My therapist says I have 'toxic shame'.

[QuickTwist]

https://www.theguardian.com/theobserver/2003/feb/16/features.magazine67

 

[Mxx]

I wonder if this is what people of non-dominant sexual orientations were afflicted with in previous generations when it was considered shameful not to be heterosexual. I know many are put off by the "loud and proud" flamboyance we see in recent years, but perhaps that's just the necessary pendulum swing.

It does make me wonder though, are there instances in which toxic shame is warranted and necessary? (Those who harm children for example). And what if you are born wired in ways that society (rightly or wrongly) deems you to be shameful? Perhaps that's where religion comes in, to forgive the unforgiveables.

 

[Jennywocky]

I wonder if this is what people of non-dominant sexual orientations were afflicted with in previous generations when it was considered shameful not to be heterosexual. I know many are put off by the "loud and proud" flamboyance we see in recent years, but perhaps that's just the necessary pendulum swing.

That's my read on it.

People who grow up in a non-religious world / not immersed in a socioreligious environment or who align with their environment probably don't grasp it without a parallel experience. (US society seems more post-Christian, although there's a lot of recent pushback from certain demographics.)

Basically, you would be in an environment where society acted as the shaming parent from an early age if you didn't conform... and if you continued to openly buck the line, you'd run the risk of ostracization from your relationships as well as loss of occupation, raising a family, personal safety, and potentially your freedom (if you got locked up as "crazy").

It's just essentially the Freudian shaming technique but on a pervasive and all-encompassing level, and has certain predictable influences on the subjects.

If people who finally became visible were offering strong pushback, it's because a lot of force and momentum was needed to overcome the social obstacles squishing them down.

Eventually there would hopefully be a place of social equilibrium, where no one cares and no one on either side really needs to react and the shame is tossed along the wayside.

It does make me wonder though, are there instances in which toxic shame is warranted and necessary? (Those who harm children for example). And what if you are born wired in ways that society (rightly or wrongly) deems you to be shameful? Perhaps that's where religion comes in, to forgive the unforgiveables.

It seems we should have developed criteria for which kind of situations require some kind of shaming to curb destructive behavior, when all else fails.

I always found the ex-gay movement kind of interesting, but only in terms of the psychological dynamics of folks who couldn't overcome the shame but also couldn't generally change their orientation.

Western religion seems to be a less heavy-handed way of keeping people in check versus just having the legal authority punish someone to the point of death or imprisonment. There might also be an attempt to change someone from the inside, but that's very difficult to do and too often religion takes the short road of just trying to force people into compliance. When it becomes merged with the justice system, then things can get really ugly.

 

[Mxx]

People who grow up in a non-religious world / not immersed in a socioreligious environment or who align with their environment probably don't grasp it without a parallel experience. (US society seems more post-Christian, although there's a lot of recent pushback from certain demographics.)

Agreed.

I find it absolutely shocking that the religious institutions like the Catholic Church and their followers have no qualms about inflicting unmerited/undeserved shame on homosexuality or promiscuity, while turning a blind eye to rampant child abuse within their ranks - a practice that truly deserves to be shamed out of existence within society.

 

[Cognisant]

Eventually there would hopefully be a place of social equilibrium, where no one cares and no one on either side really needs to react and the shame is tossed along the wayside.

We're getting there.

Perhaps that's where religion comes in, to forgive the unforgiveables.

Religion, forgiving? On what world are you living?
Well I suppose they forgive pedophiles readily enough

 

[Mxx]

Well I suppose they forgive pedophiles readily enough

Ha, see my post above.

However, consider a paedophile who doesn't act on his impulses or urges, and truly feels ashamed for having them. What is he/she/it to do?

(Reminds me of the guy in the film Little Children who castrates himself). (I could be confusing that with another film, though).

 

[PmjPmj]

Where do you draw the line with this stuff, though? It sounds to me like it's a bit 'mollycoddling'. I refer exclusively to the article in question here - not the subsequent discussion in this thread.

