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how vs why thinking opposites

SkyWalker

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There are 2 opposite ways of thinking:

- How to finish the task? > Creates sub-tasks (builds a task tree structure)

- Why to finish the task? > Looks for the super-task (destroys a task tree structure / goes back to root)


Both are thinkers, both are not really concerned with Feeling

The how mentality is that of a logical robotic dork like Mr Spock (how=science/knowledge), gets tasks done

The why mentality is more like a philosopher (why=deeper understanding), does not get any task done

Is this a dimension ignored by MBTI? Or is it already there and am I just not seeing it?

<HOW> would map to xxTJ, thats for sure
but somehow I dont think <WHY> maps exactly to xxTP, xxTP is more in the balanced middle between HOW and WHY, as if it could do both.
 

Bird

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The problem I believe is you want one or the other.
You're not willing to accept that, my god, one could
possibly wander both why and how.

I've noticed I am generally asking why. And I am
very secure in my "FJ"-ness.
 

Bird

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There are 2 opposite ways of thinking:

- How to finish the task? > Creates sub-tasks (builds a task tree structure)

- Why to finish the task? > Looks for the super-task (destroys a task tree structure / goes back to root)


Both are thinkers, both are not really concerned with Feeling

The how mentality is that of a logical robotic dork like Mr Spock (how=science/knowledge), gets tasks done

The why mentality is more like a philosopher (why=deeper understanding), does not get any task done

Is this a dimension ignored by MBTI? Or is it already there and am I just not seeing it?

<HOW> would map to xxTJ, thats for sure
but somehow I dont think <WHY> maps exactly to xxTP, xxTP is more in the balanced middle between HOW and WHY, as if it could do both.



Also; I am calling bullshit.
Will you please explain to me
why you believe there to be
only two patterns to thinking?
 

The Gopher

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well you could say that there are to opposite colours and list two opposite colours not saying they are the only two colours. He is taking like there "were two guys in a bar" There could be more but he is talking about these two.
 

SkyWalker

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Also; I am calling bullshit.
Will you please explain to me
why you believe there to be
only two patterns to thinking?

I didnt say "only" two. I just said that these two are 2 opposite sides of "one of the" dimensions. Just like extravert-introvert is a dimension. All dimensions have 2 opposite sides, duh ;)
 

SkyWalker

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The problem I believe is you want one or the other.
You're not willing to accept that, my god, one could
possibly wander both why and how.

I didnt say that at all. Where did i say that you cannot do both? I personally believe you can alternate between both, just like you can alternate between extraversion/introversion, but its still a dimension and most people still have a preference
 

SkyWalker

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I've noticed I am generally asking why. And I am
very secure in my "FJ"-ness.

I am very secure in my "P"-ness and I also tend to ask more WHY than average people

I am also very secure that TJs ask more HOW than average people.

The max-HOW people flock to TJ
But the max-WHY people spread over a few categories like P and FJ, and they are mixed there with WHY/HOW-balanced-people

My conclusion is that <WHY> is ignored by MBTI

(MBTI only does <HOW> vs <balance of WHY/HOW + WHY all grouped together as the same kind>)
 

dark

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I don't really know where you are going, may be because I just woke up, but as an ENTP I know for certian I ask more "HOW" and "WHY" questions than anyone else I have ever been near. Any how will think more on this.
 

Ska

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I would have thought this correlated more with N/S than J/P
 

Words

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There are 2 opposite ways of thinking:

- How to finish the task? > Creates sub-tasks (builds a task tree structure)

- Why to finish the task? > Looks for the super-task (destroys a task tree structure / goes back to root)


Both are thinkers, both are not really concerned with Feeling

The how mentality is that of a logical robotic dork like Mr Spock (how=science/knowledge), gets tasks done

The why mentality is more like a philosopher (why=deeper understanding), does not get any task done

Is this a dimension ignored by MBTI? Or is it already there and am I just not seeing it?

<HOW> would map to xxTJ, thats for sure
but somehow I dont think <WHY> maps exactly to xxTP, xxTP is more in the balanced middle between HOW and WHY, as if it could do both.

Indeed, TJ mentality versus TP mentality. Or rather, Te versus Ti. One seeks to manipulate the external and apply, the other wants to simply absorb and understand. But then, to understand doesn't exclusively mean to simply ask "why" questions. If curiosity was thrust on how to apply, wherein the questions take the form of "Why do you do X instead of Z? Why not do Y?", Ti will be asking "how". And in the same indirect route, Te will be asking "why?". Nevertheless, I believe it is a valid "tendency".

