My first post!

[Draves]

So? If I am an INTP, and you can relate to me, then follow me down my rabbit hole. I hope I fit here. I was extremely excited when I found I was INTP and that there are others that think/act like me. I have always been told I think/act wrong and that I need to change or be something else. After I found out others are like me I said f-you. What if I am normal in my own special way? What if you don't understand? Leave me the f alone. So those are the thoughts that led me to write this post. Here we go~


There is more to life than thinking. I will use generalities based on my personality/beliefs at the moment. Let’s see how they compare to others here…

I feel INTP’s, above all other MBTI types, have the best possibility to become enlightened. Truly, this is a hard thing to explain. We (INTP’s) care and we care (really we do), but we try to avoid it. Why do we avoid it? For me, I feel I am somewhat of an empath. I feel like I can feel the emotions in a room. I can feel the other’s emotions, so I try to avoid those overwhelming situatons. For me, it is hard to discern where emotions are directed so I avoid people and emotionally charged conversation. EX) Have you ever been with a group and then all of a sudden something terrible is said, and you feel the “fun” mood die and it becomes weird? Not just understand it, but literally feel it? This could be true for everyone, but I think we can agree that we don’t like emotions.

Why should we care about others emotions? Maybe deep down we know emotions are useless. Not only that, but maybe we were born semi-enlightened (fallen angels) and emotions (as we know them) are something that should not be. We know at a deep level that emotions are a problem. True enlightenment has only one emotion. Is it calm, happiness, or joy? No, it all of those and none. It is peace. Be at peace with yourself, don’t be afraid, and shut everything else out. That is the only way I know how to explain what I believe is my bliss (if only temporary). I can acheive this, but it isn't often and a little random.


So INTP’s know it is all useless. After awhile we will either find peace or death. We also live in our minds and are called machines for it. Truthfully, I believe that is what Buddhism strives for. We stop feeling/caring and just are. If we shut out all the crap emotions, we will experience the most calming experience in our lives. Funny that calm is an emotion eh? Maybe all we need is to shut out all the negative crap/others emotions. Maybe that is becoming a machine, maybe it is enlightenment.

Another weird thing about me….Do you have, what I call them, “brain orgasms?” When I am thinking something that, to me, is important, I have a tingling in my brain. It isn’t just a good feeling though, it is orgasmic. I look forward to the feeling. I have found others who experience this too, but not many. I’d love to hear if any of you have had this.

Anyways, here are some random Buddhist quotes (with notes) to go along with my thoughts right now.

Truth is that which lies in a dimension beyond the reach of thought. Whole-mind has no 'thoughts', thoughts are split-mind. - Ask the Awakened by Wei Wu Wei
~Stop thinking. Just shut it down and be. If we are “machines” then be a machine. Stop being what you think everyone else wants you to be or what you should be. Just exist.

It is not for us to search but to remain still, to achieve Immobility not Action. - Fingers Pointing Toward the Moon by Wei Wu Wei
~Once again, stop thinking so much. If you have never done this, then you cannot understand. Just shut it all down. Let it go. Let everything that flows in flow out. I can wiggle my nose. This is like trying to explain how you can also wiggle your nose. You can or you can’t (at the moment).

In the province of connected minds, what the network believes to be true, either is true or becomes true within certain limits to be found experientially and experimentally. These limits are further beliefs to be transcended. In the network's mind there are no limits. - Dr. John C. Lilly, M.D.
~No limits. Find your happiness and we will have no limits. Limits for us are limits we impose upon ourselves. However, these limits are not our (personal) limits; they are our societies limits, our family’s limits, but none-the-less self imposed.

Past and Future are a duality of which Present is the reality. The now-moment alone is eternal and real. - Why Lazurus Laughed by Wei Wu Wei
~If you can find your peace, hold on to it with your life. It is hard to get back again. Don’t focus on tomorrow or yesterday. Just do. Eighty choices of what to do? Pick one, f-it. Flip a coin.


So what do you guys (and few gals) think? Am I going crazy? I think to much? I don't think right? I'm not logical? It doesn't matter? I should be beaten until I think/act the way you do? lol...Lifes a bitch.

 

[Artifice Orisit]

Welcome

 

[Anthile]

^ My thoughts exactly!

