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My theory on life

Dentan

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Revised Title: My current life view
My Path: agnostic in the middle/upper class individualist westernized culture

I randomly get impulses to organize my thoughts
and see things with an order and structure

note this is more for those who gather information though intuition (as opposed to sensing)
and make decisions based on thinking (as opposed to feeling)
since they think of things through a system

the problem with a system is that
once you subscribe to it
you can only look at things through it
and you can't truly be objective

the problem with no system
is that if your not strong at sensing and feeling
you're not going to have things figured out
and your most likely going to act like a fool

the compromise is that your system has to be constantly improving
so that you can have the best results

Contents

1. Existentialism
2. Goal in life
____a. Efficient Mindset
____b. Self actualization
3. Maintaining mindset
____a. Defense mechanisms
____b. Locus of control
________i. Pros and Cons
________ii. Objectivity
____c. Faulty mindsets
____d. Intention
4. Morality
____a. Concept
____b. Rules
5. Social Hierarchy
____a. Concept
____b. Shooting the Shit
____c. Snobbery
____d. Morality
____e. Observations
____f. Theory
____g. Alpha's
____h. Self-interest
____i. Dogma
6. A Pure Life
____a. Concept
____b. Interactions
____c. Games
____d. Truth
____e. Social Hierarchy
____f. Shallowness
7. What Holds People Back
____a. Faulty Mindsets
____b. Not Confronting Insecurities
____c. Pride and Assumptions
____d. Projection
8. Conclusion
____a. Working on yourself
____b. Myer-Briggs
____c. Security
____d. People don't like change
____e. Work on your mindset

____1. Existentialism
as humans its our responsibility to give everything meaning
the world, our life, our actions, our opinions, etc..
even though its sorta absurd because there's no definite meaning to anything,
there's only perspective
although ideas/ideals exist
so you can attach meaning to why your actions matter to others

____2. Goal in life
ones goal in life should be to get fulfillment from within,
which is based off of having a good mindset and understanding on how people interact
and being open to experiences, opportunities, and growth

self actualized people "have the tendency to actualize,
as much as possible, [the organism's] individual capacities"

common traits of those self actualized (got from wiki):
They embrace reality and facts rather than denying truth.
They are spontaneous.
They are interested in solving problems.
They are accepting of themselves and also others and lack prejudice.

Everybody has their own mindset to the world, it could be considered their attitude towards it
its starts with their genes and then all the experiences they go through

a polished mindset tends to get you to where what you want to be
a polished mindset involves having all your power come from inside you and having self control
a polished mindset involves realizing when you have the power that you don't have to show it
its how strong of a grip you have on life
that your in control of things and can deal with whatever's coming your way
it includes being pragmatic and having good knowledge acquisition skills

____3. Maintaing mindset
defense mechanisms are psychological strategies
to cope with reality and to maintain self-image.
Healthy persons normally use different defenses throughout life.
An ego defense mechanism becomes negative when its persistent use leads to maladaptive behavior
such that the physical and/or mental health of the individual is adversely affected.
the purpose of the Ego Defense Mechanisms is to protect the mind/self/ego from anxiety, social sanctions or to provide a refuge from a situation with which one cannot currently cope.
check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_mechanism#Categorization_of_Defense_Mechanisms

a person with an internal locus of control
feels they're in control of their reality
they act from within and if other people don't agree its the others fault
they only have to rationalize to themselves
they're living their life by their own standards

a person with an external locus of control
feels that their reality has control over them
they act based on how they feel others will perceive their actions
and if people don't agree with them they change their actions to fit others approval
they will try to rationalize to the crowd
that their opinions and actions were correct
if the majority believes it, it must be true

they both have their pro and cons
it matters how their environment accepts peoples personal standards
but there will always be people out there that won't accept you

based on your persons locus of control
you can be close minded and judgmental
and depending on your upbringing,
you can only worthwhile if they fit society's standards
or be the opposite and think your only worthwhile if your an individual

what you gotta realize is that
there's just a bunch of different systems
which makes an us vs them mentality
and promotes there side as being right
and the side who's actions promote results which you feel is better
you'll perceive that side as better

in my opinion it better to just be yourself and improve based on your standards
than trying to improve yourself to fit the standards of others
as long as your standards aren't selfish, foolish or stupid

faulty mindsets can cause rips to the social fabric and spin things
although certain mindset's are comfortable with doing that as well
the best way to classify if someone has faulty mindset
if the mindset they have
could be replaced with a mindset that would help them get through life easier

oblivious people tend to have some negative impact on the social fabric
they can't see there shadow (check out Carl Jung's concept of the shadow)
and use too many defense mechanisms
they are rough around the edges and it hurts them

a self aware person would be considered dynamic.
an oblivious person would be considered static.

Realize that most people act out of a good intention, very few act out with malicious intent
you should try to analyze what people's good intentions
and realize its not so black and white
that being said, its still definitely possible to be challenged by people (check out section 5)

____4. Morality

morality plays a huge role to your mindset
people follow their idea of what right and wrong is
everybody's moral compass is a little different
due to their upbringing, current environment and genetics.
morality is an abstract concept that we apply to life,
certain morality systems are more valuable to certain groups of people
but generally your morality will be attached to your lifestyle, and when one starts to change the other one slides with it
note I'm not advocating nihilism or saying that all ideas are "equal".
certain morals are necessary for humanity to prosper
I'm progressive and fine with humanism

I'm not saying you shouldn't follow rules either,
but you gotta realize rules are made by people for certain reasons (some better than others), they're not necessarily the guideline to life.
you have the choice to follow external rules or to disregard them,
if you get caught breaking a rule,
the system will give you a consequence for breaking its rule.
But you don't have to be ingrained in any system.
You have the power as an individual to do and follow whatever you want for your own reasons.
Just be aware that people will treat you accordingly

