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INTJ vs. INTP

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#1
Hello,

I have been studying personality typing for years, and I have finally have a personal consensus on INTJs (NiTe) vs. INTPs (TiNe).

1. Ti vs. Te. Ti is about subjective logic. That means that Ti comes from one's subconcious storehouse of facts, insights and information. This then leads Ti to draw personal conclusions about the nature of things, to understand the inner logic behind an idea. These ideas can be in mathematics, philosophy, computer science, or almost any field. Ti can also be very abstract. Because of this, Ti types excel in fields such as philosophy, theoretical physics, artificial intelligence, etc. - highly theoretical fields that require abstract, subjective logic to solve problems.

Te is about objective facts and information. Te is less subjective, and therefore more grounded in objective reality. It is also more grounded in practical affairs. Therefore, Te is based on objective, practical information that is grounded in fact. It is also more concrete and tangible than Te.

Because of these differences, Ti types can miss the boat about objective information. For instance, a Ti type might work out a complete algorithm to a math problem using their abstract logic, but screw up a calculation, because they have a weaker sense of objective facts. Te types might get every calculation right, but struggle thinking up an abstract answer to a problem. Ti types might accuse Te types as being sensing types (when they are intuitives) because they are so in touch with the facts. Te types might accuse Ti types of being feeling types, because they dislike anything subjective. In reality, both are wrong.

2. Ni vs. Ne. Ne is about novelty, creativity, and innovation. The key to Ne is that it has an objective, practical eye for innovation. Ne types want to change the world with their ideas, to have an impact and make a difference. They are visionaries with an eye toward the future. Some of the world's greatest innovations have come from Ne types.

Ni is subjective like Ti, but while Ti is oriented toward the subjective logic behind ideas, Ni is focused on creativity. Ni will therefore study concepts in all sorts of fields, simply for their own sake, gleaning the most creative, personal ideas it can grasp. It is almost like a history of concepts or 'free-play,' and unlike Ne, without any practical purpose in mind. Ni can also be about developing ideas, using one's hunch to pursue as many ideas from one's subconscious as possible.

3. INTP vs. INTJ. Ne is the secondary function of INTPs, and therefore feeds Ti. It will therefore search through objective, innovative books, inventions and people to glean information to feed its subjective logic. Once enough information is gathered, some kind of subjective conclusion is drawn from the information, thereby satisfying Ti.

Ni is the primary function of INTJs. INTJs will therefore develop all kinds of subjective hunches and ideas that they find creative and original. Then, through Te, INTJs will use objective facts and information to verifty their ideas, perhaps testing them empirically.

If you visualize the functions, INTPs and INTJs are the inverse of each other, and to each one, the other seems backwards in its reasoning. This part really clashes with the MBTI but I believe, from studying a number of descriptions, it is correct; INTJs actually hate feelings. They hate it when things become emotional and are largely indifferent to humane purposes or causes - 'Fi.' I believe that INTPs are more able to come to terms with Fi, and are largely indifferent to emotions, seeing humane causes as simply a part of life. I also believe that INTPs mind people who are aggressive or demanding. Because of this INTPs and INTJs can clash. INTPs can see INTJs as too demanding. The INTP, not seeing the INTJs inner play of ideas can also accuse them as being a sensing type. Also, INTJs, not seeing the inner logic of INTPs, accuse them as being 'too subjective' and therefore a feeling type. I believe both are confused - in addition to the MBTI's classification of this behaviour.

Anyway, those are my insights. Tell me what you think.

EDIT: I have been thinking about this, and I think that there is more. I think there also exists an existential NiTe INTP, to whom life is some kind of existential puzzle, that hates emotions and feelings like my INTJ, but this time it's Fe not Fi they mind. There would also be a TiNe INTJ that is a precise, systematic thinker/mathematician, but hates 'loud, obnoxious sensations.' This would make two of every type, each with a different leading and inferior function.
 

QuickTwist

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#2
The last bits were the most interesting. Wish you were around when I first came to this site, would have saved me a lot of trouble (and testing).
 

Serac

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#3
No offense but the bit on Ti vs Te made no sense whatsoever. What are "objective facts"? You seem to create a dichotomy of "abstract thinking" vs "objective facts" which to me doesn't mean much. Ti might be more interested in abstract systems, but ultimately, doing inference in the real world is a scientific problem and thus subject to abstract modeling. Te, to me, is simply being content with knowing isolated pieces of information as opposed to structuring knowledge into consistent systems. Obviously, many people commit a lot of stupid mistakes when they try to do the latter, and become prone to lose touch with reality, but that's a epistemological problem.
 

