Judging vs. Perceiving

[Decaf]

I was reading one of Dario Nardi's books at lunch today and I came across a comparison that struck pretty true for me. I might have to start using it but I wanted to make sure it wasn't just a personal association.

Judging is to Mainstream as Perceiving is to Counter-Culture

I was never Goth or Emo, but I definately consider myself a bit counter-culture. Libertarian, Unitarian, general despisement of the current governmental system. I even get pissed off that Geologists still have common names for all the rocks instead of standardizing into a system that makes it easy to use like Chemistry did.

So what all you P's think? Are you counter-culture?

 

[Wisp]

I think it's a combination. I know an INTJ that can be quite counter, though not so much anymore.

I would think it's more of a S/N thing, but it's also J/P, I think.

Being open, versus being focused on detail, many S's will never zoom out enough to see the big picture, and see the flaws. I think NPs will do it the most, SJ's being the "Guardians" Who will sacrifice themselves to uphold the "right way" to do things.

 

[Agent Intellect]

it may or may not be a P thing (i'm not the expert) but i'd definitely consider myself to be quite "counter culture". i've always had an almost automatic aversion to anything thats supposed to be "in" or "cool", always questioning why something was supposed to be so great. i've always hated the most popular music, and i've always been skeptical of popular movies. i'm just such a skeptical, questioning person, i guess i've always just naturally been drawn away from whats mainstream or popular.

 

[fullerene]

I think they're more "levels" of cultural acceptance. E is more culturally acceptable than I, S is more culturally acceptable than N, and J is more acceptable than P. I'm not sure about T/F... I'd imagine they're about even.

I have an ISTP friend who fits in fine with the culture, although his ideas about it mirror an INTPs pretty well after his senses (experience) have taken in the information he needs. I also have an INTJ friend who's... weird. He doesn't fit in socially very well, but his willpower and method of living life, basically his strengths, are much more acceptable to the culture than ours are. He looks like he's in a constant state of struggle though--he's happy if other people idolize his talents, but gets upset if they don't... he wants to fit in more than a "free-spirited" P would.

If I had to put it as concisely as possible, the ISTPs values are counter-culture, but he plays the game to fit in and sense things (ISTPs share dominant Ti with us)... the INTJ lacks the ability to fit into the culture, but his values are right in step with them.

 

[Kuu]

it may or may not be a P thing (i'm not the expert) but i'd definitely consider myself to be quite "counter culture". i've always had an almost automatic aversion to anything thats supposed to be "in" or "cool", always questioning why something was supposed to be so great. i've always hated the most popular music, and i've always been skeptical of popular movies. i'm just such a skeptical, questioning person, i guess i've always just naturally been drawn away from whats mainstream or popular.

Seconded.

 

[Wisp]

That it may or may not be a P thing, or that you too are counter-culture?

 

[IfloatTHRUlife]

I am not to sure about this, there are too many possibilities. The personality controls someones perspective, but might not have so much impact in values someone has. Me an INTP and my brother an INTJ both have similar thoughts about most things, the main difference i see is he has more of a plan then i do about life, i tend to sit back and acknowledge life(although i do want to live a decent life). He tends to have a bunch of interests that he intends to pursue while i will look into the things he mentions and always think of some reason this is unimportant to me until i actually experience it. If i like it i will look further. He does tend to be more social then me but thats just because he has more interests than me that have introduced him to a wider variety of friends.There is the obvious difference that he judges people far more than me. For instance he tells me i am dumb and that i am not ambitious since i don't have very many interests i follow through with. I don't consider him stupid other than the fact he calls me stupid..

 

[Wisp]

Well, seing as the INTJ is probably our closest MBTI relation, and he grew up in (probably) the same circumstances as you, chances are you'd see eye to eye on a lot of issues. The main difference between INTP and INTJ is that INTP have Ti, and INTJ have Ni, which makes them have great ideas, but lose so much of the INTP metacognitive process, as their judging function (T) is focused outwards, and ours is focused inwards.

 

[Ermine]

I've found that while most Ns are counter culture to an extent, NPs are more open in general, therefore more likely to be counter culture.

 

[Wisp]

WHich is what I said. And, as I've said, SJs are hard-asses. Mainstream in every sense of the word.

 

[Aphasia]

It's no fun being me and my mental dichotomy. Let's just say I've got a love-hate relationship with all people in general. (Yes, all)

 

[zxc]

Definitely counter-culture, and libertarian, with some anarchistic sentiment, and I despise governments (all of them!)

Used to think it was a P thing, then I thought it was an N thing, now I think it's a bit of both.

 

[Chimerical]

I was reading one of Dario Nardi's books at lunch today and I came across a comparison that struck pretty true for me. I might have to start using it but I wanted to make sure it wasn't just a personal association.

Judging is to Mainstream as Perceiving is to Counter-Culture

I was never Goth or Emo, but I definately consider myself a bit counter-culture. Libertarian, Unitarian, general despisement of the current governmental system. I even get pissed off that Geologists still have common names for all the rocks instead of standardizing into a system that makes it easy to use like Chemistry did.

So what all you P's think? Are you counter-culture?

.................
INTJ's don't fit in.
INTP's fit in more so than the INTJ.

Hmm.... . o O ( my older brother is an INTP, and so is my little brother. They fit in with the main stream cultures. They have friends. I don't have friends, I have toys and books, and other things.).

My INTP older brother is overly concerned with his appearance, I don't give a fuck.

Either way I think it's idiocy to talk about one being better than the other.
btw, ESFP's are pretty cool. I don't share the same views as them, not at all, but I think they're fine the way they think and view the world.

 

[IfloatTHRUlife]

@chimerical- I don't agree, my brother is an INTJ and has an amazingly large amount of friends..while i (an INTP) have only about 3 close friends... one is my brother. lol. Also i dont even think your brothers are INTPs if they fit in all to well. (there are possibilities of INTPs being this way but it contridicts my own view and the views ive read of many other INTPs) Also my brother is far more concerned about his appearance than me, my mother always says he is rather "girly" about wanting to look nice. One possibility i see is that maybe your brothers are INTJs and your an INTP. Have you done any research to decide if you had the right type, or did you just take the test?

 

[Decaf]

I'm not saying its the case, but a lot of INTPs misunderstand themselves as INTJs because of the problem of understanding what the J and P stand for. They represent which function you extravert. An INTJ extraverts Thinking because thinking is the Judging function. An INTP extraverts Intuition because intuition is the perceiving function. But if you look carefully you'll notice that the dominant function of INTPs is judging and the reverse for INTJs.

Introverted judging (j) by its nature is relatively unconcerned about external decisions (like how they want to come across to others). They can still develop an interest in that area, but they tend to be minimalistic, and lack the motivation to put a lot of continuous effort into that area. Many are offended by the demands put on them to do it.

Extraverted judging (J) is obviously the opposite. That's not to say that they are overly concerned with how they appear. Remember, when a function is the dominant or auxiliary of a personality, it tends to reach a level of maturity that other types don't experience. They will likely be more concerned with how they come across to others and put effort into conveying what they wish to (even if it isn't a positive message).

INTJs don't always experience the J extensively because its only their auxiliary function. INTPs tend to experience the j paragraph more severely than most.

 

[IfloatTHRUlife]

Well put Decaf, i had a conversation with my brother just a couple nights ago in which we talked about the cognitive functions. One quick thing i want to mention, the percieving function for an INTJ is introverted intuition, wouldn't that also cause an INTJ to be more concerned about what people think of them, compared to an INTPs percieving being extraverted?