____5. Social Hierarchy

all animals have a social hierarchy
humans are just more complex
but how you go through your life is a major factor contributing to it
some people care about it, others don't, other play it off that they don't

a lot of people shoot the shit/like to play around for fun
its generally about appearing to come out on the top at the end
some do it because its fun to see an opportunity to be witty or clever and use it
some feel its manly to compete
while some do it because they have the need for power
to be superior than others
some enjoy a mix^

there are people out there that try to look at everyone equally
but most people practice snobbery
the view that some people are inherently inferior to him or her for any one of a variety of reasons
including real or supposed intellect, wealth, education, ancestry, etc.
Their view is usually closely aligned to there place in life
Most people that have the ability to be a snob acts like one
since they aren't totally secure and like having power over people.

it really depends on how your actions affect your reality
if you feel like your better/worse than people but don't act upon it, who really cares what you believe
but most people tend to act on there beliefs since there beliefs define reality for them
if they can withstand being corrupted by power then its fine for them to be a snob

i've noticed
the lower (one perceived as the lower status) can play off the way the higher (one perceived as the higher status) acts as insecurity or compensation.
while the higher can play off his actions in multiple ways; either claim the they simply like competing and winning (its what men do), that their just playing around and having fun(life just a game), or just play off the lower status by attacking a characteristic or action him.

its fine to play off the others side, people like the feeling that there side is right
but generally if your always playing someone or their side off
its because your uncomfortable with them
which means your not totally comfortable about your self/side

dudes (whether alpha or not) with an offensive mindset play off other alphas
they look for an error/common perception of the alpha and use that
whether it be them being a tool, dick, ass or douchebag (for guys)
basically they try to find how the alpha faults in playing his action off and use that
people without an offensive mindset simply have respect for other alphas

along this line of thought
(almost) everybody has an incentive for doing stuff
(almost) everybody acts out of there best interest
most people acting altruistic do it
because they're getting benefits from acting that way

how people accept a person
is based off how well the person can present themselves to the world
(or play off if life's just a big game to them)

if someones devoting their life to a cause, an idea or an ideology
you have to ask, are they doing it because they'd truly give their life up for it?
(and if they would give there life up for it, are they just doing it because of what they get in the afterlife?)
is there any advantage for them to follow it (even if the advantage is just adding meaning to their life)?
its easy for people to convince themselves something when they feel it fits there needs

if someone is indoctrinated with a system at a very young age
its very hard for them to look at things from outside the system they had
and the longer they follow their system
the more they wrap their head around it and can use logic and ideas to defend themselves

its a very tricky situation
i feel the only people that don't act out of self interest
are those who are totally selfless and live a pure life (very rare people too)


____6. A Pure Life

the most pure way to live your life
would be to love your neighbor as yourself
and not hate/challenge people
be a good example, do your duty
never need praise, approval or sympathy
keep the power inside

I feel its best to be humanistic and pragmatic with interactions
to act in a way to benefit yourself and everyone around you
instead of just looking out for yourself

You shouldn't play many games with people
Most people can't stand these types of people
"Many games are played most intensely by disturbed people; generally speaking, the more disturbed they are, the harder they play."

Generally the best option is just to tell the truth
and let people deal with it (whether or not they can handle it)
Although sometimes you can rationalize lying to closeminded people:
They're not willing to think objectively and look at other peoples paths in life
Its not because I feel that I knew better than them,
just because my life experiences and theirs don’t match up
our paths in life are different
Although if you get caught in this type of lie,
even though you had good intentions,
it discredits you and your opinion.

its best to just not get involved in power play /people's games
don't try to be a higher than others, that's not cool
only try to work on yourself to make yourself better
if someone tries to lower you don't let them
and possibly make them not want to try it again
although a defense that practices retaliation will probably fuel to the fire
since many people that practice offense do it

the best way to handle's someone game
involves you not playing it/ being better than it
(depending on the situation)
if you don't play it you can be played off by them as a bitch for not competing
but your in the right by being the better man and not entering their reality
although sometimes in life your forced into someone elses game
in which case you should be better than it if you can
if you can't do anything or don't want to put the effort into it (depending on how competetive you are)
just shrug it off and realize it doesn't really matter, its all in there head

for some people if you challenge their view on the social hierarchy
they'll try extra hard to bring you down
although it should be noted that not everybody practices offense because of insecurity
just that insecurity can be easily viewed in most people that practice offense

some people will even go as far as to treat you in a way
to try to feel like they are better than you:
I'd call these people power trippers/tools
they may not say high to you unless you first say high to them
(although some people are just shy and awkward)
they may overplay, spin or twist your small mistakes or ambiguous actions.
they might play mind games with you
they might give you negative cues (such as being unfriendly)
they most likely will gossip about you and
try to shatter your composure and get a response from you

the best way to deal with this is depends on the situation
especially on how often you have to interact with them
and what their reaction to your reaction to their prodding at you will be
just don't let people that attack you win
don't give in to external influences using negative tactics,
deal with it it if you have to
defend yourself, be assertive and tactful when they're pushing your limits
but don't let the insignificant stuff they do bother you,
(don't sweat the small stuff)
if you stay composed
they'll be the ones trying too hard and getting no results

some people care too much about
social status/wealth/physical attraction
and only pursue that in your life
(there's nothing wrong with caring about it and acting upon it,
but when you feel that's the only thing that matters
you stop caring about other people and turn into a douchebag)
only to end up being brought down/ alienated from everyone
you have to have a strong moral code
(love, truth and honor for the win)
""nothing really matters unless you have a code"
in the end, physical appeal, money, and high-ranking status will all fade away
that's why, in the end, all that matters is your self image
which is based off of your code
be wary of shallow people, they don't realize this
and the more you hang out with shallow people,
the more they influence you and the more shallow you will become