 

[Draves]

Did you even read it? (this site has great smileys)

Thanks for the welcome btw. If you have any thought on the post itself, I'd love to hear it. I am just learning to be myself. Yeah, late, but better late than never.

I don't know what else to say I guess. Peace and Love! (I will feel a lot better if someone gets the reference)

 

[Anthile]

This is how your posting made me feel:

 

[Draves]

I am not very visual. Or I am and that picture could mean a million things. Words are better for me. Any words for me?

 

[Ermine]

So INTP’s know it is all useless. After awhile we will either find peace or death. We also live in our minds and are called machines for it. Truthfully, I believe that is what Buddhism strives for. We stop feeling/caring and just are. If we shut out all the crap emotions, we will experience the most calming experience in our lives. Funny that calm is an emotion eh? Maybe all we need is to shut out all the negative crap/others emotions. Maybe that is becoming a machine, maybe it is enlightenment.

Maybe it's because I'm just not to the point of "enlightenment", but when I do stop caring for a while and act like a cold "machine", I don't feel calm or at peace at all. Though it may be due to the fact that I'm not at peace with myself and feel obligated as a human to care. But if I stopped caring about that obligation, would I be calm or just empty?

Another weird thing about me….Do you have, what I call them, “brain orgasms?” When I am thinking something that, to me, is important, I have a tingling in my brain. It isn’t just a good feeling though, it is orgasmic. I look forward to the feeling. I have found others who experience this too, but not many. I’d love to hear if any of you have had this.

You're not the only one. This is pretty much how I can tell I love, not just like, any given idea, song, literature, art, etc.

 

[Artifice Orisit]

Did you even read it?

No, but I will, eventually

 

[Draves]

Maybe it's because I'm just not to the point of "enlightenment", but when I do stop caring for a while and act like a cold "machine", I don't feel calm or at peace at all. Though it may be due to the fact that I'm not at peace with myself and feel obligated as a human to care. But if I stopped caring about that obligation, would I be calm or just empty?

You're not the only one. This is pretty much how I can tell I love, not just like, any given idea, song, literature, art, etc.

It isn't empty. The best word I can think to describe it is satisfied (for the moment). To be able to talk to anyone and not really care what they think. To just do as you would without analyzing everything.

I don't know. I feel the greatest Buddhists were INTP's that overcame their thoughts. We are slaves to our own thoughts. What happens when we become the master?

You have the tingling feeling too? Awesome. It is usually books/music for me and rarely conversation, art, random thoughts. Awesome.

 

[Cegorach]

What a freak... let us first belittle him and insult his opinions before we set him alight, witch that he clearly is!

Hehe, Seriously though...
I'm not one to judge your actions/beliefs, though I may abuse them in debate.
The focus of my evaluation is your performance, as I most certainly do discriminate against dumb and/or inept individuals.

So what is your worth?
After all, we're not all born equal, now are we?






Regarding your post, you seem to regard feeling as counterproductive to reason, yet I wonder, are you aware of the state of mind endowed upon individuals stripped of emotion?

They are largely dispossessed of creativity becoming ineffective at mere survival, they have no drive, nothing to entice them towards success, no reason to live, no reason to die.

Luciferous persona that I'm playing at, I'll point out several important incentives to the continuation of emotion within the human paradigm.

• 
  Emotion is a major determinant in the effectuality of our memories: The things that are most clearly cached within our subconscious subsist largely of emotional information.

• 
  Motivation depends on emotion: As a matter of fact, both the words emotion and motivation are derived from the Latin term 'Motivus' which means 'To move', if we do not feel then there is no reason to accomplish unless we were to magically become aware of the meaning of life.
  Sadly, something far greater than mere apathy would accompany our disposition.

• 
  Our attentions are focussed through the application of emotion, though this may partially tie into the above point, I think it deserves a mention all it's own as there are very few who have not felt the effects of emotion contributing to how apt they are at focus.

• 
  Finally, when under the influence of strong emotion our brain is hardwired to take a shortcut, before comprehension of the situation a split second emotional response takes place and grants us an immediate semi-rational reaction to the given situation.
  Now this has obvious drawbacks, but imagine if, as a species, we were forced to consider all relevant information before acquiring the disposition to make a decision... Our survival would have been dubious at best.

