INTPs in the military

[Oziriz]

Well, in 6 days I'm going in the army... In Finland all men have to go, and I'll have to stay there for 6 months or more. Lucky me right?

It's a major problem for me because I'm not social, I can't shut off my brain and not think like they want you to do, and I hate running around with heavy packing. What would you do if you were in my position? Obviously I'll have to go and try my best, but it's gonna be hell...

There are some positive things though, like, for example, I like guns and I'll get to shoot with a fully automatic rifle that fires, I think, 700 rounds a minute, then there's of course the fact that I don't need to worry about rent and stuff like that for a while because they'll cover it, and last but not least maybe I'll learn to stop procrastinating... (which I'm doing right now )

 

[murkrow]

Don't worry, it will be enjoyable.

They are going to break you down for the first chunk of it but everyone hates that part, not just antisocial types.

You might even develop some social capabilities and start to have a little faith in the people around you! (I don't mean that in a demeaning way.)

Also you'll be fit when it's over.

 

[Ogion]

Hmm yes, in germany there is something similar, although it is not that strict anymore. You can reject by saying that you have moral dilemmas with being in the military. Then you have to do some civilian service. For me it was even easier, i got rejected for 'medical reasons' (well, they didn't need me and i was not really in a athletic condition)

But for me the hardest part in it would have been, to follow orders and not think for myself. Perhaps you can actively look for things which are good to know/learn. Like a little discipline and physical fitness.

Else i can't help you, since i got around it myself

Ogion

 

[Oziriz]

You might even develop some social capabilities and start to have a little faith in the people around you! (I don't mean that in a demeaning way.)

Also you'll be fit when it's over.
-----------------------------------------
But for me the hardest part in it would have been, to follow orders and not think for myself. Perhaps you can actively look for things which are good to know/learn. Like a little discipline and physical fitness.

Yup, that's gonna be good, and that's what I've got to do in order to get through, there has to be a lot to learn there, maybe even something useful. :P And we also have the whole civilian service thing if you've got moral dilemmas with it, and I guess I'll have to go with that if I really can't handle the military... But yeah, like Mukrow said, it might even be enjoyable, I wouldn't know because I haven't tried running around in a forest, with an assault rifle, a backpack weighing 30kg and some camouflaged clothing. I guess after I've been there for two weeks, after which you get to come home for the weekend, I'll post something to let you know what it's like...

 

[Ogion]

Okay. So, have fun, or let's say, find interesting things

Ogion

 

[Vrecknidj]

A friend of mine is a retired major in the US army. He's an INTP. He managed just fine, and made a career of it.

Dave

 

[Kuu]

Following orders, giving orders, being energized all the time, having to socialize all the time, and all for something that I don't even want to do... I'd go completely crazy! Lucky me that military service here is by lottery and only a small percentage of people end in it... and I didn't.

 

[Olba]

Well, gladly I'm not going to join the army.

There's no way I could get through it, physically and socially. And I just don't like the idea of being tied to my nationality so strongly. Ironic as it is, I don't feel anything for or from my nation. I couldn't care less, and therefore I see no reason why I should even think of ever even giving out the possibility of dying for it.

 

[Jordan~]

Conscientious objection! Surely they have that? You can serve it in a CO union, in most places.

Alternatively, give yourself a temporary injury that prevents much physical action.

Avoiding conscription for dummies. :P

I mean, yes, it could be enjoyable and you could come away with some new skills. Or some unprecedented situation could come up and you could end up having to fight. Is it worth the risk?

So glad to live in Britain. :P

On a side note, I don't have the temperament to join the army. I can't stand taking orders, especially when there's no justification given or when they don't make sense to me. Conscription itself slots into the "doesn't make sense to me" category, so I'd be embittered against it from the very start; and as a pacifist, I can count limbs I'd rather lose than serve in the forces.

 

[Dissident]

Luckily military service is optional here in Argentina, if you choose to go you get paid and all. If I was forced to do it I would see it as a test of will, I'd endure it, but I'd rather go to prison for whatever lenght of time than going to war or something like that.

 

[Olba]

I mean, yes, it could be enjoyable and you could come away with some new skills. Or some unprecedented situation could come up and you could end up having to fight. Is it worth the risk?

The biggest thing about the military for me would be the papers. Well, I'm planning a career in the field of English, most likely teaching.

So glad to live in Britain. :P

That's not going to make you happy. Except that you lucky bastards get bacon and eggs every morning. I want some too. And you get tea every morning too. And you have Starbucks. Here in Finland, we have none of those. We just have a wasteland the size of half of our nation, some forest, technology, maths geeks and freaking cold weather.

Well, we haven't been in a war in about sixty years. The last time was with Russia back in the 1940s, I think. And we were stupid enough to go at it twice in a row.

On a side note, I don't have the temperament to join the army. I can't stand taking orders, especially when there's no justification given or when they don't make sense to me. Conscription itself slots into the "doesn't make sense to me" category, so I'd be embittered against it from the very start; and as a pacifist, I can count limbs I'd rather lose than serve in the forces.

