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INTP principles

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#1
I've been wondering about this for a while. They say INTPs are easy-going until you violate one of their principles.
What are some of you guys' principles and how did you arrive of them in the absence of Fi?
I think we can rule out religious/ political indoctrination for most of you?
So, do you use Ti-Ne logic? If so, how do you demarcate the principles that you personally believe in from the equally logical principles that other people/society etc advocate? Do you use Fe (respect for the rights of others)????? If so, what do you do when it comes to your own rights?
 

Philosophyking87

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#2
I'm not entirely conscious of my principles.
I just "know" when someone's crossed the line, and I become incredibly aggressive/inflexible.

It's as if my ethical understanding is done over time, so I'm never entirely aware of the specific underlying principles that rule my mind.

But I'm sure I have principles. I'm always quick to point out, in detail, why someone's actions are unacceptable.
 

MissQuote

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#3
I mostly think everyone should leave everyone else alone. Not my business what other people do anymore than it is their business what I do. As long as there is no harm being done to the weaker I do not really care what others do.

I get rather irritated when people spread uneducated hysteria based on feelings of fear or biased tainted research about scientific progression.

For example; Went on a little unexpected rant on Easter in front of half the family towards my mom because I overheard her speaking to my kid about the dangers of GMO's but she was confusing GMO's with irradiation and pesticides, lumping them all together as the same evil diabolical thing that is destroying healthy food.


But then I had a good conversation with her just the other day where I first listened to her speak of her concerns of the political nature and business monopolies on seed supply and what not, and after explained exactly what genes are to her- essentially a computer type program- and a bit about evolution and how the pure science of it all is not, in and of itself, any sort of evil or inherently dangerous thing.
 
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#4
I agree for the most part that everybody should just leave everybody else alone.

But only to a point. I don't really care if somebody's a racist. I do care if they go around spreading garbage racist propaganda, and I especially care if they're hurting people. I don't really care if somebody does drugs (I do) or even if they're a junkie. But I care when they start robbing their mothers and hurting those around them.

In both cases I feel pity for the perpetrator and the perpetrated. I really don't believe in justice. I believe some actions are wrong though. Both the racist and the junkie need some help, probably somebody to talk to, to stop the cycle of committing actions that are wrong. I don't think punishment is rehabilitative though.
 
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#5
I think we INTPs have a problem with pointless rules and authority for authority's sake. I know I don't want my toes stepped on, so I think we're often pretty hands-off
 

EyeSeeCold

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#6
Personally I don't have any principles I enforce on my environment, well perhaps besides mental peace and sensible behavior.

I do have unspoken principles though, that people are judged by. When those are violated I take away my respect for the person or label them as someone who doesn't deserve any. It's best to keep them unspoken as then you are better able judge one's natural behavior; if you mean something to me I'll bring it to your attention, but still your respect would be waning.
 

Dapper Dan

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#7
Shoot, I'm not even sure what my "principles" would be. :confused:

I can imagine my reaction, though. Surgical amputation. If you've somehow managed to violate a principle so ingrained in humanity that I can't even think of what it is, you're gonna get cut off.
 

A22

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#8
I live by my principles.
My principles are based on logic.
If someone shows me the principle I was following is illogical, I stop following it.
 
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#9
I aspire to that ^ though often fail and cling to intuitive and perhaps illogical opinions
 
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#10
the horst thing can be stress me is a stupid people who wants rule my life... i have a big problen with other's autority of me.. so, that's my first principle.
 

SandMizzle

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#11
I really don't know if my principles are built on Fi or Fe or anything else. They just sound logic to me and I often don't understand it when others have different kind of views, not that I wouldn't try but they often can't explain it.

What I think is most important is equal respect for everyone, at least until they open their mouth. :D
 
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#12
I haven't really developed any ethical principles. To me, 'crossing the line' means making false or illogical claims in an argument. As soon as I hear something illogical, I will firmly indicate where I stand and why the other person's claim is false. I usually don't get personlly offended in arguments. I just feel a need to establish truth and logic in all discussions that I have.
 

Philosophyking87

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#13
Shoot, I'm not even sure what my "principles" would be. :confused:

I can imagine my reaction, though. Surgical amputation. If you've somehow managed to violate a principle so ingrained in humanity that I can't even think of what it is, you're gonna get cut off.
This rings very true for me.