I've done extensive research pertaining to emotion, as you must surely agree, it is a fascinating subject.


Hmm, by the way, I can't say I agree with the rest of your philosophy on life.
It would seem to preach the well known phrase "Ignorance is Bliss"... That is unless I am interpreting it incorrectly...




OH! But I have yet to welcome you.

Welcome fellow freak, to our humble estate!
Please enjoy your stay!

 

[Cogwulf]

I was extremely excited when I found I was INTP and that there are others that think/act like me. I have always been told I think/act wrong and that I need to change or be something else. After I found out others are like me I said f-you. What if I am normal in my own special way? What if you don't understand? Leave me the f alone. So those are the thoughts that led me to write this post. Here we go~

I always used to think I was the odd one out as well, I used to wonder why I wasn't a 'normal' person. Now I know I am normal, I'm just normal in a different way.


I'm sort of interested in meditation, but I'm not interested in enlightenment, I enjoy being human too much. I sometimes use a sort of passive meditation to give me better control over myself when I need it

 

[loveofreason]

You do miss us, sweetie, don't you?

 

[Da Blob]

I read your post and I thought that you made some good points, although I believe the conclusions you have drawn are premature, that later on you may wish to re-examine your beliefs. However, as it is you do seem to have a philosophy that offers stability and shelter if nothing else.
There is one comment you made I will remember, because you were able to put into words something that I had felt 'Intuitively' for a long time. That point was that many of us Think instead of Feel, not because we lack the ability to Feel, but because we are too good at it, perhaps hypersensitive instead of insensitive. I know I was once extremely empathic to the point of telepathy. I remember the exact time and place that I turned that empathy off. I was listening to my younger brother being beaten by my father. I was feeling his pain and crying with him. After about the second hour of the beating, I thought "I can't take this!" "I can't afford to feel the pain of two people" for I was 'next in line" to receive a beating, so I simply put a wall up and I have never paid attention to other's emotions or my own since...

 

[Kidege]

Regarding the opening post:

Not fallen angels, rising humans.

 

[Draves]

Regarding the opening post:

Not fallen angels, rising humans.

I have felt like that before too. Like I am trying to fit in/learn to be human.

Hmm, by the way, I can't say I agree with the rest of your philosophy on life.
It would seem to preach the well known phrase "Ignorance is Bliss"... That is unless I am interpreting it incorrectly..

I never said it was my philosophy on life. It was an idea. Ideas are like assholes or so the saying goes. Anyways, thinking back on it and after reading some posts, enlightenment is too strong of a word. Can you shut off your brain sometimes? Just shut out all the thoughts and go on autopilot? It is incredibly relaxing. It does not mean I cannot act, or be motivated. I just stop the analyzing and be for awhile. Ignorance is not bliss, and I don't feel like my post came off that way. Yes if you are truly going to go down the 8-fold path then you will essentially be ignorant of the world around you in the end. But who really knows? Maybe it is the ideal state. Maybe it is evil to want peace of mind for all people through natural and not artificial means. I don't know. All I know is that I am the most content when I stop analyzing and go on auto. I am at peace with myself during those times.

Does that make me less smart? Everyone has dumb ideas, and when emotions are involved the ideas become very illogical. You are making assumption about me based on a single post. I am a dumb and inept individual because of a thought? I used to believe in nothing, and it was extremely easy to tear others beliefs to shreds. I did it for years. What are your beliefs? Do you believe in anything?

There is more to life than science. I can never again believe that there is nothing else out there. Whether it be an advanced life form, or a god like figure there is a point to this all. If there is nothing else, then there is no point to life. Think about it. If this is all a system that can be explained with science, then we can safely say that eventually humans will go extinct like most species. What happens when the last human dies? What was the point? Entropy? Is that it? If that is your thoughts you can hardly say anything bad about lack of motivation. After all, who will remember/use your great achievements when there is no one to remember?

I am not trying to attack you like you did me. Talk to me like a person.

 

[Cegorach]

I never said it was my philosophy on life. It was an idea. Ideas are like assholes or so the saying goes.

Hehe, what fun!

This is true, it was left entirely unspecified as to how much of this was conceptual.
You see, I made an assumption based on probability, I figured that most new members would choose to use the introit as a basis for their own unique effictio, describing their individual beliefs, traits and desires.
Very rarely do they jump directly into a theoretical discussion without first affirming their personality and opinions within the community.