Reluctantly

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#4
No offense but the bit on Ti vs Te made no sense whatsoever. What are "objective facts"? You seem to create a dichotomy of "abstract thinking" vs "objective facts" which to me doesn't mean much. Ti might be more interested in abstract systems, but ultimately, doing inference in the real world is a scientific problem and thus subject to abstract modeling. Te, to me, is simply being content with knowing isolated pieces of information as opposed to structuring knowledge into consistent systems. Obviously, many people commit a lot of stupid mistakes when they try to do the latter, and become prone to lose touch with reality, but that's a epistemological problem.
This is all very much in line with Jung's dichotomies and definitions. Objective here probably means (on a strictly conceptual level) a focus on things outside of the self. Te's focus is then empirical and hands-on because its thinking focus is on the external world.

Ti is supposed to be thinking turned inward, a subjective viewpoint, because it colors the world from some internal base of reason or logic; it's axiomatically based, which can lead to many problems sometimes. Actually I see that shit a lot here from self-proclaimed objective INTPs, following their axiomatic reasoning above what anyone else says, and it has really turned me off from the majority of posters (but nevermind). But Te is supposed to take things much more as they are and interact accordingly. Not so much pre-thought.

Now realistically, anyone with a brain uses Ti and Te. They each have benefits, depending on circumstance and mathematics is pretty useful for modeling the world, even if the world doesn't necessarily follow mathematics 100%. Cause sometimes you need to make decisions without having a large body of information or just need to simplify your world. But sometimes your thoughts don't match up very well with reality and it's better to get hands-on and take in what's around you without any kind of pre-judgement. A truly smart person should have a good balance of each. So I don't understand why people here seem to try to distance themselves from Te, as if it's some sort of evil that makes you not INTP or something (not that being INTP really means much anyway).
 

Animekitty

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#5
Jung saw Te as unable to go beyond the data like how (in his experience) Freud was unable to see the unconscious contained good and bad not just bad which Freud called the search of the unconscious Occult. Realy Jung saw Te as dogmatic and Ti as original but fairy headed or so in ideas the divorce themselves from reality. But Ti does make clear what it is clear on and what it is not.

Chapter 10
His style is usually loaded and complicated by all sorts of accessories, qualifications, saving clauses, doubts, etc., which spring from his exacting scrupulousness.
On Te thinking (empirical evidence), Jung writes.

Chapter 10
Certain anthropological peculiarities of the dwellers on the Atlantic seaboard are easily explained by the submerging of Atlantis, and so on.
--------------
When we trace the dream to an overloaded stomach, the dream is not thereby explained, and when we explain telepathy as 'vibrations', we have said just as little. Since, what are 'vibrations'?
Jung was talking about entire mindsets when it came to the functions. He said Extraverts were more in the grip of inflexibility. That Extroverts usually are only Extraverted in their mindset. Introverts realize more often their opposite attitude of extroversion. Te would strongly think it has answers where Ti would be more cautious.
 

QuickTwist

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#6
A good source for what Jung thought of Te and Ti would be "The Extroverted Man (The less impassioned man)" for Te and "The Introverted Man (the more impassioned man)" for Ti. Would be found in chapter 4 of 'Psychological Types.' Likewise with Fe and Fi in "The Extroverted Woman (the less impassioned woman)" and "The Introverted Woman (the more impassioned woman)" respectively. Jung goes into more of the philosophical underpinnings of these things in Chapter 5. Chapter 4 is more about concrete examples and Chapter 5 is more about the fermentation of the differences in these Judging Functions. I will say Chapter 5 is very difficult to grasp if you've not read Chapter 4.
 

Reluctantly

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#7
Jung saw Te as unable to go beyond the data like how (in his experience) Freud was unable to see the unconscious contained good and bad not just bad which Freud called the search of the unconscious Occult. Realy Jung saw Te as dogmatic and Ti as original but fairy headed or so in ideas the divorce themselves from reality. But Ti does make clear what it is clear on and what it is not.

Chapter 10
His style is usually loaded and complicated by all sorts of accessories, qualifications, saving clauses, doubts, etc., which spring from his exacting scrupulousness.
This is just talking about an introvert going off the deep end. I mean Jung also said this about Ti:

"In thinking out his problems to the utmost of his ability, he also complicates them, and constantly becomes entangled in every possible scruple. However clear to himself the inner structure of his thoughts may be, he is not in the least clear where and how they link up with the world of reality."
So no Ti doesn't make clear what it is clear on and what it is not. It's only usually clear to the subject and that's the problem. And this forum is pretty big proof of that.

Also, if you're going to call Te dogmatic, you should illustrate that point. Just sticking to data doesn't make someone dogmatic; it might make them narrow-minded or ignorant about some things, but it also means they aren't going to go off the deep end with their thinking and come up with jarring or warped shit that has little or no basis in reality outside of their minds. Not meaning to be a dick, but if you don't explain or at least try and objectify your conclusions, they are just postulations that may or may not make much sense.

