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INTJ mothers?

Cavallier

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Alright, am I the only one with an INTJ mother? I know that INTJ females are fairly rare. Plus I suspect they often opt out of having children. Once they do have children I suspect they tend to be less than what is traditionally considered motherly. This isn't a complaint so much as an observation on my part. Feel free to correct me.

Mine is known for being coldhearted and having the emotional sympathy of a slug. That's more of a joke in my house than reality. She isn't cold-hearted but she's not the hugs and kisses type by any stretch of the imagination. She does care but she shows it through providing her family with utilitarian things not emotional displays of affection. Need a car? She'll find you a cheap one that looks like shit but is reliable. Need money and can't pay the rent? She'll find a job opening for you to apply for plus whatever she's got in her pocket. (we've never had much money) Need food? She'll run out and buy you groceries making sure they are healthy bulk things you can cook with and stretch for longer than a bag of potato chips. Need a hug and a shoulder to cry on? She freezes up. My father has always been the emotional center of my childhood home. My mother was the functional one who made sure the bills got paid and we had food to eat. It's a little bit of a gender switch. I wonder if part of it comes out of the fact that she is such an orderly project oriented INTJ while my father was a more flighty ENTP.

Let's broaden this subject a little:
Anybody know a mother or other female that is an INTJ?
What is she like?
Does she fit or not fit the gender norms?
Did she become a cuddly snuggly motherly sort when she had a kid?
Any strengths or weaknesses when it comes to providing emotional support?

Errggg...I hear about INTJ fathers a lot but I don't hear about INTJ mothers. I hate making new threads...blargh. Then there is the whole question of where I should put this. Relationships or MBTI? *sigh* Whatever.
 

dreamoftheunknown

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One of my best (girl) friends is an INTJ. She's a lot like the way you describe your mother. Organized, crisp, practical, logical. With respect to her friends, she's not big on giving emotional support, but if you need the shirt off her back, she'd give it to you. Not that I believe in "gender norms," but to answer that question - hell no. She's an engineer, who's really into outdoor activities (she's kind of hard-core about it). She's not a Mom, yet, but I think she does want kids. I don't think she's going to be the emotionally supportive kind of mom that everyone seems to expect women to become, but given the strength that she provides her friends and her loyalty, I expect that she'll be a good mother.
 

Adymus

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My girlfriend is an INTJ (I'm guessing that counts as "other female")

She is a bit more laid back than your standard INTJ model, in that she is very comfortable with improvisation and being spontaneous. She is actually much more affectionate than what you would expect from an NT, which works out perfectly because so am I.
Has no children, and would fall into the "INTJ women who are against procreation" umbrella, but I can see her being very affectionate if she did.

Does she fit or not fit the gender norms?
She has kind of a Dr. Jekyll and Ms. Hyde thing going on, because she actually has really well developed Fi, so she often has these random bursts of cuteness. But then she speaks in a very matter of fact tone, especially when talking about her opinion on what decisions we should be making, that can often be seen as forceful or tactless (Which is obviously not the most feminine thing in the world).
Oh, and me and her randomly compete with each other in various things. When playing a competitive game with her, you can't use the same "I'll go easy on her because she is just a girl" reasoning that guys are supposed to use in our culture. She will do everything in her power to win, including breaking rules, fighting dirty, and playing Ni dom mind games to psyche you out.

But much like your Mom (I don't think I have ever said that without intending it to be an insult), she always has a practical and actionable solution, in fact she actually gets off on coming up with practical solutions for herself and other people. She is very attentive in recognizing things that I need, for instance she randomly bought me socks yesterday when she noticed I needed some.
 

Cavallier

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She is very attentive in recognizing things that I need, for instance she randomly bought me socks yesterday when she noticed I needed some.
Ha. That's exactly like my mother. She sees problems and solves them.

It is an interesting dichotomy. On the one hand a woman who as a problem solver is incredibly effective at mothering but on the other hand the same woman has difficulty with showing physical affection and being motherly.*



*It all worked out just fine for me since I'm not a terribly physically affectionate person myself. Hell, I have trouble giving the cats enough petting time. Yet, I wonder if a child who needed more reassurance and physical affection would have felt abused or unloved by my mother. Or is my own introversion and lack of need for a lot of physical affection something I learned from my mother? :storks:
 

Dormouse

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Well, I have a pretty good INTJ friend. She's around my age, so obviously not a mother. I think she's more intent on cloning herself than acctually having children. (We actually recently discussed the whole career vs. motherhood dilemna.)