I proffer that it's far more important to go through certain experiences in order to become strong and resilient. The world can be a harsh place; if you venture out into adulthood with a weak mind, you're going to be devoured.

As Jordan Peterson says, "Life is suffering". Learn to deal with your problems. Wrapping people in cotton-wool is a surefire way to foster weakness in a world which requires fortitude.

 

[QuickTwist]

Where do you draw the line with this stuff, though? It sounds to me like it's a bit 'mollycoddling'. I refer exclusively to the article in question here - not the subsequent discussion in this thread.

I proffer that it's far more important to go through certain experiences in order to become strong and resilient. The world can be a harsh place; if you venture out into adulthood with a weak mind, you're going to be devoured.

As Jordan Peterson says, "Life is suffering". Learn to deal with your problems. Wrapping people in cotton-wool is a surefire way to foster weakness in a world which requires fortitude.

Jordan Peterson also believes that its part of being a heroic being to limit needless suffering.

Shame is not at all empowering. Shame doesn't help you recover from setbacks. Recovering from setbacks is an entirely different phenomenon and is based on past experience (namely, that you haven't had horrible shit happen to you as a child) and the individual's natural inclination to recover from setbacks. In short, shame doesn't make you strong, it makes you weak.

 

[Green]

Jordan Peterson is an interesting dude for sure, but some of his conclusions just dont flow with me personally. He proposes that personal progress is always in the place you least want to go. It sounds great poetically, but when I think of someone like that I just imagine an individual with some pretty serious anxiety issues.

I am somewhat with pmj in that, shame is not entirely a cancer that has no purpose.

though I think shame is really easily weaponized today and that fucks people up

@QuickTwist, clarity on setbacks?

 

[QuickTwist]

Jordan Peterson is an interesting dude for sure, but some of his conclusions just dont flow with me personally. He proposes that personal progress is always in the place you least want to go. It sounds great poetically, but when I think of someone like that I just imagine an individual with some pretty serious anxiety issues.

I am somewhat with pmj in that, shame is not entirely a cancer that has no purpose.

though I think shame is really easily weaponized today and that fucks people up

@QuickTwist, clarity on setbacks?

Everyone has setbacks. Anything from not doing everything on you list of things you want to accomplish for the day to being bullied relentlessly. Shame can be something that fosters a setback, but it never actually helps you recover because it is a negative emotion. The best you can do with shame is accept that you are experiencing it and validate it and recover from it. Its like saying that when someone close to you dies that sadness is good because it helps you get over the death. Sadness is the result of the death not what gets you over it. Same principle.

 

[PmjPmj]

shame doesn't make you strong, it makes you weak.

That much is obvious.

What happens when you overcome said shame?

That's why "Horrible shit" is, in a twisted/fucked up way, beneficial to our development - so long as we can summon the courage to overcome the obstacles which have been placed in our path.

There are exceptions to the rule I guess - but they'd have to be pretty extreme.

 

[redbaron]

Depends.

More on this later.

 

[Hadoblado]

Where do you draw the line with this stuff, though? It sounds to me like it's a bit 'mollycoddling'. I refer exclusively to the article in question here - not the subsequent discussion in this thread.

I proffer that it's far more important to go through certain experiences in order to become strong and resilient. The world can be a harsh place; if you venture out into adulthood with a weak mind, you're going to be devoured.

As Jordan Peterson says, "Life is suffering". Learn to deal with your problems. Wrapping people in cotton-wool is a surefire way to foster weakness in a world which requires fortitude.

There's an adaptive range of shame which allows you to be influenced by others.

But the point at which it is internalised makes it entirely unadaptive. Once it's all-pervading, the actor is punished with shame for all actions. At which point, seeing as all actions lead to shame, what is stopping one from not trying at all? And if one doesn't try at all, how does one overcome shame?

Adversity is required, but just like the experience curve in a computer game, you need to be learning from achievable challenge. People disengage when life is too hard for them.

