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INTP, INTJ, and all the love in between...

brandmaus

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Plenty of reference and preference for INTJ around here. Some think INTJ is a bettered INTP.

If its a one-letter-difference thing then why not so much love for ENTP, ISTP, INFP?
Is it a J appeal (P perceived as causing most problems in its combination with other traits)?
Is it that INTJ's considered to be "the Mastermind" and thus 'ultimate' type?
A combination?

By Socionics, compatibility for the two is 18%, and labeled as Quasi-identical.
There is high resemblance - but what does it mean?
 

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Hadoblado

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The way I see it, the two types are two completely different ways of getting to similar values. It is a relationship based on both variety and synergy.
 

DIALECTIC

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The way i see it is :

The INTP uses an intelligence of adaptation (Ne): he is a tactician who goes with the flow, he adapts himself to the environment... He wants to idealize / optimize already existing systems. I picture the INTP as a recycling truck !

This quote by Schopenhauer represents our way of thinking: “Thus, the task is not so much to see what no one yet has seen, but to think what nobody yet has thought about that which everybody sees.”


The INTJ uses an intelligence of anticipation (Ni): he is a strategist who seeks the "master stroke", he adapts the environment to himself... He wants to materialize / concretize his own worldview / system... I picture the INTJ as a bulldozer (nothing will stop an INTJ when he sets his mind to a goal he believes in) !

This quote by Karl Marx represents, i think, the INTJ way of thinking:"The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it."
 

brandmaus

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Thanks, good replies.

DIALECTIC, I made a functions test and it appears my use of Ni is second to Ti, and then Te before Ne or Si - as an effect I got an INTJ second possibility. This confuses the INTJ-INTP stuff even more for me. Being a kid my main objective was to change the world, but I became gradually more interested into the process rather than the end-point (since it was taking too much time I guess?!).
 

WALKYRIA

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INTP's have an integrated view and understanding of the world(or even the universe ) . which makes us number one. INTJ have an integrated view of a big city. Which makes them number 3. ENTP come second to INTP, they are able to solve a country problems. SO, INTJ's arent even close to INTPs. The rest comes afterwards...

I realized that whenever I stop... and consciounsly limit my views to here and now and my job and my family etc.. I become INTJ and a bit more happy.
 

Wolf18

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I can't tell whether you're talking about INTp v INTj or INTP v INTJ. Socionics is pretty different from MBTI. Please specify, as you pose an interesting question.

SW
 

DIALECTIC

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DIALECTIC, I made a functions test and it appears my use of Ni is second to Ti,
Did you do it online ? If so where ? I haven't see individualized functions tests, i would like to know how my 4 "shadow" functions test...


and then Te before Ne or Si - as an effect I got an INTJ second possibility. This confuses the INTJ-INTP stuff even more for me.
INTPs are perceivers yet their 1st and 4th functions are Judging functions... INTJ's are judgers yet their 1st and 4th functions are Perceiving functions. I see strong duality in INTJ's / INTP's.


Being a kid my main objective was to change the world, but I became gradually more interested into the process rather than the end-point
Welcome to the club !
If you are more into the process (the potential) than the end-point (the future), you must score low on Ni ?
 

brandmaus

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Did you do it online ? If so where ?
Jungian functions test link: http://cognitivequiz.com/results.php

I see strong duality in INTJ's / INTP's.
That refers to my question in this post: what does that similarity breaks down to?

If you are more into the process (the potential) than the end-point (the future), you must score low on Ni ?
No, as I said my Ni is high enough to be second just after Ti.
 

brandmaus

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I can't tell whether you're talking about INTp v INTj or INTP v INTJ. Socionics is pretty different from MBTI. Please specify, as you pose an interesting question. SW
I don't have a huge MBTI knowledge so far, but I think I'm talking about INTP v INTJ more, though through an analysis a touch upon INTp v INTj might be evident as well. Yeah, I realized in Socionics the Intj functions are kind of switched with the Intp ones etc - what's up with that?! Is Socionics the original (or closer to that) Jungian theory on personality (and where MBTI stems from)?
 

EyeSeeCold

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I don't have a huge MBTI knowledge so far, but I think I'm talking about INTP v INTJ more, though through an analysis a touch upon INTp v INTj might be evident as well. Yeah, I realized in Socionics the Intj functions are kind of switched with the Intp ones etc - what's up with that?! Is Socionics the original (or closer to that) Jungian theory on personality (and where MBTI stems from)?
They were developed separately and simultaneously, though MBT theory was constructed during the 50s and 60s while Socionics theory wasn't established until the 70s-80s.

Socionics is closer to the theoretical foundations and principles of Jung, so the type characters and functions are somewhat more compatible to Jungian typology than MBTI, but it still goes in its own direction.

Introduction into Socionics (draft): Part 1

Socionics is a branch of psychology that studies relationships between psychological types. It is based on somewhat modified system of psychological types described by C.G.Jung in his Psychological Types (1916, 1920 etc.) and Tavistock Lectures (1935).