She's opiniated, though quite courteous and never pushy about it. Very confident, and she'll stand up for her beliefs but won't hold it against you if yours differ. Rather organised and comfortable when she has a task. Not quite a leader, but keeps a group on track. Really friendly if a bit reserved at first.

She definetly doesn't fulfill gender stereotypes. Lives for science and is dead set on engineering, not much into girly stuff but she likes to gossip.

She's actually very affectionate. Lots of hugs and things, also she tears up pretty easily. She's very up front about emotion. I actually find her a great person to confide in, she's really supportive, and in that humorous way that actually makes people feel better.

I'm not totally sure she's an INTJ (I actually didn't type her, she knew of myers-briggs and told me she was. I probably would have typed her differently, but I suck and she would know better anyways).
 

Silent_Rebel

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My mom is basicly the same as yours, cavallier. She is an INTJ... but that is not why she is like yours. She acts the same way, according to you.
 

DesertSmeagle

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i dont know what my mother is...but shes an overly sensitive emotional wreck whos very paranoid and gets really angry and excited really easily...what is this?..but she doesnt realy get along with my ahole intj father who has no concern for her emotion and just uses sharp sarcastic remarks when hes upset..the smallest mean sarcastic remark either pisses her off or makes her cry. she also is a a semi harcore Christian and is like a young senile person if u can imagine it..shes like...idk not smart? i rely dont know she doesnt use logic and my dads life is based on it..im pretty logical too obviously but i know how and where to use logic when my dad doesnt
 

Cavallier

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Hmmm...all of my experience with INTJs up to now hasn't included them being very physically affectionate. I'll have to amend my view of them. It's not as if I expect all INTJs to be the same. That's stupid. But I had assumed that mental brusqueness equated physical brusqueness as well.
 

Derocrates

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This topic is interesting because over the past couple of weeks I have been talking with an INTJ. I go off on deep science discussions with depth and she listens to me rather thoroughly and makes the effort to understand as she is a scientist as well. All in all, I'd say she is affectionate but only if I bring that out or say something to bring that out. She's quite introverted in comparison to my profound introvertedness and interestingly enough she keeps the conversations going by always wondering what is running amok in the cephalic gray forest...

Hmm...it's difficult to imagine a woman who is not affectionate to some degree...so much for gender roles...:rip:
 

Adymus

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Hmmm...all of my experience with INTJs up to now hasn't included them being very physically affectionate. I'll have to amend my view of them. It's not as if I expect all INTJs to be the same. That's stupid. But I had assumed that mental brusqueness equated physical brusqueness as well.
It's all a matter of how comfortable they are with that side of themselves, even INTPs can't be physically affectionate if they are comfortable accepting that side of themselves as part of who they are.


Curious, what is your ENTJ like in terms of physical affection?
 

Cavallier

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Curious, what is your ENTJ like in terms of physical affection?
He's very physically affectionate although it often has a deliberate "I AM HUGGING YOU RIGHT NOW!!!" edge to it. He isn't casually or unconsciously affectionate but he is definitely deliberately affectionate. :D

Why?
 

Adymus

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Out of all of the personality types, ENTJs I have spent the least time with, and it is extremely rare that I even meet any in life. I find that they are just about as rare as INTPs which I would consider to be exceedingly rare when compared to other types. I'm not talking about the MBTI statistics you'd find on the internet either, those are wrong anyway, I just mean what I encounter in my life.

I have not had as much of a chance to scrutinize how their functional dynamics play out as much as I have had a chance to see others.

So I guess I am just curious to see how Affection coming from inferior Fi compares with affection coming from auxiliary Fi, and if it resemble anything like the standard INTP model's relationship with affection.
 

Derocrates

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I'm not. And I've found that it can cause problems with men, since they not only expect women to be affectionate, but they seem to take the lack of affection as a sign that I don't care. Sigh.
It's funny that you mention that. I've particularly enjoyed thinking about this because there used to be this girl whom I'd shown initial interest in and she was so...aloof; not that I was any different. I mean, deep down inside I knew something was there but I guess we both played the game that looked like we didn't care but truly did. For example, I usually don't greet friends when they sign on to MSN, and with her, she'd do things like re-sign in, hoping I'd say something. Or we'd play this unspoken game of "who approached who the last time?"

