iNtuition as a Decision-making Process

[Wolfpine]

In classical typology, T and F are the "judging" functions. They discern how and why we make decisions, whereas N and S are simply the ways in which we perceive information.

As far as I can tell, though, I make my decisions based on my iNtuition rather than Ti. When ordering food, I mentally simulate the "vibe" of the food and choose based on that. When deciding whether to go outside, whether to write, whether to talk to someone - I find myself relying more on my presupposed impression of the action than on any discernible rationality.

This isn't F, as it has nothing to do with emotion. I do also use Ti very frequently, when talking with others, figuring through problems, rationalizing my mistakes... you know, the usual. But when it comes to things that "make no real difference", the source of my decision seems ultimately to be iNtuition. It's like I just turn on a "sixth sense" which informs me of the best course of action.

So, can iNtuition be used to make decisions? It's the best explanation I can think of for this process. Do you guys have similar experiences/tendencies?

-Wolfpine

 

[EyeSeeCold]

That's not how it works.

 

[Wolfpine]

That's not how it works.

Care to elaborate? You're right, if you mean that it isn't how Ne works. It's more like Ni, in my case, for some reason.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

Someone has woken up.

I don't feel like getting into the whole "MBTI is flawed" thing again so I'll just say yes that is Ni. But you're still INTP. If you care to find out more just read Jung's Psychological Types. Specifically, read the Introverted Intuitive type and the Introverted Thinking type.

Btw, I meant perception functions don't make decisions, they just influence them.

 

[Auburn]

Hm.. is decision making necessary to take action?

Though the judging functions are used to analyze external/internal data and thus make choices from which to best act, all eight functions are capable of compelling us toward action. The judging functions compel us to act based on convictions of rationality/values, while perceptive functions are capable of compelling us to act more fluidly based on impressions - - flowing with the stream of present/past experience.

Per example:

Se (Extroverted Sensing):

Sensual Experience: Se is experiencing the immediate context, and accumulating experiences. Se occurs when we become aware of what is in the general world in rich detail. Se types have a zest for living life to the fullest by way of multiplying experiences. Always on the alert for what needs immediate attention or what might provide a bit of action, excitement or entertainment, they engage quickly with their environment. Se types are attuned to the environment and the myriad of colors, textures, sounds, beauty and the sensuousness of it all. Their attention will always go towards whatever provides the keenest impression on their senses. With Se, data is accepted without discrimination and is only later subjected to sorting and selection through their introverted judgment functions. This, in conjunction with the immediacy of their perceptual process, may underlie their natural affinity for sensual and aesthetic experience.

Active Energy: Se is taking action in the physical world; it is operating when we freely follow exciting physical impulses or instincts as they come up and enjoy the thrill of action in the present moment. A oneness with the physical world and a total absorption may exist as we move, touch, and sense what is around us. The process involves instantly reading cues to see how far we can go in a situation and still get the impact we want or respond to the situation with presence. Se types often have an uncanny ability to respond appropriately in cases of an emergency, often having excellent reflexes, and they can act without thinking. Se comes into play when events are changing so rapidly that linear analysis is impossible. They respond immediately, on the basis of visual and tactile information, guided by what they done before.
- Source

Se dominant user, and other perceptive dominants, will be able to bypass "conscious" (T/F) decision making and decide what actions to take from whichever way the flow of data compels hir to flow at that moment. I think the way you describe how your food selection is done by "vibes" is very much riding on the waves of perceptive impulse.

but I could be wrong..
(welcome to the forum btw!)

 

[Adymus]

I'm going to break my silent streak for this one question.

When studying MBTI you need to be aware that there is a difference between the commonly used and accepted definitions of certain MBTI terms, and the phenomenon MBTI is actually referring to. The most used example is that of Introvert and extrovert, and how they are commonly used to refer to people who are quite verse talk a lot respectively, but in MBTI this would be an extremely inaccurate definition. Well there is also a difference between the "intuition" that is referenced in common language, verses the concept of the phenomenon that Jung chose to name "Intuition".