When someone does something that truly violates my understanding of proper action, I either swiftly point out the errors or I completely avoid the person (and sometimes both).

If the person is a friend:

~ I may give them a chance, but if I am not satisfied, I will completely sever them -- no questions asked.

If the person is not a friend:

~ I will resort to castigation, condemn the actions taken against me (or to others), and then I usually avoid the person as much as possible. A person with no respect for basic principles deserves no respect in return.

Overall, this turns out to cause lots of social problems for me. I've cut off about two or three friends I knew for years so far. It wasn't hard, as their actions and behavior justify separation. But even for people I have no been great friends with, I often find that most people naturally violate my principles left and right, so that I usually avoid a very large list of people. As a result, I tend to see most other humans in a very bad light, which has led to a case of misanthropy.

And yeah, I'm also not entirely sure what my "principles" are. I just know when some serious violation has occurred, and I inflexibly take very strong actions against the perpetrator (i.e., I never speak to them again).

In my recent past, I've just cut off one of my best friends (within the last two months) and my sister and her husband (due to a gross violation of my personal sense of dignity). My facebook was filled with statements such as "Principles lie at the core of my being; they dictate everything." lol
 
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#14
idk...

its kinda hard to point out my principles but I just know it when something is out of line.


well, if i think about it...


hm...

i suppose anything logical and for the better cause would be something i'd follow.


I have this strong belief of "A 'no' uttered in the outmost conviction is so much stronger than a 'yes' to just please a deaf ear."


edit:

I just thought of some aspects...

like, i was thinking about the things that I hate so i guess...



1. My trust is something that I will not hand out easily, If I give it to you and you lost it, you'll never get it back.

2. Do not lie to me, If you lie to me. There will be consequences.

3. If you're telling me a story regarding a certain incident, I expect to hear the full story.

4. If you want something from me, get to the point, i hate wasting time by playing mind games cause I will beat you no matter what you say or do.
so basically, what i want is "hello, I need this... because..."

5. If you want to be my friend, don't exert an effort, I'll see through your intentions easily so if you try too hard, you'll push me away.

6. Let your mind rule over your heart, I hate people who follows what they "think" instead of what they "know."

7. I am a forgiving person but I also never forget.

8. I easily get along with anyone and I am understanding but be sensible and I will respect you for who you are.

9. Your emotions only matters to me if you put an intellectual thought behind it.


thats all i got atm...
 

travelnjones

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#15
Some of my principles are.

Don't violate my personal space.
Don't lie to me I will not to you.
Don't manipulate me I won't manipulate you
tell me the whole story I will to you.
Be trustworthy

basically I want people to treat me like a dog treats people, except dogs can violate my space. I like dogs more than most people.
 

Darby

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#16
Some of my principles are.

Don't violate my personal space.
Don't lie to me I will not to you.
Don't manipulate me I won't manipulate you
tell me the whole story I will to you.
Be trustworthy

basically I want people to treat me like a dog treats people, except dogs can violate my space. I like dogs more than most people.
Mine are very similar, however my family has awful personal space boundaries, and so I've learned to get over that...to an extent.

My biggest issues tend to be with personal honesty, and people trying to get me to do things that will make me feel like a liar.

My first gf made me really fucking mad after we were done (she came back months later and said she still loved me and was a complete and total liar because we had gone back and forth for a year) and I did not speak kindly to her in any way. A mutual friend told me I should apologize, and I told her I wouldn't until I was actually sorry. 3 and a half years later I finally did it, but I wasn't about to apologize until then, and I lost the mutual friend in the process for trying to push me into something I felt was totally dishonest.
 

Wasp

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#17
I'm not entirely conscious of my principles.
I just "know" when someone's crossed the line, and I become incredibly aggressive/inflexible.

It's as if my ethical understanding is done over time, so I'm never entirely aware of the specific underlying principles that rule my mind.

But I'm sure I have principles. I'm always quick to point out, in detail, why someone's actions are unacceptable.
Yeah this sounds like me most of the time. My principles are more like "guidelines" if anything. My biological mother rules the home with a theocratic iron fist and we are constantly at each others throats because of this. Religion has never been my favorite topic. I'd rather not have a self righteous minister breathing down my neck telling me what my morals should or what they shouldn't.
 

