INTP or "So-called"; Of what sort?

[Zero]

I was ready to take another leave of absence from this forum when something particular came up. Bear with me, as this is somewhat a personal muse, yet I do seek an answer

First, I feel there is good reason to address my concerns and conflict with whatever INTP is. I understand myself to be an INTP and I have for several years. That does not keep me from reflecting upon my life, from continually learning and from analysing other people, no matter what they say of themselves. There are times I feel a total stranger and alien to the people of this forum, as much as do with all other people. It is stressful, as I find no comfort and no kin among people.

That is not to say I've never found a comfort, which I will address in a moment.

Second is what brings this on. I will admit there are many factors. My own stress with people, regardless of their "so-called" type, is one of those factors. Though, I hardly let this bother me in the past. What good was it for me to relate to people, INTP or otherwise? I find too much flaw, I'm overly critical, cynical and analytical and don't mean to brag, for it often is a drain on happiness and I fall into illness of all kinds because of it.

There is something that must be clarified about the "sort of" INTP I am. You may skip this part if you please. This is how my personality plays out. The Introversion, I'm not an introvert to the point that I am shy. I'm quiet, I like to keep to myself, I don't feel energized among crowds, but if I were to really pinpoint an "I" in my INTP it would be Independent, not introverted. The intuition is both literal and "Jung" in my case as I have "gut feelings" that have been described as creepy and prophetic. In Jung's terms, my N manifests in my desire to discuss ideas, to discover and to think. "Thinking" is my strongest trait as far as can be told. It manifests in decision making, naturally, as well as demanding truth, but is usually cool about it. I do not know from this brief look why I demand clarity and specifics, sometimes examples. I like to tear down, rebuild and make connections that were apparently missed by others. Perceiving is quite a random expression. It tends to be the reason I make connections that people have not before, as, unlike a "J" (I suppose), I don't necessarily see patterns. But there are two reactions to my making connections: 1- The "Duh" reaction, in which I may have stated the obvious, but not mean the obvious as I assume people will follow the trail if given the push, but they stop at Duh. This is not an ideal way to communicate and it frustrates me. 2- The second reaction is recognition of whatever I proposed, because I've done so in a way that people understand. Which tends to be that I walk them through my logic.

I write of this issue with communication, as it is important to my desire to clarify and communicate with the outside world. I also have a desire to win, which I have not always acknowledged as it was discouraged in me at a young age.

Perhaps it is the development of my "Sensing" that I demand evidence and objective discussion/debate. I say all this, because I feel at times that I am not slightly different from other INTPs, but sharp and painfully. That is not to say we need to be clones, but there is no kin, as I wrote earlier.

SO, now on with has brought this upon me. I do find that I have a passionate side, perhaps a "Feeling" side, though I do not know. There is something, despite being an atheist, I find soul in. That is literature and I don't use that term lightly. That is not my slang for all reading material. By coincidence I've come to read the classic Dracula. For a long time I've said I should read Dracula, but have not. Literature has a way of creating a passion in me. I became excited about the book as I read it, even so I'm only halfway through it and too energized to read. It's an exciting book, I'm pleasantly surprised by it.

I wanted to discuss books and tried to with my parents, both of them are Sensing types and it's impossible to get the discussion I want from it. Though they read, they have no desire to ponder and it leaves me in despair and loneliness.

I hope some of you have read Dracula and recall it somewhat, as I'm going to talk about one of the characters. As is often the case, I relate to fictional characters more so than real people. In this book I relate most to Dr. Seward. At a recent point I was amused at how similar we were and I imagined myself in that same position I would've done exactly as he did. There is a scene in the book where Van Helsing has taken Seward to see the body of Lucy has disappeared from the coffin. Helsing is trying to get his past-student to understand what he's been leading to. That Lucy is an "Un-dead". Seward's immediate reaction is to argue and doubt that she is walking the night; her body has been removed instead. In the face of fear or something I would not want to believe that is exactly as I would react, that is, to rationalize it.

I would call Van Helsing an INTJ as he's been planning and in this game of chess with Dracula all along. But let's drop those labels for the time being. For those of you who've read the book, I want to know of the main characters who you related to, if anyone. I can say for sure that I'm like Seward.

Why is it I so easily relate to a character in a book than other people who are supposedly INTPs? I have so many frustrations with the lot of you. The poor arguments, the humor, this nostalgic highschool hierarchy, etc... I can only reason it's due to age, gender and perhaps a separation in culture. Though I suspect some wander around sporting INTP, as they would a logo for a team just because they saw one game and needed a coat. Is it not disappointing to a passionate fan to find the one sporting the logo was merely cold? It is not WRONG, but it is disappointing.

But perhaps I take wrath against a tender age or those far older than I am. I do feel a sort of general hate for this generation that has fallen through the cracks and refuses to grow up, climb our and/or discard their childish ways. I'm not saying all this generation, about a decade from my own age, is rotten, but I've met too many who are. I was just so careful as to be born when I would come of age at the turn of the century. But even those on the tail end of the "last" generation are not different from I. It seems a literal decade had become a problem. I could muse for a long time on what are these people of this particular generation and decade and why are they pitiful. Perhaps I feel this way about many in general, but then I find I relate to those who are a true generation away from me (approx. 20 yrs). And I relate to those who are within 3-4 years of my own age. So is it a matter of age that I don't find anyone I feel I truly relate too?

I don't dismiss that I could overly critical. "What is WRONG with this current generation?" I ask,, then there have been people who've asked that of every generation. As a matter of fact, we've seen it in literature enough. People are maddened by it. By this society of stupidity, no, by this stupid humanity. That, however, is a tangent.

This is what it comes down to and what disturbs me. I'm an INTP, but I feel distant. What is the point of this type? I can define beyond it, to say my muse is in humanity, in society and the development of crooked world. Nothing is new, nothing is disconnected. We're product of time, of times past, of the present and the community around us. I see the whole soul of humanity in nothing more clearly than literature. Dracula has reminded me of that, of my good reason for picking up formula fiction instead (so I don't see too clearly or become passionate over something lost). Dracula was created as a true monster in an era that was clearly between myth and science. The ignorance of science, the innocence of people and the themes that continue to plague us, we misjudge the past and we misjudge the present and the future for that matter.

This is the sort of INTP I am and does it make you question me? In respects to the big picture, it matters not. We are specks, but not that I despair to that, but to the fact that we forget and that so many people simply don't see it. They don't engage their minds; language they have to struggle with is just a bore. What a pity, I believe I'm living in the era that will see the death of literature and intelligence. We have knowledge, though we seem unable to use it.

How is it that so many of you fail? How is it that so many of your can't distinguish a personal attack and a subjective flame war from an objective, topic oriented debate? I won't lie and suggest that this rant, here, at the end, is an objective argument. I mean for every bit of my rage to strike you. This whole post should clearly be subjective. If you failed to notice, then you failed to understand.