However, that does not mean you did something wrong, as a matter of fact it's quite interesting.

Anyways, thinking back on it and after reading some posts, enlightenment is too strong of a word. Can you shut off your brain sometimes? Just shut out all the thoughts and go on autopilot? It is incredibly relaxing. It does not mean I cannot act, or be motivated. I just stop the analyzing and be for awhile. Ignorance is not bliss, and I don't feel like my post came off that way. Yes if you are truly going to go down the 8-fold path then you will essentially be ignorant of the world around you in the end. But who really knows? Maybe it is the ideal state. Maybe it is evil to want peace of mind for all people through natural and not artificial means. I don't know. All I know is that I am the most content when I stop analyzing and go on auto. I am at peace with myself during those times.

I very rarely answer questions directed towards what I do or who I am, I will oblige you this once, but please ask no more...
My mind does not rest, I rarely relax.
I am haunted by the permanency of desperation, it is as good a motivator as any.



"Maybe it is evil to want peace of mind for all people through natural and not artificial means."

Considering that I do not believe in the existence of 'Evil', I seriously doubt this.
Everything is ordered in terms of efficiency, this efficiency is further governed by purpose which dictates worth... the only evil in the world is that that takes away from the objective efficiency and logical application of any chosen path.

Does that make me less smart? Everyone has dumb ideas, and when emotions are involved the ideas become very illogical. You are making assumption about me based on a single post. I am a dumb and inept individual because of a thought? I used to believe in nothing, and it was extremely easy to tear others beliefs to shreds. I did it for years. What are your beliefs? Do you believe in anything?

My friend, you may wish to reread the referenced part of my post.
It is formatted as an inquiry rather than an accusation, and seeks to classify your value not administer it.
My evaluation of you is significant only to myself, I have no intent of publicly appraising you or any others.



"What are your beliefs? Do you believe in anything?"

I think it is quite clear that I have my own beliefs, I quite simply see them as tools to acquiring the truth, transient realities that are only as much a part of me as my own shadow.

There is more to life than science. I can never again believe that there is nothing else out there. Weather it be an advanced life form, or a god like figure there is a point to this all. If there is nothing else, then there is no point to life. Think about it. If this is all a system that can be explained with science, then we can safely say that eventually humans will go extinct like most species. What happens when the last human dies? What was the point? Entropy? Is that it? If that is your thoughts you can hardly say anything bad about lack of motivation. After all, who will remember/use your great achievements when there is no one to remember?

God?!
If God gets brought into this, then I'd rather avoid prolonging this discussion...

It is quite probable that everything can be explained through science, though much of it would be beyond human comprehension.
Not that things beyond rationality are completely impossible, just unlikely.


"If this is all a system that can be explained with science, then we can safely say that eventually humans will go extinct like most species."

Of course we will... there is absolutely no reason that we, above all other species, need to survive.


"What happens when the last human dies? What was the point? Entropy? Is that it?"

I won't pretend to know the meaning of life, but I will say that there are two major options.

1. It's all pointless, a random series of events, nothing we do, nothing we think, nothing we feel, means anything, we might as well give up now or live only for our own selfish desires.
   (You can see the problems with this I imagine, even if it is true we have no way of ascertaining this decision, choosing to believe it is akin to taking the easiest route possible; quite simply pathetic, in my humble opinion.)
   
   
2. There is a reason for everything, whether that be 'scientific' or not.
   We are playing our very own small part in an infinite symphony, our presence is part of the reason for this erumpent cacophony and yet our absence would be left unnoticed.
   For surely in an orchestra so grand there will always be replacements, a monotonous importation of greater and greater talents as the progression of reality grasps towards perfection.

I must say, even the concept of sentience being inherently more accomplished may be but a passing concept that shall be ultimately denied.
Truly, we are are but a foothold, us humans.

I am not trying to attack you like you did me. Talk to me like a person.

It is the harsh truth, that should I have chose to speak to you as anything other than a person I would be far more worthy of respect.

 

[Miss Led]

Welcome.

I don't feel enlightened, I feel more logical than most seem to behave.

