# Making Money

#### Cognisant

##### Prolific Member
I think fundamentally you're either exchanging time for money or you're investing time in an income source.

When you work for someone else as their employee they're paying you for your time, the quality of your work determines whether they'll continue paying you and you won't be promoted for doing a bad job (unless you're in management) nor for doing a good job, after all if an arrangement isn't broken why fix it? At best you can make yourself an asset of value to the employer's organization and use that value to negotiate a higher income. However your income will always be less than your value to that organization and your ability to negotiate is dependent upon their being other such organizations willing to hire you.

Don't work for a monopoly, if your skills only have value to one employer then that employer practically owns you.

Always be looking for another job, your ability to leave on a whim is your ability to negotiate.

Better yet go find some artists, seek out people who want art, charge the artists an agent's fee (a modest percentage of the profit they make) and if the one purchasing the art is dumb enough to purchase it through you then you can add your own margin to the commission's price. With time you can introduce yourself to ever more artists and ever more patrons which makes your self employment as an art broker ever more profitable, and it doesn't have to be art you can be a broker for ANYTHING so long as someone's looking to buy, someone's looking to sell and you've got the salesmanship to make the sale.

Or prototype something and crowdsource it, all you need is one good idea.
Sit down and make a list of 100 ideas, it'll take a few hours and they'll mostly be garbage but that's alright, do it again tomorrow, and the day after, and they day after that. Every time you make one of these list pick out your top five and add them to a new list, then when you have 100 pick out the top five from that list, they say ideas are a dime a dozen and that may be so but you have an infinite supply. Just remember the best idea in the world is still worthless if you don't act upon it.

#### sushi

##### Active Member
Marx already said that labour is bought by employers who transform their resources and assets into final products. and these final products are being sold to the market for a profit.

when you work for employer , you learn how the production process work and the secret of the trade/business.

its actually a two way gain, you pick up skill and knowledge and experience from employer while he "exploits" you and pay you the minmimum as possible. but most employers are assholes who fire people too early, and don't let their workers gain too much skill and experience.

Or prototype something and crowdsource it, all you need is one good idea.
Sit down and make a list of 100 ideas, it'll take a few hours and they'll mostly be garbage but that's alright, do it again tomorrow, and the day after, and they day after that. Every time you make one of these list pick out your top five and add them to a new list, then when you have 100 pick out the top five from that list, they say ideas are a dime a dozen and that may be so but you have an infinite supply. Just remember the best idea in the world is still worthless if you don't act upon it.
thats actually a good idea.

#### lightfire

##### ._.
Hey cool idea Cognisant, I've always wanted to have my own way of earning income, and not working for someone else. It's always been in the back of my head. I have some thinking to do.

#### Cognisant

##### Prolific Member
its actually a two way gain, you pick up skill and knowledge and experience from employer while he "exploits" you and pay you the minmimum as possible. but most employers are assholes who fire people too early, and don't let their workers gain too much skill and experience.
The thing is you can work in insurance and you'll never make enough to start your own insurance company, you can work in manufacturing and although you might be able to start off investing in a single mill/lathe the profit margin on individual parts is too low to make it your primary source of income, even starting your own bakery or cafe is difficult when you're competing with franchises that have centralized logistics that benefit from an economy of scale.

Imo you're best of working in sales or a creative industry, you own your ability to sell or to create art, nobody can take those skills away from you and you don't need products to sell to get selling or an IP to work with to create art that people will enjoy.

I was talking with my father recently and he wants to go freelance with his skills/qualifications/experience as a WH&S (work health and safety) manager, advising individuals and/or business on how to have a happier/healthier workplace environment. Now I've been in his ear trying to convince him to try and find people like himself (in the health & safety industry or better yet just starting out) and convincing them to give him their contact details so he can use his skills/qualifications/experience to find work for them. I mean nobody really wants a fifty something guy going around their office telling people how to use their swivel chairs and advising them to take the stairs, but some athletic twenty-something fresh out of uni looking for a leg up in the industry? Now we're talking business.