The kind of "intuition" you are referring to, is actually the product of a Feeling based decision making process, and in your case sounds like Fe. Do not take Feeling functions so literally as to mean when they are being used, you are going to literally be angry or happy, or sad, or filled with some kind of intense emotional passion. A Feeling function simply means it is a decision making process that is based on values, or human dynamics. The nature of Feeling functions however don't always have to be in the context of humans to be able to function. You can assess a situation, and you from that your feeling functions will give some kind of vibe, and that vibe will make you feel that something is favorable or unfavorable, for reasons that may seem kind of amorphous and hard to explain. Either way, this is not actually MBTI Intuition, a decision is being made based on information that has already been received, this is a Judgment.

Whether you realize or not, this is most certainly an emotional process, you are making a decision because the situation evoked a certain emotional reaction that made you respond in the way that you did.

When there is no logical criteria to go off of, or if we don't have time to gather the necessary information required for a sound decision, we will often switch to our Fe or Fi to make a decision based just on its vibe or on Gut reaction. Some people call it just going with your gut, and others commonly refer to as "Woman's intuition." The point is, it's not actually MBTI Intuition, it is feeling.

 

[SkyWalker]

As far as I can tell, though, I make my decisions based on my iNtuition rather than Ti. When ordering food, I mentally simulate the "vibe" of the food and choose based on that. When deciding whether to go outside, whether to write, whether to talk to someone - I find myself relying more on my presupposed impression of the action than on any discernible rationality.

My theory is that Ne comes up with a tree of 10000000 actions/options (e.g. all posibilities, and sub-possiblities of those) for you to do. It is your Ti which then tries to make sense out of why you would do them. Ti is constantly thinking why it would be logical to do so. Ti cannot generate actions, only Ne (or Se) can provide them for Ti. So in other words Ti rationally judges on it using logic, but the idea orignally came irrationally from Ne.

 

[SkyWalker]

The kind of "intuition" you are referring to, is actually the product of a Feeling based decision making process, and in your case sounds like Fe.

I dont think so, he is picking out food for himself only, other humans are not involved.

Other humans need to be involved for Feeling.

he is talking about an irrational process of picking out food, it is a perception thing. (judging functions like thinking and feeling are rational).

 

[Auburn]

perhaps this could help..?

 

[EyeSeeCold]

^ Nice link. I agree with the semantics.

It's troublesome sometimes to not be able to remember things exactly step by step and it makes me feel inadequate.

 

[flow]

Whether you realize or not, this is most certainly an emotional process, you are making a decision because the situation evoked a certain emotional reaction that made you respond in the way that you did.

I'm going to break my silence on this thread by saying that this feels incredibly false in regards to picking out a lunch item. It's not an emotional decision for the average INTP. Perhaps it would be for an INFJ... idk MBTI and its interpretations are rarely black and white.

In regards to that link, I found this bit interesting:

The Introverted Sensation in Action

The Introverted Sensation function can be explained more clearly with a scenario, such as making a particular sandwich. This sandwich is composed of mustard, mayo, lettuce, tomato, swiss, and ham.

Let’s say we have an Si user who is standing in the kitchen with the recipe and ingredients for this sandwich at a table. This will be the first time the Si user will ever make a sandwich or even seen a sandwich and thus his mind’s slate is clean. The Si user will read through the recipe and attempt to follow the instructions one by one to construct this sandwhich.

First, it tells him to use mustard and mayo on one side of each bread slices. Then it tells him to place lettuce, tomato, swiss, and finally ham in that exact order on top of one slice of bread with the condiment side facing upward. Lastly, it tells him to top it off with the second bread slice with the condiment side facing downward. He finishes.

Now he is to make a second sandwich without the help of the recipe. The Si user’s memory is poor, unfortunately, so he can’t remember the recipe from heart, HOWEVER, he can “feel” out the sensation as he makes it. The Si user will have a sensation that tells him, wasn’t it the bread slice first that needs to be covered with mustard and mayo? He does not need to even say this. His gut feeling will tell him that probably is the first correct approach. His gut feeling will also tell him it was probably lettuce and tomato next in that order. Now he is almost finished but he is stuck. He can’t remember the next step. He tries to put ham on, but wait!