____7. What Holds People Back

Most people are hold back in life
because of faulty mindsets;
they have negative thoughts
and are too hard on themselves
they possibly also letting external influences define them
and hold a negative structure of the world
(which creates a self fulfilling prophecy)

they're also not willing to look at their flaws
since their flaws are a sore spot to them
they rather be in denial and rationalize things
or use other defense mechanisms
and stay static as opposed to changing

its best to admit your wrong when you realize you are.
sticking to your guns no matter what is distasteful
its also good to making less assumptions about things
or at least realize when you make assumptions at times
(to get by, like the first impression of someone)
but assumptions can also distance you from the truth of the matter
and make an ass out of u and me :)

some people only say negative stuff about other people
could be because their insecure about themselves, uncomfortable/disturbed at the person (for many different reasons), could just be because their cynical
or they could just be having a bad day and taking out there aggression

some people only say good stuff about people
maybe they only only see the good in people and are ignorant
maybe they want to be perceived as the above type of person (well minus the ignorance)
maybe they were raised not to say bad stuff about people
could be because they're afraid what the person would think if they heard what they said
or they could just be having a good day and not caring about a persons flaws

you also gotta realize that you can't always define someone by a few actions of thiers
people have there good and bad days,
you might think there something that isn't actually there
because of the foul mood they were feeling
or an error they made

____8. Conclusion

the key to working on yourself
is believing inside that you are the way you want to be
which causes you to act like it and get better at it
(its like learning to ride a bike)

you want to become self aware and objective
I'd suggest to start this process by checking Myer-Briggs
Myer-Briggs is an extensive personality test that I feel works thanks to determinism
If human reactions are just based on our stimuli and how it affects the chemicals in our brains
Then it makes sense that people have different levels of certain chemicals and neurotransmitters
Which act in a certain way based on the situation (and can possibly be changed by lessons and experience over time)
But since its based on a system, there's a structure and order to it.
And if there's a structure and order to it, there are certain patterns present.

What Myer-Briggs does is tell you your patterns of preference to your 8 functions.
Whether you have an extroverted or introverted attitude.
Whether you gather information through sensing or intuition.
Whether you make decision through thinking or feeling.
And whether you have a more judging or perceiving lifestyle.
That being said, your environment and upbringing have a huge factor to how you act, but the whole nature vs nurture argument is for another time and place.

The idea that using your Myer-Briggs profile as an excuse for everything you do is wack.
But to become a better individual you must 'know thyself'
Until you know yourself, you aren't aware of flaws and you can't work on trying to improve them.

Your security should be based off the feeling that you can handle whatever's coming your way
You start to get this when you have things figured out

don't let people don't hold you back from improvement
people will do that because they don't like change
they'll try to bring you down once you start to work on yourself
especially if you over compensate
but being dynamic and changing helps you learn,
being static keeps you in your place
better to learn the skills and failing at first
than never trying to improve

realize that everything you do can be used against you not only by assholes and bitches
but by your friends too
people that don't accept/ are jealous of you will (try to) play your off
or people with a high level of social rejection sensitivity
will start to view you as a something your not
they'll put you in a box
taking away your humanity
and put their aggression on you
don't let them get to you
and be the better man

you want to improve your mindset to get the best results to where you want to go in life
its also very useful to never be satisfied with yourself, this will drive you to constantly improve.
 
Last edited:

snowqueen

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Blimey - I thought I held the record on long posts but this takes the biscuit!!

This is an interesting collection of wisdoms - I guess this is your personal philosophy? I see Maslow, Freud, Bandura, Fromm, Ellis, Beck, Christ amongst others. Hey - it's a good start :-)

I do take exception to this one though:
Most people are hold back in life
because of faulty mindsets;
they have negative thoughts
and are too hard on themselves
they possibly also letting external influences define them
and hold a negative structure of the world
(which creates a self fulfilling prophecy)

I think the majority of people on the planet are held back by poverty, harsh environments and a lack of clean drinking water. Your philosophy is too individualistic - too rooted in a view of Man as separate from the social, cultural, historical and environmental factors which press upon all of us. It is the kind of philosophy that ends with us being told it's all our fault we are not beautiful/happy/successful/etc etc as if life were that simple.
 

Dentan

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Yeah its my personal philosophy

As for your take on that,
its true that your environment does hold you back
and that my philosophy is too individualistic
but there's a reason for that

if you can blame your faults on external reasons,
you'll be able to make excuses
and you'll feel fine with your faults

but if you feel you have total control over your life
you won't be able to make excuses
you'll feel discontent
and you can use that feeling to get drive
and push yourself

whether or not you succeed
its still better to try
if you don't try
you'll always wonder
what would have happened if I did
 

snowqueen

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Yeah its my personal philosophy

As for your take on that,
its true that your environment does hold you back
and that my philosophy is too individualistic
but there's a reason for that

if you can blame your faults on external reasons,
you'll be able to make excuses
and you'll feel fine with your faults

but if you feel you have total control over your life
you won't be able to make excuses
you'll feel discontent
and you can use that feeling to get drive
and push yourself

whether or not you succeed
its still better to try
if you don't try
you'll always wonder
what would have happened if I did

Ok I can see the merit in that - but I'm not sure about the having 'total control' - yes, you won't be so tempted to make excuses but if things don't go the way you planned because of external factors then you might unreasonably blame yourself believing you should have been able to control everything.

But I totally agree that it's always better to try!
 

Toad

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I agree with some points in your post. But I don't think you have enough life experience for me to listen to you.
 

Dentan

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Whatever you say man...
 

Toad

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Whatever you say man...

You want us to read your post and gain deep knowledge from them, but so far you have refused to admit you may be wrong in anyway and discourage our criticism of your "theories".

I post my theories about life all the time too. People criticize my thinking and I am willing to change my ideas if I find what they say is logical. That is what a discussion is all about.

What you are doing is just preaching to us.
 

Dentan

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You want us to read your post and gain deep knowledge from them, but so far you have refused to admit you may be wrong in anyway and discourage our criticism of your "theories".

I post my theories about life all the time too. People criticize my thinking and I am willing to change my ideas if I find what they say is logical. That is what a discussion is all about.

What you are doing is just preaching to us.