Hey cool idea Cognisant, I've always wanted to have my own way of earning income, and not working for someone else. It's always been in the back of my head. I have some thinking to do.
I think we live in a modern Renaissance, sure goings on don't seem quite as classy as that period but that's not what I mean, rather I'm talking about there being lots of people with lots of money which allows for the making and selling of frivolous things.

That coffee table I linked to in the OP, it's completely pointless but it looks cool, nobody really needs a coffee table like that, it's not cheaper to manufacture coffee tables that way, but it appeals to people.

#### Serac

##### A menacing post slithers
I have been thinking a lot about doing a startup etc. The problem with running a business, however, is pretty much the same as being an employee; you're never really free. If you're the CEO of a business, you have to answer to the shareholders. So you would have to both be the CEO and main shareholder (which means you need a lot of money to invest in your own company to begin with). If you're the CEO and the main shareholder, are you free then? Well I'm not so sure. Maybe, but you still have to answer to the demands of the market, satisfy the demands of clients, attend meetings and discuss stupid shit, etc.

I'm looking for ways to make moneys without having to answer to anyone.

But in general terms, if you want to make money, you need a domain where

1) your idea is easily scalable. For example selling stuff on ebay is not scalable, because in order to sell, say, 10x the amount of product you would have to put in probably close to 10x the work (not exactly but you get the idea). If you're for example trading stocks instead, you can scale your ideas almost without limit – all you have to do is to increase the amounts you are trading with. Add an extra zero at the back of your order and boom – you're risking 10x the original amount.

2) There should be a high skill/knowledge gap in the domain. For example trading stocks is not a good idea as per this criterion, because you're competing in a domain which has been extensively researched for over a century and most people who participate have a high level of sophistication. I.e. the domain has become efficient so to speak. You need a domain in early stages of development.

#### baccheion

##### Active Member
I have been thinking a lot about doing a startup etc. The problem with running a business, however, is pretty much the same as being an employee; you're never really free. If you're the CEO of a business, you have to answer to the shareholders. So you would have to both be the CEO and main shareholder (which means you need a lot of money to invest in your own company to begin with). If you're the CEO and the main shareholder, are you free then? Well I'm not so sure. Maybe, but you still have to answer to the demands of the market, satisfy the demands of clients, attend meetings and discuss stupid shit, etc.

I'm looking for ways to make moneys without having to answer to anyone.

But in general terms, if you want to make money, you need a domain where

1) your idea is easily scalable. For example selling stuff on ebay is not scalable, because in order to sell, say, 10x the amount of product you would have to put in probably close to 10x the work (not exactly but you get the idea). If you're for example trading stocks instead, you can scale your ideas almost without limit – all you have to do is to increase the amounts you are trading with. Add an extra zero at the back of your order and boom – you're risking 10x the original amount.

2) There should be a high skill/knowledge gap in the domain. For example trading stocks is not a good idea as per this criterion, because you're competing in a domain which has been extensively researched for over a century and most people who participate have a high level of sophistication. I.e. the domain has become efficient so to speak. You need a domain in early stages of development.
You're getting caught up in terminology. Even then, you're probably trying to start a lifestyle business. There's a high probability many newer VCs are INTP.

What's there to a business? Finding a market. An accessible/penetrable market. To which you can deliver something they'll desire/purchase. At acceptable margins. For some time (5-10x the median price of housing = retirement). But any money more than a little money for any time is more money, I suppose.

#### Serac

##### A menacing post slithers
You're getting caught up in terminology. Even then, you're probably trying to start a lifestyle business. There's a high probability many newer VCs are INTP.

What's there to a business? Finding a market. An accessible/penetrable market. To which you can deliver something they'll desire/purchase. At acceptable margins. For some time (5-10x the median price of housing = retirement). But any money more than a little money for any time is more money, I suppose.
yeah everything is very simple when you ignore reality, the particulars, and the practicals. "Just find a market and save up 10x the median housing price". Sounds great, but I assume that for you, it's just a fantasy. I'm talking as someone who has been a part of multiple startup businesses, and someone who currently works in finance.