A sudden shock in his system.

“This doesn’t feel right,” the Si user says. He decides to try another item and places the swiss on top instead. Suddenly, his body tells him “This feels right,” and finally proceeds to place the ham on the sandwich. So far, it all feels “correct”. The Si user then continues to finish the sandwich with the final bread slice.

So the Si-user I used in this example has terrible memory. He cannot remember the recipe step by step, what items go in what order, how to start, or how to finish, at least in a differentiated manner. His body, however, remembers the sensation because he did it before. The first time he makes a sandwich was his development of an internalized sensation blueprint and so the next time he makes a sandwich, he has this internal sensation to utilize as a guide.

but doesn't that sound like Muscle Memory?? Why didn't they say MUSCLE MEMORY!?

 

[EyeSeeCold]

It's more like being in tune with the concrete linear dynamics of situations. Whereas Ni would be nonlinear and abstract. I'm not sure if you can say muscle memory, but it is some memory in the sense that things "feel right".

 

[Auburn]

@ flow - Hmm, muscle memory, from what I understand, is more about reciting specific body movements - so for instance a martial artist will develop a lot of muscle memory and then be able to spar at high speeds with little thought and simply a lot of impulsive reaction.

The body simply moves on it's own without much thought. Actually this even applies to video games I suppose, in the way we use the controller automatically - - or in typing.

However, in the article the body has nothing to do with it. The Si user isn't reciting arm gestures to make the sandwich, but rather using a conscious thinking process combined with vibes/hunches.

I do agree with you though that I don't think it's Fe. The way I see it (I could be wrong) I still think the OP is riding on the waves of perceptive impulse, likely Si in Wolfpine's case.

It's not so much that s/he's making a rational decision as much as just flowing with the resonance felt, leading hir to take action but not via the rational/values based channels (J) necessarily.

Judging functions are reasoning functions, but the vibes it uses to calibrate that reasoning come from the perceptive functions, so not Fe but rather Ne/Si in this case.

An Fe+Ni combination, for instance, would pick up it's vibes from Ni. It would use it's perceptive function to read the situation, then it's reasoning function to decide how to act on that. The vibes are picked up by the perceptive functions, then deconstructed/dissected/organized by the reasoning functions. Though both work very closely so it's hard to distinguish which does what at times...

I have no idea what I'm saying...

 

[EyeSeeCold]

I have no idea what I'm saying...

lol

I think we deviated too far from the OP.

OP says that when he chooses to do things, he recreates the experience of them and then decides upon which is most appealing. Without typology this sounds like memory+opinions. With typology you can argue introverted intuition(as per Jung) for having the archetypes of the situations in which the occurrences will take place coupled with an emotional attachment (introverted feeling as per Jung). We can get our nickers in a bunch over arguing semantics, but MBTI or not, Jungian Ni and Fi seem to fit OP's description the best.

 

[Adymus]

I dont think so, he is picking out food for himself only, other humans are not involved.

Other humans need to be involved for Feeling.

he is talking about an irrational process of picking out food, it is a perception thing. (judging functions like thinking and feeling are rational).

Okay, this right here is a perfect example of what I mean by taking descriptions of function you read online way too literally. Before anything else, Fe is above all an executive decision making function. When ever we take directive action, even as something as insignificant as ordering food at a drive-thru, we are going to be using either Te or Fe. Now it would be stupid to say that Fe is all we are using in this case, because the process is always much more complex, and we are never truly using only one function. Making a decision with a perception function contradicts the very definition of perception, Perception is to take in information, but you will not have any idea what that information means without a decision making function, you need a function like Fe to Te to be able to read into the dynamics of what is happening in order to interpret it.
You are correct in that Fe is a function that moves human dynamics, but that does not mean without humans it simply turns off, that is just ridiculous. Dynamics that are read and detected by Fe are not only people-based dynamics, they are simply how the world works outside of ourselves, although Fe reads into these in a values-based way (which is not the same as emotional passion, I'll get more into that later.) Anyone that has Fe needs Fe to move forward when taking action no matter what they are doing, if Fe or Te was not involved in the OPs example, he would have never ordered anything at all.