I don't want you guys to gain deep knowledge from my posts
All I'm doing is posting them there to show to others
and let them make of it what they want

You keep on making assumptions and imply stuff that's not there
its very annoying
I'm not refusing to admit that I may be wrong,
I'm just defending my views with logic

I am willing to change my ideas if I find what they say is logical.
But you just saying
"I don't think you have enough life experience for me to listen to you."
Isn't constructive or adding at all to the discussion
Its just you with your "I'm better than you" attitude
 

Toad

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From reading your posts "I don't think you have enough life experience for me to listen to you."

I think that is very constructive. Think about it. Maybe you ARE too young and MAYBE just MAYBE you are incorrect?

Anything can be constructive if you think about it in a way that can be constructive to you. That's one of my life lessons to you sir.
 

Dentan

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No, your not adding any input to what I said or saying anything I can gain from it.
Sure I realize I'm younger than you, but the fact that you've been around longer doesn't help me at all.
What your saying is true, but its not going to promote any development to my theory because I can't change the amount of time I've been around.
Your discrediting what I'm saying due to my age.
Even though most of the stuff I have on there is based on other philosophies and systems.
 

Toad

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I shouldn't say anything about your age. I'm sorry. I'm actually talking about your experience and maturity level.
 

Jennywocky

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I think the majority of people on the planet are held back by poverty, harsh environments and a lack of clean drinking water. Your philosophy is too individualistic - too rooted in a view of Man as separate from the social, cultural, historical and environmental factors which press upon all of us. It is the kind of philosophy that ends with us being told it's all our fault we are not beautiful/happy/successful/etc etc as if life were that simple.

I think he's approaching it from a typical individualist westernized culture where there is very little physical need in the middle and upper classes, and just hasn't yet realized how much of humankind doesn't have the luxury of abstracted thought because they are more focused on daily survival.

But I did agree with his basic premise at least in within the confines of a privileged society where environmental factors are not overtly holding people back from actualization.

Again, his thoughts are very abstracted... basically when someone has a lot of "Alone thinking time" without a lot of practical life experience with people in the external world, which usually forces thinking to become more concrete and practical.

I don't want you guys to gain deep knowledge from my posts
All I'm doing is posting them there to show to others
and let them make of it what they want

You keep on making assumptions and imply stuff that's not there
its very annoying
I'm not refusing to admit that I may be wrong,
I'm just defending my views with logic

I am willing to change my ideas if I find what they say is logical.
But you just saying
"I don't think you have enough life experience for me to listen to you."
Isn't constructive or adding at all to the discussion
Its just you with your "I'm better than you" attitude


Actually, I just find you a little overwhelming.

You've only been here a very very short time and you dumping lots of information in the forums.

This is usually the behavior (as I've seen time and again) of someone with less experience but who has spent a large part of their lives building theories and thinking through everything in lieu of experience, and then is excited to find a place where they can share, so in their excitement they go wild and dump everything at one time.

Which is fine in terms of feeling that way, and it's part of how we all develop (and I remember going through that experience myself) but in practice it's not as constructive.

Just... maybe pacing yourself a little better? The energy level isn't a bad thing, but you'd probably get better response if you post a bit more slowly, let people get accustomed to your thoughts and style, and give them time to mull over each thread topic one after the other, over time, rather than a sudden glut that just probably turns a lot of people off.
 

Dentan

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I'm starting to realize the problem:
my general outlook to life only works for me in my path at the moment
as its only based on my current path and experiences
most of you guys are older z c your paths, experiences as well as attitudes differ

"I think he's approaching it from a typical individualist westernized culture where there is very little physical need in the middle and upper classes, and just hasn't yet realized how much of humankind doesn't have the luxury of abstracted thought because they are more focused on daily survival. "

yeah this is mostly only for my peer group, once I leave the school system I bet things are going to change for me. I realize there's a lot of shit going on in this world, but I have the luxury to speculate a life attitude for me at the moment.

"Again, his thoughts are very abstracted... basically when someone has a lot of "Alone thinking time" without a lot of practical life experience with people in the external world, which usually forces thinking to become more concrete and practical."

I dunno, I tried to make it abstract as possible for the most objectivity.
I have to deal with people alot,
I just became a brother for months it was just school ,sleep and pledging
Now I have some free time, and wanted to try to analyze all my interactions while staying objective.

Yeah I was talking with some friends bout this and they told me off for forum dumping.
I figured INTP's wouldn't care about it too much but I assumed wrong.

In the past a friend of mine got me into philosophy and I've also read alot on interaction. Whenever something interests me I go way overboard on it. I have that type of addictive personality.

I'll admit I was in my shell (had a group of friends, but I was shy to people outside my comfort zone) I started caring about hanging out (for stuff other than computer and video games) by 11th grade. I played sports every season my whole childhood - not a complete outcast, I just do my own thing.

I'm not the person your describing, I suppose the extra strength 5 hour energy I had a little before did it for me. When on stimulants people tend to think I'm crazy.

Yeah the way I entered this board wasn't too tactful. I'm sorry for that.
Just had things saved which I was trying to get input on (to make better)

"But I did agree with his basic premise at least in within the confines of a privileged society where environmental factors are not overtly holding people back from actualization."

Thanks, that's what I was going for, its nice to hear that :)
 

snowqueen

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But I did agree with his basic premise at least in within the confines of a privileged society where environmental factors are not overtly holding people back from actualization.

There are no lack of environmental factors even in a privileged society and they still affect people. In the West we are bombarded with media information (very Brave New World and also like the futuristic section of Cloud Atlas) which is constantly giving us messages about who we should be and what we should be doing. The whole 'self-actualisation' and 'self-improvement' discourse is fabricated mostly to help sell products such as cosmetics, sports facilities and equipment, religions/spiritualities, self-help books, plastic surgery, (need I go on?) It's the underpinning philosophy of the capitalist/consumerist society. The one thing the 'self-improvement' industry hates is critical thinking - hence they tend to diss academics while at the same time 'buying' degrees to make themselves appear authoritative.