#### baccheion

##### Active Member
You're getting caught up in terminology. Even then, you're probably trying to start a lifestyle business. There's a high probability many newer VCs are INTP.

What's there to a business? Finding a market. An accessible/penetrable market. To which you can deliver something they'll desire/purchase. At acceptable margins. For some time (5-10x the median price of housing = retirement). But any money more than a little money for any time is more money, I suppose.
yeah everything is very simple when you ignore reality, the particulars, and the practicals. "Just find a market and save up 10x the median housing price". Sounds great, but I assume that for you, it's just a fantasy. I'm talking as someone who has been a part of multiple startup businesses, and someone who currently works in finance.
Finding a (penetrable/accessible) market with acceptable margins is 90% of the battle. Almost everything can be outsourced. On the other hand, the edge could be from being able to absorb the costs (ie, do the most expensive things yourself). Earning enough to retire is a different story. On the other hand, if a market is found, financial security usually follows. That is, even YouTubers who manage to break through the noise make millions selling courses or other products.

In a way, there's money everywhere. How do you make money from smaller niches? One way is to create 40 sites/products that make $500/mo. #### Serac ##### A menacing post slithers @baccheion so what's your experience with implementing this in practice? #### baccheion ##### Active Member @baccheion so what's your experience with implementing this in practice? I suppose it's limited, but you're missing the point. What about market-tested and appropriately-/cost-curve- priced eBooks/courses that are fed traffic via SEM, SEO, and other networks? Sites that go in detail about one product (a laptop, for example, or a multivitamin) and include an affiliate link? Unsure. Small crumbs scrape together. More passive is better, as it minimizes overhead. The cheaper a product, the more likely it is to get bought. The more expensive, the more it needs to be sold and the smaller the market. But then there are things like cost curves and projections to maximize. Find keywords with the highest traffic (huge market, huge appeal, and huge competition) and build products/sites/eBooks/whatever around them. It's usually easier to go after popular markets, unless you fail. Failure also tends to happen quickly, saving effort and time. It also tends to be clear early on if something viable is in play. #### Serac ##### A menacing post slithers this is why I'm talking about scalability. It doesn't matter what your profit margin is if the actual monetary profit is$500 per month. It's obviously very possible to have some niche thing that you do on your own and make some extra pocket change every month, but if you're talking about actually running a business and making big bucks, that's a whole different story.

and I know you would say: well just run 40 niche busnisses and voilá, you're getting rich. That's not realistic, namely because of the lack of scalability. You obviously cannot have the same profit margin with 40 businesses as you can have with 1 – you'll need employees, storage space, etc etc.

#### Cognisant

##### Prolific Member
You don't need to sell a product you can just sell the brand, for example there's this brand of beer I've devised called Bumchunder the beer from down under. Of course that doesn't sound very nice but it's hilarious and I can tell people overseas that it's a wildly popular new beer in Australia. Fosters have been doing this for years, nobody in Australia drinks Fosters, most people don't even know who or what Fosters is.

You come up with this brand, you make youtube ads and internet memes and a facebook page for it, really sell the idea that it's this amazing new beer that's only available in Australia because it sells out as soon as it's made, then loan the brand to breweries in Europe and America.

#### sushi

##### Active Member
The thing is you can work in insurance and you'll never make enough to start your own insurance company, you can work in manufacturing and although you might be able to start off investing in a single mill/lathe the profit margin on individual parts is too low to make it your primary source of income, even starting your own bakery or cafe is difficult when you're competing with franchises that have centralized logistics that benefit from an economy of scale.

Imo you're best of working in sales or a creative industry, you own your ability to sell or to create art, nobody can take those skills away from you and you don't need products to sell to get selling or an IP to work with to create art that people will enjoy.
If the business is entrenched and most people won't switch to alternative services and products then there is no competition. Economy of scale is just david vs goliath.

there are people with years of skills, knowledge and experience but wont take the risk of starting their own venture, so they end up working for others.

then there are those with little or no experience, and don't know wtf they are doing everyday, so they end up being employed by others again.

most business still depend on labor skills and knowledge, but they dont want you to know that secret.

