making big decisions

[shoeless]

how do you do it?

big decisions stress me out immensely. i can barely pick what kind of ice cream i want, how the hell am i supposed to choose where i want to live for the next two years of my life?

when i get stressed out, i start making a lot of useless lists (pros/cons lists, situation-possibility lists, etc). when it's a problem that ties into emotional difficulties, i either totally shut down or get really anxious and frantic and try to analyze the emotional part of it (on paper, since otherwise i would get totally lost in my head and lose crucial "data") as to make sure i'm being logical and not letting my emotions interfere with the decision-making process, which is also often rather fruitless.

then i ask everyone else what they think, as to get new perspectives on the issue, but then i have to consider their biases and more often than not reject their advice anyway, because they aren't objective.

i usually end up going with the easy/obvious decision, even if it's not necessarily what i want, because it's easy/obvious. if there is no easy/obvious decision, then i go with what causes the least amount of ruckus.

basically, i suck at making decisions.

what do you do, and how well does it work for you?

Spoiler

yeah, right now i'm under immense stress, and i have to make a major decision as to whether i want to move back to texas with my mom or stay in germany with my dad... it sucks. a lot.

 

[Darby]

I know what you mean, currently I am looking at colleges, I go to a college prep school, but my grades are barely tolerable(they actually grade on....homework *shudders*), and my SAT scores were good, but below average for me. so far from my view i seem pretty screwed. My mom wants me to apply to these big fancy colleges, which i would probably do well at, but i know myself well enough that i'm worried i'll get bored. i personally don't make lists, not tangible ones anyway, when i try to say "I want to learn about physics" im good for about a week, and then I say "I want to learn about Chemisty" when it's entirely possible i don't really care about either, but my brain feels the need to decide, but neither decision feels totally right

maybe this is not how you feel, but it IS how i feel about decisions

 

[Nicholas A. A. E.]

when i get stressed out, i start making a lot of useless lists (pros/cons lists, situation-possibility lists, etc). when it's a problem that ties into emotional difficulties, i either totally shut down or get really anxious and frantic and try to analyze the emotional part of it (on paper, since otherwise i would get totally lost in my head and lose crucial "data") as to make sure i'm being logical and not letting my emotions interfere with the decision-making process, which is also often rather fruitless.

That's pretty much me right there. But only when it's a seriously important decision. If it's not important enough, I might not put out the effort. I'll prefer to postpone the decision far off.

For some small decisions, I will actually use a random number generator. If people ask me, I say it's because I like giving up a little control in my life, throwing in some unknown factors to make it interesting. But it's actually because sometimes I just don't like making the decision myself. This is for trivial things for which one choice is not really better than another, like which of these three songs to listen to first.

This hearkens back to when I was a little kid and I was a perfectionist in the sense that I would try to have no influence on the world. In the sense that I would pick up a book to look at it, and then carefully put it back in exactly the same orientation. I was a weird little kid.

I'm facing the decision of where I want to go to college for the next four years. It's probably the most important decision of my life so far. So far, my mom has done a truly enormous amount of work on it. Researching colleges. The way it's gone a lot so far is she'll ask me my preferences, then she'll make the decisions. So far I think it's gone pretty well. It helps that I want to go to a smaller lib-arts school (with good sci. depts.!), rather than a prestigious university. I've got decent/mediocre grades, but superb SATs. So the anxiety for me isn't going to be "will I get in," but "which will I pick?"

Of course, the final decision will be mine. The thought of this drives me to collect more data. In the sense of college visits, rather than statistics. (Si versus Se, I suppose.)

It's times like these I want to be able to go to ALL of them. Explore the potential permutations of all my decisions.

I wish you luck with your own choice. [This sentence because I felt bad posting only about myself. ]

 

[Thoughtful]

The trick my friend, is to somehow convert it all into 2 variables that override all other factors, for instance, in your case I might ask myself: which location will provide the most potential for solitude?

The hard part is forcing yourself to make a choice. In a particularly tough situation, I usually opt for the leap of faith approach:

Pray to your deity of choice to guide your decision, then, unless you suddenly feel inspired to choose one or the other (sometimes happens to me, or so it seems), grab a quarter. Once you have your quarter. write yourself a mental contract saying you are bound by the decision of the coin, designate Choice A as heads, and Choice B as tails, and let her flip. I usually pick the choice that lands facing down, because I'm odd that way.

