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Need dating advice as a male ISFJ

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#1
I am a very shy kind of person. I don't often walk up to people and start a conversation. I do not get out much and I do not know any places I can just meet people. I am 30 years old and do not know where people my age hang out. As an ISFJ I understand people as to how I have experienced people in the past. I just get a feeling about them. Once I feel comfortable with someone and talk with them I feel fine. It is beginning the conversation that is most difficult. I am like a decade behind where I should be in social experience, what I should have learned in high school. I know how people are but I do not know how to act on that impression. I always wait for them to initiate and then I can respond. I can tell them what I know and what I think but being one on one with the people I have, I am the more timid one. I try to be as socially appropriate as possible. And I notice things about people that tell me when to hold back. Holding back is why I only start conversations at planned social gatherings in small groups. I just can't go out there in large crowds and talk to people.

My timidness in likely to decrease but slowly.
I need to know how to act more social but I do understand people.
I want to learn how to find a person I would like to be around.
There were times I found someone but I missed those opportunities.
It would be nice to have someone I could be with that matched.
 

Pyropyro

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#2
I really prefer people learn how to have deep friendships first then learn how to date.

Partners are both lovers and friends. Eros has limited ability to sustain a relationship indefinitely while philia (friendly love) can tank some obstacles within any relationships.
 

Pyropyro

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#4
sure, I do want a girlfriend, how do I do that?
Have healthy, friendly relationships with girl_friends, get yourself healthier and find a stable job/education.

Those things would be a good start for you and your quest for getting a gf.
 

Serac

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#5
Start by working on your personality, how you express yourself, learning which kind of expression is attractive to girls (or socially attractive in general), etc. Find people who can give you honest feedback on how you are perceived in the eyes of others. Learn how to look people in the eyes, how to communicate with the eyes. I have seen some of your videos, and I can say there is a vast discrepancy between how much empathy and emotion you have, and how much of it is visible on your face. Also learn how to smile and laugh.

No offense to Pyro, but his advice is very close to useless. "Find a stable job"? Come on..
 
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#6
there's a website called meetup, check what's going on in your city
you can sign for different kind of events, cultural, artsy, language exchanges (here you'll find a lot of opportunities with girls), and i think there's also romantic dates (haven't been there because i think it's too straightforward for me).
tho i have no idea where you live so it might not be that cool for you.

then it's easy, you go to a girl and start a conversation, but being shy and shit won't help, you need to fail many times first dude, i think over 1.5 - 2 years of social activity (1 day per week) you'll develop confidence, don't think social interactions won't hurt because they will, probably for you a lot. just get out there and experiment, think of it as a laboratory. there's no other way.

who knows, maybe you're lucky and find a nerd shy girl who likes your bone structure and you won't need to wait 2 years.

now the stable job, well depends, girls on our age range prefer something similar to them, if they have a stable job and you have no job, they'll date you and shit but eventually they'll think you are a parasite and leave when another opportunity comes by. if they are just as shitty as you then they'll be fine until both shittiness collapses.
there are no laws in these matters tho, i know a girl who has been with same nerd guy for like 10 years and each of them want to commit suicide still they spend their misery together.
what a shitty existence in my view.

you said you own a house? that's good. very good, i would start conversations giving that piece of info (just be a bit subtle) if she's hobo she'll love you for the flat and since you can be objective about feelings, her company will work well for you.
 

Serac

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#7
Whatever you do, never start with advertising your material possessions. That's self-qualification, which always works against you.
 
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#8
Maybe consider trying to get friends and be more social first? I mean, if you meet someone you like, sure, but otherwise, just trying to come out of your shell might be the better start.

Do you have any acquaintances, friends or family who ask you to come along to do stuff that you usually decline because it's stressful? If so, you can start by saying yes more frequently to them and practice being around people that way. Maybe reach out to a person who's been trying to get you involved previously.

If you live near or in a city, maybe you'll find some nerd groups/ activities you can join? It might be easier to wiggle into a social sphere if you're doing an activity like playing board games or so. If you feel you have nothing to say in everyday life, playing or doing something together give some common ground for talking. If you find other weirdos/ nerds, you might also be more easily accepted even if you're mute most of the time.

It might be very difficult the first months or even year, with a lot of stress and anxiety, which is pretty normal if you've been kind of a loner for a while. But if you figure something out that works for you, stuff gets better. Just be prepared it might be very taxing and draining before it feels rewarding.

I guess it's possible to try dating, but I think it's playing on hard mode if you've barely talked to people the last couple of years.
 