There's a great book which tackles some of these issues if you're interested - We've had a Hundred Years of Psychotherapy and the World is Getting Worse
 

Dentan

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Self actualization is a psychological theory, if its being used nowadays to "help sell products such as cosmetics, sports facilities and equipment, religions/spiritualities, self-help books, plastic surgery, (need I go on?)" that doesn't discredit it or take away from its merit.

Perhaps it help keeps the the capitalist/consumerist society running if the self actualization is used by selfish capitalists.

I think your look at the 'self-improvement' industry like its some big monolithic beast, I'm not too sure if I'm gonna be able to think theres some big conspiracy/agenda behind it.

But nevertheless I know I'm down with critical thinking, let the discussion continue :)
 

Jennywocky

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There are no lack of environmental factors even in a privileged society and they still affect people. In the West we are bombarded with media information (very Brave New World and also like the futuristic section of Cloud Atlas) which is constantly giving us messages about who we should be and what we should be doing. The whole 'self-actualisation' and 'self-improvement' discourse is fabricated mostly to help sell products such as cosmetics, sports facilities and equipment, religions/spiritualities, self-help books, plastic surgery, (need I go on?) It's the underpinning philosophy of the capitalist/consumerist society. The one thing the 'self-improvement' industry hates is critical thinking - hence they tend to diss academics while at the same time 'buying' degrees to make themselves appear authoritative.

I don't think there is any one interpretation for anything. So while you can definitely note the things you have and how those factors are in play, they're valuable insights, I think you err in painting them as the tacitly "most valid" interpretation or with such a broad brush. It's more complicated and there are a multiplicity of paradigms at work simultaneously.
 

snowqueen

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Self actualization is a psychological theory, if its being used nowadays to "help sell products such as cosmetics, sports facilities and equipment, religions/spiritualities, self-help books, plastic surgery, (need I go on?)" that doesn't discredit it or take away from its merit.

The fact that it is a 'psychological theory' does not make it true!! Maslow is widely critiqued as untested and unproven and there are many examples of people who have 'self-actualised' without the foundations which Maslow claim are necessary. But you need to consider that the term 'self-actualise' was invented by Maslow - so it is a way of talking about people that did not exist before and in itself it gave rise to a whole set of practices and social structures: industries that feed off the idea.

The proposition that everyone naturally wants to 'self-actualise' is also deeply flawed. It's a theory of motivation and theories of motivation are mostly developed and used by business, marketing etc. It's brilliant in it's conception of people as all striving for some kind of perfection - a Platonic ideal - because inherent in it is the idea that we are not - it's perfect for a society which also widely believes in the notion of original sin. The best thing about this construct is that the ideal that we are so often persuaded to strive for is to be 'one with ourself' or some such virtue.

Just stop and look at that critically. So, you create the idea that we are not perfectly fine the way we are. Then you create the idea that there are ways you could become perfect. Then you present ways to become perfect. The way to become perfect has embedded in it the need to get all sorts of 'necessities' such as house, car, friends, opportunities for self-improvement. Just notice how different this way to 'self-actualisation' is to what was the discourse previously - prior to this the way to perfection was religious/spiritual and mostly involved being less materialistic! Now that's never going to build an economy.


Perhaps it help keeps the the capitalist/consumerist society running if the self actualization is used by selfish capitalists.

I think your look at the 'self-improvement' industry like its some big monolithic beast, I'm not too sure if I'm gonna be able to think theres some big conspiracy/agenda behind it.
There is no other usefulness of the notion of 'self-actualisation' outside of a capitalist society. Actually 'self-improvement' is just a modern version. 'Personal growth' is another - they are always always linked to some product or service. It is almost impossible for people to read Maslow without coming away feeling that they should try to make better persons of themselves and there's no shortage of goods and services purporting to help you achieve that. It's not a conspiracy in the sense that a load of people got together and plotted it that way - it's an idea of its time, useful to that time. It's successful because it supports the economic system. Always follow the money.

I don't think there is any one interpretation for anything. So while you can definitely note the things you have and how those factors are in play, they're valuable insights, I think you err in painting them as the tacitly "most valid" interpretation or with such a broad brush. It's more complicated and there are a multiplicity of paradigms at work simultaneously.

Absolutely, but in a milieu where the message is constant self-improvement, it is very hard to say 'I'm ok as I am thank you'. The pressure to conform to the self-improvement movement is enormous. It's the continuous breeding of feelings of inadequacy that fuel it. Just watch some adverts and tell me are any of them telling you you are ok the way you are? That you have enough?
 

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First of all even if Maslow's psychological theory isn't right there's a kernel of wisdom behind it
It's that there are ways to harness your life source (drive or will power) that only some people have the ability to do.

Your right about what you said on how not everybody participates,
I'm going to put this on the the description:

"This is for those who want to self actualize because they're living in a sensing/judging world.
And they rather adapt to the world's game and beat them while being the beter man (without using any negative tactics)

I don't like controlling people or gossiping to put a spin/exaggeration/twist on things.
I don't talk shit about a person behind their back to lower a person's image.
I rather know a lot of people and be a good person, so I have to follow some of society's rules ,instead of just staying on the sidelines.

I realize that there's an idea out there about striving for some kind of perfection.
But I think as individuals it's our natural right to do what we want to.
If you want to improve yourself to your standards, you should be allowed to.
If your standards get you in trouble, its your fault and nobody others, and you will be dealt with accordingly by a system.

And who cares what system of knowledge your taste happens to lie on?
If that's what you believe in and your system of knowledge has a humanistic or at least libertarian (as opposed to overly aggressive/domineering) taste to it
Whether its conformist, nonconformist, or something in between.
They're just a bunch of different systems people choose from.
Based on who they are and their path in life.

Also I think being one with yourself is being self aware of your actions
realizing why you do your actions
and dealing with that insight accordingly

I think your looking at things like the systems some monolithic beast with intentions.
When its not, its just a bunch of bureaucrats fighting in their social hierarchy and using (many) dirty techniques.