Haven't regretted the method so far, although I only resort to it when a decision must be made now, no sense trusting it to luck until you run out of time to collect data.

EDIT: Missed nick's post. Random number generators are okay, but for big decisions, narrow it to two, and then go with the coin.

BTW, where you thinking about going nick? (go ahead with your current list, you can modify it all you want later) I'm always open to new suggestions for colleges to attend.

 

[Nicholas A. A. E.]

University of Dallas [TX]
Wabash College [IN]
Hope College [MI]
Gustavus Adolphus College [MN]
Centre College [KY]
Juniata College [PA]
Allegheny College [PA]
Truman State University [MO]
Lafayette College [PA]
University of Washington [WA]
Trinity University [TX]
University of Idaho [ID]
Denison University [OH]

 

[flow]

Dear Shoeless, decisions are difficult to make. I find it's best to write out all the pros and cons of the options at hand. What do you like about living with your dad? Do you enjoy Germany? Where in Texas would you be? Do you enjoy the presence of your mom? How do you feel about guns, football, and oil? How do you feel about the autobahn, volkswagens, and Europe? Write everything out about either option that you can possibly think of, and the answer will present itself. Good luck.

Love, flow

 

[Artifice Orisit]

Or you could just flip a coin and if you don't like the result then there you go, you now know the result you wanted (consciously or not). However if the result (once changed) is still unsatisfactory you should flip again and just go with whatever result you got, if it still makes you unhappy and yet you still don't know what you want, well mate you're screwed.

So just go with it, at least it is a result.

 

[shoeless]

UGH HOW DO I KNOW IF I AM BEING RATIONAL.

it's too emotionally involved to tell. honestly. i HATE emotions, they're so hard to analyze.

also, i hate the future, it's so hard to predict.

my useless lists are useless. my gut is telling me to go back to texas, but how do i know if i can trust my gut? how do i know if my gut has considered all the academic bullshit i'd have to deal with? how do i know if my gut isn't idealizing my mom/friends in texas/etc and demonizing my dad/the atmosphere in germany/etc, unfairly?

i can't do the coin flip thing. i won't listen to the result, no matter what it is. i hate the concept of chance.

SIGH.

 

[Ashenstar]

Forgive me, but a lot of things in life are like legos.

If you choose one, and then change your mind or decide that you hate the choice you made, could you possibly then go with your second option?

 

[shoeless]

that's sort of what's already happened.

before i moved here, i had to decide that i wanted to move here. i hated texas, but i honestly think it was mainly because of the atmosphere at home... my parents were having issues, and it rubbed off on me quite a bit. but i could just be saying that now to try to convince myself to go back because i'm being weirdly emotional, or something. i don't know.

either way, this decision is final. it's all or nothing.

ugh.

 

[Ashenstar]

I see.
Why would you want to move to Texas?
Why would you want to stay with your dad?

 

[shoeless]

reasons to move:
i miss my cat, i miss my mom, she's willing to get me a decent therapist (which is like three and a half years overdue, you have no idea), i miss living in a house with atmosphere, i miss my friend, i want to be able to get my driver's license (in germany you can't until you're eighteen), i want to be able to get a job, i miss the big screen TV and having non-military-propoganda tv to watch, the transition into college should be easier if i'm already in the states, plus my brothers are there and they might be able to help me out since they've already been through all that shit, i miss having decent shopping, i can't stand my dad and living with him makes me miserable, i miss being able to eat healthy all the time... blah blah blah. that's off the top of my head.

reasons to stay:
my friends here are amazing, the school is much smaller & cozier & nicer, the academic portion of it is less annoying, the school day is shorter, if i move my math credit for this semester might not transfer over, plus i'd have to do an accelerated program in order to finish this semester early so i can leave by christmas break which is the only way to make the transition clean, if i leave there are missed opportunities for travel in europe (though it would be travel with my dad... euck), i'd miss my AP english class, as much as a pain in the ass it is, and... i dunno.

bottom line is, i'm happier with school here, but i'd be happier at home there.

