• OK, it's on.
  • Please note that many, many Email Addresses used for spam, are not accepted at registration. Select a respectable Free email.

I hate writing these things

Local time
Today, 05:35
Joined
Jul 10, 2015
Messages
21
#1
I'm another [newly figured out] INTP to add to the pile. I'm 31, female, Christian (although constantly questioning and poking around). I love to read, investigate, take photos (nearly always of nature), listen to music. I always love something new to plunge into and learn about. :D
 
Local time
Today, 05:35
Joined
Jul 10, 2015
Messages
21
#5
Hello

Christianity is something I idealize but feel like Peter so often sinking.
I love it yet I find it so very frustrating. Sometimes I do better viewing it as philosophy rather than religion. The religious side (in my mind) of church attendance, dealing with people, getting locked into one theology for a lifetime are difficult things.
 
Local time
Today, 05:35
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
412
#6
Anything particular about Christianity you like? What do you think its philosophical strengths are?
 
Local time
Today, 05:35
Joined
Jul 10, 2015
Messages
21
#8
Anything particular about Christianity you like? What do you think its philosophical strengths are?
I have always been fascinated by how Jesus constantly refers back to the heart, the soil, the foundation, the roots in determining how good or bad a person is. Modern Christianity seems to take the tack of working from the outside in, but Jesus refers to inside out. Then there's the railing against the religious system of the day, again referring to the heart (cleaning the outside of the cup while still being filthy inside). A bit sad that no time was wasted in turning Christianity into another form of the same old problem.

So, I think it's a great strength how Jesus pushes to examine the heart, the motives, etc instead of just acting rightly. A good heart will produce good things.

It's interesting that you identify as being a Christian as much as being 31y/o Female. :rolleyes:

I'd be like 31, Male, Bad-ass! :facepalm:
I think it comes from it being perpetually present in my life as an interest (interest? obsession? I don't know.) and from being surrounded by Christians. If I was as interested in politics as I used to be, I would have tacked on Libertarian or some such title too. (As it is, I am more interested in economics than politics.)
 
Local time
Today, 10:35
Joined
May 16, 2015
Messages
6,299
Location
Birmingham, UK
#9
Welcome, I can relate to your sentiments in regards to Jesus.
 
Local time
Today, 05:35
Joined
Jul 10, 2015
Messages
21
#13
what's your take on original sin? what does it refer to, allegorically?:cat:
I am struck by human nature in general. People like to say religion is evil, but the problems I see are not limited to religion. It's a problem of what people do with the ideas and knowledge that they have. Do they use it to improve themselves? Do they turn it outwards to control and dominate people around them? (Turning ideas outwards can be good, but only if the inside is dealt with first.) It's like any tool. Give someone a hammer, and they can either build something with it or kill their next door neighbor.

I have seen the concept that perhaps God would have allowed Adam and Eve to eat from the Tree of Knowledge once they had further matured. (It seems pointless to put the tree there if he didn't have some kind of use for it.) Maybe that is why the knowledge was a bad thing: they weren't ready to handle it.
 

Rook

Verily.
Local time
Today, 12:35
Joined
Aug 14, 2013
Messages
1,798
#14
Building a mausoleum for all your neighbors is actually a decent compromise when this moral dilemma arises.
 

onesteptwostep

Think.. Be... ..buzz buzz :)
Local time
Today, 18:35
Joined
Dec 7, 2014
Messages
2,801
#17
Welcome welcome, the majority of the forum are atheists or agnostics, so if you're a shade of a theist then it might be a bit unsettling ^_~
 

cheese

Prolific Member
Local time
Today, 20:35
Joined
Aug 24, 2008
Messages
3,184
Location
internet/pubs
#18
Please stick around. You've got interesting points on religion from an insider's perspective, and you'd be a nice counter to the other openly religious people we've had here inappropriately quoting verses at everyone. We need some reasonable representation from the other side, and some different perspectives.

Welcome!
 

TheAdditional1

The Pharaohs Advocate
Local time
Today, 02:35
Joined
Jul 12, 2015
Messages
65
Location
Non-utopia
#19
It's kind of funny to me that Christianity was just one part of your introduction, and that is what the entire thread fixated on. Haha. Anyway to me religion is like a gun - it depends on how you use it. And most people abuse it - either for power or as a brainwashed excuse to think neither rationally or independently.

It's a egregious coincidence to me that God stopped speaking to us and extending the Bible/Quran etc. right as more people became able to read and write themselves (Torah is older so I'm not subjecting it to such subjectivity).

What I hate is that religion just seems like a way to arbitrarily make society work better. Take most rule and commandments, and compare them to a list of things that could make a community work, and they will be identical, save any "Because God said so" wording. Don't kill = social bonds. Don't commit adultery = paternal confirmation. Don't lie = build trust in community, more social bonds. Etc.

