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Independence

Oblivious

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I was just wondering as well, about how we relate towards our nationality.

Personally, I am quite different from the average person in my country. I live in Singapore, and I find that its quite common for new acquaintances to ask whether or not I was a foreigner or lived in another country for an extended period of time.

It's probably because of the way I speak. My accent actually sounds like a mix of American/British and at times, Australian. I'd say its because I occupy more of my thoughts on writing and read material on the internet.

Also, I tend to be ambivalent towards authority, while most of us tend to worship and fear it. This has not worked out too well in the army at times, but my commanders like it that I get jobs done well and on time, so its not much of a problem.

What about you guys? Perhaps if you're American, European or Australian language would not matter much. What I really want to know is the effect independent thinking common in intps has on the way they approach their culture.

Intps tend to be very much the same because, I postulate, we derive our values and ideas internally while most other people like, esfjs for instance, make decisions based on their environment. Therefore even though they share the same type they may hold vastly different values. Yes the environment does affect intps to an extent, but ultimately not by much.

Is this true? Do intps identify more with those who share their nationality or those who share their values?
 

Fleur

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It's probably because of the way I speak. My accent actually sounds like a mix of American/British and at times, Australian. I'd say its because I occupy more of my thoughts on writing and read material on the internet.

The Internet is the cause why I can say that I'm bilinqual in my mind - if you had an ability to hear my thoughts, they would sound like an English-Latvian mess. It's because there are terms I know only in English, and there are terms I know only in Latvian. Yes, it's pestilent when I have to do the actual talking.

What about you guys? Perhaps if you're American, European or Australian language would not matter much.
I would wish to say that language doesn't matter... but it can have a great impact if used as a political weapon.

Intps tend to be very much the same because, I postulate, we derive our values and ideas internally while most other people like, esfjs for instance, make decisions based on their environment. Therefore even though they share the same type they may hold vastly different values. Yes the environment does affect intps to an extent, but ultimately not by much.

Is this true? Do intps identify more with those who share their nationality or those who share their values?
For me it would be the second option.
Besides in nowdays determining somebody's nationality can be quite problematic (with the nowday traveling opportunities the all world has become a big nationality mixing pot), and after all it's a thing we can't prepossess but our values (even if they're influenced by the culture) are completely determined by our own minds, therefore - they can be changed as the life goes on.
Basically, nationality alone doesn't mean anything.
 

boku

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My goodness, a fellow Singaoporean. :O It's most likely because of the way you speak, no one ever asked if I came from another country. Is it possible that you watch more foreign productions compared to local productions?

As for authority, it's pretty much obvious that Singapore's more towards communism than democracy even though the government states that it's democracy... Gum ban anyone? :D I choose to stick to most because I think I'll waste less energy than to outright break rules and have to deal with the authorities later on. I only break rules when I think I can get away with it. *coughdownloadanimecough* I do complain a lot, cut corners and laugh at some of the rules though.

As for culture in Singapore, I don't really notice or care, but one thing for sure is, it's seriously lacking in the art scene. Being in a game design and development course in polytechnic, I'm looking at the prospects and am considering migration.

For the last question, I think INTPs identify more with those who share their values. Afterall, there's the internet and globalisation, and the younger generations have been influenced a lot more by views of people from other countries as opposed to the older generations. This gave us more room to and see things from various standpoint and have us wondering if our views (or the government's) are correct.

So... do you have any plans for migration? :D *shot*

Oh, and I have been wondering....
Location: In your box, Stealing your Mystica
Does 'Mystica' have anything to do with 'Rosa Mystica' in Rozen Maiden?
 

Oblivious

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Boku: This is a smaller picture of my wallpaper desu.

I've also never ever met a person with a mirror image of my views towards Singapore. I've always suspected that I had this biased for individuality that was clouding my judgment, but your post goes a long way towards assuaging that.

Yes I do intend to spend long periods of time in other countries, but whether I would migrate is another question. For the record, I will be starting a game development degree course (RTIS) in Digipen in 2010, and it seems to me that Singapore has excellent potential for development.

Sure the market and the population are not completely conducive, but there's a lot of investment going into that area, from our gahmen no less. Maybe Singapore as a country has no culture or arts, but maybe then it is up to people like us to forge one through our skills in game development?

