Ne vs Ni vs Se vs Si

[viche]

so the mindset of each is:
Se sees reality ( his life ) as 1 big summer
Si sees reality (his life) as 1 big autumn
Ni sees reality (his life) as 1 big winter
Ne sees reality (his life) as 1 big spring

it fits all the descriptions you guys posted

I think of Ne and Se as forces that create, while Ni and Si are forces that conserve.
So if you think that this universe is comprised of deterministic forces which would correspond to Ni and Si and then there are chaotic forces that allow something new to come into existence, this would be Se and Ne. That's the metaphor that I use.

Ne - The Insecure Novelist - This type bases itself with the presented environment but it seeks for more than that, it looks for the deep meanings and assigns the bigger pictures to them. It looks at things as parts to a bigger system, screws for a master plan and to find the actual plan it uses imaginative tools.

I'd take out adjective "insecure" and replace it with "brave and bold". Types that have Ne as dominant function aren't insecure about using it. They enjoy having unpredictable future, living and thinking a step ahead. To outside observer it may seem like they are always trying to escape the present moment.

I call the Ne-dominant type the Seeker or Searcher, because on the outside it looks like they are always looking for something jumping from one weird thing they encountered to the next, as well as the Meaning Giver because it seems like Ne gives meaning to the objects it encounters in the outside environment. It picks up an object from environment then creates some random context around it. Ni works differently. It actually subtracts meaning from environment and kind of just sucks it inside into the mind of the Ni-dominant person so then Ni-dom walks around with his or her head full of meaning but environment largely seems kinda meaningless hence the detachment of Ni.

Se - The Hype(r) Sensors - Looking at the environment presented before it's eyes, the function seeks for incentives that attract attention, it searches the bright lights and the physical world. Often it wouldn't go beyond the shallow facts (perhaps if it's developed enough along with Ni). The function users will usually act upon the immediate data instead of asking too much questions of why. (I've added this part for you - with the how and why theories, also the Ne above would probably fit into your "why" part)

Se is just enjoying sensory input of the moment. I was driving today deep in my own thoughts then I saw a nice looking car on the road of yellow hue and immediately got drawn into the present moment just savoring the look. It's the ultimate "ooo shiny!" syndrome.

In evolutionary sense I think Se is tied to expanding your territory, to wanting more in the physical world, while Si is tied to maintaining and fortifying your territory, maintaining what you already have in the physical world. Then as I mentioned T/F is simply a scale of how competitive the individual is - strong T = very competitive, strong F = very cooperative.

(It's pretty obvious why I called both functions as I did - sensors act with no delay upon what they sense and the novelist will devise great stories of imagination to fit each object it finds in its place in the bigger story)

I disagree with statement that sensors act with no delay. Se-sensors may act with no delay because they are trying to always live a step ahead. But Si-sensors will hesitate and act slowly. I like this article that illustrates how different thinking styles would compete if they have to play a game together: http://greenlightwiki.com/lenore-exegesis/Game-Board_Exegesis. For Se: "Make moves that make a big impact, that surprise, can be seen, are dramatic, stand out from the rest of the current action. Do things that grab the attention of the people around you. You might not see how that leads to victory, but the whole path cannot be seen right now. Surely action that gets you noticed is the only way, though!" So Se is like winning the game using the strategy of surprise factor in the physical world, for example, like hitting someone when they did not expect it. It is a strategy of out-doing other people, doing a lot, doing more than others, taking on action while your opponent hesitates, sits around and thinks. Si to the contrary emphasized being conservative in your moves. I don't think sensors think any less, that ISTJ spends less time referencing his or her Si than INTJ spends referencing his Ni. It is just that their mind values different things so to intuitives their 'moves' look sort of poorly thought out.

ExxPs which are either Se-doms or Ne-doms are the personalities that are most commonly diagnosed with attention deficit disorder as they find it difficult to concentrate on the present moment. To the contrary IxxJs are the types that can sit and read a textbook in library for 6+ hours. They learn slowly, but typically have superior ability to concentrate. The downside is that the breadth of their knowledge is usually very narrow as they prefer to learn a few subjects in great depth. While ExxPs go for breadth of learning rather than depth so upon initial meeting they make for interesting conversationalists.

