Living productively as an INTP/J?

[balles roses]

I fall on the 50/50 split between P and J. Two of my closest friends are ENTJ and ENFP, respectively, and there are times I feel blessed to walk the line between, for the troubles I see either dealing with by themselves (inflexibility and conditional perfectionism that ignores worthy ideals to adhere to noticed ones vs. extreme indecisiveness and consequences for impulsive, irresponsible actions). However most of the time I tend to feel like the clashing of my separate inclinations is debilitating. I doubt myself more than anyone I have ever met and am often ashamed for reasons I either cannot properly articulate or do not wish to clarify.

I feel there is a great power here that could be harnessed, if only I knew how. I do not mind exhibiting either J or P behavior at one time, but with both tendencies buzzing around in my head, I feel like showing both makes me seem unintelligent: spirited but reluctant, opinionated but capricious. I also feel as if those who find themselves in territory further on either side have the advantage, for being either more certain about what they know or more fearless about what they want.

It's only when others point out the strengths I possess in action that I even notice them, and soon after, my awareness fades. My friends on the J side claim they envy that life seems more like an adventure to me than a test as it does for them, and my P friends say they appreciate the way I "prune" things, or can prioritize things in abstract discussion to clarify the information at hand. However I usually believe myself to be either mired in my own temporary impressions, which I can never draw a point from and afterward seem ill-informed or downright flimsy, or sailing straight ahead without a compass though I could have charted a course. In my stubborn longing to be right but profound incapability to define "right," determine what is right or believe something is right rather than wrong, I often fall upon defeatism, which disgusts me.

This is a topic I have attempted to relieve with friends on either side. The J side says to "stop wavering and just do it;" the P side says "hey man don't worry about it, just go with the flow!" To a member of one camp, to belong to the other seems like the worst kind of Hell... It makes one feel cursed!

Any ideas, INTPs and lurking INTJs? This very conflict may keep my peace of mind at bay forever....

 

[Words]

If your only on one "camp", I suggest slaving yourself in keeping its positives and throwing the rest, and then adapting only the good parts of the other camp. Likewise, it applies to your indecisive self as well.

You talk about being "productive" and yet ironically you can't find a place on both sides.

Wouldn't it be more productive to choose the productive J?

---

Similar to your situation, I find myself stubborn, enjoying closures, decisively too quick, unmotivated, unscheduled, unorganized, irresponsible and apathetic. The negative of both sides I have, I think.

I have yet to understand this MBTI dichotomy.

 

[Trebuchet]

However most of the time I tend to feel like the clashing of my separate inclinations is debilitating. I doubt myself more than anyone I have ever met and am often ashamed for reasons I either cannot properly articulate or do not wish to clarify.

Actually that sounds like most of the INTPs and INTJs I know. Not everyone will agree with me, but I find the two types very similar and very compatible.

I don't know how old you are, but this kind of doubt and search for greatness seems to go on until one's mid-thirties. I'm not sure exactly what happens then, but there seems to be an increase in confidence and contentment. I've seen it in many people, and when I was in my twenties, I couldn't figure out how those INTx types who were older than me had such poise. Until then, there seems to be a lot of angst and struggling, and personally I would not have done it differently. We develop late and bloom late but that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with us.

Until that time, there is still plenty of joy to be had. It seems like we have trouble focusing on just one thing. Some of that seems to be the sense that there is a potential for greatness. So anything mundane, where you have to start at the beginning, can seem like it will be a sub-optimal use of time. It isn't, though. Anything you learn can end up useful later, and assorted topics can come together in surprising ways. So I recommend you work hard on communication skills (not a comment on your post, just a generally valuable and difficult set of skills), and then enjoy pursuing knowledge and excellence wherever you can find it.

I also feel as if those who find themselves in territory further on either side have the advantage, for being either more certain about what they know or more fearless about what they want.

This makes me smile. I went to college with a lot of INTx's, which is why I have so many of them as friends now, and we all said this. We all felt like we were faking being good at stuff, and any minute someone would call us on it. Everyone else, we thought, was genuinely good at everything, more fearless, more competent, more knowledgeable, but not us. Actually, our fears were completely unfounded, but even knowing that didn't stop any of us from thinking it. It was a shared joke and shared misery.