To be a pioneer in one of the market's emerging fields is quite exciting for me actually.
 

loveofreason

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I think we value independence from our culture. (Nation)

I know I do. Patriotism rather sickens me.

We certainly don't tolerate "the un-examined life", a trait which leads us to question the very basis of the societies of which we are part. I think a happy INTP is one that has managed to carve out their own cultural domain where they don't have to adhere to non-sensical values - that means finding others to whom they relate.

I'm stuck for now in SFJ domain, but there is a constant derisive commentary in my mind helping be keep sane around the sheeple that are, by some fickle joke, my blood relations.

It will be Australia day here very soon. As meaningless to me as anything could be, but the relies are talking about taking my son the the Australia Day celebrations. First I bit my tongue, knowing they feel me to be a bully and that spouting out my opinion never has and never will open their eyes to the world beyond their hamster wheel.

Then I managed to ask "oh, what does that involve?" They described lantern parades, shadow-puppet theatres and barbecues. Neglecting the barbecue bit it sounded exactly like the mid-winter solstice celebration I used to enjoy in my old town. I said so.

"oh, we don't have solstices here" scorned my aunt.

I barely managed to withhold something caustic... they are so xenophobic they have special dispensation to exclude the passages of nature from occuring in their little town? Really.

As for the local culture...

I may as well be floating in deep space for all I have the chance of finding a stimulating intellect around here.

Sorry I've rambled a bit there... no, I feel no allegiance to my culture or my nation. My body is trapped within it, at least for now, but my mind never can be. Independant thinking can't be contained in a box.
 

boku

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Boku: This is a smaller picture of my wallpaper desu.

I've also never ever met a person with a mirror image of my views towards Singapore. I've always suspected that I had this biased for individuality that was clouding my judgment, but your post goes a long way towards assuaging that.

Yes I do intend to spend long periods of time in other countries, but whether I would migrate is another question. For the record, I will be starting a game development degree course (RTIS) in Digipen in 2010, and it seems to me that Singapore has excellent potential for development.

Sure the market and the population are not completely conducive, but there's a lot of investment going into that area, from our gahmen no less. Maybe Singapore as a country has no culture or arts, but maybe then it is up to people like us to forge one through our skills in game development?

To be a pioneer in one of the market's emerging fields is quite exciting for me actually.

SAVED. :D Boku no wallpaper: http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b302/lutari/513140a5cb01901b43638cb6877899db.jpg
You can pretty much guess my favourite character. Now I'm curious, which Rozen Maiden do you like best? Or there's no preference over any?

I'm tempted to migrate, but my parents will say otherwise. I'm still indecisive about my future and wonder if I'm capable enough to survive and even stand out in the game industry.
Sidetracking a bit to what I think about my place in the game the industry in Singapore, actually, the game industry on the whole...
A few days ago, I asked my lecturer if it was wise for me to pursue in an art career as even though I above average in drawing compared to the class, I don't think I can compare to artists I watch and admire on deviantart. I wasn't even comparing myself with artists on conceptart, I didn't even dare to. I have a friend of the same age in an art school in Singapore and his artwork is comparable to that of my art lecturer. Also, I have no interest in drawing humans and prefer to draw animals instead, which is not what the industry wants.
The reply I got back from my lecturer wasn't what I expected, but it boosted my confidence a whole lot. Those aren't what he said word for word, but the gist of it is there.
"'You have been comparing yourself to the wrong people. Great artists on deviantart have been drawing so long that it's not even funny. How long have you been drawing and how long have they been drawing? What the industry wants isn't so much about whether you are specifically able to draw humans or not, but your foundations on form. The reason why experienced artists are able to make a picture look good without messing up the proportions compared to an inexperienced artist having all the proportions there but having it not looking good is because of a build up of tricks they picked up through drawing so much. And that, can't be taught. As with any skills you learn, the learning curve is great at first and when you are pretty much at the peak, it gets harder to refine and improve that skill. Chances are, you'll be able to catch up to the standard of that art student given enough time. You are still a student and at a learning stage. There's plenty of time for you to experiment and draw. If you are so insistent on comparing yourself to others to see where you stand, compare yourself to your peers, the year 2s and year 3s."

After that chat with my lecturer, I realised that I might have lurked around art sites too much and made myself think that the average 'standard' needed from students are much higher than they should be. Guess I have been thinking too much about the future and wondering if I'm able to reach the industry's standards without actually trying hard enough. But... I'm just deceiving myself and trying not to compare to people from other countries?