Techniques are used against the populace in the name of self interest.
But with an "us and them" mentality you lose clarity

Yeah I agree, there are a lot of techniques used in society to keep a person part of the herd.
A sheep, a slave to fear, always being manipulated or at least stuck in the systems rules, not able to think critically for himself because his view of reality it too ingrained in the system.

But when you can use some of the system rules and still be able to do alternative stuff, Thats when you have the power :)

Being (staying) "one with yourself" sort of has a deeper meaning
It means staying static, the same.
Thing is you define your reality,
Its good to keep your essence,
your core views that help you out (to your perspective) as an individual
its even better to do that and be a humanist,
then your core views helps humanity out too (which is nice)
Just wanted to say I dont like that deeper meaning
since it's keeps you from self improving
(changing your mindset to get better results in life and stop injustices)


"Just stop and look at that critically.
So, you create the idea that we are not perfectly fine the way we are.
Then you create the idea that there are ways you could become perfect.
Then you present ways to become perfect.
The way to become perfect has embedded in it the need to get all sorts of 'necessities' such as house, car, friends, opportunities for self-improvement.
Just notice how different this way to 'self-actualisation' is to what was the discourse previously - prior to this the way to perfection was religious/spiritual and mostly involved being less materialistic! Now that's never going to build an economy."

Your logic has merit,
but I think your looking at it wrong.
Its possible to adhere to some of society's standards
regardless of the reason they were made
because there convenient for you / your tastes / your path in life / your dream
while at the same time not accepting all of society standards.
That's how I live my life
 

Toad

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"Its possible to adhere to some of society's standards
regardless of the reason they were made"

I cannot understand that at all. How can you just bend over to these standards "regardless of the reason they were made". I understand, if these standards correlate with your life goals, bust still, I would question any kind of standard at every turn.
 

snowqueen

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It's that there are ways to harness your life source (drive or will power) that only some people have the ability to do.

ooh, that is just full of assumptions from the idea that we have 'drive' or 'will power' to the assumption that only some people have ability right along to the idea that there are 'ways to harness your life source'. You should come to one of my classes, your brain would enjoy the exercise :)

Where is this 'drive' situated? What is 'will power'? what and where is your 'life source' and with what do you 'harness it'?


"This is for those who want to self actualize because they're living in a sensing/judging world.
And they rather adapt to the world's game and beat them while being the beter man (without using any negative tactics)

I don't like controlling people or gossiping to put a spin/exaggeration/twist on things.
I don't talk shit about a person behind their back to lower a person's image.
I rather know a lot of people and be a good person, so I have to follow some of society's rules ,instead of just staying on the sidelines.

Now here's another problem - you can't beat the SJs by being a nice, uncontrolling, unmanipulative and straight person. Sorry, but I'm sure many people on here will back this up. I'm not criticising you - just warning you.

Of course you have to follow society's rules, but that still won't necessarily make you successful or accepted - but it will increase your chances I agree - I made that choice when I had children because I didn't want my alienation to affect their progress in the world. But it came with a price and I'm only just recovering.

But I think as individuals it's our natural right to do what we want to.
If you want to improve yourself to your standards, you should be allowed to.

Of course! I'm not for a minute suggesting you shouldn't want to improve yourself - but just encouraging you to look at where your motivation is coming from. You seem to veer between saying it's coming from yourself, and saying that it's because you want to be more part of society - which suggests society is pressuring you in some way even if it's subtle. I'm suggesting you might be ok the way you are.

Look, there's a big difference between developing and changing. Developing means building on what you already have. Changing is more radical and implies you are leaving behind certain characteristics in favour of more desirable ones. My concern is that people often try to change themselves into something they're not - that is often fuelled by external drivers such as I've discussed previously. If you start by valuing who and what you are then you can build on your strengths and develop new skills in areas that will really help you.

Are you really an alpha male or do you just feel you should be one? I haven't noticed alpha male tendencies in many INTPs - a certain arrogance of tone, yes, a bit of testosterone jostling, but largely they seem to want to be individuals, undefined by some social schematic.


Yeah I agree, there are a lot of techniques used in society to keep a person part of the herd.
A sheep, a slave to fear, always being manipulated or at least stuck in the systems rules, not able to think critically for himself because his view of reality it too ingrained in the system.

But when you can use some of the system rules and still be able to do alternative stuff, Thats when you have the power :)

Power? What sort and what for?
 

Toad

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Does power make you happy?
 

echoplex

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There is no other usefulness of the notion of 'self-actualisation' outside of a capitalist society.
Doesn't that depend on how the notion is being used though? Technically, all people, whether they realize it or not, are in the process of self-actualization/improvement/whatever. Everyone is trying to become what they feel is a "better" person, even if that simply means being happy. Because of this, you could argue that the terminology itself is useless, since it's really only telling us what we already know: People generally try to make their lives better the best way they know how.

However, the notion can be used as an accurate way of describing one's journey through life perhaps. I mean, who doesn't like the idea of improving themselves? It doesn't have to involve buying cars and houses. It can involve whatever one chooses.
 

snowqueen

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Doesn't that depend on how the notion is being used though? Technically, all people, whether they realize it or not, are in the process of self-actualization/improvement/whatever. Everyone is trying to become what they feel is a "better" person, even if that simply means being happy. Because of this, you could argue that the terminology itself is useless, since it's really only telling us what we already know: People generally try to make their lives better the best way they know how.

Absolutely! You've hit the nail on the head. But by putting it into a model like Maslow did turns that into something subtly different - it prescribes the journey - it makes us much more suggestible to the idea that it involves buying cars and houses etc.

However, the notion can be used as an accurate way of describing one's journey through life perhaps. I mean, who doesn't like the idea of improving themselves? It doesn't have to involve buying cars and houses. It can involve whatever one chooses.