I turned off emotion long ago because of that hypersensitivity you mention. I find that it is counterproductive and often causes more distress than the situation actually deserves, so I tempered it.

Sometimes I get tingly feelings from thinking. Most of the time it will be during conversations I have with my husband, when we take a theory and stretch it to infinate possibilities.

I imagine that INTP's have more chance of becoming enlightened (though I don't think I will), than 80 percent of people simply due to the fact that an most other types would not be interested in finding enlightenment.

 

[Da Blob]

Welcome.

I don't feel enlightened, I feel more logical than most seem to behave.

I turned off emotion long ago because of that hypersensitivity you mention. I find that it is counterproductive and often causes more distress than the situation actually deserves, so I tempered it.

Sometimes I get tingly feelings from thinking. Most of the time it will be during conversations I have with my husband, when we take a theory and stretch it to infinate possibilities.

I imagine that INTP's have more chance of becoming enlightened (though I don't think I will), than 80 percent of people simply due to the fact that an most other types would not be interested in finding enlightenment.

Personally, I have found the Eastern philosophical version of "Enlightenment" to be slightly over rated in any event. It is just a revisiting of the state of mind common to all human infants. A Ptolemaic point of view before the discovery of self, so that one IS what one perceives. It is of great therapeutic value. There is peace, joy and wonderment/awe involved in that state of mind. However, it does lose its luster with the revelation that it is a step backward in time and not truly a progression towards a higher state of being. Of course, I could be wrong about that, because only one who has the POV of that hypothetical higher state of being is entitled to make that observation. I certainly can't claim to be such...

 

[Draves]

Hehe, what fun!

Let’s have more fun then!

However, that does not mean you did something wrong, as a matter of fact it's quite interesting.

It is interesting I suppose. I did not start off with the usual business of "HI! I'm new! Love me!" If I decide to post something, it is usually with a purpose. I have a multitude of thoughts in my head when I write and I want to see if anyone else follows without an explanation. I assume you are the same.

I very rarely answer questions directed towards what I do or who I am, I will oblige you this once, but please ask no more...
My mind does not rest, I rarely relax.
I am haunted by the permanency of desperation, it is as good a motivator as any.

Don't sound so serious. I will answer one and only question but ask no more? That just sounds too cliché, and it reminds me of Darth Vader for some reason. Desperation? I have to inquire about the word choice. What do you feel desperate about, and what are you so scared of that you cannot rest?

Considering that I do not believe in the existence of 'Evil', I seriously doubt this.
Everything is ordered in terms of efficiency, this efficiency is further governed by purpose which dictates worth... the only evil in the world is that that takes away from the objective efficiency and logical application of any chosen path.

That is another bad word choice on my part. You latch on to words like a SOB and then run with them. I said "Maybe it is evil to want peace of mind for all people through natural and not artificial means." I guess I need to extrapolate (b/c you can't seem to read between my lines). Maybe it is wrong to want peace of mind through natural means and not through meds. I was trying to say you can make your own happiness without meds/outside influences. I went on Zoloft for a few years (on and off), but when I was on it I had no motivation. I think that would interest you. On the meds I had no emotion really. I was a walking zombie. However, I went off them and now I can pick and choose to shut things out (experience). I have learned how to handle most emotions. Since you say you cannot shut off your brain selectively, I take it you cannot shut out emotions either. Have you noticed how there is a jump in logic between the two of us? In my mind I am explaining everything I want to, but you don't have the experience that I have so we make arguments for no real reason. A simple sentence to me could become an essay if I wrote down why I said it, what I want you to take from it, and the experiences/teachings in my life that led me to say that sentence. Put two people together like that and they will never understand each other. We can't. We would both need to be inside the other persons mind at the time. This goes back to emotions. They may seem very illogical to you, but to the other person they seem justified. It is a matter of experience.

My evaluation of you is significant only to myself, I have no intent of publicly appraising you or any others.

Yet you still publicly appraised me. You could have sent me an u2u. Did you? No. I like to hear others opinions, so truly, your evaluation is important to me. Every action you make around others is significant in some way to them. Welcome to the human condition.

I think it is quite clear that I have my own beliefs, I quite simply see them as tools to acquiring the truth, transient realities that are only as much a part of me as my own shadow.