What I'm asking for is an opinion. If "what of" was lost in my words, I will rephrase it here. Please try to refrain from quoting and replying to every bit of my post, as it is a waste of space and I'm rephrasing the questions for you here.

Why do you think you're an INTP and what sort would you say you are? What gives you passion?
In regards to Dracula, the question was, what character do you relate to?
Obviously, you may reply to whatever strikes your fancy. Though I may end up regretting posting upon a passionate whim.

 

[The Frood]

Sorry in advance.

Why is it I so easily relate to a character in a book than other people who are supposedly INTPs?

Possibly; When reading a book you have a situation that you can see quite clearly, and can then relate to decisions made, character’s mindset and such, You can in a sense BE the person in the book. Whereas on a forum, all you get is what people are typing, and an avatar. Not the best method to try and discover a person (a difficult thing at the best of times), especially since online, people can say things and act very differently than in Real life.

On the stupidity of my generation... You have a point. People are becoming soft, they have all that they need at their fingertips. (huge generalization I know) But not everyone! Just mostly everyone.
What gives me passion? (seemingly) Random swings of mood. If I am in a writing mood, I will go write. If I am in a drawing mood, I will go draw, etc... Following what stimulates and excites my mind at the time.

What type of INTP am I? My own I guess... Most of the things you said clicked within me (" I have so many frustrations with the lot of you. The poor arguments, the humor, this nostalgic highschool hierarchy, etc..." [the stupidity] especially, (sorry if I contribute to that) and the competition bit also) But not everything.

I think that deep within us INTP's (Or at least myself, but from my observations on the forum this seems to be a common sentiment, especially w/ you Zero) Is a desire, no a need to be different, to be aloof. We look out at the world and see Stupidity. Obviously, we are not apart of that. We look out and find a group of like minded individuals (a forum of INTP's for example), and while we see that we are similar to them, we still think "I am different, I am unique, I am Alone." It is difficult to be able to include oneself in anything. But, at the same time we have the human need to band together. These needs clash, and the constant tug of war between the two leads to problems. (wow, huge anti-climax)


I really hope that made sense...

Sorry Zero if I messed up your thread.

 

[Da Blob]

Zero, that post is extremely difficult to respond to. I have made an effort to simply respond to one or two points, just as an indication that i did read and reflect somewhat on your comments.


What may make you 'different' from many is your seemingly ongoing rage.* It was mentioned that a passion was discovered and even something akin to a soul. Both rage and passion have been described as "Fire". Fire can be a source of life-giving energy if contained but unleashed can be a very destructive force. It seems that you express vehemently your opinions, which is not a bad thing, but it is divergent from many others, whose comments reflect a more mellow or perhaps even, a more apathetic POV than your own.

I do not know who is INTP and who is not. I do not see how that matters. It is just one of many ways of categorizing unique individuals on the basis of some more or less arbitrary standard. I can be placed in dozens of different categories by different standards, whether I am proud or ashamed of any of these categorizations is just a matter of subjectivity, but my feelings do not matter. I think what does matter is that there are a number of us who have experienced being 'social outcasts' to one extent or another and therefore are tolerant of "anti-social' comments that outcasts like our Selves may make. and that we may have a 'shared perspective' on at least a few aspects of life. It is perhaps better to socialize with those one has little in common with, as opposed to those one has nothing in common with(?)

I have an image of this forum being like a barrel in an alley of some vast city. Where a group of homeless people gather around to warm their hands, share something and then move on to fulfill some type of personal quest or goal. I hope than when and if you leave, you will eventually return to tell us the tale of your adventures.

 

[Zero]

The Frood- You do not need to apologize. Ultimately, what I asked for was an opinion and you provided what I asked for. I think the point your bring up about the characters is interesting.

Da Blob- I see you're at some sort of loss. That makes two of us I suppose. I think your empathy is kind of odd or maybe it is sympathy. Regardless, it is a post I can learn from. Despite the difficulty of replying, I thank you for making the effort.

To be honest, I am hoping someday I do leave.

 

[BigApplePi]

Zero. I read your post last night but had to go out. It stuck me somehow -- you wish to find yourself. This is an issue for all INTPs if you will including me. More so than other personality types. By coincidence I saw Nosferatu http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nosferatu back in January but that may not be relevant.

Can you describe a little more of what this character "Seward" is like? If not, that's okay.

 

[warryer]

No label is ever going to be perfect. Its a description of a group of people with similar characteristics. I call myself an INTP because I fit the description, however I don't subscribe to it... as in I don't go read my horoscope in the morning and through out the day I go and try to make it come true- thereby "proving" astrology.

MBTI is a theory its not the rule. It can give you some insight but, it will never be perfect.

Where does my passion come from? I want to eliminate pain from myself and from humanity. Perhaps it is because I refuse to accept that the "real world" is exactly that. I see people around me are lost. I want to show them an alternate way of being. A view that is not based on the self but, on humanity as a whole.

Believe it or don't but you never leave high school. You will find gossip and drama everywhere.

 

[Vatroslav]

Zero, nothing to worry about... why leave the forum even if you're not an INTP? As some people here said, that is NOTHING but another way to categorize people, a way of exploring their characters and their psyche. I don't consider myself to BE an INTP, for example, for INTP is not a real thing, it is an image, a stereotype in which we more or less find similarities with ourselves. I consider that INTP is a pretty functional way to describe my general attributes and states and ways of behaving, of thinking and viewing the world. But, what the heck, there MUST be variations between the stereotype and yourself! It just has to be so... even amongst us, the INTP identified people, must be a vast variety. We can think of subtypes and subtypes of subtypes... but it is all imaginary, only a tool for describing general attributes.

For example, I play chess, I LOVE chess. Does that make me an INTJ? Is there a rule that says ' you're not an INTP if you play chess, because it not the game the INTP enjoys in'? INTP can be an average of all of your attributes, more or less correct average. INTP is a category, NOT yourself! There are less and more static attributes in ourselves, and, they do change through time. And it is good for them to change... they change between the extremes- the pendulum swings, and swings. For some of us some swings are shorter and some longer. It is the way it naturally has to be... you go to one extreme- the pendulum swings back. Action and reaction.

Or why would be bad for an INTP to discover his world of feelings? Our characteristic is not not-to-feel, but we don't express our feelings so visibly as others do. Then, I feel empathy too... why should that make me an INFP? My dominant function is still thinking one.

We should think about what happens when an INTP develops his inferior function... and, yes, that IS possible. Psyche is not static, it is dynamic. More dynamic then it looks like... Life is the game of chess...our personality is a pawn... it can be a king though... but who is the player? Shall we play the game, or let the game play us?

