• OK, it's on.
  • Please note that many, many Email Addresses used for spam, are not accepted at registration. Select a respectable Free email.
  • Done now. Domine miserere nobis.

Introversion Manifests, in part, Due to Laziness?

Chronomar

NOPE
Local time
Today 7:07 AM
Joined
Oct 16, 2008
Messages
678
---
I was trying to deduce why I do, well, basically nothing with other people. I talk to people in work situations, classes, etc...but I never seek people out, never grow close to them, never do anything (like go to some social...thing...see, I don't even know what those social things are!).

Personal rant/More detailed explanation (skip if you want):
I came to the conclusion that it had to do, in a good part, with my lack of motivation, lack of stick-to-itiveness, and procrastination. First of all, procrastinating work leads to busy schedules later, so I can never plan anything with anyone ever. Second, my lack of motivation means I never introduce myself to someone I think seems like they would be a good friend. I only gain friends when random chance puts us in the same class working on the same project.

And even then: my friendships rarely last. After completing whatever project, class, or other situation which I met them in, I never stay in touch.

"I'll call them tommorow" or "I should go find out what's going on with that friend"
goes through my mind often...but I never actually communicate with them.

I've actually known myself to hold an imaginary conversation with a friend I was once close to, but haven't seen in a year. That's when I realize my 96% introversion is something of a problem.

Thesis: I think all this procrastination we INTPs are prone to directly affects and augments our intoversion. It makes our introversion more extreme.
 

Cognisant

cackling in the trenches
Local time
Yesterday 8:07 PM
Joined
Dec 12, 2009
Messages
11,155
---
"You say loner like it's a bad thing..."

Long ago (seriously, I can't remember) I accepted that I'm loner, since then I've grown to believe being a loner makes me something of a mediator and now I wouldn't have it any other way. That's not to say I don't interact with people, in fact as far as I can tell I'm generally considered a likeable/approachable guy who's just incapable of recognising his own ringtone.
 

Lyra

Genesis Engineering Speciation
Local time
Today 7:07 AM
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
992
---
If you're so inclined, there are ways of physiologically manipulating this.

If you're a male, and if you have a somewhat operative sex-drive, the prevention of the expression of sexual drive via masturbation will, IME, force it to be expressed through other channels. If you play around with that, you can probably configure your own psychology and physiology in such a way that your sexual drive* acts as a kind of automatic drive to engage with the external-social.

That doesn't necessarily involve chasing girls. I've found that the drive-- particularly if it's a strong and healthy one-- can be sublimated so that it expresses largely through means which aren't explicitly sexually orientated.

Of course, it might be much more suitable to allow it to act as a kind of drive to engage with whatever else is your calling. But, given that you attributed this to laziness, I'm guessing that you're not currently as fully engaged with whatever that is as you might be?

If you're female, or don't currently express this drive by some means or other (such as masturbation), then none of the above applies. If that's the case, I might have other suggestions. I wouldn't have quite as much experience with them, though, so wouldn't be able to follow up/answer questions reliably.

(Btw, I'm not saying that you should do any of this-- I'm just saying that the option is there, if you're interested. I've experienced a similar inability to engage socially, and have altered it by practical means.)

--

*This has lost currency and gone out of fasion as an idea, but I only use it because I've experienced what I'm talking about. I'm not just guessing or hypothesising.
 

Il Nessuno

Professional Fool
Local time
Today 1:07 AM
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
37
---
Location
Saint Louis, MO
For me it's largely a habit of not taking initiative. Sometimes, I am lazy though. Especially if it comes to big group outings like parties or whatever. And it used to be whenever I went to parties, I always felt I had to talk and work on my social skills and become a better person I guess. But like OreSama said, I'm becoming more accepting of my tendency to seek solitude, and I do like my solitude. Hanging out ain't so bad either though.
 

Words

Only 1 1-F.
Local time
Today 9:07 AM
Joined
Jan 2, 2010
Messages
3,222
---
Location
Order
I was trying to deduce why I do, well, basically nothing with other people. I talk to people in work situations, classes, etc...but I never seek people out, never grow close to them, never do anything (like go to some social...thing...see, I don't even know what those social things are!).

