronger the Ni, the deeper / bigger the (metaphysical) truths / catch.

Ne perceives / connects ideas, one after the other (even if the whole process can become very fast)...

Ni is like an eagle eye, it perceives entire systems of ideas in one go... I found it overpowering at times, like my breath was sorta taken away by what i found ! At times, afterwards, i even often totally forgot what i perceived during some of the strongest "Ni trances" (epihanies).

Anyway, that's the way i "felt" / experienced both... Anyone felt similarities ?