 

[Crystabelle]

https://www.theguardian.com/theobserver/2003/feb/16/features.magazine67

What is your therapist suggesting to help you with this? I always think of INTPs as having these invincible minds that can easily choose a certain thing and compartmentalize the rest. But it appears that several INTPs here suffer from anxiety, depression, and other issues. If you know this information, and you know shame is unhelpful, what keeps you from choosing to think a different way or compartmentalizing the thoughts that lead to your shame? Do you think, like the article mentions, it might be hard-wired in your brain? Do you think you can change?

(Apologies if you shared this already. I didn't see it above.)

 

[PmjPmj]

There's an adaptive range of shame which allows you to be influenced by others.

But the point at which it is internalised makes it entirely unadaptive. Once it's all-pervading, the actor is punished with shame for all actions. At which point, seeing as all actions lead to shame, what is stopping one from not trying at all? And if one doesn't try at all, how does one overcome shame?

Adversity is required, but just like the experience curve in a computer game, you need to be learning from achievable challenge. People disengage when life is too hard for them.

Thanks for the clarification.

It sounds like a pretty horrible place to be.

 

[redbaron]

Hadoblado is just an alt account I post from when I want to appear reasonable.

 

[TheManBeyond]

That much is obvious.

What happens when you overcome said shame?

That's why "Horrible shit" is, in a twisted/fucked up way, beneficial to our development - so long as we can summon the courage to overcome the obstacles which have been placed in our path.

There are exceptions to the rule I guess - but they'd have to be pretty extreme.

i think awful stuff (i dunno, call it parents who demanded too much from you as child or someone who has been sexually abused, or bullied, etc) makes you stronger in general aspects of life, perhaps you are less scared about mundane things and more free, you have a wider perspective of living, you are more aware of yourself.

but in order to be sure about how developed we are we need to compare.
take a guy who's life has been a clean path, no major psycological issues, he's got a cool job and his friends. why are you stronger than him? you are more likely to be eaten up by your own demons and that guy is never going to even understand what suffering is.

so where is all that strenght you gain? nowhere. it's pretty much butterflies and hurricanes in your mind.
u can't see california without marlon brando eyes

 

[PmjPmj]

Your hypothetical scenario is wonky.

If dude #2 is still at the mercy of his demons, he hasn't bested them. Ergo, shit example; the discussion was around people who have successfully overcome their plight... and if it wasn't, it is now >_>

I'll move the goalposts if I want to, damnit!

 

[TheManBeyond]

experiences mold us and nothing dissapears

how beyond you wanna see and how deep you wanna go ¿?

 

[Ex-User (14663)]

Why would you throw away such a valuable gift as that. We don't need less shame and suffering, we need the psychological tools to harness these emotions.

 

[nanook]

and those are? quick, before i delete all of my facebook friends for feeling like i can't endure their judgements any more. those include some of the most understanding people alive today.

 

[Ex-User (14663)]

Like turning it into some constructive force.

I can imagine for example a man like Elon Musk being driven purely by a deep shame.

 

[QuickTwist]

That much is obvious.

What happens when you overcome said shame?

That's why "Horrible shit" is, in a twisted/fucked up way, beneficial to our development - so long as we can summon the courage to overcome the obstacles which have been placed in our path.

There are exceptions to the rule I guess - but they'd have to be pretty extreme.

I agree that we need obstacles to grow, but it is in facing these obstacles and overcoming them which brings growth, which is what I think you are saying. However, it is not the shame itself that is even a catalyst for growth. Reason for this is that one first needs to learn how to overcome said obstacles before he puts them into practice to actually do that. Someone who is riddled with shame, unless they learn how to get themselves out of the hole will stay there indefinitely. The only reason one is able to get out of the hole is because what they have learned about the hole - tools to help one overcome obstacles. Putting someone in a hole without giving them the tools to get out is not going to do them any good. First teach the individual how to get out of the hole, then put him in a hole. When he gets out he will feel accomplished and empowered because he was able to use the tools he was given with the intended use to do exactly what it is/was he was supposed to do. Its much easier to tell someone exactly how to get out of a hole when they are with you so you can demonstrate how to do it instead of them already being in a hole and trying to teach them how to get out.