On Te thinking (empirical evidence), Jung writes.

Chapter 10
Certain anthropological peculiarities of the dwellers on the Atlantic seaboard are easily explained by the submerging of Atlantis, and so on.
--------------
When we trace the dream to an overloaded stomach, the dream is not thereby explained, and when we explain telepathy as 'vibrations', we have said just as little. Since, what are 'vibrations'?
Jung was talking about entire mindsets when it came to the functions. He said Extraverts were more in the grip of inflexibility. That Extroverts usually are only Extraverted in their mindset. Introverts realize more often their opposite attitude of extroversion. Te would strongly think it has answers where Ti would be more cautious.
All the passage is saying is that Te looks more for objective explanations, rather than subjective ones. Your conclusion about flexibility and Te thinking it has answers doesn't follow. In fact, the passage alone suggests the opposite.
 
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#8
Jung was talking about entire mindsets when it came to the functions. He said Extraverts were more in the grip of inflexibility. That Extroverts usually are only Extraverted in their mindset. Introverts realize more often their opposite attitude of extroversion. Te would strongly think it has answers where Ti would be more cautious.
In Chapter X of Psychological Types, Jung said that a Ti-dom's "judgment appears cold, inflexible, arbitrary, and ruthless, because it relates far less to the object than to the subject. ... In the pursuit of his ideas he is generally stubborn, headstrong, and quite unamenable to influence."
 

QuickTwist

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#9
Jung was talking about entire mindsets when it came to the functions. He said Extraverts were more in the grip of inflexibility. That Extroverts usually are only Extraverted in their mindset. Introverts realize more often their opposite attitude of extroversion. Te would strongly think it has answers where Ti would be more cautious.
In Chapter X of Psychological Types, Jung said that a Ti-dom's "judgment appears cold, inflexible, arbitrary, and ruthless, because it relates far less to the object than to the subject. ... In the pursuit of his ideas he is generally stubborn, headstrong, and quite unamenable to influence."
Quite right. "Appears" is the key word there, I believe. Te doms just fit in more with societies rules and what not, making themselves look "important" to the lesser developed Te and "in control" and perhaps "composed" for a developed Te.
 

Animekitty

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#10
I was just trying to further the discussion as what I read and that Jung was a Ti type so he was biased. I do notice how rigid Ti types can be explaining away what you say with their own theories than objective facts but still, Jung say they can go beyond objective facts o create something new (Jung created his entire psychology). There are problems with both Ti and Te but the dom characteristics Te even if looking for objective explanations can be just as negligent in finding the answer as Ti but only insofar as they cannot accept that what model they have made of the world in any instance is incorrect and hold onto it because it is the only sensible explanation they can't be wrong. Ti is wrong for the opposite reason. Ti disconnects from reality. Te thinks the reality they developed is the correct reality when it is not. Those are the problems with Ti and Te that I see. This is just my observation. Rationality and empiricism both have problems. Rationalization away objections and empirical models that are just wrong and indefensible being defended. I don't make any judgment on which is worse just that both don't make the connection to reality any better than the other if pathological.
 
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#11
I was thinking...instead of using words like introverted thinking and extroverted intuition etc that people can easily misintepret, why not translate each Jungian function into actual processes that go on in the brain?

Personality psychology is pretty iffy to be honest.

The problem in my opinion is that Jung assumes too much. Personality models for him are associated with "flows of mental energy within the psyche" to paraphrase. (If anyone wants I can give the exact quote later) What that means is that for Jung, personality is something intrinsic, it has to do with the structure of your mind and the idea that the structure of the mind among human beings can be classified into 4 categories with the attitudes determining the direction of flow of energy.

Meanwhile, stuff like the big 5 model and even mbti tend to correlate personality with behaviour. Are you generally on top of things or haphazard and improvising? (J vs P) Do you usually prefer to keep to yourself or interact with others? (I vs E) and so on. That makes things really easy to determine and I'd say the people who would rate you most accurately on these scales wouldn't be yourself but the people around you.

But...the latter models don't really say much do they? It's like the early biologists who just classified living things. Okay, so that thing is a bird and than other thing is an amphibian but what qualities or structures make them so? If we wanted to, how could we transform the latter to the former?

Now with genetics and evo-devo, we can answer these questions. We can tell for example which genes are responsible for the differences in structure. We can create a genetic map that tells us exactly how amphibians and birds diverged from their common ancestor.

We can't do that with personality psychology. There is no agreed upon, scientifically validated map of the mind and so a lot of talk about personality psychology just ends up being wishy washy. :/
 

QuickTwist

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#12
I was thinking...instead of using words like introverted thinking and extroverted intuition etc that people can easily misintepret, why not translate each Jungian function into actual processes that go on in the brain?

