In search of the dominant Jungian functions of Narcissists (NPD), Borderliners (BPD) and Histrionics

[SkyWalker]

In search of the dominant Jungian functions of Narcissists (NPD), Psychopaths/Anti-Socials (ASPD), Borderliners (BPD) and Histrionics (HPD)
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These cluster B personality disorders are a type-gone-wrong.

I would like to find the dominant functions of these types-gone-wrong.

My best guess:
NPD=strong(1st) Te with weak(4th) "Fi set to hate"

HPD= either weak(4th) Te with strong(1st) "Fi set to hate"
or weak(4th) Ti with strong(1st) "Fe set to hate"

BDP= either weak(4th) Te with strong(1st) "Fi set to hate"
or weak(4th) Ti with strong(1st) "Fe set to hate"

ASPD=either almost equal "Fe set to hate" (2nd or 3rd) & Ti (2nd or 3rd)
or almost equal "Fi set to hate" (2nd or 3rd) & Te (2nd or 3rd)

What is your best guess?

Which one of the either/or's do you think is most relevant and why?

 

[Da Blob]

This could help?

It seems as though the Psychologists' Bible (the DSMV) is about to undergo another translation. Personality disorders are being modified.

It is to be noted that Introversion is going to be classified as a "dysfunctional personality trait" (????)

Major changes have been proposed in the assessment and diagnosis of personality disorders.[28] These include a revamped definition of personality disorder and a dimensional rather than a categorical approach based on the severity of dysfunctional personality trait domains (negative emotionality, introversion, antagonism, disinhibition, compulsivity, and schizotypy). In addition, patients would be assessed on how much they match each of five prototypic personality disorder types: antisocial/psychopathic, avoidant, borderline, obsessive-compulsive, and schizotypal with their criteria being derived directly from the dimensional personality trait domains. Some former personality disorders, like narcissistic personality disorder and histrionic personality disorder, will be submerged under facets of various personality type domains (in this case, the narcissism and histrionism facets of antagonism).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DSM-5

 

[SkyWalker]

yes and they want narcissism out of the dsm because the dsm are a bunch of narcissists probably! haha

 

[Bryson]

I don't think narcissism is correlated with strong Te because, ime, SP's are very vulnerable to the disorder. Charlie Seen is a great example.

 

[Bryson]

I think all of those are correlated with weak introvert functions.
Si would help someone adhere to social norms.
Fi would help someone empathize with people.
Ti would help the person realize that he/she isn't acting logically.
Ni would help the person see the big picture and the real effects of his actions.
Just a theory.

 

[SkyWalker]

It's not so simple:
Si >> What if your local social norm is narcissism? What if you adhere to that?
Fi >> What about negative empathy? Feeling has 2 sides: Not just love, also hate! Thats why I said "Fi set to hate"
Ti >> I agree on this one
Ni >> It protects potential... which doesnt sound bad maybe if its in the service of mankind, but could be used for egoistic reasons too (if hate is present), protecting and hiding its own egoistic secret plan to dominate the world and enslave us all

 

[scorpiomover]

Histrionics love to be the centre of attention. They pull a hissy fit when they don't get the attention. It's primarily an EXXJ thing. The E means they want to be among people, and the J means that when they want the attention, they will do whatever they can to get it.

 

[Dimensional Transition]

This could help?

It seems as though the Psychologists' Bible (the DSMV) is about to undergo another translation. Personality disorders are being modified.

It is to be noted that Introversion is going to be classified as a "dysfunctional personality trait" (????)

What the fuck?
Introversion is now going to be a dysfunctional personality trait? I feel violated... if that's the right word...

 

[viche]

What the fuck?
Introversion is now going to be a dysfunctional personality trait? I feel violated... if that's the right word...

Introversion is now going to be called Detachment Disorder. Wonder what pills they are going to feed to the population to 'cure' it. It is also a light form of autism.

 

[xbox]

^ That's just retarded.

 

[viche]

^ That's just retarded.

I agree. People coming up with this stuff should just burn in a fire for how much of a fail these theories are.

 

[Auburn]

So SkyWalker is the new Perseus..
​

 

[SkyWalker]

So SkyWalker is the new Perseus..
​

Just trying to slay modern Cluster-B-Medusa-s into theories here

Maybe I was wrong above, I only bothered with the Judgement functions. Perception might be involved in this.

What do you guys think of ESFP/ENFP and HPD: They say that especially the ESFPs are prone to HPD.

ESFP=Se(1) Fi(2)
ENFP=Ne(1) Fi(2)

So that would make HPD a strong Se/Ne thing? Or a weak Fi-with-bad-intentions thing?