In my case, it's a lot more selfish than just that. For one, I value my own life over everything else. In our philosophy class, I was the only one who agreed that morals and norms aren't higher than life itself if put to in order by personal value. And for one, I don't care about nationalism or nations. It would be a lot easier to just name all the lands the Common Human Nation and be done with it. Then we could at least pretend that there are no wars, just local rebellions.

And just like I value my life, I value life in other forms as well. I don't want to kill people. Well, the obvious solution would be to train myself as a medic. But then I would be at a higher risk, since snipers tend to target medics for obvious reasons.

And joining the army to be their webmaster just doesn't make any sense. "Good morning. I work for the army and I manage their website."

 

[Jordan~]

Pfft, I sincerely hope that my future employers wouldn't value that I'd spent time in the military more than a legitimate diploma proving my education.

It's the uniform, the barking of orders, all the general military crap that goes on, that I can't stand. And the inherent nationalism involved, which drives me wild. We're all African if you go back far enough, and we're living beings equally as valid as eachother besides. Why are we expected to risk our lives and end other people's to defend imaginary lines on a map? An ideal, if the worst came to the worst, I could fight for; and only if there really was no other way. A country, I could not.

 

[Oziriz]

Pfft, I sincerely hope that my future employers wouldn't value that I'd spent time in the military more than a legitimate diploma proving my education.

Depending on your choice of career, for example, if you're going to be a programmer the military doesn't much help, if anything it should prove the opposite... But I also find the fact that employers are asking for school diplomas and ignoring actual skill stupid, especially in fields I'd like to work in, most of all I'd like to work as a programmer. While I have the skill to be able to work almost anywhere as one, I have no diploma to prove it, and I won't get one either. They want you to go through 8 years of stuff you already know just to get a piece of paper saying you indeed do know it, instead they could just ask you to write a small program incorporating the things they need you to do... Anyway, back on topic. :P

I mean, yes, it could be enjoyable and you could come away with some new skills. Or some unprecedented situation could come up and you could end up having to fight. Is it worth the risk?

Well, there's virtually no risk that I would end up having to fight, it's highly unlikely Finland will ever go to war again during my lifetime, and I'm not gonna go anywhere to fight for some other country.

Following orders, giving orders, being energized all the time, having to socialize all the time, and all for something that I don't even want to do... I'd go completely crazy! Lucky me that military service here is by lottery and only a small percentage of people end in it... and I didn't.

A lottery? WTF? Wouldn't it be better to let people join if they want to? I mean, what if the military ends up being unlucky and get a bunch of overweight, lazy people that don't wanna go... They'll hardly change completely and feel like running around shooting a bunch of people should you go to war, a conscript lottery makes no sense to me, not that the military ever had any sense...

 

[EditorOne]

"Depending on your choice of career, for example, if you're going to be a programmer the military doesn't much help, if anything it should prove the opposite."

To the extent that the military teaches how to work successfully in teams, and to the extent that a programmer is invariably part of a team, this is not necessarily the case. Army life will give an INTP useful insight into functioning with others, which we all have to do. Some of it may have to be reverse-engineered from the particulars back up to the concepts, but hey, that's what we do, right?

"But I also find the fact that employers are asking for school diplomas and ignoring actual skill stupid"

Yeah, well, get used to it, and consider this from someone exactly in your boat: I've made a career without a college diploma* in a field that requires one, by doing exactly what you said, getting it done. But there have been several key times when the absence of even the bachelor of arts degree meant I couldn't jump to another career, and there are times when that was the best thing I could have done. Here's the thing: You're going to be dealing with people who can't figure out if you're qualified and need the certification provided by others to work their way forward to a decision. The diploma allows you to avoid spending a lot of time convincing dullards you're the cat's pajamas or whatever.

* Went the full four years, hit reefs and shoals the final year and never bothered going back for the tidbit of effort required to wrap it up because, like you, my position was "if they are so stupid they need to see the diploma, they are too stupid for me to work for them." It was the wrong position, one fueled by a desperate desire to escape the tedium and ennui rended by 17 continuous years of school.

We don't do this often, but: Learn from another INTP's relevant experience. If you want to avoid having to deal with as much stupidity as possible for the rest of your life, get the damned diploma even if you get so bored and frustrated you'd strangle kittens.

 

[Oziriz]

To the extent that the military teaches how to work successfully in teams, and to the extent that a programmer is invariably part of a team, this is not necessarily the case. Army life will give an INTP useful insight into functioning with others, which we all have to do.

You have a point there...

We don't do this often, but: Learn from another INTP's relevant experience. If you want to avoid having to deal with as much stupidity as possible for the rest of your life, get the damned diploma even if you get so bored and frustrated you'd strangle kittens.

Haha, I'll take that under advisement... I'm still gonna try, when I get back from hell in 6 months to get a job even as the single programmer of some small local software company, might not earn me a lot of money but at least there I'll enjoy my job. I can't see myself doing the random job the average joe takes, like working at a store or moving cars (I live in a major import city in our country) for 8 hours a day, I need to use my brain... Hell, any job where I get to think would be fun, but they all require diplomas and/or other stuff. Pretty much anything listed here would be fun, except maybe for university professor... Anyway, I did go to a 3 year college, but the teachers there knew nothing and we were forced to take economy courses too, which I have no interest in whatsoever. I spent a year and a half there but completely lost interest after they taught us Visual Basic instead of some actually useful language, so if I decide to go back so I can get that damn piece of paper, I'll only have to waste two more years of my life. Yay!