Personal rant/More detailed explanation (skip if you want):
I came to the conclusion that it had to do, in a good part, with my lack of motivation, lack of stick-to-itiveness, and procrastination. First of all, procrastinating work leads to busy schedules later, so I can never plan anything with anyone ever. Second, my lack of motivation means I never introduce myself to someone I think seems like they would be a good friend. I only gain friends when random chance puts us in the same class working on the same project.

And even then: my friendships rarely last. After completing whatever project, class, or other situation which I met them in, I never stay in touch.

"I'll call them tommorow" or "I should go find out what's going on with that friend"
goes through my mind often...but I never actually communicate with them.

I've actually known myself to hold an imaginary conversation with a friend I was once close to, but haven't seen in a year. That's when I realize my 96% introversion is something of a problem.

Thesis: I think all this procrastination we INTPs are prone to directly affects and augments our intoversion. It makes our introversion more extreme.

I share the same problem. My laziness prevents me from greater interactions. I am interested to converse but its not so much that' it would overcome the tired feeling. the great 'introvert' energy spent during interaction + the procrastination habbit is this result... i thnk.
 

Cognisant

cackling in the trenches
Local time
Yesterday 8:07 PM
Joined
Dec 12, 2009
Messages
11,155
---
MetaStructure said:
If you're so inclined, there are ways of physiologically manipulating this.

If you're a male, and if you have a somewhat operative sex-drive, the prevention of the expression of sexual drive via masturbation will, IME, force it to be expressed through other channels. If you play around with that, you can probably configure your own psychology and physiology in such a way that your sexual drive* acts as a kind of automatic drive to engage with the external-social.

That doesn't necessarily involve chasing girls. I've found that the drive-- particularly if it's a strong and healthy one-- can be sublimated so that it expresses largely through means which aren't explicitly sexually orientated.
How exactly is that done?

I'm not looking to change my loner ways but there are other areas of my life where the same principal could be applied...
 

Lyra

Genesis Engineering Speciation
Local time
Today 7:07 AM
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
992
---
How exactly is that done?

I'm not looking to change my loner ways but there are other areas of my life where the same principal could be applied...

One of the anomalous things about modern society and the Abrahamic-European societies from which it developed is that there's hardly any explicit, direct knowledge about this type of thing. And, probably for related reasons, there's a general utter lack of ability to interpret pertinent writings from cultures where there was such direct knowledge. If we were to view the vast trans-personal dynamics in which humans partake as living processes-- spanning hundreds of years, perhaps-- it's like the societal-body in which we are cells lacks some basic capacity for awareness. It's as thought our culture itself has something like Autism; we don't have direct access to a basic experience that was essential to humans before us and apart from us, and we very rarely even recognise that we're missing it.

I've been researching this for some time, and it relates to such diverse phenomena as the degraded and overly-specified nature of current male body-concepts (reduction of sexuality to the sexual organs and sex-as-a-means-to-orgasm), the way in which sexual experience is commonly divided into various intensional categories of acts instead of continuous extensional descriptions (that might sound strange, but Chinese and Indian writers from pre-colonial eras definitely didn't understand sex in a way comparable to how we do), and the devaluation of personal, experiential physical understanding.

Neidan (Taoist Inernal Alchemy), old Indian and Chinese sex-books, the training given to the concubines and Emperors of old Imperial China, the various yogic traditions and countless other examples: these were about direct bodily knowledge and the manipulation of our psyhological-physological configurations with the intention of producing specific states of being. People are generally inclined to reject them out of hand nowadays, but there was real technical understanding there of a kind we don't even approach. I'm a Transhumanist at heart, but the potential for the exploration and enhancement of embodied experience-- without technological augmentation*-- is great.

*Of the kinds currently suggested and considered the likely ways in which we'll progress.

Specifics, though: it's a gradual process. It's like learning a lost language. Learning to listen to the signals of your own body and to construct new physical orientations upon the basis of what you learn from such. But it's immediately rewarding and ultimately worth whatever you put into it.