I'm going to break my silence on this thread by saying that this feels incredibly false in regards to picking out a lunch item. It's not an emotional decision for the average INTP. Perhaps it would be for an INFJ... idk MBTI and its interpretations are rarely black and white.

There are two things wrong with this:

1. It technically is an emotional decision, the thing is though it is not "emotional" in the sense of emotional passion, like you are thinking. It is emotional in the sense that the OP is making a decision off of a vibe that he is getting, or rather a feeling that he is getting, and not because it is a logically sound decision.

2. Secondly, you need to be aware of the fact that all Fe is not created equal. I am not talking about levels of development here, I am talking about what position it takes in your cognitive function hierarchy. An INTPs Fe is an Fe that is heavily painted by Ti, Ne, and even Si, which means it is an Fe that is going to be used to push logical positions. Also being that it is an Inferior function, it is one that an INTP will have the least awareness off, and will more than likely deny that it is present just because they are not aware that it is present, although if it was not present, then we would not work right, because we need all four functions to really do anything.

Judging functions are reasoning functions, but the vibes it uses to calibrate that reasoning come from the perceptive functions, so not Fe but rather Ne/Si in this case.

An Fe+Ni combination, for instance, would pick up it's vibes from Ni. It would use it's perceptive function to read the situation, then it's reasoning function to decide how to act on that. The vibes are picked up by the perceptive functions, then deconstructed/dissected/organized by the reasoning functions. Though both work very closely so it's hard to distinguish which does what at times...

I have no idea what I'm saying...

Vibes do not exist without Judgment functions (specifically Fi or Fe), a vibe is an interpretation or sorts. When you get a vibe from something, you are reading into the situation in some way, making sense of it if you will. Perceiving function to not make sense of themselves on their own, you need a decision making function to do that. In your example, it is not Ni that is picking up the Vibe, it is Ni that is providing information and Fe that is reading into the vibe.

When a person gives you a "bad vibe", then yes, you did need a perceiving function to actually show you what they are doing, but you needed a decision making function to read into what they are doing and what it means. But Ne or Si is not going to tell you that you don't like this person for some reason on their own, there is a feeling that comes from it, that is where Fe and Fi come it.

The OP made a decision based on a vibe that he got from the dynamics of what he was working with, and then made an executive decision based on that Vibe. Surely tons of other functions were being used, but Fe was the one that took action.

 

[SkyWalker]

You are correct in that Fe is a function that moves human dynamics, but that does not mean without humans it simply turns off, that is just ridiculous. Dynamics that are read and detected by Fe are not only people-based dynamics, they are simply how the world works outside of ourselves, although Fe reads into these in a values-based way (which is not the same as emotional passion, I'll get more into that later.) Anyone that has Fe needs Fe to move forward when taking action no matter what they are doing, if Fe or Te was not involved in the OPs example, he would have never ordered anything at all..

You presented all your stuff as if you oppose everything i say, but you say the same. Maybe I am not writing it in the right way, or you are not reading it in the right way, and vice versa me for you.
With some stuff that you say I dont agree totally, or we are defining it wrong.
I think that Fe/Fi does shut down if there are really no other humans. BUT... ideas of other humans can still have the influence even when they are not around any more. So thats why F still works when other humans are not around. As long as there are ideas of others in your brain (and there always are ideas of others still floating around), you can still "FEEL" on them.
A feeler can for example pick food with F when alone, because of ideas of others/society about that food (without thinking about it as a thing for self independently as T would).
Anyway, feeling is about other people and so is influenced by their opinion on that food, instead of your own self-made rational idea of that food.

 

[Adymus]

No, I am not saying the same thing as you, what I have said twice now appears to be gliding right over your head each time, but I am an optimist so I'll try saying it one more time.