Vrecknidj

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#18
Some of my principles are.

Don't violate my personal space.
Don't lie to me I will not to you.
Don't manipulate me I won't manipulate you
tell me the whole story I will to you.
Be trustworthy

basically I want people to treat me like a dog treats people, except dogs can violate my space. I like dogs more than most people.
These are pretty good. I'm not a fan of people being in my space, or lying to me, or manipulating me.

But, things change. I have kids (they're young adults now, but they're still my kids), so, I'd add to the list.

1. Don't mess with my kids.
2. Don't mess with my wife.

And I think these deserve some consideration. The first, of course, is easy enough, this is a common "parent thing" (whether you choose to entirely drop it within the context of Darwinism or something is up to you, and I could debate the merits and demerits of that all day, but, that's irrelevant to the personal fact that it's an issue for me).

The second, though, requires a bit of explication.

People in serious relationships, really, truly, serious relationships, deserve to have the other person in that relationship serve as a champion. Not necessarily. Not because it's required by some authority, etc.

Just because we all need a champion sometimes.

Sometimes, the shit hits the fan, you have a string of ugliness, and having some other person stand by your side and tell everyone else to go to Hell while you're busy scraping your brains off the sidewalk is what you need.

Sometimes, that is, you have to put yourself between your loved one and the dragon. Sometimes you have to be more than you thought you could be and put yourself in a situation you'd really rather avoid. Sometimes you have to take on the world, just because the person you've committed yourself to needs you. Right then. Right there. Period.

And, that's that.

(The hard part, of course, comes when it's my wife who is attacking herself. But that's a story for another day. If you've ever been with an INFP, you know what I mean.)

Dave
 
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#19
I think we can rule out religious/ political indoctrination for most of you?

^That's not to say that it wasn't unsuccessfully attempted multiple times...
I define principles by beating an issue to death exhausting all other competing possibilities, and putting them into context regarding how they impact myself and the world around me in the present and future. If something makes sense, stands up to logical criticism, and benefits me, I value it strongly.

Any competing undemarcated principles simply haven't been fully fleshed out, they can't be equally logical unless they fit together into a shared idea.

Regarding the rights of others, it's a combination of logic and Fe, e.g. altruism is mutually beneficially plus it makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside. Regarding my own rights, I do what benefits me most with the understanding that indirect relationships exist (i.e. altruism).

When making choices, I prefer the choice that gives me the most choices.

Here's a quick list of values:

Waste not want not
You can be stupid (ignorant) but don't be an idiot (intellectually lazy asshole)
Don't brag unless you have real accomplishments to back yourself up
Altruism
Autonomy
The known is defined by complex systemic relationships
"Agnosticism"
Earning the acknowledgement by and respect of others is by far the greatest reward one can receive.
 
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#20
Just because we all need a champion sometimes.

Sometimes, the shit hits the fan, you have a string of ugliness, and having some other person stand by your side and tell everyone else to go to Hell while you're busy scraping your brains off the sidewalk is what you need.

Sometimes, that is, you have to put yourself between your loved one and the dragon. Sometimes you have to be more than you thought you could be and put yourself in a situation you'd really rather avoid. Sometimes you have to take on the world, just because the person you've committed yourself to needs you. Right then. Right there. Period.

And, that's that.

(The hard part, of course, comes when it's my wife who is attacking herself. But that's a story for another day. If you've ever been with an INFP, you know what I mean.)

Dave
That was great. But yeah, how do you step between the dragon and itself?

I think that I realized I love my girlfriend when my sense of outrage over being wronged began to extend to include her. That is to say that if somebody wrongs either of us I will become annoyed.

This is something I don't really feel towards other people (I don't have kids.) I feel sympathy for other people when they are having a hard time. I try to cheer up my friends when they're down. I generally wish the best for the people I like, and really for all people. But my sphere of... self preservation? ... only envelopes my girlfriend and I. Probably to a lesser extent my brother and parents.
 
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#21
Earning the acknowledgement by and respect of others is by far the greatest reward one can receive.
WHAT?!

Are you saying that you got to that
by beating an issue to death exhausting all other competing possibilities, and putting them into context regarding how they impact myself and the world around me in the present and future. If something makes sense, stands up to logical criticism
?
 