Look closely enough and you'll see that many rules that don't quite stand the test of time are strangely aligned with the interests of those in power at the time. Or even to the local area - is it a coincidence that the middle eastern religious attire also happen to be the best attire for living in the desert? Long sleeved white shirts and turbans/head coverings that conveniently help prevent sunburn.

Like, just take general optimistic social codes and the whims of those in power and add "Because God said so" and you have a religious text. And unfortunately it seems that there would be an incredible amount of morally deprived people if not for religion, so sometimes I just see religion as a cage for wild animals.



Coping with fear of death is another reason for it, yes.


Anyway, good to meet you, RogueDoll. I'm new too. I'll try to be more concise as time goes by.
 
Last edited:
Local time
Today, 05:35
Joined
Apr 11, 2014
Messages
1,077
#20
First, welcome to the forum!

I am struck by human nature in general. People like to say religion is evil, but the problems I see are not limited to religion. It's a problem of what people do with the ideas and knowledge that they have. Do they use it to improve themselves? Do they turn it outwards to control and dominate people around them? (Turning ideas outwards can be good, but only if the inside is dealt with first.) It's like any tool. Give someone a hammer, and they can either build something with it or kill their next door neighbor.

I have seen the concept that perhaps God would have allowed Adam and Eve to eat from the Tree of Knowledge once they had further matured. (It seems pointless to put the tree there if he didn't have some kind of use for it.) Maybe that is why the knowledge was a bad thing: they weren't ready to handle it.
You have an interesting perspective. I hope you don't mind if I share.

Sometimes, I think of the adam and eve story figuratively. That is to say, there was no 'actual' tree, though your opinion still holds valid.

'Adam' and 'Eve' could be just another way of saying men and women. There were many of them, not just one of each. It would be a time where people were hunter-gatherers, and lived as just another species of animals. In most literature now a days, you'd hear this life-style being described as living in constant fear and survival being the most up in front of the mind. The general opinion is this life was extremely brutal, harsh, ravage and wild.

Yet the story describes adam(s) and eve(s) living in paradise. I think when you view most animals, while they do sometimes come under certain threats, most of their existence may be quite content and satisfactory. Not content as in everybody gets along and sings kumbaya, but content that they have the strengths and defenses to get by. It all comes without thought and works automatically and naturally. It was quite contrary to consistent starvation, and forever panicking about our morality. The mindset may have been so different that it's hard to describe.

The tree of knowledge is described as wisdom of the gods or maybe of how all things work. And with humans, something did change. It seems we started getting very fearful of almost everything. About if there is enough to eat, if enough people were having enough sex to advance the generations, about our security from pedators and thieves, about god, the universe, and our own life and death.

Evil problems springing out like crazy everywhere, and we attempted to fix them with farming and agriculture, building societies bordered of thick walls, moving rivers, locking our silos and hiring guards against thieves. Continually trying to obliterate the things that scare us, until sometime in the future, we will finally conquer death and live as immortal.

I didn't mean to hijack. Again welcome, I hope you enjoy our discussions.
 
Local time
Today, 03:35
Joined
Apr 4, 2010
Messages
5,768
Location
subjective
#21
Jesus was an innocent man and they killed him. This had an impact because he was teaching people how to be good. People believed because they knew this was wrong. Its not so much because God said so. But that we recognize right and wrong and those people who hate others for doing the right thing. Jesus was the central convergence of human history into one man that showed the world a better way.
 

Rook

Verily.
Local time
Today, 12:35
Joined
Aug 14, 2013
Messages
1,798
#22
Hmmm I have not reveled in my ancestor's faith for quite some time, but in retrospect this is how I remember jesus:

Jesus was a demigod cleric, who became a necromancer, who then died but became a zombie, and was summarily shifted from this plane of existence to another with a promise to return and take those who admired his magicks with him to this new, better plane.



Would make quite the role-playing campaign.
 

Alias

empirical miracle
Local time
Today, 05:35
Joined
Feb 22, 2015
Messages
692
Location
My current location is classified.
#23
Welcome to the forum. I suppose you've gotten enough questions about religion, and I don't have any questions to ask, since I completely agree with you in ideology. Let's hope you find some of our threads interesting.
 

Auburn

Luftschloss Schöpfer
Local time
Today, 02:35
Joined
Sep 26, 2008
Messages
2,289
#24
I love it yet I find it so very frustrating. Sometimes I do better viewing it as philosophy rather than religion. The religious side (in my mind) of church attendance, dealing with people, getting locked into one theology for a lifetime are difficult things.
Welcome, I can relate to your sentiments in regards to Jesus.
+1
Though Jesus (as per the gospels) was still a literalist in many ways. He believed he was the Son of God, that devils possessed people (and he cast them out), that nobody reaches the Father but through him, that heaven was a real place, and that he would come again at the end of the world.