First, I'd recommend Feldenkrais lessons. Quebodeaux's posture with a purpose is the best recorded course I've found, but occasional in-person lessons with a practitioner are important. Feldenkrais' books are informative, but probably unnecessary for your purposes.

As you use Feldenkrais more and more, you get an intuitive sense for how to alter your bodily experience. It becomes apparent that all experience, and what we call our 'personality', is bodily. That the modification of the rhythms and patterns of movement and sensation is a modification of our entire self. Exploring sexuality and habits of sex and masturbation independently, upon that basis, would likely be the most beneficial way of going about things. Here's what I did, though:

I cycled between different physical configurations, logging my experiences each day, for months. There were 4 basic orientations: non-masturbation without use of the Feldenkrais method, non-masturbation with use of the Feldenkrais method, non-regulation without use of the Feldenkrais method, and non-regulation with use of the Feldenkrais method. During the weeks when I was using the method, I also attempted to exercise a certain willpower and direction in my daily behavior; during the weeks when I wasn't, I didn't. I alternated between these four, spending a minimum of one week (and a maximum of 1 month) at a time in each configuration. I explored as much as I could and attempted to avoid any will-to-beleive or wish-to-have-found-an-answer as far as possible. I think the whole thing lasted for 4 months or so.

By the end of it, I knew, as clearly as I know the difference between night and day, that the combination of non-masturbation and willed-directed activity resulted in an inexhaustible energy and outward-directedness while its opposite, non-regulation and no direction to activity, resulted in the breakdown of any kind of ability to willfully exert myself and a progressive degradation of bodily awareness. I found out a lot more about myself and how the rhythms of my physiology function, but that's not relevant to anybody else.

The essential thing to this orientation is the complete breakdown of any association between sexual urge and masturbation. If you're fighting with yourself, it will likely do more harm than good. It's a clear sign that whatever you're doing isn't working naturally. Best to listen to your body when that happens, and change course.

I've gone quite some way beyond that, now: the more attention you pay, the more specific the modifications you can make become. How you direct that energy, how much flexibility of experience you have within any particular configuration, and how able you are to break the conditions of that orientation without undermining it all change. If you have some source of activity which you naturally engage in to express yourself-- like compulsive writing or contemplative thought or art, for example-- I'd expect that that's what will increase in intensify first.

I don't know for certain if my results apply to anybody else (and doubt that they apply to any women). But I do strongly suspect that similar exploration will result in similar discoveries, and a similar understanding of how to directly-- without the mediation of abstractions or conceptual divisions-- manipulate one's own physiological-kineshetic orientation in such a way as to break-down static or inhibited patterns of experience.


So... er... best of luck. I don't expect anybody to do this. But... the possibility's there. Personality is bodily. Best of luck along the way, if you happen to choose to walk it. If not, best of luck along whatever other way you choose to walk.

I know this is the type of thing that lots of people will find ridiculous, or laugh at, or find embarrassing... but, frankly, I don't care. They can kindly impale themselves upon their own limitation and historical short-sightedness.
 

Lyra

Genesis Engineering Speciation
Local time
Today 7:07 AM
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
992
---
In response to BananaPhallus:

sexual frustration

Disagreed.

effectively handled and managed

With regards to the orientation I constructed over time and after much subtle experiential refinement: yes. At first? No, I could tend towards violence and aggressiveness. It was certainly a way out of laziness. However, I must qualify this: the assumption that there's some kind of 'energy' is just the best explanation I've found for what I experienced pre-conceptually. And I'm not sure it really fits: it's more like an increase in immersion and intensity, and a resilience of vitality and ability to readily exert oneself.

Are all 'motivations' or compulsions at their most basal level, the same type of energy, only repackaged and interpreted differently?

I don't know about that, but I have found that our psychologies and physiologies form incredibly subtle and delicately balanced systems which can be influenced as a whole by means of the deliberate manipulation of any one part. That's why I'd emphasise the need to stop if your feel the wrong type of pain or discomfort: the body is homeostatic in nature, and ignoring its signals that some essential balance is being damaged is a sure way to disrupt the entire complex system.
 