#### Pizzabeak

##### Prolific Member
I think people usually start with volunteering first just to get some action started before finding success in a career path or high paying job. If you aren't employed, there are still a lot of good side income opportunities that even if you failed at before can try again with better luck or knowledge. When it comes to making money, you don't just give up. If you aren't satisfied with a workplace scenario or need more aid paying bills such as parent/guardian or foster kid situations, that's when it really matters. Even school is a bad long term investment because you sink so much money into it, you end up not liking it by the time you graduate, that is, if you can't find a job or weren't working part or full time during your education. It's better to go to a trade school, then use as much opportunity looking into and practicing other money making hobbies too. Any other thing doesn't matter. When you see people with lots of money, it isn't just some thing they have or got, it's all they do. It's just years of work combined, all that time compounds. They make it their life and have nothing really else to do, they don't spend money on superfluous stuff, and even if they have a family they have enough, it becomes a main focus. So a lemonade stand wouldn't hurt, although I'd advise managing one, rather than simply opening one up and seeing where its operation goes.

It's better to adopt that attitude, or have the "samurai" disposition, as well as reading Art of War. You're basically there to work/make money, not make friends. You can try to make money with friends but it usually doesn't work out. You have to accept nature and how it works in conjunction with civilization, and just do the hard work. The time for friends is when you're a kid, later on in adulthood, such concepts don't really exist.

#### baccheion

##### Active Member
I think people usually start with volunteering first just to get some action started before finding success in a career path or high paying job. If you aren't employed, there are still a lot of good side income opportunities that even if you failed at before can try again with better luck or knowledge. When it comes to making money, you don't just give up. If you aren't satisfied with a workplace scenario or need more aid paying bills such as parent/guardian or foster kid situations, that's when it really matters. Even school is a bad long term investment because you sink so much money into it, you end up not liking it by the time you graduate, that is, if you can't find a job or weren't working part or full time during your education. It's better to go to a trade school, then use as much opportunity looking into and practicing other money making hobbies too. Any other thing doesn't matter. When you see people with lots of money, it isn't just some thing they have or got, it's all they do. It's just years of work combined, all that time compounds. They make it their life and have nothing really else to do, they don't spend money on superfluous stuff, and even if they have a family they have enough, it becomes a main focus. So a lemonade stand wouldn't hurt, although I'd advise managing one, rather than simply opening one up and seeing where its operation goes.

It's better to adopt that attitude, or have the "samurai" disposition, as well as reading Art of War. You're basically there to work/make money, not make friends. You can try to make money with friends but it usually doesn't work out. You have to accept nature and how it works in conjunction with civilization, and just do the hard work. The time for friends is when you're a kid, later on in adulthood, such concepts don't really exist.
Most with a lot of money are unethical, uncharitable, boring (beyond penny pinching), and stingy. Once dug into, it becomes clear acquiring wealth usually requires theft and deception. There's also savers, but though such an approach is accessible, they aren't common (except maybe among senior citizens). Also, saving while working 9-5 enables retirement not wealth.

#### Serac

##### A menacing post slithers
Most with a lot of money are unethical, uncharitable, boring (beyond penny pinching), and stingy. Once dug into, it becomes clear acquiring wealth usually requires theft and deception. There's also savers, but though such an approach is accessible, they aren't common (except maybe among senior citizens). Also, saving while working 9-5 enables retirement not wealth.
in my experience, people who don't know how to make money are the most stingy, greedy, opportunistic and parasitic people you can find. Resourceful people who have money and know how to make money tend to be the opposite in every way.

another thing I have observed is that most people simply don't have what it takes to make a lot of money. Most people are too lazy, too unfocused, too risk-averse and too content with mediocrity to do anything beyond getting a 9-5 and make the median salary. So since it would be inconceivable to them to do what it takes to be really successful, they naturally reason that whoever actually did succeed must have done so by stealing and deceiving.

