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Like the world is ending

Cognisant

Condescending Bastard
Joined
Dec 12, 2009
Messages
7,691
#1
Postmodernism is like the world is ending in slow motion, say we found out a nearby star has gone supernova and the blast wave will wipe us out in about fifty years from now, give or take a few decades, and there's nothing that can be done about it. The point is nothing matters anymore, there's an omnipresent sense of fatalism, nothing's built to last, few companies bother maintaining the integrity of their brands, politicians everywhere are blatantly corrupt, it's like the time of looting and anarchy isn't here yet but we all know it's coming and we're just making the most of civilization while it lasts.

I don't think the world is ending I think it's worse than that, this is the age of reason and in the age of reason everybody need a reasons to justify their values, it's not enough to do the right thing because it's the right thing to do you need to be benefiting from it somehow, earning a profit to justify the time you spend because make no mistake time is money indeed it the currency of currencies the only one everybody has and everybody wants.

The world isn't ending but we are dying, each of our worlds is ending.

Immortality or die trying.
 

higs

My word is my bond.
Joined
Apr 3, 2012
Messages
1,693
Location
Armchair
#2
I'll bite and spout off, most people are sick of it, even the French are moving on and they are in large part the birthplace of postmodernism with Foucault, Derrida and stuff (this is postmodern thought in my language, you kind of seem to be talking about the excesses of capitalism and self interest though, the link between the two is loss of objective meaning and objective morality, which I have regularly observed you struggle with on here in a way :

"No objective morality, people being dumb, blind matter smashing together and natural selection leading to biological robots :D" (consider this a pseudo poetical ode to your thoughts).

I don't think corruption and all that is a new thing, I think we are just more aware of the corruption because information circulates faster and it's harder to hide. Though of course there is proportionally more bullshit to sift through as a consequence (fake newwwws) and so everyone is a bit lost. This is why we need basic epistemology to be taught in schools. Information everywhere so need to shift education system to focus on being taught how to reason instead of assimilating facts that are all a click away anyway.

People love meaning, it will swing round. Morality is real because pain is real. I think the nihilism is disillusionment, the aporia can be precursor to construction. Personally I am excited to see what's going to happen, and obviously hoping it won't be tragic. Creation, stabilization destruction. RITE ?

Climate crisis worries me.

Is anything I am saying pertinent ? I'm just sort of rambling. Let us chat.
 

kantor1003

Prolific Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2009
Messages
1,573
Location
Norway
#3
And yet another one answered: «It’s like we read that our body is the grave of our souls. Five years, five grains of sand. On we march, and if we only see past image after image of everyday, we can see our selves leaving, pieces at a time, traces of skin, beauty, hope, dream and love behind until we are stripped down to our very bones.
Pertinent?

Oh, sorry.
But come on, there must be some collective crazed ritual that could be done in place of ‘anarchy’ and pillaging. What does it really hjelp, in sheer spite, to grab some stuffs? You want to squeeze it real hard, like the impression would last, and throw it back on the ground?»
 

Cognisant

Condescending Bastard
Joined
Dec 12, 2009
Messages
7,691
#4
Mortality is the problem.

What's to stop you raping and pillaging in a groundhog day scenario?
Nothing, it doesn't matter, you have no future, it's not simply the absence of consequences but rather the absence of a future to live for which robs you of your values.

What if the average lifespan was 10,000 years, just imagine it.
Wouldn't integrity be so much more important?
Wouldn't making the world a better place be so much more important?
Would you build your home from wood or stone?
 
Joined
Oct 17, 2014
Messages
369
Location
in orbit of a friendly star <3
#5
Mortality is the problem.

What's to stop you raping and pillaging in a groundhog day scenario?
Nothing, it doesn't matter, you have no future, it's not simply the absence of consequences but rather the absence of a future to live for which robs you of your values.
Your implicit assumption here is that the only actions that could matter to a person are those they personally live to experience the causal result of. This assumption is a personal value. People who hold this value would perceive mortality as "robbing them of their values". This has more to do with materialism than the age of reason. (It is the unreasonable people during the age of reason who make materialism popular)
 

kantor1003

Prolific Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2009
Messages
1,573
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Norway
#6
What if the average lifespan was 10,000 years, just imagine it.
Wouldn't integrity be so much more important?
Wouldn't making the world a better place be so much more important?
Would you build your home from wood or stone?
I like your thought experiment. Can you answer why striving to be good and to do good would be so much more important, and I admit that it is near impossible to imagine, if we live 10,000 years instead of a hundred?