 

[Enne]

On the INTP bit, the INTP subtype is one that has a preference for the Jungian functions of the order Ti,Ne,Si,Fe. To me, that says nothing about a type, a hobby, a group or whatnot that need fit it. The subtype's binding power appears to be happiest as an author of worlds and initiator of systems.


If there's something that you seek that you cannot find on the forums, why keep visiting them? If there's something in the world outside that you have yet to see, why not create it? The people you encounter, the exchanges you want, the sense of self that you'd like to realize or strip yourself of, why not seek out the conditions to find this? You voice your ability frequently, so have the confidence to use it. If you can't, then you're not nearly as smart as you think you are. ;-)

 

[pjoa09]

Naive Post:

Gotta get yourself out there. Get uncomfortable.

 

[Trebuchet]

Your post seems to show a lot of struggling in your life. You ask what is the purpose of INTPs and I think it might actually be to struggle with hard questions, including science, philosophy, and social structure. We don't take things for granted, or at face value. We aren't smugly certain of our facts. I think societies do better when they have someone questioning them from within. Most people probably should go along and not question too much, because then you get anarchy or discord. But if someone doesn't take a hard look now and then, you miss warning signs and failures. Of course such people aren't popular. And of course such people don't relate that well to everyone else. We still matter.

<end overgeneralizing>

Why do you think you're an INTP and what sort would you say you are? What gives you passion?
In regards to Dracula, the question was, what character do you relate to?

I think I'm an INTP because I am good at logic and I try to understand the world by making models of it in my head - models of people, processes, societies, whatever. I'm not impressed by appeals to authority, and I work well independently. I get things done without a to-do list. INTP is a good description of my approach to the world.

What sort am I? I'd have to say contented. I've done all the struggling you describe, and while I still struggle with the important questions, and always will, I am generally satisfied with who I am. It took years, some of them painful. It was all worth it.

I am also an industrious INTP. I read a lot on this forum about how people are lazy and procrastinate, have no follow-through, etc. That isn't me. While I enjoy taking a few minutes to post something here, or surf the web, mostly I have a lot of things I am responsible for doing, and I work very hard to get them done on time, correctly.

And I am an adaptable INTP. I'm not particularly good at social skills, and I don't really enjoy them, but I do them, the best I can, and try to improve. People who say they are not good at social skills, with the implication that they can therefore avoid learning them, are not making sense. To me it is the same as saying, "I'm just not good at math, so I shouldn't have to do it."

Passion for me comes from having analyzed and debated and researched until I found the things that were important to me, and where I stood on those issues. I am passionate about the people I love, and will do whatever it takes to maintain the relationships and support my favorite people. I am passionate about education, especially in science and math, and I very much want to see it done better in the US where I live. I am passionate about my society, which I want to see improved (according to my own vision, naturally) and I work to make that more likely.

I haven't read Dracula in far too long to remember the characters that well.

 

[Mary]

I think I understand what you're saying. I always wanted to be understood, completely and totaly understood by somebody. For me, I've found that person in God. I'm not saying that you should believe in god, as you said, you're an atheist, but everyone tends to find someone who they understand and bond with them. The person doesn't have to be 'real' - they can be imaginary or a character in a book or what have you. The important thing is to understand yourself by understanding them. I'm not sure what I'm saying makes sense; I have a habit of speaking in fluffy misunderstandings. I hope it helps though.

 

[Moocow]

You could also just accept that you're alone in the universe and no matter how hard you try, no one is ever going to be able understand you. It isn't cynicism because it's true, we're all subjective.
So why place so much importance on being understood?

 

[BigApplePi]

I think I understand what you're saying. I always wanted to be understood, completely and totaly understood by somebody. For me, I've found that person in God. I'm not saying that you should believe in god, as you said, you're an atheist, but everyone tends to find someone who they understand and bond with them. The person doesn't have to be 'real' - they can be imaginary or a character in a book or what have you. The important thing is to understand yourself by understanding them. I'm not sure what I'm saying makes sense; I have a habit of speaking in fluffy misunderstandings. I hope it helps though.

Mary. On a lesser note than God, think of a diary. A diary is a projection of oneself to something external that creates oneself outside of oneself. It's an attempt to get an external self to understand oneself.

 

[BigApplePi]

You could also just accept that you're alone in the universe and no matter how hard you try, no one is ever going to be able understand you. It isn't cynicism because it's true, we're all subjective.
So why place so much importance on being understood?

Moocow. Umm. Why be understood? I guess it's not important until I try to make contact. As an INTP I'm not out to become a social spectacle but at some point I do make contact. Like here where making errors are not a disaster. It helps to be understood in case there is a continuance.

 

[Moocow]

Moocow. Umm. Why be understood? I guess it's not important until I try to make contact. As an INTP I'm not out to become a social spectacle but at some point I do make contact. Like here where making errors are not a disaster. It helps to be understood in case there is a continuance.

Being "understood" in the context of this topic isn't the same as simply communicating clearly.

I see a lot of it on this forum. I mean trying to establish some kind of identity and being recognized for it- we all do it.
But personally I don't think it matters if people understand you or not. If you can simply be yourself in public or a social setting, someone will find you interesting regardless, or otherwise be drawn to your self confidence.

There's so many posts like the OP, just people trying to explain themselves. If you feel it so necessary to tell the world "I am this and I am that," who are you really trying to convince? Are you hoping that if we approbate you, you can rest assured that you're an acceptable person?

You know, being understood doesn't really mean anything. Someone can learn about your past, or they can learn about how you think, but none of that is going to satisfy the need to be accepted or understood for who you are. That's something you've got to find and resolve within yourself, regardless of where you are or who you're with.

Otherwise you're still just trying to find yourself through other people, and that just doesn't make sense.

 

[BigApplePi]

Being "understood" in the context of this topic isn't the same as simply communicating clearly.

I see a lot of it on this forum. I mean trying to establish some kind of identity and being recognized for it- we all do it.
But personally I don't think it matters if people understand you or not. If you can simply be yourself in public or a social setting, someone will find you interesting regardless, or otherwise be drawn to your self confidence.

There's so many posts like the OP, just people trying to explain themselves. If you feel it so necessary to tell the world "I am this and I am that," who are you really trying to convince? Are you hoping that if we approbate you, you can rest assured that you're an acceptable person?

You know, being understood doesn't really mean anything. Someone can learn about your past, or they can learn about how you think, but none of that is going to satisfy the need to be accepted or understood for who you are. That's something you've got to find and resolve within yourself, regardless of where you are or who you're with.

Otherwise you're still just trying to find yourself through other people, and that just doesn't make sense.

Yes the OP among other things. Being understood versus communicating clearly? How far are these things to go? Maybe we want to say SOMETHING -- ANYTHING to make contact just to make sure we are not alone. Do you think this forum is a diary? No it is not. We don't have to be understood to make contact, but making contact means SOMETHING was understood. That is SOMETHING better than NOTHING.

