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How do you justify your existence?

Daddy

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It can be said that there is no inherent meaning to life, no necessary goal in itself, no point really other than the point you create. How then do you justify your existence? Do you have some kind of end-goal, where once you reach it, life can end? Something personalized to yourself that you need to do or achieve or be or experience to feel some kind of fulfilment with having existed? I wonder if most people just live because they exist; maybe they even believe that just existing justifies living. But that seems kind of pointless and truly empty. It seems a kind of true problem, if people can't justify their existence.

?
 

Animekitty

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Justify to whom? Why does my right to exist depend on slavery?
 

Cognisant

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Suppose I give you a fake cheque for a million dollars as a joke, when you find out the cheque isn't real you'll feel like you've lost a million dollars even though you never had it in the first place. Likewise the soul is a fake cheque for an eternal afterlife in paradise and eternal torment for anyone you dislike, if you're going to scam somebody you may as well go for everything you can get.

Fundamentally an inherently meaningful existence is like being a robot, designed and built for a specific purpose, were you designed and built for a specific purpose? Might it be that your existence isn't inherently meaningful because nobody made you, that the meaning of your existence hasn't been predetermined by some maker but is rather left up to you to decide.

Is that a bad thing?
 

Rook

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I wake up. Two paths: Put a shotgun into my mouth and blow my brainbits onto the ceiling, or make a cup of coffee, look at the clouds and listen to the birdies and do whatever it is that Rook does.

The first option is boring as fuck, the second one has a great multitude of potentialities, even if I am trapped in a skinbag.

Why does one need a reason? Sure, ambitions, lusts, loves: All of these things are motivators, but ultimately, you live or you don't.

There's no reason to make existence unpleasant for yourself, whether you are a wanderer sleeping under bridges with your teeth rotting out, or a lordly banker travanting about on your yacht.

Still, humans are as humans are, and they do as they do. So do something that makes life sublime, why let your heart and mind sink into a mire of uncertain whishwashy 'Oh wherefore art this being that is I !?'

Conquer your biology, while appreciating it all the same.
 

ZenRaiden

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Question is can you be something you are not? What makes you, you?
What if being a huge pain in the ass and being a failure is the thing you are suppose to be, because ultimately that is who you are?
 

EndogenousRebel

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Do I have the credentials to give justification to people's or things existences? If not, get those and find a way to make money in it so I can help those around me that have given me everything in life worth having, and inevitably justify my existence. Once you're in the system there's no getting out.

For real though, I would justify my fist in someone's face if they asked me this question. Like who df do you think you are lmao? Purpose is something thoughtful people worry about and bougie people tell proletariat so that the mindless drones think they're doing them a favor. You're a human being in 2020, I think all our existences are at least a little justified until we start being mass produced with turkey basters and incubators. Chillout, produce and sell as much value as possible, with as little effort and as much pleasure as you can comfortably do until you die. Unlearn this putrid societally conditioned song, and maximize your experience, that way when you're older and can't move anymore all you have is happy memories and impressions of the excellent life you had.
 

Cognisant

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Do you have some kind of end-goal, where once you reach it, life can end? Something personalized to yourself that you need to do or achieve or be or experience to feel some kind of fulfilment with having existed?
I've long contemplated how rudimentary current BCI and life support/extension technologies are and that if I go all-in on the brain in a jar route I'm going to spend decades, possibly centuries, in a disembodied state with limited senses and I'll probably be clinically depressed (due to the lack of certain hormones/chemicals) and probably in considerable pain (phantom limb syndrome).

But as long as I have a future to look forward to I can endure that, indeed growing old terrifies me, having nothing to look forward to but an ever worsening state of being would make me want to kill myself just to get it over with. Even if there's still things I could enjoy as an old man if I'm going to die anyway then rather than live with the shadow of death hanging over me I'd go out on my own terms.

I fear the indignity of dying more than death itself.
 

Daddy

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Justify to whom? Why does my right to exist depend on slavery?

To yourself. And I don't know that it does or even has to.

Suppose I give you a fake cheque for a million dollars as a joke, when you find out the cheque isn't real you'll feel like you've lost a million dollars even though you never had it in the first place. Likewise the soul is a fake cheque for an eternal afterlife in paradise and eternal torment for anyone you dislike, if you're going to scam somebody you may as well go for everything you can get.

Fundamentally an inherently meaningful existence is like being a robot, designed and built for a specific purpose, were you designed and built for a specific purpose? Might it be that your existence isn't inherently meaningful because nobody made you, that the meaning of your existence hasn't been predetermined by some maker but is rather left up to you to decide.

Is that a bad thing?

No. But I do wonder how many people don't ever bother to answer the question to themselves. It's like living a life with nothing to look forward to or at least not being aware of what you look forward to. Odd way to live to me.