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#22
My only principle, the only thing that can make me mad is when people make illogical arguments or statements, or refuse to listen to sound logic. Especially when they do it knowingly. I guess I see F judgement as an obstacle to be overcome, and it drives me crazy when people do something that's based on F judgement when they know it's illogical.
 
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#23
My principles can be summarized by mixing two phrases:

one person's freedom ends where another's begins
live and let live
 

Philosophyking87

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#24
Some of my principles are.

Don't violate my personal space.
Don't lie to me I will not to you.
Don't manipulate me I won't manipulate you
tell me the whole story I will to you.
Be trustworthy

basically I want people to treat me like a dog treats people, except dogs can violate my space. I like dogs more than most people.
These sound like the sort of "unwritten" principles that tend to guide my judgment (as lies, manipulation, deception, invasion of privacy, and other similar violations are often the sort of actions to which I tend to react most largely).

Jeez... I think we owe it to ourselves to each take some time in our lives to slowly create some sort of personal list of the most significant principles we have (with examples). It would be great to actually consciously "know" exactly why someone has offended you, so perhaps people can be warned in advance, or at least we'd be able to better articulate what grave injustice we believe to have occurred (as I find that other people usually think we're just "over-reacting").


Yeah this sounds like me most of the time. My principles are more like "guidelines" if anything.
Interesting. Here's an awesome quote from Bruce Lee: "Obey with the principles without being bound by them." Most likely, Lee was an ISTP (which means he was also likely a highly principled Ti Dominant).

Sometimes I'm loose with my principles, applying them when there is actual justification for their application, while other times, I tend to apply them absolutely, regardless of the circumstances. But despite the fact that my principles aren't always "guidelines," I really do not tend to be consciously aware of them. They just seem "self-evident," in a sense. Like obvious common sense. [However, as we all know, our principles are usually never "obvious" to others, who seem to lack logical reasoning sometimes.]

My biological mother rules the home with a theocratic iron fist and we are constantly at each others throats because of this. Religion has never been my favorite topic. I'd rather not have a self righteous minister breathing down my neck telling me what my morals should or what they shouldn't.
How unfortunate. My mother was a Catholic, but she was very permissive and "live and let live" about her religious views (a parental characteristic for which I will always be grateful). Us INTPs need plenty of "intellectual freedom," room to skeptically criticize and question everything around us, such that we usually dislike constraints placed upon what we think or believe. Our own thoughts and beliefs are our most sacred possessions, and if someone has a problem with our own personal intellectual property, it's usually very stressful and conflicting for us. Again, I'm so glad I was given all the room in the world to think and believe whatever I wanted, so long as I left everyone else alone. Good luck with your situation. Hopefully you can move out eventually and find some mental solitude and privacy. =|


1. Don't mess with my kids.
Oh boy. I have a son, and I'm very serious about any actions people make around him. My sister basically had to deal with Joseph Stalin whenever he'd be over. I'd be on guard for any little mistreatment or negligence on anyone's part while he was in their care. And if any "accidents" occurred, I would have been very inflexible about dealing with the matter. The adults involved would likely get a very strict lecture. I become very outspoken, aggressive, and inflexible when my principles are violated, and this is definitely one of them.

I will negotiate everything else in life, and as such, I'm often very adaptable to almost everything. This all ends the moment someone crosses a very important boundary and acts without respect, consideration, or rational purpose. Then I will discontinue to negotiate and I will become absolutely uncooperative and stern. Once I'm convinced that a gross violation has occurred, nothing can convince me otherwise, as I become incredibly stubborn and serious.
 

Wasp

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#25
Interesting. Here's an awesome quote from Bruce Lee: "Obey with the principles without being bound by them." Most likely, Lee was an ISTP (which means he was also likely a highly principled Ti Dominant).

Sometimes I'm loose with my principles, applying them when there is actual justification for their application, while other times, I tend to apply them absolutely, regardless of the circumstances. But despite the fact that my principles aren't always "guidelines," I really do not tend to be consciously aware of them. They just seem "self-evident," in a sense. Like obvious common sense. [However, as we all know, our principles are usually never "obvious" to others, who seem to lack logical reasoning sometimes.]