LAM

Active Member
Local time
Today 6:07 PM
Joined
Dec 31, 2009
Messages
345
---
I wish I could understand what meta structure said fully...
 

Chronomar

NOPE
Local time
Today 7:07 AM
Joined
Oct 16, 2008
Messages
678
---
I wish I could understand what meta structure said fully...
Yeah...I don't really understand either. I wasn't refering to sexual drive in the OP.
(or at least my ego and super-ego weren't...I have no idea what my id was thinking ;)...or so would say Freud)

But, I was really refering to frustration with not developing the ability to form social contacts which I think will prove instrumental in future career plans (in the world of academia...which I've heard is just as bad as ever). That's the practical reason why I would like to think I am capable of making friends. Well, actually, in that first example, these "friends" would be more like connections.

In addtion to that, I sometimes wish I had spent more time with people who I noted had interesting ideas and could have helped me to develop my own ideas further. Unfortunatly, most people are not willing to just freely share and discuss ideas without first laying the groundwork of "friendship". In general, I too wish to be a loner in terms of actual friendship...but I do not want to be a loner in the exchange of ideas...that would be both the gateway to insanity and to annonymity. Perhaps it sounds heartless that I would like friends, but not for some sort of "warm-fuzzy-feeling" or the "joys of friendship" or some other thing that I have never experienced and never understood.
But that is the way it is for now.
 

aracaris

Active Member
Local time
Today 7:07 AM
Joined
Sep 5, 2009
Messages
214
---
If you're so inclined, there are ways of physiologically manipulating this.

If you're a male, and if you have a somewhat operative sex-drive, the prevention of the expression of sexual drive via masturbation will, IME, force it to be expressed through other channels. If you play around with that, you can probably configure your own psychology and physiology in such a way that your sexual drive* acts as a kind of automatic drive to engage with the external-social.

That doesn't necessarily involve chasing girls. I've found that the drive-- particularly if it's a strong and healthy one-- can be sublimated so that it expresses largely through means which aren't explicitly sexually orientated.

Of course, it might be much more suitable to allow it to act as a kind of drive to engage with whatever else is your calling. But, given that you attributed this to laziness, I'm guessing that you're not currently as fully engaged with whatever that is as you might be?

If you're female, or don't currently express this drive by some means or other (such as masturbation), then none of the above applies. If that's the case, I might have other suggestions. I wouldn't have quite as much experience with them, though, so wouldn't be able to follow up/answer questions reliably.

(Btw, I'm not saying that you should do any of this-- I'm just saying that the option is there, if you're interested. I've experienced a similar inability to engage socially, and have altered it by practical means.)

--

*This has lost currency and gone out of fasion as an idea, but I only use it because I've experienced what I'm talking about. I'm not just guessing or hypothesising.


MetaStructure, I didn't read all of what you said in the post further down (I know my bad, but my ability to focus is a bit crappy as of late, fight it as I may) but I am reminded I read a book a long time ago, I want to say it was by Jung, this is making me want to dig up my books and see if I can find the one, that discussed this issue some.

Anyhow I'm a bit skeptical that this doesn't apply to women, personally I've found that aggressive impulses, sexuality, creative energy, are all very interwoven with one another, as if essentially the same thing being channeled in different (but still ever connected) ways.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Anyhow on the introversion manifesting due to laziness, for me at least that's not the case, it's just that there's soooo many other things I'd rather be doing, that I find it easier to invest energy in, and get more fulfillment out of. I don't feel the same degree of desire to get out and socialize as most people I know (though this is certainly not to say I don't feel any need at all, just much less), which has deeply frustrated a number of people in the past whom wanted more of my attention than I was willing to give, or wanted to transform me into some sort of social butterfly. I've actually learned a lot from people pushing me in that direction, and have become much better at socializing, which has it's benefits, and can be a very valuable skill, but I still spend more time avoiding doing so (or trying to find ways to avoid doing so, which can be hard when so many jobs expect a person to play the part of an extrovert, and to play it well).
 