Does that make sense?

 

[Hadoblado]

Why would you throw away such a valuable gift as that. We don't need less shame and suffering, we need the psychological tools to harness these emotions.

What mechanism of growth does shame serve?

To me it seems like its purpose is to identify behavioural deviations from socionormative or idealistic standards. If this is accepted, then anything beyond what is required to put the actor into motion to fix the issue is unnecessary suffering at best, and crippling malfunction at worst.



In my overly anecdotal experience, strong beliefs surrounding 'coddling' children are reactionary in nature, in response to outliers and idiots who would have no platform but for the attention controversy has provided them. Just where the line between spoiling and abuse resides is a question that needs to be discussed, but IMO it's already too political.

and those are? quick, before i delete all of my facebook friends for feeling like i can't endure their judgements any more. those include some of the most understanding people alive today.

You're a strange one. It's not uncommon though I guess. I'd say deleting your friends is an over-reaction, but I've effectively done the same by just not posting, or making previous posts invisible. Just realise that you might experience shame for deleting them, since they might notice and be offended at some level.

 

[redbaron]

It's so awesome how people who haven't been abused always seem to find the time to tell people who have been abused that they should just 'get over' things or to give really pointless advices for how to deal with it.

Top notch stuff, very glad such people feel the need to inject their opinions in these sorts of discussions without any actual effort to understand it first.

Keep rocking on guys.

 

[Reluctantly]

I agree that we need obstacles to grow, but it is in facing these obstacles and overcoming them which brings growth, which is what I think you are saying. However, it is not the shame itself that is even a catalyst for growth. Reason for this is that one first needs to learn how to overcome said obstacles before he puts them into practice to actually do that. Someone who is riddled with shame, unless they learn how to get themselves out of the hole will stay there indefinitely. The only reason one is able to get out of the hole is because what they have learned about the hole - tools to help one overcome obstacles. Putting someone in a hole without giving them the tools to get out is not going to do them any good. First teach the individual how to get out of the hole, then put him in a hole. When he gets out he will feel accomplished and empowered because he was able to use the tools he was given with the intended use to do exactly what it is/was he was supposed to do. Its much easier to tell someone exactly how to get out of a hole when they are with you so you can demonstrate how to do it instead of them already being in a hole and trying to teach them how to get out.

Does that make sense?

But if someone else is there to show you how to get out, it's not really your hole then. It's their hole because it's their responsibility to get you out - not your own.

 

[Crystabelle]

It's so awesome how people who haven't been abused always seem to find the time to tell people who have been abused that they should just 'get over' things or to give really pointless advices for how to deal with it.

Top notch stuff, very glad such people feel the need to inject their opinions in these sorts of discussions without any actual effort to understand it first.

Keep rocking on guys.

I've had the same concern while reading through this thread. There seems to be a disconnect here. Is this a theoretical discussion or a realistic one? On paper, "get over it, use the tools, what hasn't killed you should only make you stronger" makes sense. In reality, people who haven't suffered through it, can't truly comprehend all the factors involved and although I'm sure everyone here means well, I find many responses a bit lacking and overly simplistic.

Still, it's interesting to read everyone's opinions and I think there is some helpful and encouraging information that's been shared -- even by those who maybe don't seem to really get it.

 

[washti]

You can kill shame by rejecting socio-normative definition of "hole" as true to you.
If you stop believe X behaviour/belief as requaied - shame disappear. People who still preach to you sound now like lunatics. Social norms are nothing but their means to whatever ends. Previously internalized assumptions, picked up from others, are cut out and from now become alien notions. Others' truth is not longer yours. If you of course know that you can do that and have strengh for resistance of social influance. Outcast but without shame.

Also redbaron post.

 

[PmjPmj]

Does that make sense?

Honestly? Not so much. I struggle with the intricacies of these things because I'm all but entirely dead on the inside.

