INTP Difficulty Socializing

[cloud_way]

Hi!

I'm new to this forum, or rather this is my first ever participation in any sort of online community forum. I recently discovered I am an INTP, and it's great to know there are plenty of other offbeat people like myself! I've always coined myself as "socially awkward", but just thought it was due to my shyness and introversion. I really believed it was a "fixable" problem, but after gathering insight about my personality type I am convinced otherwise. It seems like in recent years I have grown more into the INTP stereotype. Although I have overcome a lot of my social anxiety, there's always a great deal of hesitation to interact with others (especially strangers). After a little contemplation, I find that this hesitation arises for three main reasons:

1. I automatically have a sense of whether or not I will like someone solely based off their body language/facial expressions, or after a few seconds of conversation. For example, I used to work in a restaurant, and if a person came in talking on their cellphone or came in without responding to my greeting, an automatic wall would go up. I would give them subpar customer service because I already pegged them as arrogant, and lacking in self-awareness with no consideration for others. If someone is devoid of basic qualities such as these, I equate them to not being worth my time.

2. No one has anything interesting to say!! I find that in most conversations, the depth of a discussion or debate can only go so far before the other person has nothing more to add, stops making logical sense, or gets offended by the topic at hand. This is so frustrating because I don't see the point in conversing about trivial matters like what you did today or your favorite TV show. I usually "check out" when the conversation whittles down to this because I simply don't care. Again, it just isn't worth my time.

3. It's really difficult to compose and formulate my thoughts into coherent words for other people. I can have an idea perfectly laid out in my mind. The trouble is getting other people to understand the masses of information I have to share in order to get my point across. Yet again, not worth my time or effort because they most likely still won't fully grasp what I'm trying to articulate.


I consider myself very open-minded, which is why this whole personality quirk almost makes me feel like a walking contradiction for being so critical and biased towards others. I hope I'm not just ranting and actually made a little sense here! Anyways, just wondering if anyone else has these issues as well and how they deal with them-especially in social settings. I also might add that I'm about to start a new job and am dreading all the "get to know you" talk with coworkers, customers, etc. Any advise would be appreciated!

 

[Frankie]

Welcome to the fold! First off, threads like this exist, if you dig around a little. Nonetheless, I'll still add something. I think INTPs are very good at knowing what their problems are, but cannot seem to find solutions from anywhere. So, I'm not offering a solution here.
I find that "the wall" exists almost naturally between me and a stranger. Unless I make a conscious attempt to break that wall the very first time we meet, like saying hello or some form of eye contact, the wall, more or less would stay there as long as I'm not forced by any societal rules to actually relate with the person.
On expressing the information in my head, I find that it's easier when I write it down, that way, I can control how the information comes out. But, yeah, it's still a huge problem,for me at least, when put on the spot, to express my ideas.
On no one having anything interesting to say, I also find that it's one of the materials that build "the wall". Even when I force myself to join in, I just fizzle out after a while and then comes the awkward silence.
Anyways, this is just to say, you're not alone.

 

[StevenM]

Once I get everyone laughing enough, people drop the pressure off of me. Then it can be smooth sailing from there.

 

[Jennywocky]

Welcome cloud way, and I hope things go okay with the new job.

I relate to all the things you've brought up. I personally think people are who they are, but it's possible to "add to" your abilities and skills to some degree, so that your preferences no longer leave you without options. In terms of socializing, you might not really care a lot about it or feel really comfortable with it, but it's possible to learn enough to get by so it doesn't close doors for you with the things you really are good at and would like to do.

1. I automatically have a sense of whether or not I will like someone solely based off their body language/facial expressions, or after a few seconds of conversation. For example, I used to work in a restaurant, and if a person came in talking on their cellphone or came in without responding to my greeting, an automatic wall would go up. I would give them subpar customer service because I already pegged them as arrogant, and lacking in self-awareness with no consideration for others. If someone is devoid of basic qualities such as these, I equate them to not being worth my time.