Ni - The Paranoid Puppeteer - This function will probably present itself as more of an individual thinking rather then asking for validation, it treats things that Ne perceive as an "underlying meaning" as shallow and seeks for even deeper and more thorough understanding. It will often switch perspectives and will try to define and examine every possibility unlike the Ne function that will come to the situation heads on with one POV.

All introverted functions are highly specific to the individual, not just Ni, so all of Xi functions can be described as "individual thinking" or subjective thinking. By validation I think you mean interacting with the outside, or behaving objectively, or in accordance to some outside standards. Only extraverted functions do that, but it is not because they seek validation. They simply do not exist otherwise, by their definition they have to be objective.

Si - The Memory Banker - Unlike Ni, this function will run to the other extreme. Storing data as it's most basic thing with a lot of detail intake, basing itself on memory and recollection along with past experiences. The users of such a function would stick to what works and what seemed to work, and always incorporating new information. Although it doesn't mean this function won't search for patterns on-the-way to base it's decision and will most likely be correlated with Ne.

Ni will also stick to what has worked in past. Ni is conceptually conservative while Si is conservative in the physical world.

I think the problems in your understanding bases itself in the fact that you want to incorporate it into your how vs why theory, but remember - "If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts" Albert Einstein.

>.< ... this forum is clearly lacking on Te

 

[LPolaright]

I think of Ne and Se as forces that create, while Ni and Si are forces that conserve.
So if you think that this universe is comprised of deterministic forces which would correspond to Ni and Si and then there are chaotic forces that allow something new to come into existence, this would be Se and Ne. That's the metaphor that I use.


I'd take out adjective "insecure" and replace it with "brave and bold". Types that have Ne as dominant function aren't insecure about using it. They enjoy having unpredictable future, living and thinking a step ahead. To outside observer it may seem like they are always trying to escape the present moment.

I call the Ne-dominant type the Seeker or Searcher, because on the outside it looks like they are always looking for something jumping from one weird thing they encountered to the next, as well as the Meaning Giver because it seems like Ne gives meaning to the objects it encounters in the outside environment. It picks up an object from environment then creates some random context around it. Ni works differently. It actually subtracts meaning from environment and kind of just sucks it inside into the mind of the Ni-dominant person so then Ni-dom walks around with his or her head full of meaning but environment largely seems kinda meaningless hence the detachment of Ni.


Se is just enjoying sensory input of the moment. I was driving today deep in my own thoughts then I saw a nice looking car on the road of yellow hue and immediately got drawn into the present moment just savoring the look. It's the ultimate "ooo shiny!" syndrome.

In evolutionary sense I think Se is tied to expanding your territory, to wanting more in the physical world, while Si is tied to maintaining and fortifying your territory, maintaining what you already have in the physical world. Then as I mentioned T/F is simply a scale of how competitive the individual is - strong T = very competitive, strong F = very cooperative.


I disagree with statement that sensors act with no delay. Se-sensors may act with no delay because they are trying to always live a step ahead. But Si-sensors will hesitate and act slowly. I like this article that illustrates how different thinking styles would compete if they have to play a game together: http://greenlightwiki.com/lenore-exegesis/Game-Board_Exegesis. For Se: "Make moves that make a big impact, that surprise, can be seen, are dramatic, stand out from the rest of the current action. Do things that grab the attention of the people around you. You might not see how that leads to victory, but the whole path cannot be seen right now. Surely action that gets you noticed is the only way, though!" So Se is like winning the game using the strategy of surprise factor in the physical world, for example, like hitting someone when they did not expect it. It is a strategy of out-doing other people, doing a lot, doing more than others, taking on action while your opponent hesitates, sits around and thinks. Si to the contrary emphasized being conservative in your moves. I don't think sensors think any less, that ISTJ spends less time referencing his or her Si than INTJ spends referencing his Ni. It is just that their mind values different things so to intuitives their 'moves' look sort of poorly thought out.