Actually it can't, because according to Maslow's model, those ascetics who live like hermits on begged for food could never achieve self-actualisation. People who are happy with their lot and just get on with their life are open to criticism.
 

Dentan

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I'm going to stand by my assumption that there is a way to harness your life force.
Assumptions aren't necessarily wrong, but alot of times they take away from/distance you from the truth of the matter.
I'm going to be empirical and say my life experiences make me feel that my assumption is right.
And I don't mean that some people can't apply themselves to harness it,
but that you need a "good enough" environment and you still need to have the knowledge (whether consciously or instinctively) to use it.

I bet my brain would :)

"Where is this 'drive' situated? What is 'will power'? what and where is your 'life source' and with what do you 'harness it'?"
I'm using multiple words because its hard to define my experience.
Those words I use invoke an image or framework so you can try to relate.
All I have is my experiences and words that I know that I can use to try to try to explain what I'm getting at.
Unless you've had the experience as well its hard to try to connect to it.
But just because I can't exactly describe the image I'm trying to paint
doesn't exactly discredit my idea,
just discredit my ability to tell life profound ideas :)

I won't necessarily be able to beat them,
but I'll be following by my code
And that's why life is about to me.
I guess I shouldn't have said I don't care about being successful or accepted
I want to have a healthy ratio of pureness and pragmatism in it
and constantly improve it to better explain the pattern and help me in life.

I'll admit that I have some pressure from society
After all I care about my image
I guess I'm able to sacrifice some of my pureness for a better image
I realize its risky, but I'm willing to do it.
And i'm comfortable with being this way

A pattern I'v notice in people who don't follow society's rules
Either they don't play the game because they don't have the skill in them
or they don't play the game because they realize its just a game, pointless, and want no part of it - they're willing to stay on the sidelines
(Unfortunately the former play play it off that they're the latter as well)

I guess I'm a competitive person who still want to keep most of his pureness
I'll have to watch for my competitive nature overpowering my good nature.

Well I'm developing myself as a person
by deciding I want to be in the game, with my own rules
Even if i changed some of my rules, I still have a good nature and remain objective, which is a main part of my essence

I consider myself an INTP alpha male, I want total control of myself and my reality while staying objective and having clarity. I also like winning at what I'm good at.
If an alpha male is the type that wants dominance (control of people) for dominance sake I'm definitely not an alpha male.
 

Dentan

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SlyGuy, Power over others doesn't make me happy, I dislike it, it disturbs me
Power over myself makes me very happy :)

echoplex, I like your input, it adds substance to the topic. Thanks
I'll add to that that as an individual my strategy for pursuing happiness involves a mixture of "self-help, enlightenment, and personal philosophy"

snowqueen, I don't follow Maslows model, it'd be an additional system I don't need to get by/ it wouldn't be useful for me. My big reply above addresses the idea behind using his idea of self actualization for a reason.

I might even go as far to say as there are other ways to get to the idea behind self actualization.
Many different people have gotten there in their life with their own path, but this is just me showing mine.
 

echoplex

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Actually it can't, because according to Maslow's model, those ascetics who live like hermits on begged for food could never achieve self-actualisation. People who are happy with their lot and just get on with their life are open to criticism.
Well yeah, if you're defining it strictly as Maslow did, then I agree. I was kind of thinking though that people can interpret the pyramid their own way. Perhaps individuals can create their own pyramid based on their own priorities. Maybe some people are able to omit the middle levels of the pyramid and jump right to the top level. Or maybe they can re-order the "needs" to their liking.
 

Dentan

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If I could edit my intro to my life view
I'd put this:

All people, whether they realize it or not, are in the process of self-actualization/improvement/whatever.
Everyone is trying to become what they feel is a "better" person, even if that simply means being happy.
Unless someone is totally selfless, their actions are done because it will benefit them (directly or indirectly)
While you could argue that the self actualization terminology is useless since it's really only telling us what we already know.
I think it help make the safe assumption that that we know that people generally try to make their lives better the best way they know how to.

As an individual my strategy involves a mixture of "self-help, enlightenment, and personal philosophy"
I'll even go as far to say that there are other ways to get the results of what my strategy is going for.
Many different people have gotten there throughout history with their own path.
This is just my path.

I feel only certain people that enjoy looking at things objectively would appreciate this - Those who are fine to subscribe to certain ideas of society so that they can enter the social hierarchy and play the game of life that the world plays while still able to realize that the game is just a game, nothing more.
In my opinion you can still win by having your own code which includes being the better man
Even if you won't necessarily beat your opponents by the worlds' standards
(because your aren't using negative tactics to win)
You'll still be following your own code
The extra work to following your own code is that it has to be solid and stable
Your system has to be constantly improving and adapting
to have the best results and keep your good nature

In my code I want a healthy ratio of good nature and pragmatism
And I constantly improve it to better explain the complex system of life and help myself and others out.
What I wrote is a theoretical guide for myself, an agnostic in the middle/upper class individualist westernized culture.
The basic premise behind it is that I'm within the confines of a privileged society where environmental factors are not overtly holding me back from actualization.
I'm approaching it from a typical individualist westernized culture where there is very little physical need in the middle and upper classes

This is more for those who like to look at things through a system

the problem with a system is that
once you subscribe to it
you can only look at things through it
and you can't truly be objective

the problem with no system
is that if your not strong at sensing and feeling
you're not going to have things figured out
and your most likely going to act like a fool

This isn't public since only some would get it
some would misunderstand it and get sketched out and possibly use it against me.
Its only useful for me anyway
(well, partially useful to people walking a similar path in life)
 

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Honestly I don't really understand what you are talking about.

What is purity?

What do you mean by the word tight in the following:
The extra work of following your own code is that it has to be tight

How can you assert that all people are working toward any one thing, much something as lofty as self-actualization?

When I read this:
Those who are willing to take some leafs out of the worlds book and play the game
, not intentionally to insult your verse but when my mind searched for meaning here I came up with toilet paper.