Perhaps I haven't encountered that 'something' which really knocks me on my arse, but I have dealt with a lot of shit in my life. Christ, at age 7 I was dealing with stuff I wouldn't wish on anybody.

Whatever the case, I hope you find a way to mitigate your suffering. Always feel free to PM me if you need to vent. I can't promise I'll be able to offer pertinent advice, but I can promise that I'll read / consider / get back to you. I've found in the past that sharing my thoughts is cathartic. I don't know about you, but verbalising where I'm at allows me to frame things and, often, leads to new insights.

 

[Jennywocky]

I've had the same concern while reading through this thread. There seems to be a disconnect here. Is this a theoretical discussion or a realistic one? On paper, "get over it, use the tools, what hasn't killed you should only make you stronger" makes sense. In reality, people who haven't suffered through it, can't truly comprehend all the factors involved and although I'm sure everyone here means well, I find many responses a bit lacking and overly simplistic.

Yeah. It pretty much boils down to that. What hasn't killed you can make you stronger... but sometimes it just kills you and/or just disables you so that it's difficult to get past -- that's the more realistic thing. There's the old adage that history is dictated by the "winner" and that's the same here... you only ever hear from the survivors because all of the non-survivors never live to tell their story.

I've been through some horrid pervasive shit of my own for years on end. I am a survivor and in some ways I feel very strong, but I still have some lingering baggage. Also, as a weird side example... I broke my ankle when I was 12. I'm much older now, and my ankle healed... but it's not as strong as it was before it was broken; if I overuse it, it starts to ache. Did breaking it make me stronger, or would it be stronger if it had never been broken? When you have poison flowing in your veins, you might survive it and even build up an immunity over time with prolonged exposure... but prolonged exposure will also probably do damage.

Realism versus the philosophical ideal. People need some kind of happy medium... you want to be able to understand suffering, have some hardship to overcome to build up your endurance and tenacity, but at some point a helpful challenge can also become destructive and debilitating and waste a lot of your life in a fight when you might have been able to accomplish more investing the energy in something else.

Life is more complex and muddled than the self-help aphorisms suggest.

I find it absolutely shocking that the religious institutions like the Catholic Church and their followers have no qualms about inflicting unmerited/undeserved shame on homosexuality or promiscuity, while turning a blind eye to rampant child abuse within their ranks - a practice that truly deserves to be shamed out of existence within society.

Yeah, pretty crazy, isn't it? And it's not just child abuse, there's other crap that they've decided is acceptable if you have enough money or affluence in their subculture. So, destructive shaming if you have something they consider the "wrong vice" and a free pass for others if you have the right social or religious credentials. But the goal was never to heal/improve, it just tends to be a power thing.

 

[Minuend]

I can relate to that phenomenon somewhat. Turning it into a form of self release and growth is not easy. It goes against the very nature of the concept itself. The nature of toxic shame is the fundamental belief you're worthless, you should dislike/ hate what you are at your very core. Seeking validation or help from others is shameful as well. Toxic shame 'defends' the individual against the very methods that would alleviate it.

(Edit: Rectify (tv show) revolves around shame in the main character, kinda, it's interesting, worth a watch)

 

[Ex-User (14663)]

All I can say, folks, is that it feels nice live a lush life. Harmonious childhood, luxurious circumstances, champagne for lunch every day, all that stuff.

 

[QuickTwist]

But if someone else is there to show you how to get out, it's not really your hole then. It's their hole because it's their responsibility to get you out - not your own.

Doesn't matter who's hole it is if you are in it and trying to get out.

 

[QuickTwist]

You can kill shame by rejecting socio-normative definition of "hole" as true to you.
If you stop believe X behaviour/belief as requaied - shame disappear. People who still preach to you sound now like lunatics. Social norms are nothing but their means to whatever ends. Previously internalized assumptions, picked up from others, are cut out and from now become alien notions. Others' truth is not longer yours. If you of course know that you can do that and have strengh for resistance of social influance. Outcast but without shame.