Yet certainly contact isn't the whole picture. There is SELF-understanding. Everytime I post something I believe I'm getting either a little closer to self-understanding or facing the limits of that self-understanding. If you can help me along that path why wouldn't I be grateful. I am. Self-understanding or understanding something I (me) is interested in helps me along the road to my identity. What I take in is who I am.

The more one is oneself the better the communication. If one mis-represents oneself (and this can happen), one gets the wrong feedback. The feedback goes to the not-self. One might learn something from that but for me it won't appeal to my intuition. Do I make any sense?

Maybe you, Moocow, are talking about the BIG understanding -- the ALL of the person. That is not possible. Yet one can get to know someone better.

 

[Moocow]

Yes the OP among other things. Being understood versus communicating clearly? How far are these things to go? Maybe we want to say SOMETHING -- ANYTHING to make contact just to make sure we are not alone. Do you think this forum is a diary? No it is not. We don't have to be understood to make contact, but making contact means SOMETHING was understood. That is SOMETHING better than NOTHING.

Yet certainly contact isn't the whole picture. There is SELF-understanding. Everytime I post something I believe I'm getting either a little closer to self-understanding or facing the limits of that self-understanding. If you can help me along that path why wouldn't I be grateful. I am. Self-understanding or understanding something I (me) is interested in helps me along the road to my identity. What I take in is who I am.

The more one is oneself the better the communication. If one mis-represents oneself (and this can happen), one gets the wrong feedback. The feedback goes to the not-self. One might learn something from that but for me it won't appeal to my intuition. Do I make any sense?

Maybe you, Moocow, are talking about the BIG understanding -- the ALL of the person. That is not possible. Yet one can get to know someone better.

Yeah, I understand what you're saying. I should clarify also that the post wasn't specifically to you, but my response to the overall impression this thread, as well as others have given me.

It seems to me though that the purpose of threads like this are to feel understood on a larger scale than simply making contact, and that's exactly what I'm pointing at.

Another example would be lyre/XIII or whatever his/her name is now trying to use the English language in some unique way to express her individuality, and ending up feeling even more misunderstood because no one cares to make sense of ridiculously convoluted language.

The irony of my previous post is that I do feel somewhat like I posted it to convince myself, as with making any bold declarations.

 

[ashitaria]

Why do you think you're an INTP and what sort would you say you are? What gives you passion?
In regards to Dracula, the question was, what character do you relate to?
Obviously, you may reply to whatever strikes your fancy. Though I may end up regretting posting upon a passionate whim.

One of the reasons why I think I'm an INTP is because I relate to the people of this forum, and the traits of an INTP very well, or, if I'm being pestimissitc, at least 60% of the time. I also think I'm who I am, I mean, the MBTI is just a way of seperating people into different types as a means to have successful communication with them- like knowing what to say to them and what not.

There are times though that I doubt I am an INTP, I sometimes think I'm more of an ENTP, but it is really all relative.

And I've never really watched dracula, so I don't know how to answer that question. -_-

 

[Mary]

Mary. On a lesser note than God, think of a diary. A diary is a projection of oneself to something external that creates oneself outside of oneself. It's an attempt to get an external self to understand oneself.

Yeah, that would also make sense. I feel may of the people who are INTP are seeking an understanding of everything, and understanding oneself is very difficult. Having somone else understand you can make everything considerably less harder.

 

[BigApplePi]

Yeah, I understand what you're saying. I should clarify also that the post wasn't specifically to you, but my response to the overall impression this thread, as well as others have given me.

It seems to me though that the purpose of threads like this are to feel understood on a larger scale than simply making contact, and that's exactly what I'm pointing at.

Another example would be lyre/XIII or whatever his/her name is now trying to use the English language in some unique way to express her individuality, and ending up feeling even more misunderstood because no one cares to make sense of ridiculously convoluted language.

The irony of my previous post is that I do feel somewhat like I posted it to convince myself, as with making any bold declarations.

Good move. I'm glad you made your post as it clarifies.

I remember Lyra and was excited by her unusual posts. (She has taken a leave of absence but I hope returns.) She was an unusual person and had the conflict between expressing her "art" and explaining it. That's why she ran into some trouble but I saw her work some things out. My impression is she was studying these characters and then role playing them. That threw people for loops if they didn't know she was doing that. How were we to know who these characters were anyway? It was up to us to feel them out.

 

[Mary]

Being "understood" in the context of this topic isn't the same as simply communicating clearly.

I see a lot of it on this forum. I mean trying to establish some kind of identity and being recognized for it- we all do it.
But personally I don't think it matters if people understand you or not. If you can simply be yourself in public or a social setting, someone will find you interesting regardless, or otherwise be drawn to your self confidence.

There's so many posts like the OP, just people trying to explain themselves. If you feel it so necessary to tell the world "I am this and I am that," who are you really trying to convince? Are you hoping that if we approbate you, you can rest assured that you're an acceptable person?

You know, being understood doesn't really mean anything. Someone can learn about your past, or they can learn about how you think, but none of that is going to satisfy the need to be accepted or understood for who you are. That's something you've got to find and resolve within yourself, regardless of where you are or who you're with.

Otherwise you're still just trying to find yourself through other people, and that just doesn't make sense.

I'm not trying to have other people define me; I'm just tired of being unknown. I understand people, and I like to be understood, on a deeper level than communication. I'm not looking for acceptance or reassurance, I just want.. Well, I'm not entirely sure how to put it. I want to be able to bare my soul and to be not judged based on it. I don't want opinions or directions or people telling me to change; I want to be me and truly me, and by knowing someone knows who I am I feel more free. I'm not sure if that makes sense to you, but it's my view on life.

 

[BigApplePi]

Zero

Why do you think you're an INTP and what sort would you say you are? What gives you passion?
In regards to Dracula, the question was, what character do you relate to?

Obviously, you may reply to whatever strikes your fancy. Though I may end up regretting posting upon a passionate whim.

Zero I regret you are not here. In answer to your Q's

INTP --
I - my passion is for thinking (Ti), passive drama and lone sports(Si). Can't do that socially making me quite an introvert. I seem to be extroverted here (Ne) and am fond of all those I've met so far.
N - I'm after theory in blood and use sensual experiences only if they help clarify something general.
T - I already said I'm fond of thinking but have a poor memory if it means remembering (memorizing) something I don't understand. I regard feelings as bias and ignore them except for introverted pleasure or pain (Si) -- if that makes any sense.
P - I loath conscious choice if it means acknowledging bias. But I will stick with something possibly to the point of obsession if it means understanding something but drop it if I get stuck.

Not sure of the accuracy of the above yet experience tells me there's a lot of truth in it.

I've never understood Dracula and prefer Frankenstein but haven't thought about why.

Zero if you hadn't posted on a whim, you wouldn't have provided for so many who followed you. Good for you except you're not here.