Nice and poetic. I truely like it. However, I don't see everything as tools at the moment. I have acted like that, but I don't right now. I will also jump out there and assume more about you. Quite clear? How is it quite clear? A lot of belief requires illogical thinking and just accepting things. You already said you couldn't do that. So which is it? Can you shut off your mind and just accept something illogical or not?

God?!
If God gets brought into this, then I'd rather avoid prolonging this discussion...

This is another example of you latching onto words. I should have written "god." So what did I mean? I believe there is something else out there whether it is an alien or higher life form that some would call "god." Better? I was not bringing religion into that statement. I hate organized religion. You follow? There is something more than us and chances are it has affected us and the universe. Some would say "god" only because they can't (and don’t want to) understand the life form/system, but we could become what it is. We are energy. We are light (I started this post very relaxed, I felt "light." It led me to this site). I can’t say much more than that. It is a personal thing.

Ultimately, we are slaves to our minds. It sounds, to me, that you’re pretty deep into it too. I have taken some very crazy drugs, and they have led me to some unbelievable insights. It is one thing to know something, and another to understand/fell it. It is like trying to explain color to a blind person. Until you experience it, you will never understand.

It is quite probable that everything can be explained through science, though much of it would be beyond human comprehension.
Not that things beyond rationality are completely impossible, just unlikely.

Illogical! Heresy! I am going to rephrase what you said (from my perspective). Things beyond rationality are unlikely, but it’s probable that everything can be explained by science but much will be beyond human comprehension. Wow. Re-think or rephrase that one for me. So if it is beyond reason then how will we comprehend it and how will science explain it? How will we get there? Maybe there is a god-like phenomenon in the universe, and understanding it is required to comprehend it all.

1. There is a reason for everything, whether that be 'scientific' or not.
   We are playing our very own small part in an infinite symphony, our presence is part of the reason for this erumpent cacophony and yet our absence would be left unnoticed.
   For surely in an orchestra so grand there will always be replacements, a monotonous importation of greater and greater talents as the progression of reality grasps towards perfection.

I am going with this choice. There is no point to living if something like this statement is not true. Greater and greater perfection though? I feel there is already something perfect and that is what we strive to be.

I must say, even the concept of sentience being inherently more accomplished may be but a passing concept that shall be ultimately denied.
Truly, we are are but a foothold, us humans.

A foothold to what? I like this thought of yours. Please elaborate.

Peace and love...

 

[Draves]

Personally, I have found the Eastern philosophical version of "Enlightenment" to be slightly over rated in any event. It is just a revisiting of the state of mind common to all human infants. A Ptolemaic point of view before the discovery of self, so that one IS what one perceives. It is of great therapeutic value. There is peace, joy and wonderment/awe involved in that state of mind. However, it does lose its luster with the revelation that it is a step backward in time and not truly a progression towards a higher state of being. Of course, I could be wrong about that, because only one who has the POV of that hypothetical higher state of being is entitled to make that observation. I certainly can't claim to be such...

Yes, we are what we perceive (we live in our minds). Maybe enlightenment isn't revisiting a infantile stage, but overcoming a challenge to some. Will a being with a higher sense of being be so ruled by emotion? Maybe we are born perfect and are taught to be the way we are through culture and the like. Others show us how to be and we conform. Once overcame, I do not see it as a step back. It is a step forward. We begin to act like ourselves and not like the world around us. So many times we act like others around us or because "we have to." Is becoming yourself infantile? In my opinion, this mind set is extremely developed.

 

[Draves]

Welcome.

I don't feel enlightened, I feel more logical than most seem to behave.

I turned off emotion long ago because of that hypersensitivity you mention. I find that it is counterproductive and often causes more distress than the situation actually deserves, so I tempered it.

Sometimes I get tingly feelings from thinking. Most of the time it will be during conversations I have with my husband, when we take a theory and stretch it to infinite possibilities.

I imagine that INTP's have more chance of becoming enlightened (though I don't think I will), than 80 percent of people simply due to the fact that an most other types would not be interested in finding enlightenment.

I love you. I hope to meet someone like you in my life. You can follow what I am saying/take meanings beyond the words and you don't argue with it. You are positive and try to relate. No arguments. Thank you.