　
Yeah. I still laugh at myself on this one. You mention later that you are open-minded, so you feel like a walking contradiction by being so critical, and I have the same thoughts of myself. I think the open-mindedness comes, though, not in not having an initial reaction (we're all human, we all have reactions) but in choosing to remain open to new information past that even if you're already drawn some conclusions.
　
Anyway, I do have initial "vibes" on people and how deeply I'll be able to engage them, usually in a very short period of time. And I have the same response when it comes to things I consider rude or clueless or whatever else. And yeah, pet peeves include not being responsive or talking on a phone in a crowded room. Stuff that suggests they either are very self-absorbed and/or actively don't care to avoid invading the space or privacy of others. Someone who doesn't think. (For comparison, I'm a person who usually avoids walking in the path of others and is very aware of what people are doing around me, even if I don't remember details. I'm very careful to not intrude into the space of others.) Over time, I've learned to just file that initial thought about someone away while continuing to interact ; yes, maybe my initial perception was right, but it might not be ALL of "who they are" and maybe there were also some circumstances contributing to it. IOW, whether or not it's true, it doesn't mean they have nothing to offer or that you can't get something out of interacting with them.
　
There's also an awareness that when I judge others, they might also be judging me. I discovered at some point that my not talking could be seen as indifference or dislike for someone, versus not wanting to intrude (for example). I wouldn't want someone to write me off after five seconds because they misinterpret my behavior or think that behavior is "all that I am," so I try to give that allowance in return.
　

2. No one has anything interesting to say!! I find that in most conversations, the depth of a discussion or debate can only go so far before the other person has nothing more to add, stops making logical sense, or gets offended by the topic at hand. This is so frustrating because I don't see the point in conversing about trivial matters like what you did today or your favorite TV show. I usually "check out" when the conversation whittles down to this because I simply don't care. Again, it just isn't worth my time.

　
I despised small talk until probably I was 25-30. One reason was that it made no sense to me and seemed shallow/trivial. Another was that I sucked at it. I only wanted to talk about deep philosophical things or else deep "hobby niches."

But it's actually dumb little conversations that signal intent ("I don't harbor any ill will; I am open to future conversation") and builds little experiences and familiarity with the bulk of people we run into.

Basically, our issue is that we're "information" talkers, not "socializing" talkers. We want conversation to usually involve around the sharing of info, and we're good at that. We know and understand a lot of things. This other stuff? It's all based on little social conventions and rules and there is no logical roadmap through it. Some people talk for other reasons besides wanting to think deeply... lol. That used to frustrate me; now I just see it as differences, as long as the person still wants to learn at times.

I learned how to do it mostly because of work, and because after awhile I did start feeling just like an information conduit versus having people to talk to, and I actually experienced a need to connect. The small stuff actually sometimes allows you to build up to bigger stuff. If you don't learn how to engage on the small stuff, your pool of people who can just leap into the large stuff is very small.

3. It's really difficult to compose and formulate my thoughts into coherent words for other people. I can have an idea perfectly laid out in my mind. The trouble is getting other people to understand the masses of information I have to share in order to get my point across. Yet again, not worth my time or effort because they most likely still won't fully grasp what I'm trying to articulate.

　
Yeah, I find that my thoughts are far more like a web (first of all). I can break it into very logical statements that proceed, one after the other (and I've had people tell me I talk like that), but I do feel like I'm missing some of the connections... i'm talking a spatial configuration of knowledge and converting it into a linear one. And also, sometimes what seems very simple to me is confusing to others. So it's not just about sharing the info, it's about understanding how they are perceiving it so that you can word it in a way that they grasp. (and control the amount of it that you dump in their lap at once.) Of course that kind of relationship is more a 'teacher' relationship or you're building a connection by speaking their language. It's a little different than just sharing info.
　
These are approaches that can only really be learned by practice and feeling uncomfortable. I guess the motivation has to come from you, if you think it's worth it to figure out. It sounds like you want to succeed in your job and actually fit in, even if you're not a socializer per se. And no, it doesn't sound like a rant. These just sound like typical issues that we might experience. You actually sound very open in your style.

I might be able to throw out a few pieces of advice later, I'm just at work and have to go do some other stuff... so... maybe later!

 

[cloud_way]

@Frankie: I understand there's probably plenty of other forums discussing the same matters, but as this being an increasingly weighing issue on my mind, I felt the need to unravel my own thoughts word for word. I apologize for the repetition. Thanks for your understanding.

@TMills27: I agree about the pressure. And it definitely is exacerbated the longer you stand there trying to come up with something clever to say that your audience can laugh about or relate to. But once the first laugh comes it makes conversing so much easier. On the other hand, if a joke passes and it doesn't get the appreciation I anticipated, I feel compelled to crawl back up into my shell to avoid any further judgment.

@JennyWocky: Thanks for your insight! Just for the record I think I'm a lot more cynical in my own mind than I actually am on the exterior. I wouldn't say I'm a people person, but I do give off a friendly disposition for the most part. I don't like the idea of coming across as mean or rude, so I definitely try to put my best efforts forward. My job was the exception because every other person ended up working up my nerves (on the inside of course). And to display my contempt outwardly, I wouldn't go out of my way to try and form a connection. I would strictly stick to taking their food order and leave it at that. I guess to me, that's my definition of "subpar service" haha.