Being a mover of human dynamics is what Fe is mainly known for, but that is not all that it can do, it goes much deeper than this. Feeling functions, make decisions based on values, not specifically human dynamics (although that is where most values-based dynamics present themselves), this is analogous to how Thinking functions make decisions based on logic, not specifically systems (Although systems where most Logic-based Dynamics present themselves.)
Dynamics are a concept that is not covered by MBTI or Jung, so I can't blame you for overlooking this if that is all you know. Dynamics are all around us, constantly occurring, and constantly moving. When you witness a cheetah take down an antelope, you just witnessed a dynamic. When you shoot a person a dirty look, you just influenced a dynamic. When you hack into a website, you also just moved Dynamics.
Te reads into the systemic side of dynamics, as it is a Logic-Based function, meaning it simply Moves and reads into the systemic logic of what is taking taking place; What principles are making things work the way they do and how they are doing it, etc. Now to say that Fe does not work without humans is essentially the same thing as saying that Te does not work without a corporation, or an electronic device, a system of some kind. And it would be equally incorrect, wanna know why? Because everything is a system. There is systemic logic to everything in the universe, and you can never really escape it now matter what you do or where you go. This is actually no different from Fe, although I am going to have to bust out some wording that I have never used before in order to get you to really understand what I am trying to say. Fe is a Mover and reader of not just human Dynamics, but "Story Dynamics." Fe is a function that can push your own story, or read into and influence the other stories behind what is happening. Human beings only make of one kind of story, but it is not bound to human beings because everything is a part of a story, very much like how everything is a part of a system.
In reality, dynamics are not actually separated into Systems and Stories, there are only dynamics. It is only split between the two because that he how we humans (and many other sentient life forms) are designed to understand it. And it is when you begin to combine Te with Fi, or Ti with Fe, that you begin to really understand how there are logical principles to everything, even values-based stuff, and how there are Stories to even Logic-based "stuff". It is all just one Grand Story/system.


This is why ENFJ graphic designers and mathematicians exist, and actually do use their dominant function in their craft, and it is also why if you were trapped on a Desert island, Fe would get plenty of use, even if you are not thinking of people, because all dynamics relevant to your Dynamics moving functions, and as long as dynamics are taking place, Te and Fe have a use.

 

[SkyWalker]

I agree that everything is a system (especially for an INTP )

I am very well read on systems theory like cybernetics etc, yet I don't understand your language.

You use language that is uncommon, and thus hard to understand


And I guess i do the same: I use words like "task conflict settlement" for describing feeling, and then they think my conflict is about psychical aggression or national war only and no one understands

----

Can you give me your best objective definitions of the following:
- human dynamics?
- story dynamics?
- values?

 

[Adymus]

The best way to explain Human or Story dynamics would to explain dynamics as a whole, so I will in throw references to systemic dynamics as well.

There are a lot of metaphors that I like to use to explain Dynamics, but my all time favorite is "the game." In a game there are always these two principles, the goal is to win, and there are a set of rules or parameters that must be addressed and applied in order to win. These principles are also existent in Dynamics, although the rules of the game change depending on what dynamics we are looking at. To play the game of Human dynamics, you have to dance to a certain tune, or play by certain rules. The rules of the human game are composed of etiquette, social norms, rituals, charm, diplomacy, charisma, and so on and so forth.

If you are an INTP, then you are probably retching at all of this, because this is a game that we generally dread playing (assuming we didn't make the rules). Like any other game there is a way to play it right and a way to play it wrong. Playing it right elevates your position in society, more friends, more money, higher paying job, more stuff, etc. Playing it wrong penalizes you by lowering your position in society, lose friends, lose your job, do not pass go do not collect $200.

Now overlapped on top of a Society and human dynamic, are systemic dynamics. The rewards for playing the the system right are extremely similar and sometimes the same: higher paying jobs, more money, more tangible success, etc, etc.


Now then, there is something very crucial that I need to point out. A Society, or a corporation for instance are already made Human and Systemic dynamics respectively, but that is not all dynamics are, Societies and Corps are just two examples, two games among an infinite sea of potential games. A new game can be made at any time.