It's good to reflect. Those days amused me.
 

DesertSmeagle

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This topic is interesting because over the past couple of weeks I have been talking with an INTJ. I go off on deep science discussions with depth and she listens to me rather thoroughly and makes the effort to understand as she is a scientist as well. All in all, I'd say she is affectionate but only if I bring that out or say something to bring that out. She's quite introverted in comparison to my profound introvertedness and interestingly enough she keeps the conversations going by always wondering what is running amok in the cephalic gray forest...

Hmm...it's difficult to imagine a woman who is not affectionate to some degree...so much for gender roles...:rip:
i wish i could talk to a scientist girl haha..i feel like im surrounded by retards..when i start to talk about psycholgy shit to my family they just tell me to shut up.
 

IndigoSensor

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Out of all of the personality types, ENTJs I have spent the least time with, and it is extremely rare that I even meet any in life. I find that they are just about as rare as INTPs which I would consider to be exceedingly rare when compared to other types. I'm not talking about the MBTI statistics you'd find on the internet either, those are wrong anyway, I just mean what I encounter in my life.

I have not had as much of a chance to scrutinize how their functional dynamics play out as much as I have had a chance to see others.

So I guess I am just curious to see how Affection coming from inferior Fi compares with affection coming from auxiliary Fi, and if it resemble anything like the standard INTP model's relationship with affection.
I dated an ENTJ for a while (that did not go so well for me, it ended on a neutral note but. Yeah, I got emotionally damaged by him really bad), and I agree they aren't common at all. He's the only confirmed one I know of (although I have observed others in the real world, but have not spoken to them at length). His Fi was developed just enough so he knew when to keep his trap shut around people who would wreck his systems. Around me, he didn't care and would steam roll you. He definintely also had that "I am hugging you right now" mentality. You praticaclly had to beg him to be physically affectionate, and when he was it was pretty mechanical (but natural). He would do such a thing with me when I gave or did something pratical.

It could have just been his interests, but he seemed to also respond to "cuteness". He found my anxiety with trying to explain things in a way he would underatand (I far over catered to him) cute and would often kind of go "aww... now be quiet, you'll hurt yourself", in a nice way. Affection came from him on his own terms pretty much. I'd get deadpanned out of nowhere with affection (if you can call it affection, it was very "deliberate"), and when the affection ended, to him it was like nothing happened at all. That to be honest really confounded me, because if I asked him about it, he would explain he felt it, but his actions and expressions did not mirror it at all, not in the least.

sorry about that derail from the OP.
 

Cavallier

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^No, the derail is interesting and thus not a problem for me. :D

This is where I wander off topic and continue with the ENTJ discussion...
Actually, I have to admit that your ENTJ sounds like a bit of a jerk. That being said I see a few of his actions mirrored by the ENTJ I know. It has taken some time for me to believe that when he says he cares about me he means it. I'm not emotionally needy but he is able to shut down after having physical/emotional contact in a way that belies his words. However, I never felt that he was being disingenuous so much as I felt that I was a means to an end. I felt like I was The Girlfriend. He has a view of what he wants his life to be like with certain goals and end game plans. I thought that he expected to have a girlfriend at a certain point and he decided that I fit that role. Then I realized that wasn't it at all.

He makes these plans and lists that he uses to organize his life. He takes a lot of contentment and a feeling of accomplishment when he marks things off his list or a plan comes to fruition. I asked him one morning around the second year of our relationship what his plans were for the day.

He said:

1. Take out the garbage and vacuum the carpet.
2. Get some reading homework done.
3. Snuggle Cavallier.
4. Go to the DMV and get his tags renewed.
5. Go for a run
6. Play some Guildwars.
7. Make dinner.

...so on and so forth. He had planned his day in such a way that he got to spend time with me. It was on his checklist of stuff he wanted to get done that day. That is how he shows his love and affection for me. He doesn't make room on his lists for people he doesn't care about. It does feel a little like being compartmentalized but it is important to note that once he has a list/plan he doesn't deviate from that plan unless something very important comes up. OR I make him change it. That is the other way I think ENTJs show their love. They are willing to adjust their plan around the people they love. They aren't so lenient otherwise. Now after we've spent time connecting emotionally/physically he steps back and starts in on his next project. I can almost see him making a satisfied little check mark next to Snuggle Cavallier on his mental list for the day. ;)
 

Marlene

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I'm an INTJ mother and most of what you've written is accurate in describing what I'm like.