You see, I think like a girl in a fashion. There is nothing that pisses of a women more than truly understanding them (compared to not understanding them) in my experience. No on likes to be predictable. Especially women. Sorry if I offend. I still love you Arguments are good however. What have I said in my post that don't jibe with you? If there is nothing than wow. I love you even more.

I said INTP's are likely to become enlightened because we strive to understand things and live in our own minds. We need to understand things and enlightenment is the supposed ultimate understanding. I can't help but assume that is our promised land.

Unfortunitely, I do not think I will become enlightened either. I do, however, think I will become content. That is all I strive for.

 

[Da Blob]

Yes, we are what we perceive (we live in our minds). Maybe enlightenment isn't revisiting a infantile stage, but overcoming a challenge to some. Will a being with a higher sense of being be so ruled by emotion? Maybe we are born perfect and are taught to be the way we are through culture and the like. Others show us how to be and we conform. Once overcame, I do not see it as a step back. It is a step forward. We begin to act like ourselves and not like the world around us. So many times we act like others around us or because "we have to." Is becoming yourself infantile? In my opinion, this mind set is extremely developed.

Alas the futility of words, which are empty of experience. I am not going to assume that you misunderstood me as there probably are not any words that could symbolize the experience I was trying to share. Akin to trying to catch a wisp with a net with too large a mesh i suppose. Human infants do not become self-aware until the age of 10-12 months, at which stage they are able to recognize themselves in a mirror as 'mere' objects. Prior to that self-awareness is a 'god-like' state of existence without boundaries or focus. There is a wonderful state of consciousness available for those who are able to discard consciousness of "Self-as-Object". Of course, I label it wonderful perhaps only because I do not like my Self and to be free from the burden of Self is an 'en-lightening ' experience...

 

[Draves]

Personally, I have found the Eastern philosophical version of "Enlightenment" to be slightly over rated in any event. It is just a revisiting of the state of mind common to all human infants. A Ptolemaic point of view before the discovery of self, so that one IS what one perceives. It is of great therapeutic value. There is peace, joy and wonderment/awe involved in that state of mind. However, it does lose its luster with the revelation that it is a step backward in time and not truly a progression towards a higher state of being. Of course, I could be wrong about that, because only one who has the POV of that hypothetical higher state of being is entitled to make that observation. I certainly can't claim to be such...

Alas the futility of words, which are empty of experience. I am not going to assume that you misunderstood me as there probably are not any words that could symbolize the experience I was trying to share. Akin to trying to catch a wisp with a net with too large a mesh i suppose. Human infants do not become self-aware until the age of 10-12 months, at which stage they are able to recognize themselves in a mirror as 'mere' objects. Prior to that self-awareness is a 'god-like' state of existence without boundaries or focus. There is a wonderful state of consciousness available for those who are able to discard consciousness of "Self-as-Object". Of course, I label it wonderful perhaps only because I do not like my Self and to be free from the burden of Self is an 'en-lightening ' experience...

If the release from burden caused by "self" is wonderful/enlightening why do you say it is a step backwards in your prevision post? How is eastern philosophy so off-the-mark if you agree that it can be wonderful? Humans are very interested in history. Truly that is all science is, observing past event to predict future ones. Maybe going back to the source is what we are all trying to do/discover by releasing ourselves from the self. No?

 

[Da Blob]

If the release from burden caused by "self" is wonderful/enlightening why do you say it is a step backwards in your prevision post? How is eastern philosophy so off-the-mark if you agree that it can be wonderful? Humans are very interested in history. Truly that is all science is, observing past event to predict future ones. Maybe going back to the source is what we are all trying to do/discover by releasing ourselves from the self. No?

Rats, server went down just as was going to hit the 'post' button...
I believe my reply was this

Because it is a dead-end that leads nowhere
A wonderful cul-de-sac to retire in
It may not be a Higher state of Consciousness
As proclaimed by the Eastern mystics
but rather a lower state of consciousness
as shared by the beasts of the Earth
that are also not Self Aware

I'll send you a PM with something that might illuminate my POV better...