Also redbaron post.

This actually does make quite a bit of sense. I have in a way reconstructed what I consider "normal" to the ends that I don't necessarily feel shame or embarrassment for the same things that I used to. Like for example, I feel zero shame at all talking about my diagnosis'. That said, there is still a root there that is difficult to deal with.

 

[QuickTwist]

Honestly? Not so much. I struggle with the intricacies of these things because I'm all but entirely dead on the inside.

Perhaps I haven't encountered that 'something' which really knocks me on my arse, but I have dealt with a lot of shit in my life. Christ, at age 7 I was dealing with stuff I wouldn't wish on anybody.

Whatever the case, I hope you find a way to mitigate your suffering. Always feel free to PM me if you need to vent. I can't promise I'll be able to offer pertinent advice, but I can promise that I'll read / consider / get back to you. I've found in the past that sharing my thoughts is cathartic. I don't know about you, but verbalising where I'm at allows me to frame things and, often, leads to new insights.

First off, I don't at all doubt that you have been through the ringer (not because you seem dysfunctional or anything [you actually seem to have your head on straighter than many people on this forum]).

I talked about a nature tendency to bounce back from setbacks. This is your nature. Maybe shit just doesn't affect you in the same way it might affect someone else. Maybe you just naturally have a healthier way to compartmentalize. I have heard Jordan Peterson say that high IQ people deal with that kind of shit a bit better than low IQ people. That disregards personality, but its something worth thinking about.

Also, I don't consider you to be "insensitive" for your perspective. I think you are just calling it like you see it.

But getting to the point, it has a lot to do with childhood. Obviously every child is different and learns how to cope with varying degrees of effectiveness. If a child has been through a bit more shit than your average child, but the child sucks are coping, then they are going to have more psychological problems in their adult life unless in between they learn how to cope better. That's really all I was trying to say.

 

[nanook]

If you stop believe X behaviour/belief as requaied - shame disappear.eople who still preach to you sound now like lunatics.

for that to work you only have to give up all relationship with people who are "preaching lunatics". i started doing this when i was two years old. you can avoid actively engaging in relationship but not avoid its existence because that would get you killed. and the more you avoid relationship, the worse they shame you. the diagnostic label for this self-protective behavior is typically schizoid personality disorder. (unless you are the aggressively antisocial type)

shame is a power thing. power is real and so most shame is tied in with reality. only way out would be to eliminate the power of others in your life, obviously not something everyone has the skill to accomplish. it would also take a survival strategy that does not involve getting power over others either (such as passive aggressive extortion - asking/waiting for help, thereby provoking guilt in those who are not willing or unable to help), because that is giving them power to respond and shame you for doing that*.

*"The aim must be to help people acknowledge what they feel ashamed of and learn how to give it up."

its also a matter of conditioned apprehension and anticipation of power related conflicts, the assumption that people's judgements are going to be most egocentric, most narcissistic, least compassionate, as were the judgements of the parent who has conditioned you to feel and perceive like this. this learned attention can imho not be unlearned, except maybe with spiritual awakening.

 

[Shadowlands97]

Just learn to be like The Thing. Say screw you to everyone. Assimilate everything.

 

[QuickTwist]

@Nanook, what do you say to this:

If one learns to turn shame on its head, and readjusts what one feels shame about, the effect will then be felt on others. Given its effect on others, given that they know that this person will not feel shame from the same things as the rest of society, don't you think this will deter those that would normally shame the individual because they would know it would have no effect?

 

[Black Rose]

I have felt inadequate for most of my life. I built up an inferiority complex. Frome Christianity I had my ID in conflict with my Super ego and this increased my shadow. My therapist asked me if I was homicidal or suicidal. I said I had those feelings but never act on them. What happens is I disassociate from reality and am completely inside my anger or sadness. I said I hold myself from the inside. I feel constricted when I am angry and think about the person who I know in real life (never people on the internet) and I feel like I have to twist them and crush them. After the anger goes away I know I would never do that. When I am sad I feel so vulnerable that the smallest thing destroys my composure. I once hurt someone's feelings and I could not function I was so sad.