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#9
Carl Jung - Introverted Sensation

Whenever the objective influence does succeed in forcing its way into the subject -- as the result of particular circumstances of special intensity, or because of a more perfect analogy with the unconscious image -- even the normal example of this type is induced to act in accordance with his unconscious model.
unconscious image

All images that are in my head are unconscious, so are my memories.

I think Si may relate to my Aphantasia.

Vedic Scripts say Maya is illusion.

Everything is removed from the subject because it is only in the subject.

Everything that passes through the subject as experience is not the subject.

Then there is non-attachment. All that is - Passes.


Anyone know how this relates to forming good relationships?
 

Hadoblado

I em Hedo I like smell of grass
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#10
I've heard that PUA has a lot of good accessible advice on this sort of thing if you stay on the self-improvement path and ignore all the dehumanising sexually predatory nonsense?
 

Pyropyro

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#11
(...)

No offense to Pyro, but his advice is very close to useless. "Find a stable job"? Come on..
If I remember correctly, AK is currently on welfare support. Of course, if it is no longer the case then yeah its probably useless advice.
 
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#12
I think what my problem is, is low self-esteem, low energy, and confidence. I need to get over some stuff. Stop falling into that pit of despair. Balance my emotions. I get very upset failing a lot and having nothing to do. I need to slow down and be aware.

If I fix all my insecurities I won't have any problems finding a girlfriend.
 
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#13
https://www.16personalities.com/isfj-relationships-dating

ISFJ RELATIONSHIPS
When it comes to romantic relationships, ISFJs’ kindness grows into a joy that is only found in taking care of their family and home, in being there for emotional and practical support whenever it’s needed. Home is where the heart is for people with the ISFJ personality type, and in no other area of their lives do they strive with such dedication to create the harmony and beauty they wish to see in the world.

The trouble is, these are the benefits of an established long-term relationship, and ISFJs’ unbearable shyness means it can take a long time to reach this point. ISFJs are most attractive when they are simply being themselves in a comfortable environment such as work, where their natural flow shows this kindness and dedication. Relationships built on established familiarity are a warm prospect for ISFJs – they take dating seriously and only enter into relationships that have a real chance of lasting a lifetime.

 

The Grey Man

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#14
unconscious image

All images that are in my head are unconscious, so are my memories.

I think Si may relate to my Aphantasia.

Vedic Scripts say Maya is illusion.

Everything is removed from the subject because it is only in the subject.

Everything that passes through the subject as experience is not the subject.

Then there is non-attachment. All that is - Passes.


Anyone know how this relates to forming good relationships?
To remove from the concept of the subject all possible material differentiations of the objective (integrated information, in the language of the theory of Tononi et al with which it shares its name) leaves us with an empty abstraction (null concept; nothing at all), just as an object presupposes an understanding subject, a unitary spatio-temporal manifold- and thus a mutually supporting community with other objects, a diversity- as its Kantian condition of possibility (imagine an object with no-one “around” to perceive it...obviously you can’t, because at least you’d be perceiving it!). The subject and the object, then, are the two indispensable aspects of existence, which are yet opposite; reality, the immanent present in which we find our selves, is both complex and simple (Leibniz: “multiplicité dans l’unité”; composition and integration), being and becoming, a system of passive phenomena constituting a singular act of will.

Just as absurd and meaningless as the concept of an undifferentiated, object-less subject is it to suppose that only the present differentiation of matter is ‘me,’ and that all others are...well, ‘merely others!’ This is what it is to be fooled by the ‘illusion’ of Maya (small wonder, then, that the great Schopenhauer called it the principium individuationis; exclusion is its name in Integrated Information Theory). One recognizes in objects only their objective aspect- that is, their passive aspect. He fails to recognize that they not only are instrumental or obstructive to fulfilling his desires, but also, as acts of will, have desires of their own which are no less real and no less ‘important.’

Animals are almost completely under this spell since their understanding is heavily skewed towards discerning the exigencies of the present. Vulgar people are a little freer of it than are animals, for they at least recognize the reality of their foreseen future selves and usually- albeit to a lesser extent- those of their tribe. Somewhat above the vulgar man is the pompous utilitarian who preaches sanctimoniously about the ‘rights’ (subjective existence; susceptibility to desires) of humans- and sometimes other animals- in general exclusively, emboldened by a relatively thorough education, which has yet not impressed upon him a pittance of humility in view of the abyss of human ignorance. Finally, there is the ascetic, who recognizes and respects the subjective reality of everything, including- and especially- that which harms and wrongs him by opposing his will, impeding his progress towards his desires.

The ascetic doesn’t concern himself with acquisitive efforts on behalf of himself, his tribe, or the insipid, limp-wristed inhabitants of some future global kindergarten because he knows that the very effort entails conflict with another manifestation of will whose desires are no less ‘important,’ so, to answer your question, asceticist philosophy is the wrong place to look for advice on how to ‘get’ a girlfriend. Asceticism has as its problem not any desire, but desire, from which it seeks deliverance.
 