The N/S also have their own effects. Sensing implies the concrete world and therefore, "tends" to focus on "application" as well. It works since understanding is not necessarily the opposite of application. Perhaps the middle ground is xNTJ, wherein abstractions take physical form.

ESTJ-ISTJ-ESTP-ISTP-ENTJ-INTJ-ENTP-INTP----------------------INFJ.
 

SkyWalker

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I call WHY&HOW the "task scheduling" dimension

P-mentality = either S or N, but this is indifferent to task scheduling (WHY/HOW)

S&N and WHY&HOW are definitely seperate dimensions

let me explain:

HOW to finish task A? Find/Make sub-tasks!
- S comes up with existing sub-tasks that are already there (that it can find out there, from others/common-rationalities-known-as-facts)
- N comes up with new sub-tasks that he invents

WHY to finish task A? Find/make the super-task!
- S comes up with an existing super-task that is already there (that it can find out there, from others/common-rationalities-known-as-facts)
- N comes up with a new super-task that he invents
 

Glordag

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Why are you postulating this question, and how do you plan to use it? :P
 

EyeSeeCold

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Haha SkyWalker, you remind me of me, with all these concepts.

MBTI was developed to showcase Jung's work. It doesn't really add much anything new, except outward behavioral trends. It doesn't go into the psyche of people, which is what you're trying to do here.

I think why is more attuned to intuition, as it tries to delve deeper than physicality, while logical thinking is asking how.
 

Bird

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I am very secure in my "P"-ness and I also tend to ask more WHY than average people

I am also very secure that TJs ask more HOW than average people.

The max-HOW people flock to TJ
But the max-WHY people spread over a few categories like P and FJ, and they are mixed there with WHY/HOW-balanced-people

My conclusion is that <WHY> is ignored by MBTI

(MBTI only does <HOW> vs <balance of WHY/HOW + WHY all grouped together as the same kind>)


I understand what you are saying now.
Thank you for taking the time to clarify.
Perhaps you should take it upon yourself
to fix this slight.


I didnt say "only" two. I just said that these two are 2 opposite sides of "one of the" dimensions. Just like extravert-introvert is a dimension. All dimensions have 2 opposite sides, duh ;)


Touche, touche Luke.


