judgment and perception might as well be named reverse

[Brontosaurie]

thinking is a perception in the abstract. it is far-reaching and generalistic. it seeks to extrapolate and derive universal statements, laws of nature. it eradicates contradictions. feeling is a perception of immediacy. it operates in proximity and pertains to specific objects. it seeks to understand complex problems arising from the multiple facets and dimensions of what is demonstrably existing. it accepts contradictions, it juggles them.

intuition is decision-making from cognitive economy, i.e. laziness. sensing is decision-making from induction, i.e. safety and reliability concerns.

do you agree?

 

[Analyzer]

So this would mean IP's and EJ's are dominant perceivers, while EP's and IJ's are dominant judgers.

 

[Brontosaurie]

So this would mean IP's and EJ's are dominant perceivers, while EP's and IJ's are dominant judgers.

yes

 

[Architect]

thinking is a perception in the abstract.

Don't agree with this. Thinking is problem solving, not perception, or going from A to B to C. Ti is a more fluid form of that than Te.

it is far-reaching and generalistic. it seeks to extrapolate and derive universal statements, laws of nature. ...

When combined with Ne. Ti dominant ISTP's don't generalize and look to far reaching solutions like INTP's do. Seems like you're looking through the lens of an INTP here.

 

[Cherry Cola]

sensors are lazy with their minds, they follow the rule of least resistance when it comes to thinking, same shit with intuitives when it comes to action

intuition is not cognitively economical, quite the opposite, it is cognitively expenditious in order that it might come up with schemata to lessen the need to expend energy doing sensorous stuff and vice versa

 

[Brontosaurie]

sensors are lazy with their minds, they follow the rule of least resistance when it comes to thinking, same shit with intuitives when it comes to action

intuition is not cognitively economical, quite the opposite, it is cognitively expenditious in order that it might come up with schemata to lessen the need to expend energy doing sensorous stuff and vice versa

from the perspective of actual decision-making it makes sense to call intuition lazy because it introspects to make better overall grasp so fewer actions are required.

it's not lazier in the sense of energy used. it's just used for other things.

i must insist that intuition is cognitively economical, because it takes leaps in data while sensing needs continuity in the data itself. this then allows more cognition to focus on other things which then are actually by-products of the low cognitive load of intuitive decision-making, but which we have come to associate most strongly with intuition.

 

[Cherry Cola]

the ability to leap is a consequence of prior expenditures however

 

[Black Rose]

S shortcuts are learned brute force experiment linear a to b in the present
N shortcuts are parallel by concepts that is time invariant

My brother is ISTP, he plays games and makes things with his hands but seem uninterested in philosophy but is into mythology(dragons). he is good at knowing what items can do.

I am interested knowing the best set up by planning what combinations could produce an outcome. i don't test all combinations, i gather data and infer trends and situations.

he is faster but i am make better long term decisions.
immediate consequences are seen in the light of past events, mistakes don't happen twice.
i can reason my way in and out of my environment with self inhibition i don't need to react immediately if stuck.

To Ti the steps are more N than S because the steps are extrapolated first
To Te the steps come from testing externally so more S than N but then expanded through combination.

Ti-Ne
Te-Ni

these are more like N but Ti evaluates the rules to know if they have further consequences if a rule is a good rule. Te builds a library of rules where each rule can give Ni type confirmation. Ne confirmation is more extensive so Ti evaluates more Ne realizations it sees in the environment but Ni confirms more Te rules by testing them with Se incrementally. Si in INTPs throughs away most of Ne through Ti. Se gives Ni more confirmed rules.

So INTJ know what definitely does work and INTP know what definitely does not work in their domains. (this is a summery more is needed to know what happens for both findings corresponding to negative and positive search)

 

[EyeSeeCold]

Words can have different meanings and ideas can have multiple perspectives, I give you that.


But how would this reversal benefit the understanding and/or application of typology? Is there more insight to be had compared to the current viewpoint?

plis explane

 

[Brontosaurie]

Words can have different meanings and ideas can have multiple perspectives, I give you that.


But how would this reversal benefit the understanding and/or application of typology? Is there more insight to be had compared to the current viewpoint?

plis explane

it's not a complement or an improvement. it just goes to show that the perception vs judging concept is a weak spot and a redundance in typology. personally i accept the jungian oppositions/dichotomies and the associated qualities as real and crucial aspects of psychology, but think that dividing them into perception and judgment is misleading and impeding. they all represent different intrapsychic conflicts. they are different modes of the same thing, not different things.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

it's not a complement or an improvement. it just goes to show that the perception vs judging concept is a weak spot and a redundance in typology. personally i accept the jungian oppositions/dichotomies and the associated qualities as real and crucial aspects of psychology, but think that dividing them into perception and judgment is misleading and impeding. they all represent different intrapsychic conflicts. they are different modes of the same thing, not different things.