 

[Da Blob]

I came across a very useful heuristic a few years back and it has become part of my tool box. It is the O. O. D. A. loop. It was developed as a life-saving technique to be used in battle, but it is applicable to most scenarios in RL. I would suggest that INTPians may wish to invest in the Orientation phase as that may be our weak point....(?)

(Afterthought - actually the four steps seem to correlate to the four scales of the MBTI-- calls for further investigation???)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop

BTW for this technique to be of use, it almost needs to be seen as a advanced form of the old standard Trial-and-Error method of decision making... with the provision for multiple trials or repeated cycles should the first decision prove to be erroneous...

EDIT: This looks right? thoughts?

Observation = Sensing/Intuitive
Orientation = Feeling/Thinking
Decision = Judgement/Perceive
Action = Extroversion/Introversion

EDIT 2: I never thought of the four scales of the MBTI having a 'proper' temporal sequence... calls for further investigation???

EDIT 3: I wonder if a dominant function would be 'first' in individual's sequence...?

Edit 4- Help! I am over my head...

EDIT 5: NTPI instead of INTP? NiTPIcker?

 

[transformers]

Yup, I get immensely anxious when I have to take important decisions too, especially if there is approaching deadline. I think this is common among INTP's. We become a bit paranoid under these conditions, and delay and worry about the decision far more than is usually warranted. Most of the time, no matter what choice we make, we tend to be able to adapt to the situation quite well. We just lack confidence in our own decision making abilities, probably because we are so open minded that we never really believe we know enough to take the right decision. This definitely separates us from the more decisive and self confident INTJ's.
Good luck with whatever you decide. I wouldn't want to be in your "shoes" right now :P

 

[Inappropriate Behavior]

Somewhere deep in your gut, there is a feeling that has a preference as to where you want to go. It's not easy to recognise so do the following (I know it sounds strange but it works):

1. Look down at your stomach and concentrate on it for a moment. Not just staring at it but try to feel it with your mind.

2. Now let the first thought float through your mind.....To Texas with mom and what that involves. Pay attention to how it feels in your gut.

3. Repeat step 2 with the thought....Stay in Germany with dad and all that will mean.

If you pay close attention to how it feels in your gut when you have each thought, you should be able to distinguish certain levels of aprehension. One of them should make you more aprehensive than the other. Go with the lesser choice.

I know it doesn't sound scientific but it is (I just don't know how to explain it). Your gut is telling you what your brain won't. It's telling you which choice you feel most comfortable with (or the least uncomfortable if you aren't happy with either choice). Your brain is confusing you. Perhaps deliberately as it is a big decision and it doesn't want to make it But deep down, in your gut, you know which choice you truly want to take.

 

[walfin]

When you're in brainlock, choose something randomly.

 

[Jaico]

Somewhere deep in your gut, there is a feeling that has a preference as to where you want to go. It's not easy to recognise so do the following (I know it sounds strange but it works):

1. Look down at your stomach and concentrate on it for a moment. Not just staring at it but try to feel it with your mind.

2. Now let the first thought float through your mind.....To Texas with mom and what that involves. Pay attention to how it feels in your gut.

3. Repeat step 2 with the thought....Stay in Germany with dad and all that will mean.

If you pay close attention to how it feels in your gut when you have each thought, you should be able to distinguish certain levels of aprehension. One of them should make you more aprehensive than the other. Go with the lesser choice.

I know it doesn't sound scientific but it is (I just don't know how to explain it). Your gut is telling you what your brain won't. It's telling you which choice you feel most comfortable with (or the least uncomfortable if you aren't happy with either choice). Your brain is confusing you. Perhaps deliberately as it is a big decision and it doesn't want to make it But deep down, in your gut, you know which choice you truly want to take.

I think IB put it pretty well in his post; I'd go with what your 'gut' tells you and try not to rationalize it too much (funny saying that on a forum for INTPs...) Anyhow, just go with what you think feels right, and more importantly, once you've made your choice, don't fret about it. There's a study that demonstrated that people who deliberated on a choice actually regretted their choice more (I wish I could find it...but I can't - it does exist, though), so once you've gone and picked whichever one you want, just don't worry about it. The grass is always greener on the other side, so...I'd just go with what feels right (that might just be me, though). I did manage to find a podcast that I think talks on the subject (through google; I haven't listened to it unfortunately). I don't know if this helped, or if it just made it worse, actually ...