ExxPs which are either Se-doms or Ne-doms are the personalities that are most commonly diagnosed with attention deficit disorder as they find it difficult to concentrate on the present moment. To the contrary IxxJs are the types that can sit and read a textbook in library for 6+ hours. They learn slowly, but typically have superior ability to concentrate. The downside is that the breadth of their knowledge is usually very narrow as they prefer to learn a few subjects in great depth. While ExxPs go for breadth of learning rather than depth so upon initial meeting they make for interesting conversationalists.


All introverted functions are highly specific to the individual, not just Ni, so all of Xi functions can be described as "individual thinking" or subjective thinking. By validation I think you mean interacting with the outside, or behaving objectively, or in accordance to some outside standards. Only extraverted functions do that, but it is not because they seek validation. They simply do not exist otherwise, by their definition they have to be objective.


Ni will also stick to what has worked in past. Ni is conceptually conservative while Si is conservative in the physical world.


>.< ... this forum is clearly lacking on Te

These arguments mainly concern how I described the types but I didn't really give it much thought (because you are right, I lack of Te - or more accurately I prefer Ti), the definitions were mainly for me rather then him. But I did think it might help a bit to relate to an actual "character" than a "function".

The metaphors aren't perfect but they're doing their job great as mnemonics.

I took your notes into consideration and will probably fix my metaphors accordingly, and thus I thank you for that.

 

[viche]

What do you guys think of the above? Can we continue this? Is intuition something analog? (analog as in complete and thus not discrete/distinct/digital)

I've re-read this thread as I kind of lost track of it but yes I agree that intuition seems like something continuous or analog as you say.

Ne is like Te, it is divergent to multiple sub tasks
Ni is like Ti, it is convergent to one super task

the Ne/Ti combination works like this: Ne comes up with a bunch of random/intuitive HOWs (multiple sub tasks) that dont make logical sense per se, then Ti needs to check if those HOWs fit in, by asking WHY? if they fit by a logical WHY, its a succesful match, if not, next. Without Ne: Ti cannot go into sub tasks, it can only go into a super task
- so Ne/Ti type is an irrational HOW type that gets away with it by verifying that with a rational WHY

the Ni/Te combination works like this: Ni comes up with a random/intuitive WHY (1 super task), and then Te can make a bunch of logical HOWs (new sub tasks) from that new starting point (the 1 super task) that Ni has provided. WIthout that new starting point Te can only go into sub tasks, it cannot go into a super task
- so Ni/Te type is an irrational WHY type that gets away with it by verifying that with rational HOWs

Intuitively this sound ok but I am still confused about difference between task and information. Wouldn't perceiving functions deal with information and judging ones deal with tasks?

Can you tie this into Reinin dichotomy for strategic vs tactical thinking? Basically any type that has first or third function as intuition is said to be given into tactical thinkings (the how, the methods are set, the why's, the goals are variable) and the types that have intuition as auxiliary or inferior function are said to be given into strategic thinking (the how, the methods are variable, the whys, the goals are set).

 

[SkyWalker]

My concept was that all information is a task.

Even "the color red" is a task, since it instructs you to process/experience "red".

Anything that is not a task for a human is also not information for a human. If it is not a task then it would really be void to us: it would not even be seen, since there would simply be no experience for it

Red is an example of a concrete task, which does not have sub tasks and can be experienced/processed directly. (the lowest HOW form)

There is also tasks which cannot be experienced/processed directly, they are abstract and only contain a set of sub tasks.

The highest super tasks are intent (archetypes). (the highest WHY form).

-----------------------

Tasks enter you as (analog) information through your senses.
THen your perception functions convert/decode them to tasks. Each perception function is a different kind of decoder, thus filters reality in a different way and decodes only certain tasks.
the perception functions are thus task aquisition functions.

Then those tasks are passed to the judging functions and they schedule those tasks for execution, each function using a different schedule / execution strategy.

-----

P.S. The task hierarchy format (super tasks and sub tasks) is not only known by the judging functions, but also by the perception functions. the perception functions can also filter/perceive abstract tasks (those which contain sub tasks) directly from the environment, otherwise they would only be able to decode concrete tasks.