This reminds me of another thought experiment, I don't remember in what context, where we double the size of the universe and everything in it. It seems like that in such a case nothing really changes. That we would experience things as we do now. Doubling the size of the universe somehow seems similar to increasing our lifespans two or three times. What I mean is that you already seem to carry the assumption that doing good is important, and I don't see how it follows that it's any less important because we live to be a hundred instead of 10,000.

I would rather want to say, though of course I know that from such reasoning (if we can even call it that) I couldn't say that it was, that it's even more important because our lives are so quickly extinguished. Since Christmas is coming, let us use that as an example. /Intuition pump warning, though what is wrong about them?/ If this is your last Christmas (or make it 40 if you will), wouldn't it be even more important to make it good than if it was your penultimate Christmas (or make it 10,000 if you will)?
 

kantor1003

Prolific Member
Joined
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Messages
1,573
Location
Norway
#7
Your implicit assumption here is that the only actions that could matter to a person are those they personally live to experience the causal result of. This assumption is a personal value. People who hold this value would perceive mortality as "robbing them of their values". This has more to do with materialism than the age of reason. (It is the unreasonable people during the age of reason who make materialism popular)
/Edit: I'll let the following stand, but the use of the term made more sense when rereading in context of the OP, though it's still misleading to call this an age of reason. And reason is only with great difficulty, if at all, compatible with post-modernism (is it not?), which is probably exactly the kind of dissonance given expression in the OP/

There might be somewhat confusion of terms going on here?
For example what do you mean by the age of reason? Because it makes me think of the 17th and 18th century and rationalist systems like those of Leibniz and Kant when that is perhaps not what you mean to refer to? And if that is what you mean, then that kind of thinking doesn't necessarily stand in opposition to materialism(?), though I would say that it of course does that as well as I believe all sound thinking does (:P), but to empiricism. As you know, the belief that everything we know (or come to know), we know (or come to know), by experience. Which isn't quite true.
If you believe we are in an age of reason now, I would be tempted to say, or to remind you that the age of enlightenment is long gone. I don't know what age we are in now. Some kind of dwindling post-modernism, making way for who knows what this is. If we see the history of ideas, the systems of thought that have brought us here, as one giant cathedral, what seems to be happening is increasing fragmentation. And that doesn't seem to be something like what reason (you know, the builder of systems) ordinarily does, or have done, unless it has become some sort of snake eating it's own tail.
 

Cognisant

Condescending Bastard
Joined
Dec 12, 2009
Messages
7,691
#9
I like your thought experiment. Can you answer why striving to be good and to do good would be so much more important, and I admit that it is near impossible to imagine, if we live 10,000 years instead of a hundred?
It's not that is inherently more important and Teax is right it is a matter of personal values but I'm speaking in general, on a societal level, take global warming for instance as a society we're concerned about it but not really as concerned about it as we ought to be, a lot of people just don't care because as far as they're concerned it doesn't affect them.

The consensus seems to be we ought to do something about it, and there are groups of people championing the cause, but the majority of people are apathetic, after all why care about something that's only going to happen after you're long dead? Whereas if people lived for thousands of years they'd have a different perspective, suddenly a couple hundred years from now would be as relevant as a couple of years from now is relevant to us.
 
Joined
Jun 9, 2012
Messages
151
#10
The core anxiety seems to be: if something doesn't last forever, it doesn't matter; the fear of death / annihilation / non-existence.

You argue that if people didn't die, they'd care more, and would live more meaningfully. But you know what I would do if I lived forever? Not a god damned thing! I'll always have tomorrow.

The only reason I do anything at all is the ticking clock, the breath of death on my neck. I would not do great things if I had more time. I would not be more kind to my neighbors, or care more about this Earth if I had to live with my actions longer.

It's like the world is ending, because it does, but that's not a problem. When you're alive you're not dead. And when you're dead, you're not going to care that you're not alive! Death is not a reality for you, non-existence does not exist.

It's you. It's the individual. It's the individual's attitude and approach to an absurd and temporary existence that make it what it is. You project, outward, the world you live in.

If the rules of this life and the world were different, there would be complaint and frustration just the same.