Personality psychology is pretty iffy to be honest.

The problem in my opinion is that Jung assumes too much. Personality models for him are associated with "flows of mental energy within the psyche" to paraphrase. (If anyone wants I can give the exact quote later) What that means is that for Jung, personality is something intrinsic, it has to do with the structure of your mind and the idea that the structure of the mind among human beings can be classified into 4 categories with the attitudes determining the direction of flow of energy.
I have thought about this. Ultimately the answer is heuristics. You might say Jung was crazy for trying to fit "personality" into a box of sorts, but taking a step back, it's all really just a matter of perception. You might call it an anchor, or a framework to which we can build upon to explain things that are difficult to explain. That's really all it is.
 

Reluctantly

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#14
I was thinking...instead of using words like introverted thinking and extroverted intuition etc that people can easily misintepret, why not translate each Jungian function into actual processes that go on in the brain?

Personality psychology is pretty iffy to be honest.

The problem in my opinion is that Jung assumes too much. Personality models for him are associated with "flows of mental energy within the psyche" to paraphrase. (If anyone wants I can give the exact quote later) What that means is that for Jung, personality is something intrinsic, it has to do with the structure of your mind and the idea that the structure of the mind among human beings can be classified into 4 categories with the attitudes determining the direction of flow of energy.

Meanwhile, stuff like the big 5 model and even mbti tend to correlate personality with behaviour. Are you generally on top of things or haphazard and improvising? (J vs P) Do you usually prefer to keep to yourself or interact with others? (I vs E) and so on. That makes things really easy to determine and I'd say the people who would rate you most accurately on these scales wouldn't be yourself but the people around you.

But...the latter models don't really say much do they? It's like the early biologists who just classified living things. Okay, so that thing is a bird and than other thing is an amphibian but what qualities or structures make them so? If we wanted to, how could we transform the latter to the former?

Now with genetics and evo-devo, we can answer these questions. We can tell for example which genes are responsible for the differences in structure. We can create a genetic map that tells us exactly how amphibians and birds diverged from their common ancestor.

We can't do that with personality psychology. There is no agreed upon, scientifically validated map of the mind and so a lot of talk about personality psychology just ends up being wishy washy. :/
So...ironically, this is partly why Jung came up with his typology. Looking at genetics and brain structures, although a very objective thing to do, tells you nothing about the subjective experience of the person. Yes, you can derive certain things about someone from those things, but it doesn't tell you how they will use it or what it will mean to them or how it will color their world and why.

And not that I really give a shit, but in light of arguments like these, I've come to realize Jung was a lot smarter than people give him credit.
 
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#15
I do notice how rigid Ti types can be explaining away what you say with their own theories than objective facts but still, Jung say they can go beyond objective facts o create something new (Jung created his entire psychology). There are problems with both Ti and Te but the dom characteristics Te even if looking for objective explanations can be just as negligent in finding the answer as Ti but only insofar as they cannot accept that what model they have made of the world in any instance is incorrect and hold onto it because it is the only sensible explanation they can't be wrong. Ti is wrong for the opposite reason. Ti disconnects from reality. Te thinks the reality they developed is the correct reality when it is not.
Jung broke with Freud in large part because he thought Freud wanted him (and others) to treat Freud's theories as a kind of religion, rather than having an appropriately sceptical and open-minded scientific attitude toward them.

Mystical streak notwithstanding, Carl Jung was a believer in the scientific approach, and Isabel Myers did Jung the favor of treating him the same way he treated Freud. She took Psychological Types and devoted a substantial chunk of her life to putting its typological concepts to the test in a way that Jung never had, and in accordance with the psychometric standards applicable to the science of personality.

And Myers discovered that Jung had gotten quite a lot wrong in terms of the ways in which many of the aspects of personality Jung described actually cluster in real people, and one of the most significant corrections she made involved moving concrete/abstract from E/I to S/N.

Jung thought that all introverts were notably abstract in their orientation, and that all extraverts were notably concrete. But Myers discovered that there were abstract extraverts (ENs) and concrete introverts (ISs), and that there was no significant correlation at all between whether someone was extraverted or introverted and whether someone tended to be more focused on abstract theories or concrete facts.

So it's really a mistake for anyone, in 2018, to be subscribing to Jung's mistaken notion that a "Ti" person will be an abstract T (even if they're an ST), and a "Te" person will be a concretistic (to use Jung's term) T (even if they're an NT).

As between an ENTJ and an ISTP, the ENTJ will be the one more prone to abstract thinking, and if you're working with a function model that says otherwise, your function model is defective — and probably because of a non-Jungian over-reverence to Jung's original concepts.

If you're interested, you can find a longer discussion of this issue in this post.
 
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