It's a trend, I find, to strip a religion down to its philosophy... but the reality is that a religion was meant to be taken literally by those who originally wrote it. I don't think they meant their message to be a symbolic philosophy.

In this sense, I find it incorrect for people to claim affiliation with a certain religion when all they extract from it is the humanitarian, intellectual or philosophical principles they embody. Such a mental activity is a sort of independent rationalization; a creation and refinement of one's own personal paradigm.

When universal principles of life/reality are extracted from a religion, they cannot be claimed to belong to it alone. They didn't belong to that religion in the first place. It just so happens that religions embed a lot of common sense ideas and perspectives which could be better discussed on their own without affiliation to the vessel which contained and trap them into definitive forms.

TL;DR - We don't necessarily need religions at all in order to take the philosophies they (also happen to) have in them further and refine them.

So essentially there's no reason to believe in a religion unless you believe in whichever literal aspects of reality they help explain -- for example, if you believe in the Judeo-Christian God because you need an explanation for the Earth's physical origin. Otherwise it's all the realm of philosophy and ethics.
 
Local time
Today, 05:35
Joined
Jul 10, 2015
Messages
21
#25
Sorry about taking so long to reply. Real life interruptions, etc etc.

Please stick around. You've got interesting points on religion from an insider's perspective, and you'd be a nice counter to the other openly religious people we've had here inappropriately quoting verses at everyone. We need some reasonable representation from the other side, and some different perspectives.

Welcome!
Thank you. ^_^ I'm not sure how much good quoting verses does if everyone isn't on the same wavelength. One person may be able to take it on face value, another takes it as God's Word™, etc.

It's kind of funny to me that Christianity was just one part of your introduction, and that is what the entire thread fixated on. Haha. Anyway to me religion is like a gun - it depends on how you use it. And most people abuse it - either for power or as a brainwashed excuse to think neither rationally or independently.
Exactly.

It's a egregious coincidence to me that God stopped speaking to us and extending the Bible/Quran etc. right as more people became able to read and write themselves (Torah is older so I'm not subjecting it to such subjectivity).
I hadn't thought of this before. Interesting point.

Like, just take general optimistic social codes and the whims of those in power and add "Because God said so" and you have a religious text. And unfortunately it seems that there would be an incredible amount of morally deprived people if not for religion, so sometimes I just see religion as a cage for wild animals.
That's true although that doesn't explain just plain weird stuff like not mixing two kinds of fiber. Unless that was just "let's see if they'll do anything we say!" :P
 
Local time
Today, 05:35
Joined
Jul 10, 2015
Messages
21
#26
Sometimes, I think of the adam and eve story figuratively. That is to say, there was no 'actual' tree, though your opinion still holds valid.
Well, I don't think there was a literal Adam and Eve. The whole story is probably an attempt at explaining how humanity wound up where it was at the time.

The tree of knowledge is described as wisdom of the gods or maybe of how all things work. And with humans, something did change. It seems we started getting very fearful of almost everything. About if there is enough to eat, if enough people were having enough sex to advance the generations, about our security from pedators and thieves, about god, the universe, and our own life and death.

Evil problems springing out like crazy everywhere, and we attempted to fix them with farming and agriculture, building societies bordered of thick walls, moving rivers, locking our silos and hiring guards against thieves. Continually trying to obliterate the things that scare us, until sometime in the future, we will finally conquer death and live as immortal.
If I remember correctly...Maslow's hierarchy of needs comes in here. Once humanity established a secure enough foundation of where to get food and all that necessary business, they were freed to...worry themselves silly. Which makes me wonder sometimes where we will end up years down the road. Like today, our local Panera finally opened up their digital kiosks for ordering. There goes more paid work being eliminated. The population is increasing, but there's less work (or so it seems). What else will people pick up to occupy themselves with in the future? (But that's a rabbit trail for some other time. ;) )

Jesus was an innocent man and they killed him. This had an impact because he was teaching people how to be good. People believed because they knew this was wrong. Its not so much because God said so. But that we recognize right and wrong and those people who hate others for doing the right thing. Jesus was the central convergence of human history into one man that showed the world a better way.
The sad thing of it is how Jesus was like a twinkling of an eye, in a way. I was talking to a friend about how Jesus railed against the establishment of his day, yet it took no time at all after his death for the people he left behind to quickly model themselves after the very same establishment. From my reading of history, it was well before a hundred years were up.

+1
Though Jesus (as per the gospels) was still a literalist in many ways. He believed he was the Son of God, that devils possessed people (and he cast them out), that nobody reaches the Father but through him, that heaven was a real place, and that he would come again at the end of the world.
It was interesting though how he spoke of the Kingdom of Heaven/God as being present right now. Sometimes it feels like the Gospel accounts are a bit confused, and I know some (Jesus Seminar is one bunch.) who believe they were doctored to fit in with later church teachings.