#### baccheion

##### Active Member
Most with a lot of money are unethical, uncharitable, boring (beyond penny pinching), and stingy. Once dug into, it becomes clear acquiring wealth usually requires theft and deception. There's also savers, but though such an approach is accessible, they aren't common (except maybe among senior citizens). Also, saving while working 9-5 enables retirement not wealth.
in my experience, people who don't know how to make money are the most stingy, greedy, opportunistic and parasitic people you can find. Resourceful people who have money and know how to make money tend to be the opposite in every way.

another thing I have observed is that most people simply don't have what it takes to make a lot of money. Most people are too lazy, too unfocused, too risk-averse and too content with mediocrity to do anything beyond getting a 9-5 and make the median salary. So since it would be inconceivable to them to do what it takes to be really successful, they naturally reason that whoever actually did succeed must have done so by stealing and deceiving.
What majority have made a lot of money and are ethical, etc beyond a facade? Maybe the tech bubble minted some wealthy people, but most of them are shit. Whoever sat at the "top of the pyramid." Everyone else has to sit with the reality: they get nothing or maybe crumbs. It's an illusion.

#### Serac

##### A menacing post slithers
What majority have made a lot of money and are ethical, etc beyond a facade? Maybe the tech bubble minted some wealthy people, but most of them are shit. Whoever sat at the "top of the pyramid." Everyone else has to sit with the reality: they get nothing or maybe crumbs. It's an illusion.
most people who made it big are typically entrepreneurs. A lot of entrepreneurs fail because they take risks – risks that, if turn out to pay off, benefit society as a whole. Some of these become large businesses that provide jobs, economic growth, and benefits for you and me – like the ability to go to a store to buy high-quality products at a low cost. For example you are a big fan of supplements. Those supplement companies are making some entrepreneurs wealthy, but these companies wouldn't exist if everyone's strategy would be just working a stable 9-5 and save up for retirement.

#### baccheion

##### Active Member
What majority have made a lot of money and are ethical, etc beyond a facade? Maybe the tech bubble minted some wealthy people, but most of them are shit. Whoever sat at the "top of the pyramid." Everyone else has to sit with the reality: they get nothing or maybe crumbs. It's an illusion.
most people who made it big are typically entrepreneurs. A lot of entrepreneurs fail because they take risks – risks that, if turn out to pay off, benefit society as a whole. Some of these become large businesses that provide jobs, economic growth, and benefits for you and me – like the ability to go to a store to buy high-quality products at a low cost. For example you are a big fan of supplements. Those supplement companies are making some entrepreneurs wealthy, but these companies wouldn't exist if everyone's strategy would be just working a stable 9-5 and save up for retirement.
Few do anything other than work 9-5. The majority of wealthy individuals got there via (indirect/effectively) theft or deception. There are some, as always, that arrived due to luck or timing. The majority who conduct business honestly find there's actually no market, get shafted, or maybe limp toward "financial independence."

There's usually no market. That is, most can't find or penetrate any market. Most have nothing, but still they continue.

There are many more INTJs and ENTJs among (self-made) billionaires than would be expected. Some/Few via hard work, but most via being pure evil. Then maybe they give a bit to charity to make themselves look good or feel better. But as many experience as they inch a bit closer toward having money or being a bit wiser/aware, charity with many rich people is rarely charity if it happened at all. There's usually a another reason: seeking a tax break, sending money to shell companies, trying to get a business deal, trying to indirectly increase revenue, trying to make themselves look good while having actually done none of what's claimed, etc.

Billionaire money is paper money. It's fiction. Most never understand what that means. But I suppose what's being talked about isn't that sort of money.

#### sushi

##### Active Member
Most with a lot of money are unethical, uncharitable, boring (beyond penny pinching), and stingy. Once dug into, it becomes clear acquiring wealth usually requires theft and deception. There's also savers, but though such an approach is accessible, they aren't common (except maybe among senior citizens). Also, saving while working 9-5 enables retirement not wealth.
in my experience, people who don't know how to make money are the most stingy, greedy, opportunistic and parasitic people you can find. Resourceful people who have money and know how to make money tend to be the opposite in every way.

another thing I have observed is that most people simply don't have what it takes to make a lot of money. Most people are too lazy, too unfocused, too risk-averse and too content with mediocrity to do anything beyond getting a 9-5 and make the median salary. So since it would be inconceivable to them to do what it takes to be really successful, they naturally reason that whoever actually did succeed must have done so by stealing and deceiving.
most people equate working hard= wealth when there are much more factors and variables involved than that.

alot of people work there ass off but still can't reach weath. a person must idenitfy his way to wealth and follow it through. you actually have to be stingy and put money above everything else if you want to get a pot of gold.