(I cry every time I write posts like this)
(Crying because I am a bad person and not creative/smart but inferiority)

All of this is the superego and the helplessness of so many failers in my life I accumulate inferiority.

 

[nanook]

the original purpose of shame is so that you weakling go out of the way of the alpha monkey as if it was your own will to do so. if you act without shame, the alpha monkey will have to break your neck. people may give up shaming you verbally, but you depend on the opportunities they provide and they simply won't provide any of those, so you are dead. try being a fruitarian man and see how women run the other way, including fruitarian women, because men (from the perspective of women) are expected to be socially integrated, they are not allowed to just walk away from society. if you can transition into a higher society with different values, that is fine, but simply walking away is your death. the passive shizoid becomes a bum, the pro-active antisocial character goes to jail. few get away with the freedom of alphas and that is because they know how to be integrated and free at the same time. they feel free within the boundaries of their integration style. most betas are terribly shame driven but deflect their shame onto others in disgusting ways, so all their shame is projected onto the gammas, onto people like me.

doctors tell you, that you can heal by doing a chemo therapy which will kill you but you can only heal by removing the cause of disease from your livestyle, not by suppressing symptoms. therapists tell you, you can heal your mind, by transmuting a bunch of feelings or changing believes, but you can only heal by removing interpersonal insanity from your livestyle, from concrete private and professional relations. coaches tell you, you can heal your lifestyle by learning new skills, which would only seem plausible, if you had a rigid vision of the perfect life in mind, but you can only learn a few skills that are a perfect match for who you are and not whatever that coach expects of you and you cant live the live of your coach, hence your relationship with the coach is actually just more insanity in your lifestyle. we can probably only remove the insanity from our lifestyle right now, with the abilities you have, if we are willing to simplify, instead of fixing, of adding workarounds. we can not invent a diet that is better than fruit and lettuce, even though cultivated fruit is not perfect. our current inventions are toxic (protein powders etc). we may not be able to create a lifestyle that is better than plainly existing, like the elderly do, minus their poor health. but we may be able to cut out all the insanity. insanity comes from striving for the impossible, for the love of our parents, the love of other deluded self-concerned people.

the general pattern here is recognizing the interconnectedness of things. the autonomous individual is an illusion. he can not thrive without proper integration into the environment. integration is not achieved by a stupid manipulation that does not have the whole in mind. you suppress one thing over here and over there there will manifest some excess. you isolate to escape their demands -> you just become resentful and paranoid. alarmed about this you suppress your paranoia -> now you become the doormat of their hate. manipulating feelings is based in ignorance and ignorance produces suffering. if you can not change the whole picture, you remain stuck. what do we have to do to mix the whole picture up, to give live a chance of reassembling all the pieces in a more sane way? if we try to abandon and destroy the current situation, because its completely insane, we simply suppress the transpersonal part of our intelligence, that can hold a whole wold together and everything becomes worse, less integrated. the goal can not be a specific modification that is imagined ahead of time. sane integration is too complex to be planned out entirely. i think the mixing up can only come about from rejecting particular moves that have an insane signature to them and trying something else instead. it requires an intuition, informed by insights about what behavioral patterns are insane.

 

[QuickTwist]

I have felt inadequate for most of my life. I built up an inferiority complex. Frome Christianity I had my ID in conflict with my Super ego and this increased my shadow. My therapist asked me if I was homicidal or suicidal. I said I had those feelings but never act on them. What happens is I disassociate from reality and am completely inside my anger or sadness. I said I hold myself from the inside. I feel constricted when I am angry and think about the person who I know in real life (never people on the internet) and I feel like I have to twist them and crush them. After the anger goes away I know I would never do that. When I am sad I feel so vulnerable that the smallest thing destroys my composure. I once hurt someone's feelings and I could not function I was so sad.