But your short trip around the j/p functions wasn't really convincing of a weak spot. I mean you can abstract many things to such degrees of relativity, it doesn't necessarily make the accepted mode any less significant.

In spite of that, yes I agree overall that the j/p dimensions could be dropped and then types could be viewed from an 8-function model of information processing, where the dominant function sees/encodes a type's reality according to the nature of the function. This leads to questions such as "what is Ti or Ni information?" and "how does a Ti or Ni type perceive reality compared to Fe and Se"?.

 

[Ex-User (11125)]

i must insist that intuition is cognitively economical, because it takes leaps in data while sensing needs continuity in the data itself. this then allows more cognition to focus on other things which then are actually by-products of the low cognitive load of intuitive decision-making, but which we have come to associate most strongly with intuition.

when you say cognitively economical, which i understand to mean that intuition is derived from implicit knowledge+parallels and patterns drawn in the mind, do you suppose its more Instantaneous quality when it come to decision making means it has more to do with feeling?

 

[Cherry Cola]

Well intuition is cognitively efficient, but still expenditious; intuitives still spend more energy on organizing thought and modeling than do sensors, despite the fact that they are able to do so more effectively. I think I might just've misinterpreted what ya meant with economical :P

 

[TheManBeyond]

I'm not good at organizing my ideas, at all, it is like they flood and drown me, i spend a lot of energy at building something out of them, i'm constantly told that i need to become better at compressing everything into a whole -------> straight. How do you measure your effiency against sensor's?

 

[Brontosaurie]

Well intuition is cognitively efficient, but still expenditious; intuitives still spend more energy on organizing thought and modeling than do sensors, despite the fact that they are able to do so more effectively. I think I might just've misinterpreted what ya meant with economical :P

yeah but spend time building models to make decisions less expenditious

 

[scorpiomover]

thinking is a perception in the abstract. it is far-reaching and generalistic. it seeks to extrapolate and derive universal statements, laws of nature. it eradicates contradictions. feeling is a perception of immediacy. it operates in proximity and pertains to specific objects. it seeks to understand complex problems arising from the multiple facets and dimensions of what is demonstrably existing. it accepts contradictions, it juggles them.

intuition is decision-making from cognitive economy, i.e. laziness. sensing is decision-making from induction, i.e. safety and reliability concerns.

do you agree?

Thinking, particularly Ti, is normally considered to be a form of logic, which is exemplified by "if A then B", i.e. that, given the current situation, one can draw consequences from it. Some of those consequences are more desirable than others, which necessitates decisions.

Intuition gives one a general insight into the entire structure, meaning and purpose of the overall situation, which then gives one a mental map with which to navigate the situation successfully. It HELPS. But it doesn't force you to face facts over which option is the best choice. So it doesn't force you to make decisions. It only helps.

 

[stephenpj]

Blah,blah,blah I don't find this interesting!


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[Brontosaurie]

Blah,blah,blah I don't find this interesting!


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it's not my fault it's blablabla, ungrateful shmuck

 

[stephenpj]

I was just saying what I wanted too. There's no blame involved. x


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[stephenpj]

I'm sorry. Brontosaurie. x


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[StevenM]

I remember reading that when it comes to 'introverts', they really seem backwards like that.

IxxP's are actually dominant judgers, but to an outsider, they seem like strong perceivers.
IxxJ's are actually dominant perceivers, but to an outsider, they seem like strong judgers.

When it comes to extroverts, their dominant function shines out to others more clearly.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

I remember reading that when it comes to 'introverts', they really seem backwards like that.

IxxP's are actually dominant judgers, but to an outsider, they seem like strong perceivers.
IxxJ's are actually dominant perceivers, but to an outsider, they seem like strong judgers.

When it comes to extroverts, their dominant function shines out to others more clearly.

Imo that just means the popular conception of j/p is limited for some reason.

There's two types of perceiving and two types of judging, even Extraverted Perceivers have a type of judging that you can easily detect once you know what to look for (e.g. high adaptability but ultimately do what they want(i.e. flakes)).

 

[Brontosaurie]

I'm sorry. Brontosaurie. x


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no you can never be forgiven because i refuse to acknowledge any problem although i am clearly deeply hurt

haha

 

[stephenpj]

x


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[TheManBeyond]

learning C#

Spoiler

using System;
using System.Collections.Generic;
using System.Linq;
using System.Text;
using System.Threading.Tasks;

namespace ConsoleApplication2
{
class Program
{
static void Main(string[] args)
{
int number1, number2;

Console.WriteLine("Please enter a number:");
number1 = int.Parse(Console.ReadLine());

Console.WriteLine("Please enter another number:");
number2 = int.Parse(Console.ReadLine());

Console.WriteLine("The result is:" + " " + (number1 + number2));
Console.ReadLine();

}
}
}