I see your point about the small stuff leading to deeper connections. I guess it always just seems that when I make the effort, the small-talking phase never ends and the efforts to formulate a relationship just seem like a waste if there's not a continuous reciprocation of learning and growth.

The sharing information with others seems to be the biggest hindrance once I actually attempt to make an effort to interact. The fact that everything coming out of my mouth has to be well thought out in terms of how it is worded makes it difficult to keep up with small talk, and continue the train of conversation smoothly.

It's not hard to keep my composure together, but on the inside it's like a raging fire of frustration. Overcoming the internal battle seems like the biggest challenge of socializing.

On a side note, sorry if my replies aren't formatted correctly. I haven't yet figured out how to insert quotes from other people in my replies.

 

[Teffnology]

I can relate on virtually everything you hit on.

I also worked in food service for the better part of a decade. I definetly interacted with my customers in a similar manner. Quick to make an assessment and utilize "the wall" if I deemed them unworthy of my genuine care and service.

In regards to co-workers I experienced the same tug of war in keeping things friendly on the surface but dreading the inevitable "checking in" small talk. I am a big sports fan so I usually gravitated towards coworkers who at least cared about sports a little bit. Even so I found that while we shared a common interest the conversations hovered around the surface.

When I do meet someone I can actually interact with I feel almost overwhelmed with thoughts and struggle to string sentences together. I typically go off on rabbit trails and the other person is left trying to connect the dots of my thinking or I am trying to over explain my connections on the subjects.

Good luck in the new job. Self awareness and mindfulness are the only things Ive found to be helpful in those social situations.

 

[dr froyd]

The solution is to turn off the logical mind and turn on the emotional mind. The INTP has the Fe - a genius tool for communicating with people if you develop it well. At some point (after a lot of practice) you can reintroduce some of that logical stuff to make conversations more interesting for yourself on a intellectual level. But that is the thing -- it takes a lot of social skill and attention to small cues in order to use logic in an interesting way when interacting socially.

How to achieve this on a practical level? Think less and do more, introduce volatility to your social life. The social mind learns through mistakes. One place of extreme social volatility: night clubs. Go out 2 days a week sober and chat up people. Worked like magic for me.

INTPs can analyze this stuff in and out for ages and they never get anywhere. They key is action, not analysis.

 

[Teffnology]

I know that my main problem to this point has been an over reliance on an undeveloped Fe. I understand what you are saying in that action is better than analysis but to counter, pure action without analysis has gotten me to the dire straits I am in currently.

The night club theory has a few holes that I don't feel the need to diagram specifically but the concept of getting out of the comfort zone as the only true form of progress is relevant.

As in most things balance is essential, analysis coupled with action.

 

[dr froyd]

^ Yes there is not much wrong with analysis in itself, but it is quite clear to me that when it comes to highly complex things like human behaviour and emotional growth, the loop of subjective logic which INTPs easily fall into is just one huge waste of time. There is no way to reason oneself to emotional growth and social intelligence. And you are right, the night club thing is extremely far from perfect, but it is a sustainable source of social experience!

By the way, would you mind describing the sort of dire straits you are talking about? Not to gloat but so that people can learn.

 

[cloud_way]

@dr froyd: I can definitely see the logic behind where you're coming from. Like anything in life, if you want to expand your knowledge or understanding, you're going to have to venture outside of your comfort zone.

@Teffnology: There is also a need for balance, I agree. I don't think dr froyd was implying to completely throw logic out the window, however, taking an extreme stance or outlook in most situations is often the product of close-mindedness. It disables your ability to see the situation from different perspectives aside from your own. I think the problem about purely "acting" is that it comes off as not genuine since the intrinsic nature of an INTP is to rely on logic; it's part of our character. If you remove logic from the equation, you end up questioning/regretting your actions later on.

 

[Teffnology]

Cherrio good sirs!

I think we are all more or less on the same page now.

My story parts 1 and 2

http://www.intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=21661
http://www.intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=21669

I did take a rather literal interpretation of dr froyd's example but have experienced both extremes and saw fit to highlight moderation. I choose casinos as oppossed to nightclubs so I do subscribe to his theory just cautioning for overextension of Fe in an underdeveloped state.

 

[dr froyd]

^ Now I see where you are coming from. And yes, when it comes to life decisions it is a whole different thing, where INTPs are known to fall prey to their underdeveloped Fe.