This might just be me being cynical about the industry here, but yeah, I do hope someone, something, or some event changes my opinion about it. Singapore has a Western economy but Eastern community, we take both the good and bad from both sides. The gahmen (lol) sure is taking steps to help build the art scene here in Singapore and I sure do appreciate their actions, but changing our community's mindset is a different thing. People interested in the art scene might not dare venture in it due to the 'kiasu' and 'kiasi' values being constantly reminded and about the instabilities of the industry. Even my parents, especially my mum, keeps advising me against going into the game industry, ask me where I plan to go, what happens if I'm not able to find a job. To the point that we quarrel about it and she'll just end up losing her cool and say "you might as well quit poly now and go get a job as a road sweeper."

Um... am I hijacking the thread with a different topic? So sorry if I got carried away.

And I think the majority of the people who go for the national day parade are only there for the free goodie bags. :p

Edit: May 27th... o_O Mine's just one day later than yours.
 

Luzian

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If INTPs are anything like me, they would not subscribe to any cultural behavior. INTPs are about seeking truth and being original. An INTP being cut by the cookie-cutters of culture, is going to feel some pain.

Culture != INTP
Culture == anti-INTP
 

Oblivious

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Now I'm curious, which Rozen Maiden do you like best? Or there's no preference over any?

She'd be in my wallpaper. Evil women turn me on big time. Maybe its because I am an aspiring evil mastermind myself.

I've had that problem you've had with my parents before. The trick to them getting off your case is to show that you are essentially a responsible and mature individual with your own future in mind. Once you prove that to them beyond a shadow of a doubt, the freedom you will enjoy will make the effort well worth it. My mom is still clingy sometimes, but that's her prerogative.

For instance, I have a 10 year plan, which I put together in roughly five minutes, which was nonetheless well thought out. The pieces were sitting in my mind already for some time, I just fixed them together in a coherent fashion.

It goes something like this: Just got my poly diploma, going into National Service. I am 21 now. Once my NS is over I will be 23, then I'll immediately be starting my four year degree course in Digipen (They are holding a place for me for 2 years). Once I have my degree I will be 27, following which I will work for three years in the industry. Then at 30, I will start a company. Be it independent or an organisation with people, that is something I really want to aspire for.

The main question here is my ability and the relevance of my diploma to my chosen degree, which the naysayers constantly bring up. Strangely, I have endless amounts of confidence in that.

One big reason is that I managed, from a 6 month course in C programming and self learning, to create a smooth functioning combat engine in 3 months (relevant to a course in simulation). I then submitted that as part of my application material and got accepted into a degree course which was mainly programming while my diploma was mostly general engineering (Mechatronics).

The only reason I was able to do this is because I wanted the degree a whole lot. I wanted to be a game developer because I love games and was completely sold on the idea of having a job fueled by passion and interest in the aspects of the job and not just for the sake of earning money.

I have little reason for believing so, but I am strongly confident that you have your own good reasons for pursuing your interests. All you have to do is develop them and present them to your parents. They seem to believe you are going to become some degenerate because they do not know about your field. Educate them.
 

boku

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She'd be in my wallpaper. Evil women turn me on big time. Maybe its because I am an aspiring evil mastermind myself.

If you like her tsundere moments, I highly suggest that you listen to the drama cds. xD

For instance, I have a 10 year plan, which I put together in roughly five minutes, which was nonetheless well thought out. The pieces were sitting in my mind already for some time, I just fixed them together in a coherent fashion.
I said that out verbally to my mum before, she seemed to accept it for a while (after a few dampening words) but alas, it was short term. Thanks for the suggestion, I guess I'll start writing it down instead.

One big reason is that I managed, from a 6 month course in C programming and self learning, to create a smooth functioning combat engine in 3 months (relevant to a course in simulation). I then submitted that as part of my application material and got accepted into a degree course which was mainly programming while my diploma was mostly general engineering (Mechatronics).
Wow, that's indeed a huge amount of passion you got there. I love how logical programming is and to see something you spent quite a bit of time work out well is really rewarding, but I never got the interest to debug.