(I cry every time I write posts like this)
(Crying because I am a bad person and not creative/smart but inferiority)

All of this is the superego and the helplessness of so many failers in my life I accumulate inferiority.

I don't think you are a bad person, AK. I think you are actually quite brave. I know when I or someone else says something a bit critical to you, I know you deal with that very well, at least outwardly. That is a sign of character. Bad people don't have character like that.

I also think you are one of the most creative people I know, and I am not just saying that. You mind thinks differently than other peoples and that is nothing to be ashamed of because that is a strength all in itself.

I also think you have a really good grasp for knowledge. You seem to be able to understand a great many things. When you talk in your videos I am always intrigued by the things you talk about even though I may not say that directly. So I think you are smart as well.

 

[TheManBeyond]

I have felt inadequate for most of my life. I built up an inferiority complex. Frome Christianity I had my ID in conflict with my Super ego and this increased my shadow. My therapist asked me if I was homicidal or suicidal. I said I had those feelings but never act on them. What happens is I disassociate from reality and am completely inside my anger or sadness. I said I hold myself from the inside. I feel constricted when I am angry and think about the person who I know in real life (never people on the internet) and I feel like I have to twist them and crush them. After the anger goes away I know I would never do that. When I am sad I feel so vulnerable that the smallest thing destroys my composure. I once hurt someone's feelings and I could not function I was so sad.

(I cry every time I write posts like this)
(Crying because I am a bad person and not creative/smart but inferiority)

All of this is the superego and the helplessness of so many failers in my life I accumulate inferiority.

i feel you man, sometimes i feel all of what you mentioned there too. just try to not be so hard on yourself.
hugs.

 

[Reluctantly]

Doesn't matter who's hole it is if you are in it and trying to get out.

It's not a therapist's job to get their patients out of holes. It's not their job to show patient's how to get out of their holes. It's not their job to get in the hole and help a patient get out. It's not their job to become someone's crutch or saving grace. It's not their job.

It is their job to open someone's mind to understanding their problems and the myriad of ways that their problems can be approached and solved. But it's not their job to solve or even tell people how to solve their own problems. Then they'd just be a crutch; and that's not their job.

 

[Crystabelle]

...It's not their job to show patient's how to get out of their holes.

Really? I thought this was pretty much exactly what the their job entailed. At least that how my therapists have tried to help me.

 

[Black Rose]

My new therapist is much better than the previous one.
She understands what I say and is objective in a sympathetic way.

 

[Reluctantly]

Really? I thought this was pretty much exactly what the their job entailed. At least that how my therapists have tried to help me.

It shouldn't be. That doesn't empower the patient to solve their own problems. It creates a reliance on the therapist instead. And the overreaching goal of all therapy is to not need therapy.

 

[PmjPmj]

Studied psychology and counselling for a while.

There are (obviously) different types of therapy, but yeah - the whole point is to get the client to realise that they are able to sort their own shit out. Ethics, and all that.

 

[Crystabelle]

It shouldn't be. That doesn't empower the patient to solve their own problems. It creates a reliance on the therapist instead. And the overreaching goal of all therapy is to not need therapy.

All of my therapist have guided me toward more positive behaviors and taught me positive tools to use which I believe is part of a therapist job. To me, this is showing me how to get out of a hole & helping me to do so.

 

[redbaron]

Imagine if different therapists didn't adhere to strict abstract ideologies in the process of counselling, instead opting for a combination of methods and approaches dependent on the specific needs of the client!!!!!

That would be revolutionary!!!!!!!!!

Why do I keep reading this thread.

 

[Crystabelle]

Imagine if different therapists didn't adhere to strict abstract ideologies in the process of counselling, instead opting for a combination of methods and approaches dependent on the specific needs of the client!!!!!.

Yeah, I understand that. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the previous post or arguing semantics. I just found the blanket statement that it's not a therapist job to help you out of a hole surprising. I'm not sure why therapists exist if not to help people.

Ultimately, yes, only I can make my life better and I have to take the responsibility for that. I think that was perhaps the point of the previous post.