And how spoiled. What conceit. That you need your nonsense to have permanence and ultimate consequence to find contentment in it.
 
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Cognisant

Condescending Bastard
Joined
Dec 12, 2009
Messages
7,691
#11
Sour grapes, you see immortality as something impossible so you tell yourself it's something you don't want, are you suicidally depressed? Because if not you're kidding yourself.

RadicalDreamer31 said:
You argue that if people didn't die, they'd care more, and would live more meaningfully. But you know what I would do if I lived forever? Not a god damned thing! I'll always have tomorrow.
I'm glad you understood me, now as for seeing things my way well that's just a matter of time and perspective, if you're happy then there's no reason to change your lifestyle indeed I must commend you for your inner peace and humility. However if your house was on fire you'd do something about that wouldn't you, I think it's safe to assume you wouldn't just sit there and let the flames consume you, you're not suicidally depressed after all.

But does your self interest end there? Of course not you've got years, centuries, millennia ahead of you and that tends to broaden one's horizons, if someone's dumping trash in your neighborhood how long will you just ignore that? If a corrupt politician is running your town's economy into the ground is that never going to affect you, if global warming will eventually make living on Earth difficult/uncomfortable are you just going to watch it happen?

It may take a few centuries but eventually you'll see things my way.

And how spoiled. What conceit. That you need your nonsense to have permanence and ultimate consequence to find contentment in it.
Yup.
 
Joined
Jun 9, 2012
Messages
151
#12
Let's define immortality. If someone offered me some fountain of youth juice that extended my life by 10,000 years. Hell's to the yes, that'd be mad bomb. If instead my lucidity and ego were forced to persist for a literal infinite amount of time, that would be a horror of the grandest scale. Come on? Really? An eternity? No. Good Lord, no. We're human, our minds are not arranged to endure such a thing. For a person (an ego) to face an eternity they'd have to completely reconfigure their consciousness, effectively killing their former self.

So (hopefully), the immortality we're talking about, is essentially an extended lease. This flavor: https://imgur.com/gallery/HjF2P.

That kind of immortality is totally possible, and sign me up! However, death remains the ultimate fate. Absolute annihilation, one day. An extension on life does not changed my feelings towards it.


There is nothing wrong with the world (all things that exist). Nothing at all. The world is not for any reason, and it does not do anything. It just is. Usefulness, purpose, outcome. These are human concepts, not attributes of our world. Value, truth, passion, compassion, justice, beauty. These are human concepts, not attributes of our world.

Our world has a boundary. Spacetime. Nothing can exist before, or after, or outside.

We're here, and here is going to end. All things fade, and are forgotten. All information, gone. It didn't even happen. And nothing will change that.

It's up to each one of us, to deal with that. This is your postmodern attitude. Like the world is ending, because it does. Accept and find peace / Revolt and fight for every last breath / believe the comforting lies about inherent significance in life. Doesn't matter, all actions are equivalent in their non-value.


Now you don't have to believe that. What evidence do I have to make such a board claim about the nature of things?

The world is very much a mystery. Without being able to prove or disprove or assign probability to any model of reality, they are all equal. It's a canvas. This is free will.

Free will is not that a person can do whatever they want without limitation, as people are limited by the capacity of their mind and by the natural laws.

What free will is, is that the world offers no clues as to what the "proper" course of action and perception is. Our path, our reality, is of our own making in that way.

If you despair at your fate. That's you doing that, that's who you are, that's what you want. You want to use death as a scapegoat, you use it as a punching bag for your misplaced frustration. You're not upset at death. You're upset that you find no value or purpose in your life and you blame death. You blame death for the fact that you can't seem to care enough to do anything about injustice, or an unfavorable future, or that you don't have the balls to face a challenge that will destroy you.

But if you find significance in your actions, there will be, you have the freedom to create and assign it. It exists in you doesn't it? So it's real. The whole universe exists in you. Everything you know, everything you've experienced or will every experience is a product of your mind. You have influence in this domain.

You have free will. You can paint a better reality. Cultivate a world of you ideals. Death is not an obstacle. You are.

It just you. Your choices. Your beliefs.

But this is very difficult, because you have to purge yourself of the infectious thoughts that plague you. You have to craft your assumptions about reality (and they are that) into ones that serve you.

Don't fear death. Embrace life, in all it's horrors and wonders. I wish I could take my own advice.
 
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