 

[Moocow]

I'm not trying to have other people define me; I'm just tired of being unknown. I understand people, and I like to be understood, on a deeper level than communication. I'm not looking for acceptance or reassurance, I just want.. Well, I'm not entirely sure how to put it. I want to be able to bare my soul and to be not judged based on it. I don't want opinions or directions or people telling me to change; I want to be me and truly me, and by knowing someone knows who I am I feel more free. I'm not sure if that makes sense to you, but it's my view on life.

What's wrong with being unknown? If anything, doesn't being unknown permit you more freedom to be yourself? Do you really think that any of your efforts will make you LESS unknown?


"I want to be able to bare my soul and to be not judged based on it."
That's tough. Everyone is going to judge all the time. Maybe the people worth getting to know are the ones that reserve judgments?

There's a little problem that I see with all of this. I think the harder you try to define yourself for other people, the less room for flexibility you leave. If you have no room for flexibility, you have much less room for change or growth... natural, essential parts of being yourself. So isn't trying to define yourself a bit counterproductive to actually BEING yourself?

Good move. I'm glad you made your post as it clarifies.

I remember Lyra and was excited by her unusual posts. (She has taken a leave of absence but I hope returns.) She was an unusual person and had the conflict between expressing her "art" and explaining it. That's why she ran into some trouble but I saw her work some things out. My impression is she was studying these characters and then role playing them. That threw people for loops if they didn't know she was doing that. How were we to know who these characters were anyway? It was up to us to feel them out.

Well, it is of my opinion that if art requires so much explanation to be appreciated, it has missed the point in being "art."

The same thing sort of applies for personalities.

 

[BigApplePi]

Originally Posted by BigApplePi

Good move. I'm glad you made your post as it clarifies.

I remember Lyra and was excited by her unusual posts. (She has taken a leave of absence but I hope returns.) She was an unusual person and had the conflict between expressing her "art" and explaining it. That's why she ran into some trouble but I saw her work some things out. My impression is she was studying these characters and then role playing them. That threw people for loops if they didn't know she was doing that. How were we to know who these characters were anyway? It was up to us to feel them out.

Moocow.

Well, it is of my opinion that if art requires so much explanation to be appreciated, it has missed the point in being "art."

The same thing sort of applies for personalities.

Wait a minute. Now I don't understand you. I thought you didn't value being understood. So here is Lyra presenting her art. So why should she care if some took it as art and some didn't?

 

[Moocow]

Originally Posted by BigApplePi
Moocow. Wait a minute. Now I don't understand you. I thought you didn't value being understood. So here is Lyra presenting her art. So why should she care if some took it as art and some didn't?

Indeed, why should she? The whole act seems a bit unnecessary to me.

 

[BigApplePi]

Indeed, why should she? The whole act seems a bit unnecessary to me.

Huh? You mean it was unnecessary for her to practice her art? Why does anyone practice art? Answer: Self-expression. If someone appreciates it so much the better. The audience doesn't have to like it.

 

[Moocow]

Huh? You mean it was unnecessary for her to practice her art? Why does anyone practice art? Answer: Self-expression. If someone appreciates it so much the better. The audience doesn't have to like it.

Well it certainly seem to upset her when some of us didn't understand whatever she was trying to do. Why is that necessary?

 

[Zero]

Thank you all for replying and participating. From this I will be able to analyze a great deal and hopeful think of new things.

I'm only replying to those posts direct towards my posts.

BigApplePi- Yes, re-evaluating one's self is a constant struggle, but a necessary one to our person-hood. Anyway, I cannot explain what sort of person Seward is. My words would be bias and misleading. I wish it could be any character from any literature, but my limited knowledge wouldn't allow me to understand. I picked this specific example because Dracula is a classic and the current vampire fad may have brought it to the surface again. The chances of it having been read is higher than some others and it was only "if by chance". I certainly don't require that anyone make an extra effort to understand Seward's character in order to answer this thread. You do read? What character, of any book, do you relate to? Despite a slim chance of me knowing them, there is the chance.

warryer- Indeed, the MBTI is a limited system for self-improvement. As a matter of fact I ended up finding my Strengths Finder (2.0), evaluation closer to the sort of person I am. Though I questioned it upon the results. I do use MBTI as a basis, as neurologist have even referred to Jung's Sensing/Intuition.

Despite my disbelief in horoscope, I'm very much like mine. To a point that it's been guessed. It's kind of odd.

Horoscope, Tarot, Palm reading, numerology (is it?), I've referred to all of these and the actual trait theories for self-evaluation. I suppose I've come to the conclusion of a skeptic, if not a cynic, none of them are right. Our understanding of self and how we work is defined by groups. I think my stress comes from not being able to define what I can and can't do and what my place is in a group. My place is always something I've struggled with. It seems that, unlike most people, I want to fit into a single slot. I want to be limited to something, to have some kind of place.

I find your passion interesting insight. It's wondrous to me that there are so many humanitarians among INTPs. My overview of humanity is pessimistic, to the point of sickness at times. I want things to work. But I have no care or desire about humanity from a strictly humanitarian POV or maybe from a positive POV?

I can't recall where now, but the addressing of Optimist verse Pessimist has probably brought a lot of light to me as an individual. I recall having a pessimistic attitude, even when I was in elementary or middle school. We took an evaluation of sorts and I recall my outlook being mostly pessimistic. I think Pessimism may lead to Narcissism, but I've gone on long enough with this tangent.

Vatoslav- Correct me if I'm wrong, but thank you for your sympathy (?). I understand that humans are dynamic and that setting ourselves in an exact category is impossible. As I explained previously, this is a strain to me. I want to be absolutely defined.

Pretend, if you will, that people are machines. I want to know the function of the machine, the exact function, so I know how to use. I view people know differently. I want to know what they are, so I know what they're useful/used for. I feel the same way about myself, towards this mind that is too dynamic perhaps. I envy those with a talent they can't avoid, but to live on. It's not that I would've have a dynamic society, but that I can't categorize and analyze people if they're erratic. Perhaps I'm above all a categorizer. My Strong Inventory said as much when Librarian was my top occupation, I think, by double any other. But how I dread this occupation, as it's been haunting me since childhood and I don't want to hear the "I told you so"s.

I also like Chess, though I suck at it... But chess isn't a tell as to whether or not someone is an NT. An ST could play chess just out of rivalry. It's the reason we do things, not always the things we do, that define us.

I express my feelings quite freely. Despite being somewhat quiet and independent, I think people know my motives. My P likes to lead me around IRL and I'm shocked that no one has died due to my carelessness and sudden inklings. I'm the sort of person, who in a daze (or otherwise bored or over thinking) has left this keyboard about five or so times in the midst of writing my replies. I never stop fidgeting. I don't know how I barely escape being ADD. I have a notion to go out and get more coffee, as I crave it and on any day at any time I would willingly follow thing craving like a zombie. But it is already too late to get expresso. My mind unbraids, you have no idea how hard it is for me to just focus on this post...