You also know a different version of Jungian typology known as the Myers-Briggs Type Theory (MBTT). It is based on the test called Myers-Briggs Type Indicator (MBTI). It is well known in the US, and for the last years in Europe as well.
The Myers-Briggs Type Theory is sometimes confused with socionics, although there are some differences between these two theories. Let us describe them shortly:

Different methods of type evaluation. MBTT almost completely relies upon tests, while socionics from the beginning developed alternative methods – determining type by interviewing, observation, etc. Verbal testing is considered as a secondary, not primary method, because it says nothing about the nature of types. This does not mean that tests are not known in socionics. For example we the authors of this article developed the Socionic Multifactor Test, which we are going to discuss below. In the last years socionics focuses on biological parameters of types.

Somewhat different definitions of the 4 basic type criteria. In MBTT, the type is defined as 4 basic choices: extraversion (E) or introversion (I), sensing (S) or intuition (N), thinking (T) or feeling (F), judgment (J) or perception (P). Socionics uses terms logic/ethic – instead of thinking/feeling, and rationality/irrationality – instead of perception/judgment. However, more important is the contents of these definitions, they do not always coincide.

Intertype relationships. Although several representatives of MBTT proposed their own views on compatibility between the Myers-Briggs types, a thorough theory of intertype relationships does not exist in MBTT. By contrast, Socionics, from the very beginning, was created as a theory describing and explaining some regularities of relations between people.

On the other hand, there is also a lot in common between these two theories. Main fields of application are the same: family and business consulting, education etc. When first publications about MBTT appeared in the former USSR (a very short overview appeared in 1984, and several popular books were translated since 1994), socionists found a lot of useful information there. We believe in fruitful cooperation between these two branches of Jungian typology is possible; we should not forget about the differences, but we believe they can be resolved.​
 

scorpiomover

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Plenty of reference and preference for INTJ around here. Some think INTJ is a bettered INTP.

If its a one-letter-difference thing then why not so much love for ENTP, ISTP, INFP?
Is it a J appeal (P perceived as causing most problems in its combination with other traits)?
Is it that INTJ's considered to be "the Mastermind" and thus 'ultimate' type?
A combination?

By Socionics, compatibility for the two is 18%, and labeled as Quasi-identical.
There is high resemblance - but what does it mean?
Our society has evolved to be heavily dependent on mass-produced homogeneous technology. Even in those areas we rely on people, such as work, we still rely on technology such as computers to double-check their work, and to get round any other problems we might have with dealing with people. So our society is heavily dependent on those who use T a lot.

We're also a highly integrated society, with mobiles, email, and the internet. If one person has found a solution, it's on the internet by the end of the day. So where we do have a problem that we don't already have a solution to, it's one where group-think has failed, and so would require solutions that extroverts have already failed, and it's up to the introverts to save the day.

For the same reason, if existing reliable solutions exist, the types that Sensors suggest, they've already been posted on the internet, and everyone knows about it. Again, up to the intuitives to solve what is still a problem.

We've also used technology to provide goods, services and solutions as quickly as possible. As a result, people have become habituated to expect instant answers. INTJs prefer to provide instant answers.

INTPs prefer to give a more accurate solution, that future-proofs for any future potential problems, and that takes time. It's more efficient, when it comes to policies that will be enforced for a long time. But it doesn't address our societal values of getting everything NOW.

So, INTPs and INTJs both seem to be the people that most people will turn to, for the problems in their life that they haven't already solved themselves, to solve them via technology with new and ingenious solutions. But INTPs take a long time to get to them, and that infuriates people, because they are so used to getting things NOW. INTJs promise to solve solutions NOW, by relying on improvised methods using Ni, with the expectation that if there are problems later, which they always are, they'll solve them again with Ni. That might be a problem. But usually, people are so used to having solutions already, that their impatience overrides their need for caution. So INTJs appear to be the saviours of society, and INTPs those who could save society but don't seem willing to.

In the Medieval era, when society had not been sanitised, and people were very much aware of how many potential lethal threats there were around every corner, a new solution could bring with it a lethal threat. So then, the xNTP approach was preferred to solve such problems. INTJs were probably often employed as skilled craftsmen, finding ways to make solutions and improvements to keep the machinery of society running.

In reality, INTJs are much better at giving temporary immediate workarounds to technological and practical problems that no-one has any reliable solutions for, not in documented records, and not any solutions discovered by other people. INTPs are better at taking the time to work out solutions for long-term policy, that would be as problem-free as possible from future problems, and so would be as reliable for the long-term, as possible.
 

Brontosaurie

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Socionics is closer to the theoretical foundations and principles of Jung, so the type characters and functions are somewhat more compatible to Jungian typology than MBTI, but it still goes in its own direction.
very no. socionics functional stack is incompatible with jung's dynamics of functions, the anima etc.