I'm not what is traditionally considered motherly because, to answer one of your questions at the end of your post, I do not fit completely into gender norms. I have sympathy and compassion. I just don't show it in the same way most women do. I come off to most people as cold, but as you stated those who know me well, that I love, know I'm not in the least cold hearted. What I am is not very demonstrative in a loose sense with my affections. I'm selective about expressing soft feelings. I'm not touchy feely type of person, but with my kids I do hug them and I'm a great listener. I don't freeze up the way your mom does They know they can come to me for anything, and I won't react (freak out) the way many other more traditional, emotional mothers would. .

One of the ways I show my caring is like some of the examples you gave. I will problem solve and I will be a whiz and efficient at it and I won't make a big to-do about it or play stupid guilt trips.

I'd say one strong differentiating thing I've noticed between myself and other mothers is that I have treated my kids as separate individuals and mini-adults since they were quite young. I didn't baby them past when they were babies. I don't believe in talking down to children. I also read all of the child development experts so I'd know exactly what cognitive development they'd be going through and made sure they had all of the best reinforcements for their growth I could give them.

I sucked at the whole "pizza lunch mom" thing (volunteering with other mom's at the school, for anyone who doesn't know what I mean by that) , mainly because I don't fit in with that group of females and their mindset. My kids are both over 18 now. It's interesting reading your perspective as a child of an INTJ.

I think my ENFP daughter is perfectly happy with the way I am as a mother, but my ISFJ daughter, has often said things that made it clear she wished I were more like other more traditional mothers.
 

The Gopher

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typical you got the longest post of the board my sister is an INTJ but she tends to get emotional and freak out at tests...and then ace them...
 

Marlene

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typical you got the longest post of the board my sister is an INTJ but she tends to get emotional and freak out at tests...and then ace them...
Yes, it is typical. What's your point? :evil:By the way, something else that's typical is that your one line of text is already bothering me. The lack of correct sentence structure and capitals grates on me. But alas, "when in Roma" I will take an anti Grammar Nazi inoculation pill while visiting your fair INTP land.

I used to be like your sister, Gopher. I wouldn't freak out in an emotional sense, but I'd often get so nervous I would be nauseated and throw up. It was a case of lack of confidence combined with perfectionism. The lack of confidence was irrational since I generally also did well on tests. But, I suppose back then each new test was...well...a new test.
 

QuoVadis

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I'm an INTJ mom with an ENTJ husband. I am very affectionate to my children, it has always come naturally to me. I find emotions frustrating when they are not brought under the control of reason, or when they are used excessively. As long as I see them as reasonable, I am fine with them :cool: I dislike soap-opera drama and limit my relationships with my extended family because if it. I am very reserved around crowds or individuals I do not know well.

I found motherhood to be challenging in areas I did not expect to struggle in. My biggest frustration has been attempting to handle all the noise and chaos that come with small children. I found Janet Penley's book, MotherStyles, while searching for advice for INTJ moms. She covers all of the personality types but gives a little extra TLC to the rare mother types such as INTJs, INFJs, etc. Her book has inspired my own strategies to better cope with noise and chaos. (I am teaching my children sign language so they can still talk between themselves while I get the periodic quiet time I need even when no one else is around to step up as the supervising adult.)

My tendency to focus on one major task until I have mastered it has led me to turn motherhood into a full blown private career. Even my culinary side has blossomed when previous to marriage it did not exist. I research EVERYTHING. I am always hatching novel ideas to solve problems. I have used manufacturing efficiency ideas to stream-line my kitchen. My kitchen has a bit of a garage feel to it because I consider it my work shop. This year I have reformed my diet to that of a professional athlete as a result of the nutritional depletion/physical exhaustion I have experienced as a mother to very young children. Socially, extreme diets are not easy, but I am not super social anyway.

Another frustration I have had as a mom is the lack of time I have to study subjects I deem important. I cannot take my studies to depths formerly possible. I have learned to get to the important points fast when reading or searching out answers in categories such as religious studies. Redundant authors try my patience, as do cliche tips (If you search for ways to save money, every author on the internet advises you to stop buying expensive coffee drinks. Visine-guy-voice: Wow.)