Geminii

Consultant, inventor, project innovator
Local time
Today 3:07 PM
Joined
Jan 7, 2010
Messages
222
---
Location
Perth, Australia
I don't go out with other people and so forth either. It's not laziness, it's that there's no drive to do so. Putting up with other people for any length of time is not a significantly positive experience (on average) for most of us, so why would we repeat it any more than we had to?

It's like saying "Hey, I never scatter tacks on the floor and stomp on them." It's because it's not generally a great experience and there are probably a whole lot better things to do with your time.

The downside is that social interaction does have other intangible benefits, so sometimes it's worth doing (in the long run).
 

Lyra

Genesis Engineering Speciation
Local time
Today 7:07 AM
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
992
---
Yeah...I don't really understand either. I wasn't refering to sexual drive in the OP.

Well-- that's precisely the point. What you said in your OP-- and what you attributed your problems to-- is symptomatic of an overall psychophysiological configuration which is unaware of how to alter itself in such a way that this problem is overcome. That you weren't referring to sexual drive therefore doesn't mean that it's not the essence of the issue you're discussing (I'm not saying it is, though).
 

bluesquid

Active Member
Local time
Today 2:07 AM
Joined
Nov 29, 2009
Messages
260
---
Well-- that's precisely the point. What you said in your OP-- and what you attributed your problems to-- is symptomatic of an overall psychophysiological configuration which is unaware of how to alter itself in such a way that this problem is overcome. That you weren't referring to sexual drive therefore doesn't mean that it's not the essence of the issue you're discussing (I'm not saying it is, though).

Masturbation huh? I think you have obviously over thought masturbation. Im going to allow that their is truth in what you have posted, but that you discovered this "truth" in an attempt to deal with your own emotions. Your emotions viewed through the lens of the "Abrahamic-European societies" you are a member of.

anyway.@ Asylum

Your unconscious is spurring your conscious to write about it. Isnt that a sign in itself? You may not understand the value, but intrinsically know it to be of value.

I have made my views of social skills available in other threads. so no repeat here.

what I will say, in spoiler tags since you seem to be so fond of them :p is:

There will be relationships in your life that you want to be strong and deep. If you are ill prepared for lack of practice, that relationship will suffer. A love interest, a child, a dying parent. Whatever the scenario, there will be a scenario. And you wont have the requisite skills. IMHO
 

Lyra

Genesis Engineering Speciation
Local time
Today 7:07 AM
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
992
---
No-- I was referring to the wider 'physiological language' discussed in my first post. Sexual habits are one aspect of that.
 

bluesquid

Active Member
Local time
Today 2:07 AM
Joined
Nov 29, 2009
Messages
260
---
No-- I was referring to the wider 'physiological language' discussed in my first post. Sexual habits are one aspect of that.

oh, I dont see.


as for the OP. Its not laziness. You were a child strong in bodily kinesthetic dancing around the drooling children strong in interpersonal, who had yet to learn to talk.

just an example
 

BigApplePi

Banned
Local time
Today 2:07 AM
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
8,984
---
Location
New York City (The Big Apple) & State
Yeah...I don't really understand either. I wasn't refering to sexual drive in the OP.
(or at least my ego and super-ego weren't...I have no idea what my id was thinking ;)...or so would say Freud)

But, I was really refering to frustration with not developing the ability to form social contacts which I think will prove instrumental in future career plans (in the world of academia...which I've heard is just as bad as ever). That's the practical reason why I would like to think I am capable of making friends. Well, actually, in that first example, these "friends" would be more like connections.

In addtion to that, I sometimes wish I had spent more time with people who I noted had interesting ideas and could have helped me to develop my own ideas further. Unfortunatly, most people are not willing to just freely share and discuss ideas without first laying the groundwork of "friendship". In general, I too wish to be a loner in terms of actual friendship...but I do not want to be a loner in the exchange of ideas...that would be both the gateway to insanity and to annonymity. Perhaps it sounds heartless that I would like friends, but not for some sort of "warm-fuzzy-feeling" or the "joys of friendship" or some other thing that I have never experienced and never understood.
But that is the way it is for now.