INTj would have extraverted sensing as inferior. according to jung, the inferior (anima) is the opposite function with opposite direction.
 

EyeSeeCold

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very no. socionics functional stack is incompatible with jung's dynamics of functions, the anima etc.

INTj would have extraverted sensing as inferior. according to jung, the inferior (anima) is the opposite function with opposite direction.
Etc? Are there any other examples? Note I did say more compatible than MBTI, not absolutely compatible.

Socionical functional stacking is more complicated than that. Both Fe and Se are recognized as 'inferior' for TiNe/INTj, but in different ways. Se is adversarial / unvalued while Fe is compensatory / desired; the former is a weak point of stress while the latter is a weak point of sustenance.


I would recommend these two articles for more information if you have any questions or doubts :
Intertype Relationships: Functional Analysis
The Model A (informational exchange model)

Socionics makes use of symbols to denote the functions, you can see the correlations here:
http://www.socioniko.net/en/articles/lytovs-intro3.html
 

Brontosaurie

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Etc? Are there any other examples? Note I did say more compatible than MBTI, not absolutely compatible.

Socionical functional stacking is more complicated than that. Both Fe and Se are recognized as 'inferior' for TiNe/INTj, but in different ways. Se is adversarial / unvalued while Fe is compensatory / desired; the former is a weak point of stress while the latter is a weak point of sustenance.


I would recommend these two articles for more information if you have any questions or doubts :
Intertype Relationships: Functional Analysis
The Model A (informational exchange model)

Socionics makes use of symbols to denote the functions, you can see the correlations here:
http://www.socioniko.net/en/articles/lytovs-intro3.html
none of them are absolutely compatible, but in my book the fundamental thesis of jung - functional dynamic, T-F and S-N axes of directional compensation, dominant-inferior - is adhered to in MBTI and not in socionics.

wouldn't that be Fi and Se? in jung, a Ti dominant will have inferior Fe, not Fi and Se.

i will read these articles.

EDIT: no i won't because those symbols are a redundant embarrassment. =(
 

patchtrix

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I think one reason INTJs appear superior, is mainly due to higher confidence, selfesteem, and decisiveness. My recently developing idea on "why" actually has to do with the F functions in each type. (im no expert on this by far, so i may be way off course, but i have been thinking about this quite a bit lately.) Even though F is not dominant in either one, i think it still plays a part in how each type views themselves. INTJ has tertiary function of Fi, which ( i think) means they develop their feelings from within themselves and tend not to be affected by the emotions of others. a.k.a being around someone sad is not going to make them sad, being around someone mad isn't going to make them mad. I believe introverted feeling also causes them to tend to bottle any feelings they do have inside themselves, not expressing them whatsoever. This can make the INTJ appear cold and unfeeling, even though they actually do have feelings. They just have a hard type relating and expressing them. INTP on the other hand has least dominant/inferior function of Fe. I think this means that their feelings tend to be absorbed by their surroundings and other people, causing them to be slightly empathetic. As a result of this difference, the INTJ is going to appear to be more confident because they really do not care what others think of them. They are going to do/say/wear whatever they want because how their actions make other people feel does not matter to them. INTP on other hand might be more careful about offending people, because if they change how someone else feels, that feeling affects the INTP. This also makes the INTP maybe more self conscious about themselves and affecting their self esteem. In the end, all this is small compared to other functions, but can have an effect on how they appear to other people socially. Most of this is based off comparing me(intp) with my wife(intj)

The reason INTJ are more quick and decisive is due to the differences in T and N. The INTP has dominant function of introverted thinking causing them to think deeply on one thing, and secondary of extraverted intuition causing them to believe in multiple different outcomes and possibilities ( also causing them to look insecure, because they believe so many things are possible, intps don't really have one set belief.) INTJ dominant function is introverted intuiting (Ni), causing them to "see the future" in a sense without necessarily knowing how they know it. This can cause them to make quicker decisions because they are more visionary, and they just know what needs to be done. This also connects with their extraverted thinking ( having many ideas, are that are relatively shallow in depth of thought) causing them to be better at strategizing.

I haven't thought or looked how the other function of sensing comes into play with these two personality types, so i can't offer my insight with that aspect. I am not sure if my ideas are across the board with intj and intp types, i have developed these thoughts mostly from interaction with my wife who is intj.
 

EyeSeeCold

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none of them are absolutely compatible, but in my book the fundamental thesis of jung - functional dynamic, T-F and S-N axes of directional compensation, dominant-inferior - is adhered to in MBTI and not in socionics.

wouldn't that be Fi and Se? in jung, a Ti dominant will have inferior Fe, not Fi and Se.

i will read these articles.

EDIT: no i won't because those symbols are a redundant embarrassment. =(
It's alright.

"Directional compensation" is the basis of Socionic duality and informational cognitive processing. I say to superficially compare the 4 function MBTI layout to Socionics is a rash thing to do, when the 8 function model in Socionics necessitates a more careful examination.
 
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