It's a trend, I find, to strip a religion down to its philosophy... but the reality is that a religion was meant to be taken literally by those who originally wrote it. I don't think they meant their message to be a symbolic philosophy.

In this sense, I find it incorrect for people to claim affiliation with a certain religion when all they extract from it is the humanitarian, intellectual or philosophical principles they embody. Such a mental activity is a sort of independent rationalization; a creation and refinement of one's own personal paradigm.

When universal principles of life/reality are extracted from a religion, they cannot be claimed to belong to it alone. They didn't belong to that religion in the first place. It just so happens that religions embed a lot of common sense ideas and perspectives which could be better discussed on their own without affiliation to the vessel which contained and trap them into definitive forms.

TL;DR - We don't necessarily need religions at all in order to take the philosophies they (also happen to) have in them further and refine them.

So essentially there's no reason to believe in a religion unless you believe in whichever literal aspects of reality they help explain -- for example, if you believe in the Judeo-Christian God because you need an explanation for the Earth's physical origin. Otherwise it's all the realm of philosophy and ethics.
You're right. I'm not entirely certain of where I stand on issues of literal interpretation with Christianity. (My mind has been consumed with other areas over the last few years, and I haven't felt like tackling that just yet...I'm sure it's coming though. :P ) I hesitate to dispose of the Christian label between that uncertainty and also not being willing to incur family confusion and wrath unless absolutely necessary.
 

TheAdditional1

The Pharaohs Advocate
Local time
Today, 02:35
Joined
Jul 12, 2015
Messages
65
Location
Non-utopia
#27
That's true although that doesn't explain just plain weird stuff like not mixing two kinds of fiber. Unless that was just "let's see if they'll do anything we say!" :P

Haha true...someday I'm going to think long and hard about religion, including writing a fiction novel that'll require reading all 3 (or more) books. I will definitely have a good time trying to figure out what's behind weird things like that.

I want to write an essay someday basically splitting up the Bible into what I think is moral direction, social direction and ruler-benefiting direction.
 

TheAdditional1

The Pharaohs Advocate
Local time
Today, 02:35
Joined
Jul 12, 2015
Messages
65
Location
Non-utopia
#28
+1


When universal principles of life/reality are extracted from a religion, they cannot be claimed to belong to it alone. They didn't belong to that religion in the first place. It just so happens that religions embed a lot of common sense ideas and perspectives which could be better discussed on their own without affiliation to the vessel which contained and trap them into definitive forms.

TL;DR - We don't necessarily need religions at all in order to take the philosophies they (also happen to) have in them further and refine them.

So essentially there's no reason to believe in a religion unless you believe in whichever literal aspects of reality they help explain -- for example, if you believe in the Judeo-Christian God because you need an explanation for the Earth's physical origin. Otherwise it's all the realm of philosophy and ethics.

Forgive me this, but I believe you are vastly overestimating a lot of people in this world. I'm going to trust you all to take this in a neutral/objective tone, and know that all of this is up to your debate and dissection, but:

A lot of people just don't think very much, or on very high levels. While it benefits the leaders who wish to control the masses, it is very difficult trying to interact with them all. Mediating this pessimistic sentiment is another thought that while there are more numbers of smarter people than it may seem, they are still yet dumbed down by the merit of being social creatures. Most people somewhat familiar with social psychology/sociology will know this. Also why a lot of introverts are good independent thinkers, because we fall back on logic instead of social currents.

That said, religion does boil down to social direction. How people should think, concrete statements on how the world is, and just rules laid down with (curiously singular) anecdotes that lay down the law. And by saying "Because God said so" under the power of religion, you immediately amputate any need or reason to think it through. Trying to think things through leads to disappointment, despair, confusion, open-endedness, and fear. Not many people want this in life, and so "God will fix it in the end" it is. Not many people are capable of thinking with as much depth, and so "Because God said so" it is. Essentially it's shortcuts and elements of arbitrariness for social behavior and morals, which unfortunately many people lack. Which you basically captured in the quote I quoted you on - "common sense ideas and perspectives which could be better discussed on their own without affiliation to the vessel which contained and trap them into definitive forms."

Many people simply need those definitive forms.
 

Sir Eus Lee

I am wholely flattered you would take about 2 and
Local time
Today, 02:35
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
421
Location
How are you today
#29
Welcome to the forum, and happy birthday.

Do you have a specific denomination, or are you non-denominational?
 
Local time
Today, 05:35
Joined
Jul 10, 2015
Messages
21
#30
Do you have a specific denomination, or are you non-denominational?
Always non-denominational, but I considered myself Charismatic/Calvinist doctrinally for several years (ala John Piper). I think I liked the "meatiness" of the books and such published in that vein. Currently, I have no idea where I am.
 
Top Bottom