Enne- I suppose I agree. Though I know not what abilities I brag of. Rather I seem to suffer them. I'm not smart and I would argue that point. I am Zero. I decided upon this name when the game of Tarot was among my favorites.

pjoa09- This says nothing.

Trebunchet- It is such a good thing I make confusing posts, because we reply to what we think we understand and make for some interesting replies.

I like how you answered the question and laid out the sort of INTP you are. There are ways we differentiate. I would take you for an optimist, but it's clear you're satisfied and have some measures and POVs to achieve this.

I am only satisfied in the fact that I know I'm restless. Though IRL this is not expressed. People think I'm patient, because when I see a situation in which I have no choice, I have no choice and follow accordingly. There is a part of myself, that may be a basis to my personality, I want everything to work, if not be entirely perfect. I also have very high expectations.

I think there is something that is a principle foundation to a person's personality. I don't know if this does change, but I think it's there. Maybe it's necessary to my satisfaction, my ability to be happy at all, that there is. Something that says, this is my essence, my call number. And then, I put you and everything, in your place, on one of the billions of shelves in the library in my mind.

Mary- Have I not met you? Welcome, if so. As for God, you know I'm an atheist, but I was not always. God didn't understand me. He gave me a mind to question, but not to question him? I was guilty, always guilty and confused by what God had given me, so I eventually said, I've been made to be Satan, as I question God and the dynamics of religion. I question the life of sin and Satan and there has been no satisfactory answer for me. But I don't think you're wrong. We seek someone, anyone, who relates to us, anyone we can cling to and say "This is a person who survived and thrived". Regardless if they are real.

How is it I survive? Perhaps you hit the nail on the head. Where is my answer? Where is the person I look up to? Relate to?

It's a shame it couldn't be God for me. My life would be simpler if it was. Jesus did show himself to Thomas, who doubted, perhaps there is hope for everyone? ...But for Judas...

Moocow- When people do not understand you, you suffer. I do not like to suffer. It is that simple. Some people kill plants. They fail to understand the plant. Plants do not protest, they simply die.

The body may protest, the mind may protest, but the soul simply dies.

ash- I'm surprised that you find yourself pessimistic, as I've seen you as optimistic. I suppose that says more about me than you.

Dracula the book, the 1897 book. The movies were "based" on and loosely. I know little to nothing of the movies myself and wouldn't trust them to be the same.

BigApplePi 2- I've been ill and stuck in bed as it were. Though thank you for providing the commentary, albeit rude. You could stand to have a life outside this forum, don't you think?

I only provide such whims for interest and I don't typically expect to get such a turn-out. Anyway, it seems you've done a great job of supervising the thread.

 

[Moocow]

What makes you so absolutely sure that not being understood has to invoke suffering? Is this written in a textbook somewhere? Did you just ignore my reasoning?

 

[Zero]

I Suffer.​

 

[BigApplePi]

Well it certainly seem to upset her when some of us didn't understand whatever she was trying to do. Why is that necessary?

Moocow I'm not going to pretend I understood her -- she sprung her thing on us and I got the impression some didn't like her but can't tell. When she got upset I asked myself, was she upset or was her character upset? My guess is it was a little of both. Maybe we need to call in Joseph Campbell to figure it all out. Waterstiller Joseph Campbell: The Power of...

 

[Zero]

I apologise that I was confusing. I was moved and got a little carried away. Just certain little things can move me so easily. It's embarrassing sometimes. I just get caught up. I didn't mean to "spring" it upon you, but if you felt this way you are free to ignore what I posted.

It doesn't seem to me that there is much left to this thread. As a matter of fact, was there much to begin with? Probably not.

 

[BigApplePi]

Zero. I am interested in where you are at. I am far from any psychologist expert who can give the right interpretation of where you are but I will give you my impressions. The subject matter you present is very profound -- who are we, where are we going and where are we now? You are searching for yourself and haven't found that yet. That is why you give yourself the "Zero" handle.

One answer to who one is is very specific -- something INTPs possibly don't like to think about. Who one is can be described: What one does everyday, who one contacts regularly, what one likes to do, what one's future plans are. Thinking is one thing, but those things provide a framework as well as input.

One thing appears clear to me -- the older one gets the more the answers to these are narrowed down. The younger one is, the more open are the possibilities and therefore the less one can say "this is me because I know where I'm going."

Frankenstein (the movie) come to my mind as a "person" (the monster that is) trying to find himself. Here was this guy was came into being and didn't know anything about the world. I'll tell just one story. He seemed to me to be an innocent but warm and friendly guy. But he was big and ugly. When ever he met someone they ran from him in fear. He didn't know why. One day he met a little girl. She completely accepted him. Then he accidentally killed her. This enraged the town's people and they went after him in revenge. He also had met a blind man. They had a good time eating and drinking together. Well after writing this I guess I haven't made any strong point. I'll leave it.

Let me take your post and see what we can find.

BigApplePi- Yes, re-evaluating one's self is a constant struggle, but a necessary one to our person-hood. Anyway, I cannot explain what sort of person Seward is. My words would be bias and misleading. I wish it could be any character from any literature, but my limited knowledge wouldn't allow me to understand. I picked this specific example because Dracula is a classic and the current vampire fad may have brought it to the surface again. The chances of it having been read is higher than some others and it was only "if by chance". I certainly don't require that anyone make an extra effort to understand Seward's character in order to answer this thread. You do read? What character, of any book, do you relate to? Despite a slim chance of me knowing them, there is the chance.

Maybe later you can find another character to describe. Let me tell you are story I read in college a long time ago. It was called, "The 80 yard run." It was about a hero football player who gained great fame one day making that run and winning the game. A hero. He knew who he was. He was happy. But the story went on to tell that was the high point of his life. He went downhill after that probably losing his job, estranged from his family, his former fame long forgotten and now worthless. That's an ISFJ for ya. That can lose themselves. INTPs have nothing to lose and everything to gain. I'd rather be a person struggling to find himself than a person who thought he knew just who he was only to lose himself.

Despite my disbelief in horoscope, I'm very much like mine. To a point that it's been guessed. It's kind of odd.

Horoscope, Tarot, Palm reading, numerology (is it?), I've referred to all of these and the actual trait theories for self-evaluation. I suppose I've come to the conclusion of a skeptic, if not a cynic, none of them are right.

Those things present character traits and events I understand. Their purpose is to score a hit somewhere. They will draw ourselves out with some things and we can discard the rest. They are good for that reason but are random as a whole.

Our understanding of self and how we work is defined by groups. I think my stress comes from not being able to define what I can and can't do and what my place is in a group. My place is always something I've struggled with. It seems that, unlike most people, I want to fit into a single slot. I want to be limited to something, to have some kind of place.