 

[Da Blob]

If the release from burden caused by "self" is wonderful/enlightening why do you say it is a step backwards in your prevision post? How is eastern philosophy so off-the-mark if you agree that it can be wonderful? Humans are very interested in history. Truly that is all science is, observing past event to predict future ones. Maybe going back to the source is what we are all trying to do/discover by releasing ourselves from the self. No?

this my third attempt at a reply to your query, I get a 'server is busy' message everytime I hit the submit 'button' so I am going to try and save this before posting this time

I discount the experience because it is a dead-end
A wonderful cal-de-sac that leads no where...
It most likely is not a
"higher state of Consciousness'
as proclaimed by the Eastern mystics
but rather more likely
it is a lower state of consciousness
for it is that state of awareness shared
by the Beasts of the Field
Who are not Self-aware..

I'll Pm you something I wrote (one page) that could shed light on my POV of this matter...

 

[Draves]

Rats, server went down just as was going to hit the 'post' button...
I believe my reply was this

Because it is a dead-end that leads nowhere
A wonderful cul-de-sac to retire in
It may not be a Higher state of Consciousness
As proclaimed by the Eastern mystics
but rather a lower state of consciousness
as shared by the beasts of the Earth
that are also not Self Aware

I'll send you a PM with something that might illuminate my POV better...

Okay, I haven't gotten the PM yet, but I am still highly interested. I'm liking this little thought exchange Enlightenment is a dead end that leads nowhere? What in life, in the very long run isn't leading to nowhere? You will die. You will be forgotten. You are stardust. If you can find a true happiness for yourself, why not? How do we know the beasts of the earth are not self aware? What about hive mentality? What is best for all is best for me? Some animals may think/act like that. Does that make them lower than us when they too will be forgotten? What makes us higher consciousness? We can talk and argue? We can build things. We can destroy and create? Does it make us better? Does it make us happier/more fulfilled? Where does it end? So many questions. Why not just stop questioning such things and just be? Accept what is around you for what you can understand and be happy.

 

[Da Blob]

Okay, I haven't gotten the PM yet, but I am still highly interested. I'm liking this little thought exchange Enlightenment is a dead end that leads nowhere? What in life, in the very long run isn't leading to nowhere? You will die. You will be forgotten. You are stardust. If you can find a true happiness for yourself, why not? How do we know the beasts of the earth are not self aware? What about hive mentality? What is best for all is best for me? Some animals may think/act like that. Does that make them lower than us when they too will be forgotten? What makes us higher consciousness? We can talk and argue? We can build things. We can destroy and create? Does it make us better? Does it make us happier/more fulfilled? Where does it end? So many questions. Why not just stop questioning such things and just be? Accept what is around you for what you can understand and be happy.

"Been there, done that!" is really the only response to many of your queries that i can offer.
In my own life, once I discovered what Eastern philosophy had to offer, I started to investigate other possibilities. I was quite shocked to discover that the God that the Bible describes exists, because I had dismissed that possibility as a child (?). The universe and the life it offers is simply a more interesting place to exist, once the higher powers become a part of that perceived universe. It means that being merely human is not a dead-end...

 

[Draves]

"Been there, done that!" is really the only response to many of your queries that i can offer.
In my own life, once I discovered what Eastern philosophy had to offer, I started to investigate other possibilities. I was quite shocked to discover that the God that the Bible describes exists, because I had dismissed that possibility as a child (?). The universe and the life it offers is simply a more interesting place to exist, once the higher powers become a part of that perceived universe. It means that being merely human is not a dead-end...

The god the bible describes exists? How do you come to that? What about eastern religions that say all is one and that we are all a part of god/interconnected? If we are a part of god then anything we experience whether infantile or not is still a part of god. Who is to say that one experience/way of being is better than the others then?

 

[Da Blob]

The god the bible describes exists?
How do you come to that?
An 18 year journey that began in a mindset of unshakable Atheism

What about eastern religions that say all is one and that we are all a part of god/interconnected?
I do not totally discount Eastern philosphy for the truth is truth no matter where it is written or manifested

If we are a part of god then anything we experience whether infantile or not is still a part of god.

I do not believe that we, as humans, remained 'in' God as perhaps all the other creatures did. The fall of man, the separation of Man from God and an eventual re-union with God through the efforts of Jesus is the story of the Bible in a nutshell

Who is to say that one experience/way of being is better than the others

Truth! One has to have two very similar experiences before comparing them and saying I prefer this one to that one so it must be better. Too many people get confused by comparing "apples to Oranges" and trying to determine which is 'better'.

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