Serac

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#15
I think what my problem is, is low self-esteem, low energy, and confidence. I need to get over some stuff. Stop falling into that pit of despair. Balance my emotions. I get very upset failing a lot and having nothing to do. I need to slow down and be aware.

If I fix all my insecurities I won't have any problems finding a girlfriend.
I know you're probably talking about general insecurities about yourself, as opposed to insecurities in social situations in particular, but here are some aspects of social insecurities I have observed, as they pertain to myself:

Based on what I am doing in life at various times, I oscillate between being a hermit and being social and active in the external world. For example if I have been working one some problem alone and barely interacted with people for 2 weeks, it gets quite stressful to re-engage socially. Social interaction is a massive stimulus which can devolve into severe stress when one is not exposed to that stimulus regularly. This stress, in turn, causes a lot of adrenaline and cortisol and whatever, which causes nervous ticks, awkwardness and so on. Then there's been times when I have been extremely active socially – gone to nightclubs 5 days every week and whatnot over long periods of time. Subsequently you adapt, social stimulus gets very easy to deal with, the awkwardness disappears, and you build up the confidence again.

So my point is: one might think of insecurity as something that prevents one from engaging socially, but the lack of social stimulus itself causes insecurity even when there's nothing to be insecure about. So to get rid of insecurities, I would just start by being around groups of people regularly. TMB mentioned the meetup thing, which is actually a good idea. That even has the advantage of being a social meeting based on some topic of your choice, which will make the interactions very natural.
 
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#16
So my point is: one might think of insecurity as something that prevents one from engaging socially, but the lack of social stimulus itself causes insecurity even when there's nothing to be insecure about. So to get rid of insecurities, I would just start by being around groups of people regularly.
I hold in my emotions. I don't cry when I should. I have emotional pain that just won't come out. I have expectations that I should be working on something productive but am unable to and my sense of worth weakens. Why am I valuable as a person if I am inadequate to make progress in some form of meaningful endeavor. Don't guys want to be useful and productive? Not sit at home doing nothing. I had a job for 2 years as a janitor. It was no that intellectually stimulating, I still felt alone and no one to talk accept here on the forum. But I wanted to be creative and I was not creative 6 years out of 10. I was very demoralized. Sad I could not do anything because I was not smart. I need to work on that. Everything I internalized about myself being worthless and inadequate.

so, to answer your question, asceticist philosophy is the wrong place to look for advice on how to ‘get’ a girlfriend. Asceticism has as its problem not any desire, but desire, from which it seeks deliverance.
95 percent of what you see is created by your brain and is not coming from your brain. The Object is 95 percent subjective. The other 5 percent is subjective. Carl Jung believed there was only the subjective and we create the objective by the relationship we have of the subjective projected onto a supposed outside world. We only exist in the brain and information enters and is phenomena but never as the Noumena. The phenomena are temporary like software files that are installed and removed from a computer memory. Everything on a computer screen can be erased, a two-hour movie played is replaced by blackness. All that happens in the subject is impermanent.

The will is simply a loop that sustains an effort. The passivity of non-resistance or to surrender, is effortlessness. The will never loses energy because of a dynamo that pushes forward against all obstacles. It is the subjective inner drive. To contrast where effortlessness is present, the will is projected outward. The subjective will forces the world to change inside out. The objective will make the world part of the self so not much energy is needed to change things because is not coming from within but simply allowing things to happen inadvertently the energy expendend on it. The Objective will is not energetic, it flows with the doing not involving the self. So the objective self is calm, selfless, can use momentum. The subjective will is fully present, energized, empowered.

(I have been describing Fi and Fe)

Because the object is a projection in the subjective self. The subjective is self-contained. It is the self going into itself. The projection is moving outward from the self thus is not self-contained. But this outward motion is still in the subjective, it is just not seen that way as it is seen as the outside world. So Se makes the 95 percent of what we see supper detailed. Well, Si unconcerned with the present moment is an interference pattern of all sensory experiences it has had. Thus everything is a cascade of unconscious happenings moving through each other. connected in odd ways. It is illusionary in the background of the Si mind.

(It is the self going into itself)
This is true of Thinking and Intuition also.

ISFJ by Fe experience selflessness and effortlessness.
ISFJ by Si perceives in the subjective as an illusionary sense of the world.
Ti - is suppressed but works in the background, thinking going into itself.
Ne - is suppressed but works in the background, projects new ideas into the world.

The phenomena is only in the brain and is impermanent/temporary, we cannot access the Noumena outside the brain.
 