Being married to an ENTJ is great for me. We can talk for hours on end and never get bored. We have a very high level of respect for one another. Both of us have an eye for the future and we continually come up with strategies and preventative measures for taking our family where we want it to go. Traditionally defined rolls in marriage have worked great for us. Maybe that is odd for an INTJ woman, but it is working. I fit typical expectations for INTJs before marriage: tomboy as a youth, mathematically minded, aircraft mechanic, etc. Our mustang was my project car when we got married. I do not have a college degree, but I proof read everything for my ENTJ when he was working on his BS. My ENTJ is generally on board with nonconformist ideas as long as they are logical. He LOVES that I do not drag him through emotional drama the way a former girlfriend did.

I would love to find more INTJ moms to swap trade secrets. My younger sister is an INTJ too, but she has no kids yet. I'm not sure why, but I seem to come across INTJs fairly often in my tiny slice of the universe. They are usually guys though. Maybe we attract each other.
 

pumpkincat210

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I'm an INTP mother and I can identify with the OP's INTJ description very much.
I am definitely not a cookie cutter 50's mom! I do all I can to provide a comfortable life for my children, but at times I absolutely dread things other mom's love. I hate the idle chit chat at dance class and at birthday parties. I can be very outspoken about school policies and the time wasted at school group meetings. I have strong beliefs about their health care and I'm very knowledgeable on the subject of medicine, which I believe some doctors find a bit annoying, especially if I point something out I think would be better (I have not had one second guess me).
I'm not a very affectionate person, but I do hug and kiss my children sometimes. I take the approach "figure it out" with them. My parents pampered me too much in my own opinion and that shielded me from the world and I don't want my kids to be unprepared. Much of the things in our lives should be learned earlier rather than later and not with our hands held the entire time.
They are growing up quite nicely. Honor roll, happy, popular, kind, interested in a variety of subjects and they have thick skins. They are also much more outgoing than I was as a child, hopefully this will continue into their adult lives.
 

TimeAsylums

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Anybody know a mother or other female that is an INTJ?
Mine.
What is she like?
When she attempts to interfere, annoying.
But seriously, not your typical "lovey dove huggy" mother, this benefits me greatly as an NT, and being an I she is far less intrusive than others, she mainly leaves me to my devices. Tbh I imagine any F would find her coldhearted and unloving and horrible mother, but because she does not intrude on me nearly as much as anyone, she is acceptable.


Does she fit or not fit the gender norms?
She has been in the US ARMY for 20 years. You tell me.

Did she become a cuddly snuggly motherly sort when she had a kid?
She stayed out of my way, I have lived over half of my life not having to deal with my parents, for example, for two years I lived in California alone while my ESTP father was deployed in Germany and my mother in South Korea. So, no.

Any strengths or weaknesses when it comes to providing emotional support?
The hilarious thing, no one in my family requires any form of emotional support, also we all suck at offering it. There exists not a single F dom or aux in my family (ESTP father, INTJ mother, ISTJ sister, ENTP self) Besides the ISTJ we are all massively individualistic.

Being a J I imagine anyway, regarding her:

She always has to be making things neat, correct. She much prefers being at work than being at home, she wakes up at 4 am, leaves by 5am, comes home at 7-8pm. I couldn't care less seeing as neither of us require interaction between each other, but for the sake of discussing the female INTJ. She hates when things are open ended. When we were on vacation in Costa Rica, staying a relatives house, while everyone else was sitting in rocking chairs outside (including me), she was cleaning up their goddamn living room. Whatever makes ya happy! (whatever floats your boat, I mean)

As far as I am aware, relaxing and vacation are not in her top 10 hobbies.


Her forum of humor:

"I love you" is rarely said in our household, whether that be just because, or departing, or deploying:

Anyway, when she was deploying for a two year deployment to Afghanistan she said "Oh, and if I die, you guys only get this amount from the life insurance" She smiled and laughed a little, and we all laughed a little. I don't think she said "I love you" to father, sister or myself as she left, but neither did we.

...lol.


As you stated, she does care, so do we, we just show it in immensely different ways from the conventional/general accepted norm. Our family is a collective unit existent solely for the purpose of furthering each single unit's chance of expanding.