Jung on the other hand thought hysteria (which is the old name for HPD, "kind of") was Fe related. He says so in Psychological Types chapter 10 in the chapter about extraverted feeling.

 

[Tudordee]

Introversion regarded as dysfunctional personality trait.

DSM-5 will be constructed as a multidimensional spectrum model. Extreme introversion is equivalent of anti-social/autistic features.
Introversion has a bad rap, and even though I am an introvert, I believe rightfully so. It's hard to trust someone who can left alone for awhile and be perfectly fine and don't have the same needs as others to socialize. It's hard to know what's going on in their mind. People also search for patterns so when they see introversion consistently seen in dangerous criminals, it is seen with suspicion. However, introversion allows for a different degree of contemplative thought that allows for new ideas and understanding. So of course it's not dysfunctional if it does not cause dysfunction for a person. Extreme introversion can though.
Extreme extroversion has problems too and should be treated the same way, which I believe it will even though wiki does not state so. Extroversion to an extreme can cause dependency attachments as seen in Borderline Personality disorder and histrionic personality disorder.

 

[Artsu Tharaz]

I thought we just concluded that it was termed Detachment disorder, not introversion?

Calm down now.

 

[SkyWalker]

Introversion regarded as dysfunctional personality trait.

DSM-5 will be constructed as a multidimensional spectrum model. Extreme introversion is equivalent of anti-social/autistic features.
Introversion has a bad rap, and even though I am an introvert, I believe rightfully so. It's hard to trust someone who can left alone for awhile and be perfectly fine and don't have the same needs as others to socialize. It's hard to know what's going on in their mind. People also search for patterns so when they see introversion consistently seen in dangerous criminals, it is seen with suspicion. However, introversion allows for a different degree of contemplative thought that allows for new ideas and understanding. So of course it's not dysfunctional if it does not cause dysfunction for a person. Extreme introversion can though.
Extreme extroversion has problems too and should be treated the same way, which I believe it will even though wiki does not state so. Extroversion to an extreme can cause dependency attachments as seen in Borderline Personality disorder and histrionic personality disorder.

you are using the skewed/misunderstanded popular usage of introversion.
(e.g. not Jung's introversion definition and he is the one who invented the actual word).

on the other hand, maybe only the popular one is understood anyway, so you might as well...

if you want to know:
introverted feelers like social stuff.

it''s only the introverted thinkers that can disregard social stuff
- that does not make them anti-social, just a-social.

 

[Perseus]

This could help?

It seems as though the Psychologists' Bible (the DSMV) is about to undergo another translation. Personality disorders are being modified.

It is to be noted that Introversion is going to be classified as a "dysfunctional personality trait" (????)

In the Perseus System the Schizoid Personality Disorder is relabelled the Information Deficit Syndrome.

 

[naama]

In this article jungian analyst makes these connections:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1465-5922.1988.00329.x/abstract

Te type: schizoid
Ti type: avoidant
Fe type: histrionic
Fi type: depedant
Se type: passive aggressive
Si type: compulsive
Ne type: antisocial
Ni type: narcissistic

but other article looking purely at MBTI type and pd correlations give bit different results:
Antisocial): N**, T**, P**
Avoidant): I**
Borderline): N**, P**
(Dependant): I**
(Depressive): I**, T**
(Histrionic): E**, F**
Narcissistic): N*
Obsessive-compulsive): I**, S*, T**, J**
Paranoid): I**, T**
Passive-agressive): I*, N*, P**
(Sadistic): N*, T**, P**
Self-defeating): I**, N**
Schizoid): I**, T**
(Schizotypal): I**, N**, T**, P**
(*p < .05, **p < .01)
http://www.uccs.edu/~faculty/dsegal...igation-Jungs-types-and-PD-features-JPT-2.pdf

 

[SkyWalker]

In the Perseus System the Schizoid Personality Disorder is relabelled the Information Deficit Syndrome.

information deficit sounds like lack of perception function, e.g. a judgement-dom

 

[SkyWalker]

In this article jungian analyst makes these connections:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1465-5922.1988.00329.x/abstract

Te type: schizoid
Ti type: avoidant
Fe type: histrionic
Fi type: depedant
Se type: passive aggressive
Si type: compulsive
Ne type: antisocial
Ni type: narcissistic

but other article looking purely at MBTI type and pd correlations give bit different results:
Antisocial): N**, T**, P**
Avoidant): I**
Borderline): N**, P**
(Dependant): I**
(Depressive): I**, T**
(Histrionic): E**, F**
Narcissistic): N*
Obsessive-compulsive): I**, S*, T**, J**
Paranoid): I**, T**
Passive-agressive): I*, N*, P**
(Sadistic): N*, T**, P**
Self-defeating): I**, N**
Schizoid): I**, T**
(Schizotypal): I**, N**, T**, P**
(*p < .05, **p < .01)
http://www.uccs.edu/~faculty/dsegal...igation-Jungs-types-and-PD-features-JPT-2.pdf

actually INTPs are known for being schizoids. thus schizoids would be Ti-dom related, not Te-dom like you state.