How unfortunate. My mother was a Catholic, but she was very permissive and "live and let live" about her religious views (a parental characteristic for which I will always be grateful). Us INTPs need plenty of "intellectual freedom," room to skeptically criticize and question everything around us, such that we usually dislike constraints placed upon what we think or believe. Our own thoughts and beliefs are our most sacred possessions, and if someone has a problem with our own personal intellectual property, it's usually very stressful and conflicting for us. Again, I'm so glad I was given all the room in the world to think and believe whatever I wanted, so long as I left everyone else alone. Good luck with your situation. Hopefully you can move out eventually and find some mental solitude and privacy. =|




Oh boy. I have a son, and I'm very serious about any actions people make around him. My sister basically had to deal with Joseph Stalin whenever he'd be over. I'd be on guard for any little mistreatment or negligence on anyone's part while he was in their care. And if any "accidents" occurred, I would have been very inflexible about dealing with the matter. The adults involved would likely get a very strict lecture. I become very outspoken, aggressive, and inflexible when my principles are violated, and this is definitely one of them.

Thank you for your support. My biological mother is an ESFJ and I am a bookish INTP. Any book that she deems "obscene" is now allowed in the house. I remember once bringing home On the Origins of Species during my freshman year of highschool. The look on her face was pure disappointment. She made me purge my bookshelf (although I hid some) of "bad" books.


Your overprotectiveness with your son around other people, even with family members fits how I am with my five year old brother. He's an Aspie (Asperger's Syndrome), and I love him even though he stresses me out to the point where I want to cry. But Hell hath no fury than when I see my brother harmed.
 

Philosophyking87

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#26
Here's a nice quote that seems to fit this thread:

On occasion, however, they [INTPs] are unable to get over certain unpractical traits, and will then cause difficulties with their fanatical exactitude in details, or by everlastingly insisting on their pet principles in any discussion or practical undertaking. This makes co-operation with them in any large combine somewhat difficult. -- Van Der Hoops, "Conscious Orientation"
Again, I become fairly uncooperative when a principle is violated, or because I am so strongly adhering to some important principle.

Thank you for your support. My biological mother is an ESFJ and I am a bookish INTP. Any book that she deems "obscene" is now allowed in the house.
Yup. My older sister is an xSFJ (not entirely sure if she's extroverted or introverted), and she raised my younger brother from the age of about 14 to 18. He's an ENTP and drove her up with wall with his rebellious independence and lack of regard for rules. Oddly enough, he enjoyed reading a rather philosophical book known as "The Satanic Bible." She reacted to this book by having the home blessed by a priest. In fact, she was so "scared" she actually wouldn't go into his room before it was "sanctified." I thought she was a giant religious loony for this. What a superstitious freak!

At any rate, my sister was generally always complaining about anything she found "offensive" to her religious nature, and always seemed to be nagging about everything everyone did around her. I truly hated living with her (from about 16 to 18). In fact, I truly hate most ESFJs: they're eternal control freaks!

I remember once bringing home On the Origins of Species during my freshman year of highschool. The look on her face was pure disappointment. She made me purge my bookshelf (although I hid some) of "bad" books.
Yup. Anything relating to "philosophy," "science," or anything "non-Christian" seems to send these people up the wall. They are anti-intellectual and seem to see reason and knowledge as natural enemies to their entire world outlook. Again, they are repulsive control freaks with not even half a brain (most of the time). It's a shame anyone ever has to live with people like that.
 
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#28
WHAT?!

Are you saying that you got to that ?
Yes.

This is the abridged version without detailed mention of human capital, individual capital, game theory, etc. When people recognize you and associate you with something you're good at that benefits them or society, they willingly assign you value, with the key being willingly, i.e. they give you authority over them. Sustained authority is the result of mutual social symbiosis, sort of a Markovian-based social steady state.

This is contrasted by other rewards like money, i.e. labor, which is not always given willingly (i.e necessities cost money) and equates to power as opposed to authority. It essentially falls back on the altruism argument.

There are certainly issues involved in actually reaching that point, specifically with people recognizing the importance of a given role in society in the absence of adequate information, but the si ergo argument holds true (so far I suppose).

And of course having authority is beneficial*. That's the essence here.