#### baccheion

##### Active Member
Most with a lot of money are unethical, uncharitable, boring (beyond penny pinching), and stingy. Once dug into, it becomes clear acquiring wealth usually requires theft and deception. There's also savers, but though such an approach is accessible, they aren't common (except maybe among senior citizens). Also, saving while working 9-5 enables retirement not wealth.
in my experience, people who don't know how to make money are the most stingy, greedy, opportunistic and parasitic people you can find. Resourceful people who have money and know how to make money tend to be the opposite in every way.

another thing I have observed is that most people simply don't have what it takes to make a lot of money. Most people are too lazy, too unfocused, too risk-averse and too content with mediocrity to do anything beyond getting a 9-5 and make the median salary. So since it would be inconceivable to them to do what it takes to be really successful, they naturally reason that whoever actually did succeed must have done so by stealing and deceiving.
most people equate working hard= wealth when there are much more factors and variables involved than that.

alot of people work there ass off but still can't reach weath. a person must idenitfy his way to wealth and follow it through. you actually have to be stingy and put money above everything else if you want to get a pot of gold.
Working hard is pushed such that the ones at the top can "get more out of." Others push the notion in an attempt to keep everyone else down, because they have work ethic and no talent, or to excuse trying to get more for less.

#### sushi

##### Active Member
Most with a lot of money are unethical, uncharitable, boring (beyond penny pinching), and stingy. Once dug into, it becomes clear acquiring wealth usually requires theft and deception. There's also savers, but though such an approach is accessible, they aren't common (except maybe among senior citizens). Also, saving while working 9-5 enables retirement not wealth.
in my experience, people who don't know how to make money are the most stingy, greedy, opportunistic and parasitic people you can find. Resourceful people who have money and know how to make money tend to be the opposite in every way.

another thing I have observed is that most people simply don't have what it takes to make a lot of money. Most people are too lazy, too unfocused, too risk-averse and too content with mediocrity to do anything beyond getting a 9-5 and make the median salary. So since it would be inconceivable to them to do what it takes to be really successful, they naturally reason that whoever actually did succeed must have done so by stealing and deceiving.
most people equate working hard= wealth when there are much more factors and variables involved than that.

alot of people work there ass off but still can't reach weath. a person must idenitfy his way to wealth and follow it through. you actually have to be stingy and put money above everything else if you want to get a pot of gold.
Working hard is pushed such that the ones at the top can "get more out of." Others push the notion in an attempt to keep everyone else down, because they have work ethic and no talent, or to excuse trying to get more for less.
are you a socialist?

I am making the arguement that of course it is not enough.

#### Serac

##### A menacing post slithers
@baccheion I would say you have a worldview which is both inaccurate and counterproductive, but that's just my opinion.

#### baccheion

##### Active Member
@baccheion I would say you have a worldview which is both inaccurate and counterproductive, but that's just my opinion.
How so?

#### Serac

##### A menacing post slithers
@baccheion I would say you have a worldview which is both inaccurate and counterproductive, but that's just my opinion.
How so?
because you are convincing yourself it's impossible to make money without lying and stealing.

it's a defense mechanism for the ego, as opposed to an actual assessment of reality

#### baccheion

##### Active Member
@baccheion I would say you have a worldview which is both inaccurate and counterproductive, but that's just my opinion.
How so?
because you are convincing yourself it's impossible to make money without lying and stealing.

it's a defense mechanism for the ego, as opposed to an actual assessment of reality
I'm saying most who have become wealthy did so via theft and/or deception. That is an assessment of the wealthy pool not what I assume to be required.