 

[Oblivious]

Just survived my first field camp.

So what did I do? 6km route march with 30kg pack, pumping, fieldcraft, more pumping, digging my grave (mini trench to sleep in at night) with the tiniest hand hoe you've ever seen, yet more pumping, then maybe some crunches, crawling under live machine gun fire.

Oh, did I mention pumping?

Yeah that about covers it. I can't give more exact details or you might never hear from me again. Hint hint.

This whole military thing is really just something you get used to. Yeah its tough at first, but you keep at it and it becomes bearable then even enjoyable. You become fit, strong, disciplined, proud of what you've overcome and that rare thing you don't see very often now: a real man.

Of course you don't just go through it and poof you've done it. Every excruciating, exhausting step of the way you have to be make again the choice that you will not bow to the pain and that you will come out a stronger person, a conqueror. You will have to do this because you will think of quiting, because you will think of just collapsing into the nearest ditch and leaving it the next guy to pick up your tired ass. I think it was my pride that stopped me from doing that.

Why do I want to do this? Well I'll be stuck in the military for a little under 2 years (Yes, my country Singapore practises 2 year conscription for every fit man over 18) anyway, if that's the case I will be making the most of my time here. Soldiering might not be related to many jobs, but good employers will always value time spent in the military and military rank even more.

Why? You can work in a team as already mentioned, you can keep time (or you get pumped), you know how to follow instructions, you have taken some serious shit so you have better work attitude, and your arms are strong from all the pumping.

If you manage to make officer, which you should have a chance at since the military is always looking out for leadership, it just sweetens the deal since you know how to command men and motivate them, you can schedule, you can manage assets, you can plan both strategically and tactically plus all the other basic advantages, just more so, since military determines rank by how much shit you can take.

So yeah if I can't have my pie, I want my cake and I will have it.

But yes, the social aspect is not something that can be cut through with just will alone. I am still the quiet, weird guy no one really understands. What I am famous for is saying and doing incomprehensible things, smiling and laughing creepily to myself and of course, not giving up even if it kills me. Particularly unsettling is the strange fact that many people in my company seem to know my name even though they're in different platoons.

As Ayn Rand said: There's no such thing as a bad job.

 

[loveofreason]

Yay - in the middle of uniformity Oblivious can be himself and keep them baffled!

Keep us informed!

 

[Jordan~]

That sounds like the most awful thing. I read the first two paragraphs and felt like hiding. I would die, or at least be such a nuisance that they'd just kick me out - living by a schedule, and worst of all someone else's schedule, taking orders, having to obey without question... heck, not getting my own bedroom (or any private space) in itself would drive me mad. No, I was not made for military life, I think. Ugh, it's really too terrible to contemplate... I think I'd find myself spending a lot of time as an angry ESFJ.

Is it arrogance to be repulsed by the idea of bending knee?

 

[Ogion]

No, i don't think that is arrogance. Or if it would be equally arrogant to ask you to bend your knee. No i think it is the question wether you are (or like to be) independent (and thus on your own) or dependent (and thus 'cared' for).

I wouldn't lke that too. Although learning some discipline would be great, i think i should try it myself. Because actually it is more like: Do that, even if you don't like it, or you will have to do worse things, which you like even less. Or not? To have discipline for important things i think is valuable. To just be orderly, punctual, obedient and such i for myself wouldn't find valuable.

But of course i think it is interesting to hear (read) your experiences, Oblivious.

Ogion

 

[Wisp]

Ogion! You're back!

 

[Ogion]

Argh., double post. Anyway.

Hi, yes i'm back
We had a lot to do in the last weeks (and i had to write my damn paper for a course in university) so i had to little time. Now i have 4 pages of "New Posts" to catch up

Ogion

 

[Dissident]

Thats what you get for leaving!

Welcome back man

 

[Decaf]

I felt like my first two years in the military were great. I went from being weak to strong, I learned how to jump-start my ass when I'm hesitating or procrastinating and I came away from it with great stories, which is part of why I joined in the first place. The next four years I was in the National Guard (one weekend a month, two weeks deployment during the summer) which was alright. I liked my unit (I think my commander was an ENTP) and the pay was good for the time I spent.

There were some things that really grated on me, but not the things most people suspect. I was fine with following orders for the most part because for the most part, my superiors were worthy of some respect and they generally don't "command" you to do things. Its just like working for a civilian boss. Why yell when you can tell?

What really bugged me was that I had to be clean shaven all the time and my uniform had to look great. Sometimes I came in looking like a duffel bag with a 5 o'clock (the next day) shadow... that kind of perpetual ritual just annoys me. I hate the paperwork too, but you get used to it.

I'm not sure where I was going with all that... I'm glad I'm out, but I'm glad I joined too.

 

[Jordan~]

The military is still pretty high on my list of worst nightmares, not that I have such a list. What do you think I am, INTJ?