Also, regarding emotional things, I am 99% positive that none of us shows our weak side, not because of fear of being seen as weak or judged or whatever, but we just don't. She (actually all of us) doesn't call when she is away, neither do we, maybe a check in from time to time to make sure we are all still alive to make sure the unit is still functioning, otherwise eh.

It's generally accepted we all have our own personal ideas/values/goals, and we just roll with it.
 

scorpiomover

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Mine is known for being coldhearted and having the emotional sympathy of a slug. That's more of a joke in my house than reality. She isn't cold-hearted but she's not the hugs and kisses type by any stretch of the imagination. She does care but she shows it through providing her family with utilitarian things not emotional displays of affection. Need a car? She'll find you a cheap one that looks like shit but is reliable. Need money and can't pay the rent? She'll find a job opening for you to apply for plus whatever she's got in her pocket. (we've never had much money) Need food? She'll run out and buy you groceries making sure they are healthy bulk things you can cook with and stretch for longer than a bag of potato chips. Need a hug and a shoulder to cry on? She freezes up. My father has always been the emotional center of my childhood home. My mother was the functional one who made sure the bills got paid and we had food to eat. It's a little bit of a gender switch.
Sounds very much like an ISTJ mother, except that ISTJs need to be begged to do something out of their comfort zone.
 
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I made my mom take the test. She got an intj.

She isn't very emotional. And she does provide for my needs. Like, everything. Unless, it has to do with feelings.

We never talk about relationships or make up. We mostly talk about facts. We talk about anatomy, geography, history, constellations... etc.

And at work... She has no close friends. Because she cannot stand their gossip.
 

chenry35

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I am an intj mother. I feel as though I could almost fit the profile of an infj when it comes to my daughter. Almost. I am very affectionate with her although I have to admit it's likely partly because I am are of my personality and my weak areas. I don't think my weaknesses shud negatively impact my daughter. So I hug her all the time and try my very best to meet her emotional needs she is 13. What I find I struggle with the most is identifying and understanding what those emotional needs might be. My daughter is an enfj. She's one if the kindest most thoughtful loving and sensitive people I have ever met. I don't want my emotional deficiencies to change that so I read books about communication and teenagers and feelings etc. I find that I can almost never never accurately predict how she will feel about anything. What seems to work for us is her willingness to dumb things down for me. If I ask lots of questions and pay close attention to changes in her mood or behavior I do OK. The way I see it is that I'm just plain dumb when it comes to emotions. I'm very open about that with her and because she's so kind and thoughtful we r able to work together to have a great relationship. That being said I am not able to put forth that effort with anyone else. I am a single mom, my ex husband has mental illness and drug problems. My daughter and I have been on our own since she was 3 months old.
 

TMills27

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ESTJ or ISTJ mother (or stepmom, since 4)

She found me to be a pathetic piece of shit, a thing that revolted her greatly. Something so disgusting, she couldn't stand being near me. She often exclaimed that one look of my face would make her sick. That is the way it was for years, until she finally rid herself of my filthy presence at 15years old. I have been fortunate to never hear of her again since.

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My friend is an INTJ and she is a mother. I'd say she does well. She is very informed and does tons of researching about parenting. She gets quite upset though when her child strays away from her idealization of someone going into STEM. She is somewhat pressuring her kid to be a scientist or engineer, when it seems clear that the child is going to be someone quite different than what she expects.

I try telling her my advice, but she is very opinionated, and can get very heated. So I stay quiet. I trust things will work out.
 

littleanubis

Redshirt
Local time
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Joined
Sep 1, 2014
Messages
11
Location
Connecticut
My mother is INTJ enneagram 8w9. I'm pretty sure my step father is an ENFP 9. She's a bit more emotional now that she married my step father. She used to always be in get stuff done mode 24/7. The woman never gives herself a break. And nothing rests when she's in get stuff done mode, you just kind of get bulldozed (some things that really aren't high priority just need to be done when she wants, just because she says so, so everyone around her gets busted in to task mode). On the plus side she's a great cook, is frugal, saves her money for travel (and brings me with), and is a good advice person.

We get along now that I am older, but I used to always run, cry, and hide from her when I was a kid. Never really got much emotional support, so I ended up being quite the loner as I aged, I don't respond very well to emotional support when it is given to me, I just get confused. We really do get along well now that I am older.
 
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