Then I will discontinue to negotiate and I will become absolutely uncooperative and stern. Once I'm convinced that a gross violation has occurred, nothing can convince me otherwise, as I become incredibly stubborn and serious.
^*Also (and this is completely off the cuff), this is essentially what one avoids when one has authority. It's a way to avoid violating the principles of others.
 

Philosophyking87

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#29
Yeah, but INTPs don't make great authority figures anyway.
But I agree: such stern principles could lead to leadership problems.

But think of attorneys (also sometimes known as "advocates"): such strict principles of integrity may come in handy, as a staunch defense of a violated victim can be very beneficial.
 

JayRay

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#30
My ENFJ wife likes to poke at my principles when we get into arguments. I can tell now what they are because I get really angry (even explosively so) when I feel like they are being attacked.

- If I'm called "emotionless" or "lack empathy" I get angry. For me that attacks my character.
- If I am accused of "not understanding". I feel like I can grasp any concept objectively. This insults my intelligence.
- If I'm called lazy. Even if I have proof that I am more reliable and do more than she does. This insults my work ethics.
- If I feel like I'm being manipulated passive aggressively to change a decision I already made. Again, this I feel is an attack on my intelligence.
 
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#31
Yeah, but INTPs don't make great authority figures anyway.
But I agree: such stern principles could lead to leadership problems.

But think of attorneys (also sometimes known as "advocates"): such strict principles of integrity may come in handy, as a staunch defense of a violated victim can be very beneficial.

Understood. But also in the attorney example, they've been given the authority of society to defend the victim, provided the victim has actually been victimized. If compensation were authority-based, then the victim would be defended for free as well as the attorney, who would be compensated by society as opposed to the victim. Modernized !Kung San... of sorts.

This is the social definition of authority, as opposed to the standard one. In most cases standard "authority figures" actually possess a mix of both power and authority, which is why so many people rebel. In this sense an INTP can function as what is/was traditionally a shaman.
 
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#32
I'm so openminded as to only really respond vigorously when one's reasoning doesn't make sense — not when they do something.

But now that I've become an ethical naturalist and have the foundations of a moral science, I have stuff to stand up for! I can be decisive!
 

AmacdaTNPI

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#33
I've been wondering about this for a while. They say INTPs are easy-going until you violate one of their principles.
What are some of you guys' principles and how did you arrive of them in the absence of Fi?
I think we can rule out religious/ political indoctrination for most of you?
So, do you use Ti-Ne logic? If so, how do you demarcate the principles that you personally believe in from the equally logical principles that other people/society etc advocate? Do you use Fe (respect for the rights of others)????? If so, what do you do when it comes to your own rights?
the thing is, intps sit there and think and usually subconsiously form all there thoughts into a single priciple after long dwelling or pondering. so since it feels like intps work up all their thought into one simplified easy to navigate through principle that they make sure is absolutely correct unless prsenented with pure rational logic that usually comes from angles unseen by the intp. if not presented with extreme in depth logic, the intp can get very mad cause they feel like they pondered on the principles longer than anyone else
 
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#34
Generally, they are the result of self-criticism and reflection on the reality of one's position (that is, not being self-entitled), as well as being sensitive to the effects or the potential effects of what one's own actions have on one's self and others. They generally arise under conditions of solitude and can be just as easily forgotten under persistent "noisy" or distracting circumstances (so, for example, one might expect an overly-active population to be rather disrespectful). Said in another way, principles can be seen as counter measures to passions and impulses (however, they can also use these qualities as a footing, that is, be subordinate to passion).
 

Hadoblado

think again losers
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#35
I don't get bent out of shape over most things, but if it's repetitive or long term, I develop a sensitivity to it.

The question is not "does this violate my principles?"... Those tend to be violated routinely. It's not something I can avoid. The question is "is this person worth knowing much longer?", a large part of which is their expected chance to bring me down again.

People will be entitled, they will lie, they will be unconscientious, they'll manipulate, they'll waste your time with shit you don't care about, they'll disrespect and devalue you, they'll get wrapped up in stuff that seems childish. Is this crap that you put up worth what they bring to the table? For the friends I still have, it's a 'yes'. Others not so much.

When it's a mandatory interaction (work colleague, student in your class etc.), I'm very sensitive to what we're both getting out of our interaction. I'm used to carrying people, but if it costs me and they don't appreciate my efforts I'll be very reluctant to stick around.
 
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