The only reason I was able to do this is because I wanted the degree a whole lot. I wanted to be a game developer because I love games and was completely sold on the idea of having a job fueled by passion and interest in the aspects of the job and not just for the sake of earning money.
I got into my course through dpa (direct poly admission) because another poly with a course which was more geared towards drawing and animation did not accept me then. This is actually the first time I let my interest decide which route in education I want to go, and I'm already bashing myself with so many questions and uncertainties about my future.
To me, I want to lead a life which I enjoy more than not, with both my job and what I do in my spare time into consideration. The closest thing to me having an interest in being counted as 'hire material' and productive will be drawing.

Before the talk with my lecturer, my mindset was:
I'm only interested in drawing animals, none for humans. However, in order to draw animals, I need to draw humans, which I hate. That means I have to 'do something I don't enjoy' just to 'do something I enjoy' and that doesn't appeal to me at all. That, really is something I must fix. After much thought and weighing if the amount of motivation and effort I need to 'do the things I hate' in the process of doing the things I enjoy, compared to the enjoyment I get is worth it and pays off, I've come up with the conclusion that I might not be passionate enough to pursue my interest. It's worse that I'm usually extremely passive and laid back. I can be very excited about starting a project I enjoy, then lose interest easily when problems arise.
So for now, the best option is to be a teacher (oh wow). It might not be the option I choose in the end, since I'm still thinking if there's any better 'paths' to choose. I really weighed the consequences and such, seriously question myself if I have the drive to accomplish something, and came to the conclusion of being a teacher (for now). For one, it's at least more stable than most jobs, which means I'll stop worrying, and have more energy to spend on doing the things I like and maybe even be more daring in my pursuits. Secondly, since teachers have one of the longest holidays in a year, it leaves me with slightly more time to 'do the things I like' than most jobs. I might end up not liking my job, but that will the the 'thing I don't like to do' in order to 'do the things I like to do'. Who knows, I might enjoy teaching since I already have interest in Maths, Science and Art.
*Sigh* Being in a 'kiasi' culture really has made me question myself so much that I lose self-confidence easily and to the point that I appear more like a SJ.

Luckily, the chat with my lecturer alerted me that I was thinking too much about the worst case scenarios. Even he interupted me a couple of times with "Don't think about the worst that can happen, you haven't even tried!" He said that since I'm still a student, just do what I'm interested in. Chances are, because I have an interest in drawing animals, that means I'm more likely than not to practice drawing more often than my peers. (My course is pretty much 'jack of all trades, master of none' during the first year and requires us to choose which aspect of the game industry we want to specialise in by the end of year 2.)

So for now... I'll just keep drawing without fear about my future (or at least not as much) and worse come to worst (fine, sue me for being a worrywart), become a teacher. That will be the last resort and more like a safety net which I hope I don't need to resort to.

Dang, I still feel like I'm rather indecisive about my future...
 

sagewolf

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(Boku, your sig is great, you know that?) xD

I was born in America and I've lived in Ireland for pretty near exactly half my life at this point. My observations of each country are far from flattering: I feel no attachment to either of them. I do like the fourth of July, though, especially the fireworks (BOOM! FLASH! I will never get sick of them). Probably because I was born on the fourth, and until I was six or so, I believed my mom when she told me the parade was my own personal party and everyone there was a guest. :D St. Patrick's day is a day off school. It has my full and unwavering support just for that. It's also a good excuse to put colouring into food.

Patriotism in itself I don't subscribe to in the least. It's idiotic. "This country rules! Why? ...Because it's MINE!" Congratulations, you sound like a five-year-old. Being an American in Europe is really just kind of embarrassing lately: people tend to assume that you're an idiot, since most American tourists are idiots. At least, the ones you notice are. T.T
 

Ermine

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I'm born, raised, and currently living in the US. I'm also quite different from your average American, other than looking like and speaking like one.

I'd say I'm fairly independent of my nationality. All I really want from a country is that a large part of the population speak English, are stable (don't have to worry too much about economic and domestic security), and let me be free and represented. I don't love my country in the name of patriotism, just because it adequately fills the criteria for me at the moment. It's questionable if I'll be sufficiently free and represented in the future though, considering the way the US is going.
 

sagewolf

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Yeah. I'm considering moving to Australia when I'm older. The climate would be nicer, IMO. No government can be more incompetent than the Irish one. ZOMBIES would be more effective.

I speak French, too, so I could do any of the Francophone countries perfectly well. Anglophone would be my first choice, but I do speak some French, and it wouldn't take very long to become fluent if I was immersed in it.
 
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