Asylum. You began this thread so I will try to focus on your theme. There is the internal world of the introvert and the external world of the extrovert. Seems those would be different. But are they? As long as they are different, what would be the motive to cross? What if you found something in your internal world common to another? What if you found something in the external world you'd like to incorporate into your world? Would that now encourage you to tap socialization?

You are reading an introvert so I phrase it the above odd way, lol.
 

BigApplePi

Banned
Local time
Today 2:07 AM
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
8,984
---
Location
New York City (The Big Apple) & State
But, I was really refering to frustration with not developing the ability to form social contacts which I think will prove instrumental in future career plans (in the world of academia...which I've heard is just as bad as ever). That's the practical reason why I would like to think I am capable of making friends. Well, actually, in that first example, these "friends" would be more like connections.

In addtion to that, I sometimes wish I had spent more time with people who I noted had interesting ideas and could have helped me to develop my own ideas further. Unfortunatly, most people are not willing to just freely share and discuss ideas without first laying the groundwork of "friendship". In general, I too wish to be a loner in terms of actual friendship...but I do not want to be a loner in the exchange of ideas...that would be both the gateway to insanity and to annonymity. Perhaps it sounds heartless that I would like friends, but not for some sort of "warm-fuzzy-feeling" or the "joys of friendship" or some other thing that I have never experienced and never understood.
But that is the way it is for now.

Whoops. I must be going off the deep end as I forgot to address the quote above. "Friends" are an advanced state of social contact. One doesn't begin social contact with friends. Those people come much later (unless you hit it off right away) over time. The way to start is with "contacts." Then statistical encounters take over. Most contacts will be misses. Some may look like they have potential. Narrow them down or keep up large numbers if you're looking for an ultimate hit. This may be embarrassing or frustrating or unpleasant, but at least you can take that home with you for comparison with prior embarrassments or frustrations or unpleasantries.
 

LTDE

Redshirt
Local time
Today 6:07 PM
Joined
Jan 11, 2010
Messages
24
---
I have thought about this. I think it is true.

I also wondered if it could be connected to my ability to be able to suppress hunger in situations where I am expected to buy food.
 

Kellhus

Member
Local time
Today 2:07 AM
Joined
Feb 3, 2010
Messages
84
---
Location
United States, East Coast
I was trying to deduce why I do, well, basically nothing with other people. I talk to people in work situations, classes, etc...but I never seek people out, never grow close to them, never do anything (like go to some social...thing...see, I don't even know what those social things are!).

Personal rant/More detailed explanation (skip if you want):
I came to the conclusion that it had to do, in a good part, with my lack of motivation, lack of stick-to-itiveness, and procrastination. First of all, procrastinating work leads to busy schedules later, so I can never plan anything with anyone ever. Second, my lack of motivation means I never introduce myself to someone I think seems like they would be a good friend. I only gain friends when random chance puts us in the same class working on the same project.

And even then: my friendships rarely last. After completing whatever project, class, or other situation which I met them in, I never stay in touch.

"I'll call them tommorow" or "I should go find out what's going on with that friend"
goes through my mind often...but I never actually communicate with them.

I've actually known myself to hold an imaginary conversation with a friend I was once close to, but haven't seen in a year. That's when I realize my 96% introversion is something of a problem.

Thesis: I think all this procrastination we INTPs are prone to directly affects and augments our intoversion. It makes our introversion more extreme.

I cannot agree with this. Genuine introversion cannot be bred from simple "laziness". Extroverts are people that need a higher level of external stimulation to occupy and introverts possess a lower gauge for external stimulus needed, oftentimes being quite proficient in creating their own. Thusly they tend to wear out quicker from external stimulus and are introverts. Because of such, it is a behavior, and introversion is the cause and not the effect. In which case laziness is not at all applicable as a cause for genuine introversion, but perhaps a temporary lazy day where you don't wish to go out.
 
Top Bottom