Exactly. Even though INTPs are introverts, they still must live in the world. Some groups will appeal to us and some not. It takes trying out various kinds to see what we will like -- unless we are like J.D.Salindger who wanted to escape everyone (we don't know that for sure).

I find your passion interesting insight. It's wondrous to me that there are so many humanitarians among INTPs. My overview of humanity is pessimistic, to the point of sickness at times. I want things to work. But I have no care or desire about humanity from a strictly humanitarian POV or maybe from a positive POV?

People in the healthcare professions work to overcome this. If things look down one is going to feel pessimistic. If things look up one is going to feel optimistic.

I think Pessimism may lead to Narcissism, but I've gone on long enough with this tangent.

Sure it could, so one has to look (go) outside themselves and avoid narcissism.

Pretend, if you will, that people are machines. I want to know the function of the machine, the exact function, so I know how to use. I view people know differently. I want to know what they are, so I know what they're useful/used for. I feel the same way about myself, towards this mind that is too dynamic perhaps. I envy those with a talent they can't avoid, but to live on. It's not that I would've have a dynamic society, but that I can't categorize and analyze people if they're erratic. Perhaps I'm above all a categorizer. My Strong Inventory said as much when Librarian was my top occupation, I think, by double any other. But how I dread this occupation, as it's been haunting me since childhood and I don't want to hear the "I told you so"s.

I don't understand this paragraph. You were favored to be a librarian? What's wrong with being one? You are more ambitious or less ambitious?

I also like Chess, though I suck at it... But chess isn't a tell as to whether or not someone is an NT. An ST could play chess just out of rivalry. It's the reason we do things, not always the things we do, that define us.

I suck too. I always had to look at position and could never form an attack before the other guy attacked me.

I express my feelings quite freely. Despite being somewhat quiet and independent, I think people know my motives. My P likes to lead me around IRL and I'm shocked that no one has died due to my carelessness and sudden inklings. I'm the sort of person, who in a daze (or otherwise bored or over thinking) has left this keyboard about five or so times in the midst of writing my replies. I never stop fidgeting. I don't know how I barely escape being ADD. I have a notion to go out and get more coffee, as I crave it and on any day at any time I would willingly follow thing craving like a zombie. But it is already too late to get expresso. My mind unbraids, you have no idea how hard it is for me to just focus on this post...

I gave up coffee and went through headache caffeine withdrawal. I'm glad as I didn't want to be a slave to caffeine. Water, juices, milk are fine with me.

I am only satisfied in the fact that I know I'm restless. Though IRL this is not expressed. People think I'm patient, because when I see a situation in which I have no choice, I have no choice and follow accordingly. There is a part of myself, that may be a basis to my personality, I want everything to work, if not be entirely perfect. I also have very high expectations.

You have all that energy. Needs a good outlet. As an INTP why not consider the possibilities? About being perfect. Some things have to work right -- like a parachute. But people don't have to be perfect. I think trying to be perfect is a defence against being found fault with. Other people can find fault with me if they want. That is their privilege. But for me, I have learned mistakes are natural. I don't care if I make mistakes -- unless they cause damage.----

I think there is something that is a principle foundation to a person's personality. I don't know if this does change, but I think it's there. Maybe it's necessary to my satisfaction, my ability to be happy at all, that there is. Something that says, this is my essence, my call number. And then, I put you and everything, in your place, on one of the billions of shelves in the library in my mind.

Sure but that is pretty vague. You haven't settled in. I've learned I am an INTP but it took me many years to settle in. I think; I feel; I sense. There are specific things and there are general things but I don't have to firm them up.

It's a shame it couldn't be God for me. My life would be simpler if it was. Jesus did show himself to Thomas, who doubted, perhaps there is hope for everyone? ...But for Judas...

Religion - what is the ultimate situation? - is of interest for us, but that isn't all there is to life.

The body may protest, the mind may protest, but the soul simply dies.

Bad things happen, but all this can be overcome.

BigApplePi 2- I've been ill and stuck in bed as it were. Though thank you for providing the commentary, albeit rude.

I hope you feel better soon. I was rude? Tell me about it!

You could stand to have a life outside this forum, don't you think?

I have lots of life outside this forum and have time as I retired from work. I'm getting a big kick from this forum and possibly go at it too heavily. I've subscribed to every thread I comment on and now there are so many I think I've screwed the programming. I'm unable to see the "New Thread" button so can't start a new thread. If anything I have way too many things going at once. There is a pile of books over there unfinished, many hours of video I haven't watched and to many meetingsto go to I have to cancel.

You need a place for your energy. I took up running fifteen or so years ago and keep records. I run only on the 1.7 mile loop three times per week. Some here in NYC run marathons. I wouldn't train for that.

I only provide such whims for interest and I don't typically expect to get such a turn-out. Anyway, it seems you've done a great job of supervising the thread.

Okay. Let us know if you are feeling better. That's not INTP but why not bring out the shadow function? Just a thought.

 

[BigApplePi]

It doesn't seem to me that there is much left to this thread. As a matter of fact, was there much to begin with? Probably not.

I hadn't read that until I posted that long one at 1043a EST. You are right. You are pessimistic. But it is unwarranted!

 

[Mary]

Mary- Have I not met you? Welcome, if so. As for God, you know I'm an atheist, but I was not always. God didn't understand me. He gave me a mind to question, but not to question him? I was guilty, always guilty and confused by what God had given me, so I eventually said, I've been made to be Satan, as I question God and the dynamics of religion. I question the life of sin and Satan and there has been no satisfactory answer for me. But I don't think you're wrong. We seek someone, anyone, who relates to us, anyone we can cling to and say "This is a person who survived and thrived". Regardless if they are real.

How is it I survive? Perhaps you hit the nail on the head. Where is my answer? Where is the person I look up to? Relate to?

It's a shame it couldn't be God for me. My life would be simpler if it was. Jesus did show himself to Thomas, who doubted, perhaps there is hope for everyone? ...But for Judas...

Ahahaha yup, I'm new here.

I question God all the time; I ask, 'Why?' and I'm not sure how, but he always provides a sense of knowingness in my brain. I'm not sure how it works; I'm just assured that he knows and he will tell me soon enough. I'm not a religious person, in fact, I completely reject religion, as religion implies you have to be GOOD. I've accepted I can never possibly be good enough and that god loves me anyway, for some reason or another.

Judas killed himself before he had the chance to see Jesus rise from the dead-he deluded himself into believing he had no hope of salvation and by doing so he kinda made a self-fulfilling prophecy of doom. Thomas was just confused, and believed there may be a chance, and then God showed him there was.

As for your personal answer, I can only point to my own experiences and hope that you will one day find the peace I (ableit shakily) have.