The Grey Man

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#17
That was a helpful post. I've never seen Jung mapped onto Schopenhauer like that. I especially liked the bit about the subjective aspect of the will trying to change the world from the inside out whereas the doing of the object does not involve the self as a conduit, since I've been struggling to express that concept myself.

So:

Feeling = Will
Introverted feeling = Will immanently (subjectively) perceived
Extraverted feeling = Will transcendently (objectively) perceived
Sensing = Idea
Extraverted sensing = Idea spatially perceived (detailed, informative present)
Introverted sensing = Idea temporally perceived (memory; superposition of presents)

Am I getting warm?
 
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#19
Ti - universal principles.
Te - algorithmic, procedural.

Ni - connecting with the concepts from the internal unconscious
Ne - the unconscious deriving concepts from the external
 
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#20
Si - comparative
Ni - epiphany

Se - acute sensory experience
Ne - novelty creation

Fi - immanence will
Fe - transcendent will

Ti - internal consistency
Te - functional utility

(Animekitty: ISFJ)

Si - comparative
Fe - transcendent will
Ti - internal consistency
Ne - novelty creation
 

Pizzabeak

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#21
Just be yourself. Chicks dig cash, and valuable work.
 
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#23
I think what my problem is, is low self-esteem, low energy, and confidence. I need to get over some stuff. Stop falling into that pit of despair. Balance my emotions. I get very upset failing a lot and having nothing to do. I need to slow down and be aware.

If I fix all my insecurities I won't have any problems finding a girlfriend.
Today I hugged my mom for 10 minutes because I was feeling low. Now am listening to inspirational music. Am feeling the soothing energy mixing with the shakiness and sharp length pains. Pain is deep. It doesn't come out all at once. Healing requires love. Love is being held. To have a connection.

The pain is felt so to go away.
Stillness calm and alert awareness of the body and mind.
Being aware of perception helps with:
mental clarity, fast attention, use of the whole brain simultaneously.

Just trying to let go of everything. Its all held inside.
 

Pyropyro

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#25
Tomorrow I am going to buy some Vitamin D and Magnesium and hopefully Vitamin E and B-complex.
Do you have multivitamins back there like Centrum? It should have all that vitamins and more.
 
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#26
Holding back is why I only start conversations at planned social gatherings in small groups. I just can't go out there in large crowds and talk to people.
Bingo!
@Animekitty , my advice to you is this, and I'm going to keep it simple:

Phase 1: Attend planned social gatherings.
How you find these is entirely up to you (meetup.com has been mentioned, but just attending something where there will be other people will do - maybe go to a cooking class or something, that way if it doesn't work out, you at least learn something)

Phase 2: Make a friend(s).
Whatever it is that you go and do, just talk to the person next to you (male, female or other), with the goal of making a friend. Form bonds with other people. This brings us to Phase 3.

Phase 3: Become a part of friendship groups.
Utilise your new friendship(s) to integrate yourself into social circles. Do this by strengthening your new friendship(s) and be invited (or even just ask) if you can hang out with your new friend(s)' friends.

Phase 4: Meet dating candidates as friends of friends.
You should now be part of a group or groups of people. You can now leverage your connections and your confidence with people you are familiar with to seek potential dating candidates. Your new friends probably also want you to be happy and may be willing to help do some of the legwork and set you up.

Notes:
- The overarching principle here is that you should try to build social connections (which will be beneficial in itself for you) and leverage them towards your dating goals.
- Don't make the mistake of viewing all women (I'm assuming you're seeking a female partner) as potential partners. Develop friendly relationships and then evaluate dating potential. Otherwise, you're going to fuck it up.
- Be yourself. This usually comes across as bullshit advice, and it is in the context of dating as an isolated activity. But I'm talking here about building friendships, and you should be transparent with your friends. They can't help you with your matchmaking if they don't know the real you.
- Don't fall into the trap of trying to rely on platforms like Tinder or the like. Do ti the old fashioned introvert way. Make friends, make more friends, date friends of friends.
 

Serac

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#27
Excellent advice from @Happy here. I would comment on one thing though, in particular phase 2: I don't know if it's a good idea to go into interactions with making friends as an explicit goal. This could potentially come off as a bit needy, and will make you sensitive to rejection. Same goes for interacting with girls. In general, I would say it's better to be free from outcome. Just be in the moment, focus on having a natural, fun and interesting interaction, and let the chips fall where they may. If you happen to click with someone, the rest will take care of itself.
 
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#28
^ yeah true. Not so much an explicit goal. More important to just not get bogged down by trying to pick up girls, but rather just engineer an increased possibility for the desired outcome, and enjoy the journey.
 
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