----

I am new to "Reinin dichotomy for strategic vs tactical thinking", will read about it and get back to you

 

[shadowdrums4]

T and F are not the functions that perceive time. These are judging functions that call judgements based on either subjective (internal, personal values) or objective (externally established, societal values) values systems. S/N are the elements that let us register passage of time. Perception of future is probably created from some sort of interplay between perception of past and perception of present moment. The way NiSe does it (and I can only speak for NiSe) is flip the patterns and connections it has observed in past into the future when Se detects certain element related to that pattern. So say I observed that A causes B five times in my life. As Ni user I will remember A->B causal relationship very well. Then I go around life and my Se detects A in environment. My mind immediately recalls the pattern and I think "oh! B is going to happen now". This is how predictive ability of Ni works. It is basically anticipating. It's like flipping the patterns you have perceived in past into the future and expecting them to repeat. For INFJs and INTJs I know this sometimes gives a sense of predetermination and a certain sense of helplessness that nothing can be done, especially if individual's Ni is very heavy and its counter, Se, is very underdeveloped.

How future works for NeSi types I do not know. I have read that types with dominant or auxiliary Ne, INxPs and ENxPs, prefer to prepare for the future rather than anticipate it. I am not sure what this really means. Assuming you are INTP, can you describe how perception of future works for you?

First off thanks a lot for the description of Ni/Se relationship and how that ability works. My sister is an INTJ and showed me that she could do it but you really helped me understand what I saw. Especially the "A causes B" part. One thing my sister did was take my drumstick and tell me from looking at that alone, even if she didn't know me, she could tell I practiced a lot because she saw black marks on my sticks that she said were caused by the sweat in my hands. This is a pattern she saw when she'd come in from outside and touched wood, black marks. I can kinda back track from there and see how she reached that conclusion. She'd always tell me "I know ____ because I can see/hear ___"

Now I'm going to attempt to explain how it works for Ne/Si because it's something I try to catch in my own thinking. It starts with Ne seeing all the possibilities. Even if we see A causes B five times, Ne will see A and say "Hey maybe it'll be different this time" Ne thinks that the factors surrounding A, like different people being involved, may change the effect. Si remembers and stores that A has caused B in the past, and so Ne has some possibilities it believes are more likely, but nothing is ever set in stone, and Ne likes to prepare for the unexpected. It may appear that they are preparing for the future, but really they just had that possibility in mind. They prepare for the idea that they may not be prepared. For example (actually happened) An Ne dominant might see a parked fire truck and run up and ask "Hey can I sit in your truck?" They've already seen that the person may say no, or that they may say yes. They've already decided what they'll do in either situation. (This is the most basic way to put it, really they've probably seen all kinds of different versions of "yes" or "No") and have figured out their next move in any case. I think this is why it's very limited in how far ahead it plans. Since it is adapting to whatever course of action happens. If the Ne dom were to keep asking random fire trucks, they may start to remember details (Si) of what was said in the past. Ne then uses those memories to try to find the common patterns (like maybe every person who said yes was messing around in the fire truck before you asked) when it happened with the Ne user I was with, it happened twice. The first person said yes and got a little kids fire hat. The next time, the second they sat in the truck, they asked if the fireman had one. The reason they asked is because they've taken into account that the second fireman may not have one, or may not know that they wanted one, because of a different circumstance. (I was told later that they thought they hadn't acted as childish about it the second time) So it's kinda A causes B under the same circumstances but anything altered may cause A to come up with C or D or X or 5.

Does that clear some things up?

One thing I've noticed on the difference between Ni and Ne is that Ne seems to need somthing to work with, (like until I told that fire truck story, I didn't feel like my answer was clear enough) where Ni seems to be able to create it out of thin air (that's what it looks like to me anyway) It's very much a Ni starts with the outcome then looks at possible circumstances, and Ne starts with the circumstances and sees the possible outcomes.

I'll get back to you on Si vs Se after a little more interaction with an Si dom. First I need to find one....

 

[ked]

Se is sensing, seeing, hearing outside things dominantly rather than inside things of Si (the body) dominantly. The Ne is just the same as Se but happening in the memory, iNtuitive memory, and is visual as Se is so. Ni is just an extension of the Si, but instead of the attention being dominantly inner sensoric it's dominantly inner memoric; a sort of (non-visual) dreamer.