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narcissism in sam vaknin's (my favorite expert) classification is divided in cerebral narcissists (the real narcissists) and somatic narcissists (the body-related narcissists, also known as histrionics).

the cerebral ones are of course thinkers. And since its pragmatic/superfiscial thinking and not deep, its Te and not Ti.

TeNi would be more grandiose/megalomaniacal
TeSi would be less grandiose/megalomaniacal
Thus TeNi is the best candidate for narcissism

--

the histrionic/somatic ones could be Fe's or Se's, I have reasons for both, but I am still in doubt. It can't be both of them in the first 2 functions though (according to MBTI function ordering), so it must be related to either one of them.
I see Se as a primitive/instinctive form of Te in this matter, thus making the narcissism more body/sensation related, thus making it histrionic
However Jung's opinion (psych. types, chap 10) was that Fe-dom is hysteria related (hysteria is the old name for histrionic personality disorder, kind of). But maybe hysteria and histrionic is not the exactly same actually and this is the confusion I have with what jung said.

 

[naama]

actually INTPs are known for being schizoids. thus schizoids would be Ti-dom related, not Te-dom like you state.

---

narcissism in sam vaknin's (my favorite expert) classification is divided in cerebral narcissists (the real narcissists) and somatic narcissists (the body-related narcissists, also known as histrionics).

the cerebral ones are of course thinkers. And since its pragmatic/superfiscial thinking and not deep, its Te and not Ti.

TeNi would be more grandiose/megalomaniacal
TeSi would be less grandiose/megalomaniacal
Thus TeNi is the best candidate for narcissism

--

the histrionic/somatic ones could be Fe's or Se's, I have reasons for both, but I am still in doubt. It can't be both of them in the first 2 functions though (according to MBTI function ordering), so it must be related to either one of them.
I see Se as a primitive/instinctive form of Te in this matter, thus making the narcissism more body/sensation related, thus making it histrionic
However Jung's opinion (psych. types, chap 10) was that Fe-dom is hysteria related (hysteria is the old name for histrionic personality disorder, kind of). But maybe hysteria and histrionic is not the exactly same actually and this is the confusion I have with what jung said.

Hysteria isnt some old name for histrionic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hysteria

Anyways, what i posted isnt some opinion that i have formed myself. they are simply copied from what those two articles say. i got two more articles on the subject on my computer/phone.

i wrote a research plan on psychological reseaech course about the subject and did look all articles i could find on the subject and looked quite alot into PDs while writing it, so i kinda have some knowledge on the subject.

Why should i listen to what you are saying instead of listening what empirical studies and jungian analyst says, when you clearly dont have much understanding on the subject(thinking hysteria = histrionic)?

What makes you say that INTPs are known to be schizoid? is this some deduction of your own or is it actually based on some research? i kinda doubt its based on research since i looked up ever article on subject i could find and i got a search engine from school i can use that lets me view articles that you would normally have to pay and searches all databases for scientific articles and i couldnt find this info you claim to be the case.

The second article(thats awailable for public unlike the first) says that schizoid correlates on I and T dichtonomies in MBTI, but that would mean ISTJ INTJ ISTP INTP. but i dont really like this sort of looking at correlations on MBTI dichtonomies, simply because it might miss some correlation as it puts all types with I(for example) to same group. schizotypal on the other hand did correlate clearly to all I N T and P dichtonomies, pointing out that other types than INTPs arent schizotypal.

Also. where did you get your info on PDs?

 

[legwork]

My aunt and her son have NPD... sad disorder.

Aunt: she's been VERY hard to type, J is strong.. ESTJ, ENFJ, or ESFJ
Cousin: ESFJ

 

[SkyWalker]

Hysteria isnt some old name for histrionic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hysteria

I said "kind of" if you read it well.

Hysteria was a catch-all kind of disorder, but it was basically used for females who "put on a show". E.g. theatrical actors who exaggerate. Hysteric females would complain about pains that dont exist (to get pity etc).
The diagnosis Hysteria does not exist any more, it was too broad. Complaining about pains that dont exist is nowadays specifically called somatization disorder. The symptons of somatization disorder are part of histrionic personality disorder. So histrionic personality disorder = somatization + more (all other ways to put on a show as well)

just like hystria was somatization + more.
that is where my comparison comes from.

histrionics are attention whores basically and that includes fishing for pity using non-existing pains

and what hysteria was? just too broad. so you can never really compare hysteria to something else.