 

[ckm]

If your gut says go back to Texas, then go back to Texas. That's all the advice I can give.

Note I'm not making light of your situation. This is obviously a big decision; bigger than any decision I've ever made, I imagine. If it were me, I would probably wait for someone else to convince me - I'm not exactly praciticing what I'm advocating, I'll admit that. But I am aware that you should follow your aversion, and follow you intuition. Sometimes we don't know everything, unfortunately.

 

[Dormouse]

This thread is pretty much me... Goodness.

I'm not great at advice, but I'd agree with the above post. Whatever choice you make, be certain it's set in stone. Then, as hard as it may be, abandon yourself to fate. Stop agonizing and just enjoy the ride.
If you backtrack and change your mind at the last minute you'll only regret more intensely later... And regret is pretty much inevitable. But bearable.

Good luck.

 

[Ulysses]

Yeah, remember what the dormouse said.

 

[Enne]

I have yet to learn how to do it. The wrong school, the wrong major, to some extent, the wrong kind of friends, the wrong classes within said major (I've switched thrice). I survive on the ability to change my decisions. I don't want to come across as a fate nut, but I feel like the smallest actions on my part seem to come back to bite me in the ass, like I'm living in irony hell. Being naturally good at mathematics probably is the only thing that would come before wanting to be an immensely better decision maker. I envy J types to no end in that regard. I don't think I've ever made the 'correct' decision regarding a major decision once in my entire life, and I envy the way they seem to have an effortless master plan to follow. Also, they don't seem to lose any sleep over regrets (not my strongest suit). Part of my problem probably comes from the fact that I don't really know myself, so I can't choose what's best for a me that I don't know. It would really be nice to at least make beneficial snap decisions, though.

 

[snowqueen]

These are very big decisions for a young person to have to make - we parents have a lot to answer for. It's not you who needs therapy!! You need to be able to get on with you life without having to worry. [hugs shoeless]

reasons to move:
i miss my cat, i miss my mom, she's willing to get me a decent therapist (which is like three and a half years overdue, you have no idea), i miss living in a house with atmosphere, i miss my friend, i want to be able to get my driver's license (in germany you can't until you're eighteen), i want to be able to get a job, i miss the big screen TV and having non-military-propoganda tv to watch, the transition into college should be easier if i'm already in the states, plus my brothers are there and they might be able to help me out since they've already been through all that shit, i miss having decent shopping, i can't stand my dad and living with him makes me miserable, i miss being able to eat healthy all the time... blah blah blah. that's off the top of my head.

reasons to stay:
my friends here are amazing, the school is much smaller & cozier & nicer, the academic portion of it is less annoying, the school day is shorter, if i move my math credit for this semester might not transfer over, plus i'd have to do an accelerated program in order to finish this semester early so i can leave by christmas break which is the only way to make the transition clean, if i leave there are missed opportunities for travel in europe (though it would be travel with my dad... euck), i'd miss my AP english class, as much as a pain in the ass it is, and... i dunno.

bottom line is, i'm happier with school here, but i'd be happier at home there.

My response to this would be that if you are able to use your German qualifications in the USA, bite the bullet and stay in Deutschland to complete your studies and then move back to the US. If you look at your two options, the US one will still be there in one, two years time - all the things are external. The German option is about stuff you will carry with you for the rest of your life - your education is unbelievably important and if it's working for you at the moment, I wouldn't jeopardise it.

Somewhere deep in your gut, there is a feeling that has a preference as to where you want to go. It's not easy to recognise so do the following (I know it sounds strange but it works):

1. Look down at your stomach and concentrate on it for a moment. Not just staring at it but try to feel it with your mind.

2. Now let the first thought float through your mind.....To Texas with mom and what that involves. Pay attention to how it feels in your gut.

3. Repeat step 2 with the thought....Stay in Germany with dad and all that will mean.

If you pay close attention to how it feels in your gut when you have each thought, you should be able to distinguish certain levels of aprehension. One of them should make you more aprehensive than the other. Go with the lesser choice.