This is not on topic but do you believe
it should be extrovert or extravert?
 

~~~

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As an ENTJ I find it not uncommon to ask why x - particularly if it is not relevant. This will be done relatively quickly before moving to the next step.
 

poppi

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I've read a description on the INTP personality and it mentioned this. It said they're curious creatures who always wonder why why why? I find it interesting that I'm an INTP and I always noticed, as well as others that I am completely a why-seeker. It heightens my faith in this classification of people.
 

Jean Paul

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There are 2 opposite ways of thinking:

- How to finish the task? > Creates sub-tasks (builds a task tree structure)

- Why to finish the task? > Looks for the super-task (destroys a task tree structure / goes back to root)


Both are thinkers, both are not really concerned with Feeling

The how mentality is that of a logical robotic dork like Mr Spock (how=science/knowledge), gets tasks done

The why mentality is more like a philosopher (why=deeper understanding), does not get any task done

Is this a dimension ignored by MBTI? Or is it already there and am I just not seeing it?

<HOW> would map to xxTJ, thats for sure
but somehow I dont think <WHY> maps exactly to xxTP, xxTP is more in the balanced middle between HOW and WHY, as if it could do both.

what if you would say both? Like first I would say how then when I get to to the deeper parts of how it's working I'd say why is it working like so
 

SkyWalker

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NEW THOUGHTS

I just finished Jung's book "psychological types" (BTW you have to skip chapter 1-9, the useful stuff starts at chapter 10) and I came to the conclusion that I was mistaken in my views about introversion/extraversion. And I think most people are mistaken (or was I the only idiot?)

Popular perverted usage of extravert = a dominant alpha person (e.g. outgoing)
Popular perverted usage of introvert = a submissive beta person (e.g. shy)
(That's why everybody wants to be extravert)

But Jung invented the words introvert/extravert himself, and his original definition is totally different!:
extravert=objective person
introvert=subjective person

So then I answered my previous questions like this:

***people who ask HOW to do a task > reach the OBJECTIVE***
- take a task and make smaller sub-tasks until OBJECTIVE reached (e.g. building a tree of tasks, ever branching and branching until all leaf-tasks are executed, thus reaching the objective)
- this is extraverted thinking

***people who ask WHY to do a task > reach the SUBJECTIVE***
- take a task and find the bigger super-task until you reach your SUBJECTIVE self(breaking down a tree of tasks towards the root)
- this is introverted thinking

so tasks are intangible things; floating in between the objective and the subjective.
- the introvert grounds the task to his subjective/self
- and the extravert grounds the task to the other object (objective).

If you are a real INTP, you are more introvert, thus you tend to ask WHY more than (extraverted) others.

P.S. Dominant vs Submissive should also be a dimension, and it is actually this dimension which is lacking in MBTI. And probably "because it is missing": introvert/extravert is mistakenly labeled as such.
 

poppi

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skywalker, I see what your saying, but I thought that INTPs are notoriously objective people? Who always try to look at things objectively and are thus very good at being researchers and scientists. Perhaps I don't understand what is meant by it very well then.
 

viche

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For the why (end goal) vs how (methods) I'll make a connection here to Reinin dichotomies of tactical vs strategic thinking to give you guys some more stuff to think about :P

Tactical mode of thinking focuses on the methods while goals are kept variable and not the main concern. Strategic thinking focuses on achieving a goal while methods to achieve it are not as important and vary. Tacticals have inert intuition and contact sensing. Strategic types have intuition in the contact function position and sensing in the intert position. In other words, types that have intuition as their dominant or tertiary are given into tactical thinking. Types who intuition is auxiliary or inferior are given into strategic thinking.

Tactical types are: ENTP, ENFP, ESFJ, ESTJ, ISTP, ISFP, INFJ, INTJ
Stategic types are: ENFJ, ENTJ, INFP, INTP, ESTP, ESFP, ISTJ, ISFJ

I found this quite interesting as I play an mmo game where coming up with new tactics is a goal of the gaming group I belong to and the interesting bit is that it is usually the ENTJ, INTP and ESTP in the group who come up with new tactics and engage in a lot of debate over these. I've once witnessed INTJ debate with the ENTJ where the core of INTJ's argument was that goals are variable while for ENTJ it was clear that there was one goal.

Popular perverted usage of extravert = a dominant alpha person (e.g. outgoing)
Popular perverted usage of introvert = a submissive beta person (e.g. shy)
(That's why everybody wants to be extravert)

But Jung invented the words introvert/extravert himself, and his original definition is totally different!:
extravert=objective person
introvert=subjective person
It is more accurate to say that extravert is a more objective person than introvert as nobody is really just an extravert or introvert. All of us use a combination of extraverted and introverted functions.

Another popular definition is that extraversion = going to parties and socializing. This is true for F-type extraverts, especially Fe ones, because due to having F function as dominant or auxiliary their mind places value on people and relationships, so their extraversion usually includes those elements. This is not really true of T-type extraverts whose extraversion does not place that much value on people. Extraversion is really just interaction with environment and the switch between the two happens instantly. As I am typing this I am pausing and going inside my mind to retrieve more information - this is introversion. Then I come back and start typing - this is me interacting with environment i.e. extraversion. The mind very rapidly switches between the two states.

skywalker, I see what your saying, but I thought that INTPs are notoriously objective people? Who always try to look at things objectively and are thus very good at being researchers and scientists. Perhaps I don't understand what is meant by it very well then.
It depends on your definition of objective. There seem to be several different definitions floating around. One is that word objective means aimed at and interacting with objects outside of self. Second definition is that objective is making decisions based on outside facts and not considering own sentiments. By first definition all extraverted functions are objective and all introverted ones are subjective, so INTP's dominant function Ti is thus subjective while auxiliary function Ne is objective (nobody is only introvert or extravert but INTP's thinking will be dominated by the subjective element Ti). By second definition Ti does not fulfill first requirement as making decisions based on outside fact is Te not Ti. However it does fulfill second requirements of not making judgements based on own sentiments as this is domain of Fi rather than Ti. Of course you can also consider inner logic to be "own sentiment" which would once again make Ti not fall under this definition of objective.
 

SkyWalker

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So I mistakenly thought that E and I are supposed to be used for only one dimension. I think you are right that extreverted/introverted means something totally different when its on a T or F function, so T and F are actually dimensions with an E and I opposite for each, I am beginning to understand MBTI better now.

So submissive & dominant is not missing from MBTI...

introverted feeling (Fi) = submissive
extraverted feeling (Fe) = dominant

introverted thinking (Ti) = WHY
extraverted thinking (Te) = HOW

thus popular usage of I/E is not really that perverted, but only covers the Feeling part "and forgot the others"


so what about Si/Se and Ni/Ne?
 
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