 

[Fool]

Actually that sounds like most of the INTPs and INTJs I know. Not everyone will agree with me, but I find the two types very similar and very compatible.

I don't know how old you are, but this kind of doubt and search for greatness seems to go on until one's mid-thirties. I'm not sure exactly what happens then, but there seems to be an increase in confidence and contentment. I've seen it in many people, and when I was in my twenties, I couldn't figure out how those INTx types who were older than me had such poise. Until then, there seems to be a lot of angst and struggling, and personally I would not have done it differently. We develop late and bloom late but that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with us.

Until that time, there is still plenty of joy to be had. It seems like we have trouble focusing on just one thing. Some of that seems to be the sense that there is a potential for greatness. So anything mundane, where you have to start at the beginning, can seem like it will be a sub-optimal use of time. It isn't, though. Anything you learn can end up useful later, and assorted topics can come together in surprising ways. So I recommend you work hard on communication skills (not a comment on your post, just a generally valuable and difficult set of skills), and then enjoy pursuing knowledge and excellence wherever you can find it.



This makes me smile. I went to college with a lot of INTx's, which is why I have so many of them as friends now, and we all said this. We all felt like we were faking being good at stuff, and any minute someone would call us on it. Everyone else, we thought, was genuinely good at everything, more fearless, more competent, more knowledgeable, but not us. Actually, our fears were completely unfounded, but even knowing that didn't stop any of us from thinking it. It was a shared joke and shared misery.

Beautiful..*sniff*

 

[LAM]

Thank you OPoster, you saved me the trouble of writing up a thread like this one. You described what I had noticed for some time; I am actually in the middle of j/p. I had returned here to intpforums because I once again was unsure of what MBTI I am. You described me almost perfectly, so now at least i know I am 50% j and p now .

I do not suffer through the weaknesses you have. The thing is that its not a p/j thing. Its a cognitive functions thing. The J for INTJs is not a function onto its own. the j is just indicating that the combination of cognitive functions points to a J type person. A P person has cognitive functions which make him into more likely to act like the P type.

You have to understand this, INTJ's, INTP's and ENTP's are the three "intelligent" types. They are the ones who are 25% higher in a group of their own in most intelligence tests. ENTP and INTP's only difference is Ti and Te. INTJ's is all... Therein, lies the problem, you aren't sharing J and P, you instead have some high INTJ cognitive functions and some high INTP functions.

Summary of my deleted continuation of this post: Take a couple of cognitive functions test and then estimate the order of them and how much of a gap there is between them (you can find some in the quizzes section of this forum.) Then find out about the functions and see exactly what kind of problems might arise from your order of cognitive functions.

 

[Anthile]

You have to understand this, INTJ's, INTP's and ENTP's are the three "intelligent" types. They are the ones who are 25% higher in a group of their own in most intelligence tests. ENTP and INTP's only difference is Ti and Te. INTJ's is all... Therein, lies the problem, you aren't sharing J and P, you instead have some high INTJ cognitive functions and some high INTP functions.

No, not at all. Also, OP is obviously INTP.

 

[LAM]

No, not at all. Also, OP is obviously INTP.

no not at all what?

 

[KazeCraven]

Anthile's probably referring to ENTP vs INTP.

ENTP:
Ne
Ti
Fe
Si

INTP:
Ti
Ne
Si
Fe

Te is a shadow function (I think I'm using the right term.) for both.

Assuming the MBTI is an accurate theory, looking at the entire package of traits would probably help explain which one you are. On the other hand, I'm told that the distribution across individual traits tends to be unimodal (rather than bimodal, as would be expected if type theory were true). This suggests that most people fall in the middle, and thus INTX is pretty normal.

 

[Geminii]

It's never really bugged me. When there are few distractions and drains on my time and resources, I waft along in INTP mode, designing elaborate plans to improve the world and/or my immediate surroundings. I catalyse and build unifying theories for chunks of my life. I try new things with fresh eyes.

When my time begins to have enough blocks of it taken up that there's something of a logjam to be organised, I start blipping INTJ-type flashes to line everything up and get it processed. When such demands are constant, I can be in INTJ mode for most of my waking hours, whipping a laser-focus mental state from one issue to the next in a controlled dance which can rapidly ratchet up to surprising levels of effectiveness. The wheels in my head become smaller, but they spin faster and more of them can share the same active workspace.