To have a dynamic, all you need to have are rules/parameters, and there are rules and parameters to everything. In a systemic dynamic, rules are based on logical principles, for instance, if you are not strong enough to kill or flee from the bigger animals, you get eaten, and lose the game. In a human dynamic, rules are based on value principles, for instance, if you cheat on your girlfriend then it demonstrates to her that you do not value the relationship, so she breaks up with you... and you lose the game.

These rules are subject to change at any point in time, when new rules are introduced. For example, because of our advances in civilization, we our system works on different rules than the wild, and we don't really have to worry about bigger fish eating us (literally speaking) so the principle about needing to be physically strong to survive does not really apply to us. Similarly there are many cultures that share mates, and having other sexual partner is completely normal and would not be considered a deal breaker. Dynamics are not static, they can be changed, and new ones can be invented.

Now then, I bring in the word "Values" because in feeling functions, agreeable and disagreeableness is equated to "good" and "bad" respectively. What makes something good or bad depends on values-based the criteria. In the case of Fi, this criteria is personal, and in the case of Fe, this criteria is universal. In human dynamics, playing the game wrong might just get you labeled as a "bad person." For instance, according to the universal rules of our culture, on Mother's day you are supposed to give your mother a call or a gift or whatever. So according to cultural norms and etiquette, if I neglect to do that, then that means I am a bad son, (She is an ENFJ, so she totally would totally think that too.)

I bring in the word "Story" because I wanted to outline another principle within the principles of values based criteria. Every person has a story behind them; we all have goals, we all have dreams, we all have fears, we all have a history, we all have a future, we all have baggage, we all have loves, hates, talents, sensitivities, etc. Fe in the most simple and yet accurate of words, is in essences the dynamics behind how stories interact with each other. Fe is a function that allows you to influence the stories of others, by influencing their loves, hates, fears, etc, and it can also allow you to read into a person's story. When a person looks at you a certain way, or has a certain inflection in their voice, or if they neglect to say hi to you on the way in, it tells you something about their backstory. It tells you thing like what they want, and why they want it. Are they happy, are they sad, do they like something, or do they dislike something, etc. With Fe we are able to both move and interpret the stories of others.

I am going to take this a step further and say that humans are not the only ones that have stories. There is a story to everything, in the exact same way that there is a system to everything. There is a story to the clouds, There is a story a squirrel, There is a story to an H202 molecule, There is a story to the gods, There is a story behind the Universe.

 

[tikru]

Would playing "the game" be sort of related to Jung's concept of 'persona'? In that we wear a mask to get what we want in society? And then some types would find it easier to create a persona than other types? Could our 'stories' be related to Jung's concept of the 'ego'?

I'm probably oversimplifying though.

 

[SkyWalker]

@adymus >

What do you think of this computer/robot-like metaphore:
---

Each agent (be it a human/antelope/lion/whatever) in a system is a processor of tasks.

The current task that the agent is running right now is because of a whole (his)STORY that happened before, which evolved from a combination of influence from self and influence from others.

Sometimes (a lot of times) the current tasks of agents clash:

Agent 1 might want to move object-A right and agent 2 might want to move object-A left.

I call this a TASK CONFLICT situation.

If agent 1 and agent 2 do not have a feeling function, then they would continue to move-left / move-right with their thinking function: resulting in an ever pending deadlock situation where object A stays in the middle (because move-left + move-right = stay in middle).

It is the thinking function which schedules tasks for self (like move left or move right), but this function does not decide in conflict situation.

In conflict situation the feeling function is the only function that is able to settle the conflict and get the agents out of the deadlock situation. ("reading into conflict", what you called "reading into the dynamics")

The thinking function alone would keep the conflict pending until eternity. (So... good thing there is a feeling function too)

To settle a conflict the feeling function of an agent has to allow the other agent to run its task first(cooperate), or an agent has to dissallow (oppose) the other agent to run its task first.

To be able to decide whether to oppose or to cooperate: The feeling function has to give a VALUE to the task of the other agent. If the VALUE is lower than the task for self, then its a bad task and must be opposed. If the VALUE is higher than the task for self, then its a good task and must be allowed.

Are we on the same track?

Is your VALUE my VALUE?
Is your STORY my (his)STORY?
etc?