I know you are searching and refining this system of yours and perhaps part of why you have come here is to get some feedback to help in that process. Maybe its just me but it feels like you are trying apply your personal philosophy to NT's in general, which includes me. From what I know NT's are very individualistic and I'm not really getting a connection between what you are talking about and NT's.
 

Dentan

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Felan, I'd define purity as one's good nature towards others.
One section in my worldview's about a pure life
its speculative, but I still include it anyway

Tight means solid and stable in that context

"How can you assert that all people are working toward any one thing,
much something as lofty as self-actualization?"

All people are acting out of a mixture of good intention and self interest.
(Somebody could probably describe it better but thats not the purpose of this explanation)
But unless someone is totally selfless, their actions somehow benefit themselves directly or indirectly.
I think its a safe assumption that people generally try to make their lives better the best way they know how to.

That's all I'm asserting about what people are working towards
Never said people are all working on self-actualization
Its just that self actualization is about benefiting your life through with a certain path so there's a close connection between what people do unknowingly and what people do through self actualization.

"Those who are willing to take some leafs out of the worlds book and play the game"

I meant that its fine to subscribe to certain ideas of society
so you can enter the social hierarchy
and play the game of life that the world plays.

Took what you said about NT's into consideration and modified what I had to fit it,
Thanks for the insight and for helping clear some ambiguous stuff up
 

snowqueen

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code, rules, worldview - I think my fundamental problem is that as an INTP I am tending to make things up as I go along, drawing from whatever seems right at the time.

I think the fact that you seem to trying to create a watertight system is what is making a few people here feel J-vibes off you.

Please don't take this the wrong way - but I wonder what would happen if you posted the above in the INTJ forum - it could be an interesting comparison. You might get more people trying to help you refine it rather than take it apart.
 

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You might get more people trying to help you refine it rather than take it apart.

That is true, I know that I love taking things apart. There are always bits that don't seem to belong when you put it back together, which never worries me as I figure they were just getting in the way.
 

Dentan

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Hmm...

Secondary Function: Extraverted Intuition

"Intuition is a mode of perception which focusses on the larger picture, the connections between objects, on the possibilities rather than the facts. When this is extraverted (Ne), the act of intuitive perception grapples with the world itself in order to understand it and its chief goal is to derive meaning. The INTP is sometimes referred to as the architect. The world is an object of study and possibilities for changing and shaping it according to the schemes assessed by the Ti core are derived from intuition. If his introversion is strong, however, then his schemes tend to remain private and speculative: the world remains an intellectual object of study but his architectural plans may not actually be put into practice. The constructor/inventor ENTP, on the other hand, with whom the Ne is dominant, aggressively grapples with and shapes the world, showing little reticence. The INTP is of the same spirit, but his constructive nature is likely to take shape within more private hobbies and less likely to directly involve others."

"In reality, the INTP is not actually even certain himself whether he really stands by what he is saying, but his Ne strongly suggests that there must be a core of truth there. The purpose then of his outspoken style of argument is to sharpen his own intuitive understanding by testing the reaction of the listener, and indeed to examine the logic of his own arguments in real time while speaking them out. On occasion, INTPs may seem brash and tactless, but for themselves it is part of their way of getting closer to the truth."

"Extraverted iNtuition has a strong influence on how the INTP views his own interaction with others. It is the Ne above all that the INTP most loves to show others. He is therefore happy to be seen as somewhat eccentric, innovative and perceptive. In dreaming about what he would like to become or achieve, his goals are invariably highly individualistic. He must become the composer, the solo performer, the genius scientist who makes the unique discovery. If he is to be noticed at all, then he must be centre stage. If he can't be centre stage in an area of interest, then he must withdraw and resort to vitriolic criticism. But in all areas which interest him less he happily leaves to others and observes. With an INTP it is either all or nothing. Half-efforts he dislikes just as much as he dislikes the restrictions of teamwork and co-operation."
 

snowqueen

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^^where did that come from? a link would be appreciated. I'm thinking it's the Paul James portrait?

Yes, I wasn't suggesting you weren't INTP - but the bit I'm picking up on is the interest in "possibilities rather than facts" - what people here are reacting to is your tendency to state things as facts 'All people are..' 'all women ...'

I presume those MBTI results you posted were yours? Which suggests you have a balanced P and J - which is enviable in some ways - I could do with a bit more J, I have had to work on that. So I think it would be interesting to see what the INTJ's response would be - don't you? - both our and their responses could be helpful in different ways.
 

Dentan

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yeah its the Paul James portrait
its at int dot org slash intpprofile dot html

Yeah I agree with your statement that it'd be interesting to see what INJT's would think about it.
I'll post it on their boards in a second
and I appreciate that you stated it in a way to let me reach that conclusion myself :)
 

sybyll

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yeah its the Paul James portrait
its at int dot org slash intpprofile dot html

Yeah I agree with your statement that it'd be interesting to see what INJT's would think about it.
I'll post it on their boards in a second
and I appreciate that you stated it in a way to let me reach that conclusion myself :)

Did you post it? Can we have a link?

On another note, I've been lurking in your threads, but I find your posts really hard to read. The random breaks in paragraphs are really, really, annoying and make my eyes want to bleed :rolleyes:. Do you even read over your posts before you submit them?
 

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Did you post it? Can we have a link?

On another note, I've been lurking in your threads, but I find your posts really hard to read. The random breaks in paragraphs are really, really, annoying and make my eyes want to bleed :rolleyes:. Do you even read over your posts before you submit them?


it's here
 

Dentan

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Did you post it? Can we have a link?

On another note, I've been lurking in your threads, but I find your posts really hard to read. The random breaks in paragraphs are really, really, annoying and make my eyes want to bleed :rolleyes:. Do you even read over your posts before you submit them?

I rather have breaks than have long winding paragraphs
its easier for me to go over at least
my grammar and syntax isn't the best too start with
and I haven't been sober since Friday

As for the post,
http://intjforum.com/showthread.php?p=481259#post481259
 
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