 

[Zero]

BigApplePi, you are definitely correct on many things and most of them I agree with you about, so I don't have a lot to say. However, I do want to read Frankenstein someday. Also, the story you told is reminiscent of Billy Budd by Herman Melville. Billy is a sailor among sailors and the goodest man who could've been. But circumstances and jealousy tear him down unfairly. Melville wrote a lot of stories like that. My favorite being Bartleby. Most of the time I can't read Melville without notes, his writing is beyond me. And I'm a huge fan of Salinger and was sad to know he died recently.

My name is somewhat misleading. It was originally Zero: The Fool. It seemed like a long name and I cut it to Zero. Zero: The Fool refers to a Tarot card. This card means a sort of innocent or ignorant curiosity and discovery. It usually depicts a whimsical traveller, who's unaware of the ledge he's about to fall off. The card is a warning. It's as to say, you can enjoy your aimless curiosity, but don't become completely ignorant of the world around you. I've found the Tarot interesting, though I don't believe it, it's a fun game. Still, I felt that Zero describe me well. My horoscope is described as an optimistic, go-getter, so I have no idea how this "friend" guessed it. I think I'm born in one of the most common months, so the odds were probably in his favor.

My apologizes for being confusing. I believe I misunderstood your comment as being malicious. I often can't tell.

Thank you for taking an interested and replying patiently as you have. You've provided a lot to this thread, though I do feel I was wrong to make it on a whim and so messy.

Mary- Thank you for your blessings. I do hope to find peace someday, through whatever means I can accept. I think it's healthy that you've evaluated your faith and aren't bound to a dogma. If anything hurts people's faith it is "the religious". Well, I don't want to get too off topic on that.

 

[Beat Mango]

Of course as Jung said, the genius will be forever seeking a soothing explanation of himself, I can see that in you and a lot of INTPs... however, I feel that in hindsight the fascination with such labels was a mere phase I was going through. I skip the INTP/INFP/SiTeNeFof threads these days because I don't find them interesting, nor even all that relevant. This one of yours is a bit more interesting because you seem to be pouring your soul out. And good for you! Even though I've never got a very pleasant vibe from you. But really, would it be terribly simplistic to think that all the complexities and personalities of human beings can fit neatly into 8 categories. What sort of INTP are you? Does it matter? Does it matter what sort of ISFP Jack Kerouac was? Or what sort of INTJ Hunter S Thompson was? If that? Imagine if somebody said, don't bother reading On the Road, all you need to know is that Keroauc was an ISFP. Would that even come close to doing the book justice? It would be absurd. Yet people think that such a label can accurately depict a whole person! I love art, and like you, literature, because to me it captures the complexities and nuances of the human experience better than anything else. Better than real life, often, because it's amplified and deals with universal issues (or those of the collective unconscious, perhaps) rather than everyday ones. Maybe that's why you relate to fictional characters better than real life ones.

And on the astrology thing: I am a Scorpio, fit roughly into the description of that sign, but what's eerie is that I have an unusually disproportionate number of friends who are also Scorpios. And not just Scorpio, but born within about 10 days...

 

[BigApplePi]

BigApplePi, you are definitely correct on many things and most of them I agree with you about, so I don't have a lot to say. However, I do want to read Frankenstein someday. Also, the story you told is reminiscent of Billy Budd by Herman Melville. Billy is a sailor among sailors and the goodest man who could've been. But circumstances and jealousy tear him down unfairly. Melville wrote a lot of stories like that. My favorite being Bartleby. Most of the time I can't read Melville without notes, his writing is beyond me. And I'm a huge fan of Salinger and was sad to know he died recently.

My name is somewhat misleading. It was originally Zero: The Fool. It seemed like a long name and I cut it to Zero. Zero: The Fool refers to a Tarot card. This card means a sort of innocent or ignorant curiosity and discovery. It usually depicts a whimsical traveller, who's unaware of the ledge he's about to fall off. The card is a warning. It's as to say, you can enjoy your aimless curiosity, but don't become completely ignorant of the world around you. I've found the Tarot interesting, though I don't believe it, it's a fun game. Still, I felt that Zero describe me well. My horoscope is described as an optimistic, go-getter, so I have no idea how this "friend" guessed it. I think I'm born in one of the most common months, so the odds were probably in his favor.

My apologizes for being confusing. I believe I misunderstood your comment as being malicious. I often can't tell.

Thank you for taking an interested and replying patiently as you have. You've provided a lot to this thread, though I do feel I was wrong to make it on a whim and so messy.

Mary- Thank you for your blessings. I do hope to find peace someday, through whatever means I can accept. I think it's healthy that you've evaluated your faith and aren't bound to a dogma. If anything hurts people's faith it is "the religious". Well, I don't want to get too off topic on that.

Zero (note Banana Mango). Your stories seem so real to me I have to ask myself why. If others happen to have an interest in literature mine tend to go toward science but I presently can identify with you and I just realized it. I don't have to study science but my interest so draws me I fail to focus. Learning science requires taking a lot on faith and I get so upset with that it stops me from making progress. At some point I will have to drop intuitive understanding and take things on faith if I'm ever to get to the next step. You may not know what the heck I'm talking about but it may come out later.

I vaguely remember Melville's Billy Budd. Apparently goodness is not enough. There is evil in the world and if one is blindly so good they can't see evil around them then they will suffer the consequences of their naivety. This is an important lesson to learn if one is of that type. That's why it pays to have friends to run these things by. They may inadvertently warn you of something.

Tarot? I've yet to play that game. Sounds interesting.

 

[ijustprotectedmyidentity]

ima try out that book dracula

passion for me is learning all the subjects and being able to explain everything about the universe from the smallest atom to microscopic blood cells to city governments to state and federal governments and then the universe.

and art and the nature of beauty thats my goal to be a life long learner.

and of course learn about myself

Paranoia creeps in when i feel like neuro hard determinism is real ahahhaa

 

[ijustprotectedmyidentity]

btw frankenstein is a tragic book and kind of stupid because of the many things that the main characther could of done.

but frankenstein is a good book and the main characther is probably intp or intj

romanticism!! and the words are easy to read/elegant hows that dracula book ima check that out

i hate when u read books and sometimes u forget what happens. but the ending the words are very strong and potent

*spoiler*

like he talks about forever riding his slay thru the artic trying to find the monster for vengance. when he dreams he feels like its reality/ hes awake. when he lives he feels like its a nightmare. dont want to go off topic but can some1 discuss about frankenstein here

 

[BigApplePi]

btw frankenstein is a tragic book and kind of stupid because of the many things that the main characther could of done.

but frankenstein is a good book and the main characther is probably intp or intj

I can't quite recall but I heard a critique the book was something about uncontrolled science. Some people worship science. It doesn't deserve all that credit if it gets in the wrong hands. Look at nuclear bombs. That makes it a worthwhile book.