I know it doesn't sound scientific but it is (I just don't know how to explain it). Your gut is telling you what your brain won't. It's telling you which choice you feel most comfortable with (or the least uncomfortable if you aren't happy with either choice). Your brain is confusing you. Perhaps deliberately as it is a big decision and it doesn't want to make it But deep down, in your gut, you know which choice you truly want to take.

This is a good way too - I also think imagining a point somewhere in the future and looking back at this moment in time as your future self can be helpful.

Yeah, remember what the dormouse said.

Feed your head! nice Jefferson Starship quote and good to see you again Ulysses.

 

[shoeless]

i've pretty much decided to go...

regarding education, texas actually has a better education system (ironyyy!). the one here is just easier, and i'm an under-achiever. i'll do better in school if i'm happier anyway -- here i'm so stressed out and miserable at home, i never actually do my homework, or study or anything, because i want to drown my sorrows with oreos and the internet.

plus if i go, like i said, transitioning into college will be easier, plus i'll have people there who have already been through it to help me out regarding applications and stuff. and my sister in law somehow actually got her entire college career paid for by applying for scholarships, so she can help me with that.

germany has been good to me. but i need to go back. i'll be going back better-equipped to deal with people, and more experienced, and happier, so i can try again, and hopefully this time not fail. but i need to go back.



god, the next month is going to SUCK.

 

[420MuNkEy]

'gut'...That's a funny way to spell iNtuition

 

[shoeless]

yeah, well, i tend to trust my T over my N anyway.

but it's a good, good day when they actually agree with each other.

 

[Nicholas A. A. E.]

These are very big decisions for a young person to have to make - we parents have a lot to answer for. It's not you who needs therapy!! You need to be able to get on with you life without having to worry. [hugs shoeless]

Awwwwww.

 

[Scourgexlvii]

Usually, I'm better at making big major decisions, than inconsequential minor decisions. Mostly, though, I look at what I really want, and what will really benefit me in the long run, which is why I'm better at making big decisions, as minor ones really have no long term effects, so I can't determine which one is 'better'

But really look at the pros/cons, and decide which pros you like most, and which cons you wouldn't really mind

 

[420MuNkEy]

I actually don't find making big decisions hard. For example, dropping out of school was one of the easiest decisions I ever made. I think I tend to think with my mind and act with my intuitions and don't see a reason to connect the two. Then again, my thoughts tend to complement my intuition (vice-versa), rather than conflict.

 

[Da Blob]

Hmmm I tripped across this video while searching for something else on youtube. I can relate this to the OODA loop already mentioned - however, the technique is a bit different and some may be able to employ it...(?)

YouTube- Dr. Cheryl Clark: Five Steps To Decision Making

 

[asdfasdfasdfsdf]

how do you do it?

big decisions stress me out immensely. i can barely pick what kind of ice cream i want, how the hell am i supposed to choose where i want to live for the next two years of my life?

when i get stressed out, i start making a lot of useless lists (pros/cons lists, situation-possibility lists, etc). when it's a problem that ties into emotional difficulties, i either totally shut down or get really anxious and frantic and try to analyze the emotional part of it (on paper, since otherwise i would get totally lost in my head and lose crucial "data") as to make sure i'm being logical and not letting my emotions interfere with the decision-making process, which is also often rather fruitless.

then i ask everyone else what they think, as to get new perspectives on the issue, but then i have to consider their biases and more often than not reject their advice anyway, because they aren't objective.

i usually end up going with the easy/obvious decision, even if it's not necessarily what i want, because it's easy/obvious. if there is no easy/obvious decision, then i go with what causes the least amount of ruckus.

basically, i suck at making decisions.

what do you do, and how well does it work for you?

Spoiler

yeah, right now i'm under immense stress, and i have to make a major decision as to whether i want to move back to texas with my mom or stay in germany with my dad... it sucks. a lot.

sometimes i tear myself apart, and think end over end on these decisions. allot of the time, in the end, i just say "ehh, what the fuck" and pick a random choice - usually the one that sounds more interesting (very bad, i know).