 

[Ska]

I think most personality disorders can be found in any type, however I do view BPD as almost an extreme (or at least unhealthy) version of Se. A major characteristic of the disorder is using splitting (putting things into black and white categories) to either idealize or devalue objects. This to me implies an extreme lack of an N function. A lacking or disturbed self-concept and poor ability to infer the mental states of others are two others. I think these imply a lack of introverted perception and introverted intuition, respectively.

 

[SkyWalker]

I think most personality disorders can be found in any type, however I do view BPD as almost an extreme (or at least unhealthy) version of Se. A major characteristic of the disorder is using splitting (putting things into black and white categories) to either idealize or devalue objects. This to me implies an extreme lack of an N function. A lacking or disturbed self-concept and poor ability to infer the mental states of others are two others. I think these imply a lack of introverted perception and introverted intuition, respectively.

splitting is a judgement, not a perception. (although perception can be in service of judgement in JePi and JiPe)


idealize=love, devalue=hate
the splitting of neutral thinking into love and hate is simply called feeling.

T-doms are unable to acquire borderline.

 

[Ska]

splitting is a judgement, not a perception. (although perception can be in service of judgement in JePi and JiPe)


idealize=love, devalue=hate
the splitting of neutral thinking into love and hate is simply called feeling.

I would argue that splitting involves how things are stored/recalled (in this case affect), and therefore that BPD involves poor Pi functioning. Also , wouldn't you agree that S dominants like black and white categories (a staple of splitting) while N dominants prefer the grey area?

How do T and F account for a poor/disturbed self-concept? How do they account for the inability to infer the mental states of others?

T-doms are unable to acquire borderline.

What is the basis for this claim?

And no matter who is right here (probably neither of us due to the complexity of the brain and PDs), this thread is oversimplifying things greatly. What makes you think each and every personality disorder corresponds to a single type or function?

 

[naama]

I said "kind of" if you read it well.

Hysteria was a catch-all kind of disorder, but it was basically used for females who "put on a show". E.g. theatrical actors who exaggerate. Hysteric females would complain about pains that dont exist (to get pity etc).
The diagnosis Hysteria does not exist any more, it was too broad. Complaining about pains that dont exist is nowadays specifically called somatization disorder. The symptons of somatization disorder are part of histrionic personality disorder. So histrionic personality disorder = somatization + more (all other ways to put on a show as well)

just like hystria was somatization + more.
that is where my comparison comes from.

histrionics are attention whores basically and that includes fishing for pity using non-existing pains

and what hysteria was? just too broad. so you can never really compare hysteria to something else.

Someatization disorder isnt about complaining about non existant pain.. its about experiencing pain(or other physiological disorders) that doesent have any physiological cause, but are originated from psychological causes.

Histrionic disorder doesent include this, but includes acting over dramatically on minor stuff, psychological or physiological, but these two doesent mix like in somatization disorder.

 

[SkyWalker]

What makes you think each and every personality disorder corresponds to a single type or function?

I never said that. You stretch it to an extreme variant.

I only said that borderline can only run on F-doms.

Thinking is neutral to love/hate.

Feeling has 2 sides : love and hate. (e.g. help and oppose)

Borderline has love of the feeling funciton linked to something non-existing (in fantasy only, e.g. idealize), therefor love is non-functional. only hate operates in borderline.

narcissism is similar as the above, as in love non-functional and hate functional. but the narcissist is a T-dom and thus the hate is only in the background of neutral thinking.

both narcissism and borderline are disorders of "hate for all others". they run on the same mechanism, the only difference is that one is T-Dom and the other is F-dom.

narcissism requires T as well as F, it does not run on 1 function, but it requires T-dom.

 

[SkyWalker]

Also , wouldn't you agree that S dominants like black and white categories (a staple of splitting) while N dominants prefer the grey area?

I only half-agree with that.
S sees actual facts, in all colors, not black-white.

it is really about judgement and not about perception, it is not called black-white THINKING for nothing. blackwhite thinking = group-thinking = feeling

You probably mean SFs instead of S-doms.
read profiles of STs and you'll see "proof" they are not black-white. It is the T-dom that makes them non-blackwhite. T operates neutrally in the gray area.

but i guess it might be true that there are more SF borderliners than NF borderliners. there are more S-es in the world anyway haha!

maybe N does serve as a kind of protection againt all-hate like borderline, because it increases world view.