I wake up. Two paths: Put a shotgun into my mouth and blow my brainbits onto the ceiling, or make a cup of coffee, look at the clouds and listen to the birdies and do whatever it is that Rook does.

The first option is boring as fuck, the second one has a great multitude of potentialities, even if I am trapped in a skinbag.

Why does one need a reason? Sure, ambitions, lusts, loves: All of these things are motivators, but ultimately, you live or you don't.

There's no reason to make existence unpleasant for yourself, whether you are a wanderer sleeping under bridges with your teeth rotting out, or a lordly banker travanting about on your yacht.

Still, humans are as humans are, and they do as they do. So do something that makes life sublime, why let your heart and mind sink into a mire of uncertain whishwashy 'Oh wherefore art this being that is I !?'

Conquer your biology, while appreciating it all the same.

Sure; but how does such a person know they are living a meaningful life?

For example, if the person taking the second option suddenly became terminally ill and had an hour to themselves to evaluate their life before they died, do you think they would feel a sense of closure about it or regret? And why?

Question is can you be something you are not? What makes you, you?
What if being a huge pain in the ass and being a failure is the thing you are suppose to be, because ultimately that is who you are?

Sure, if that person truly thinks a life lived that way gives them no regrets, I can support that.

Do I have the credentials to give justification to people's or things existences? If not, get those and find a way to make money in it so I can help those around me that have given me everything in life worth having, and inevitably justify my existence. Once you're in the system there's no getting out.

Probably not, but you probably should be most responsible for your own.

For real though, I would justify my fist in someone's face if they asked me this question. Like who df do you think you are lmao?

Only if we kiss afterwards.

Purpose is something thoughtful people worry about and bougie people tell proletariat so that the mindless drones think they're doing them a favor. You're a human being in 2020, I think all our existences are at least a little justified until we start being mass produced with turkey basters and incubators. Chillout, produce and sell as much value as possible, with as little effort and as much pleasure as you can comfortably do until you die. Unlearn this putrid societally conditioned song, and maximize your experience, that way when you're older and can't move anymore all you have is happy memories and impressions of the excellent life you had.

Being old with happy memories and impressions of an excellent life sounds weird for some reason. It sounds empty, like there is no reason left to exist then. What is there left to strive for? Do some people think strife is supposed to have an end in mind? I should hope not.

Do you have some kind of end-goal, where once you reach it, life can end? Something personalized to yourself that you need to do or achieve or be or experience to feel some kind of fulfilment with having existed?
I've long contemplated how rudimentary current BCI and life support/extension technologies are and that if I go all-in on the brain in a jar route I'm going to spend decades, possibly centuries, in a disembodied state with limited senses and I'll probably be clinically depressed (due to the lack of certain hormones/chemicals) and probably in considerable pain (phantom limb syndrome).

But as long as I have a future to look forward to I can endure that, indeed growing old terrifies me, having nothing to look forward to but an ever worsening state of being would make me want to kill myself just to get it over with. Even if there's still things I could enjoy as an old man if I'm going to die anyway then rather than live with the shadow of death hanging over me I'd go out on my own terms.

I fear the indignity of dying more than death itself.

Yeah, I'd actually prefer to be an ever-changing AI. A lot more potential, better evolution, both child and parent.
 

Rook

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@Daddy

1. Depends on the person.

2. My point is: You define your meaning, and if can't define meaning, you don't define meaning. If you know it, you know, if you don't, you don't.

3. Such hypotheticals hold little interest to me, as a single example cannot encompass the neurological make-up of billions of primates.

There is no almanac that I can slam open to reference person no. 84342943213 and decide, "Yeah, that's a meaningful life right there."
But person no. 43027025? "Nah."

I am not one of those above persons, their lives are not mine, their fleshbags are their own to pilot. How the hell can I tell whether they live meaningful lives? Only my own meaning can be determined, because only I can determine it.

***

From the outset you ask: How do you justify existence? I answer: What is there to justify? If you die in a contented state, you die in a contented state. If you die a sad and broken human with regrets and stress tearing your mind apart, you die a sad and broken being. You are what you are, and if you don't like what you are, you might work hard to change yourself. If you fail to change yourself, you fail.

Do or do not. Why justify? Seems like a useless loop in the equation. Sure, if you believe in a greater cosmological entity that expects certain mores of action from you, or if you feel the need to prove yourself to the universe in some way even if you are only an atom in it, then you might have some drive for justification.

For me though, it just seems a waste of energy. Write a book, adopt a puppy, blow up a bridge, create meaning. What is there to justify?
 

Daddy

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@Daddy

1. Depends on the person.

2. My point is: You define your meaning, and if can't define meaning, you don't define meaning. If you know it, you know, if you don't, you don't.

3. Such hypotheticals hold little interest to me, as a single example cannot encompass the neurological make-up of billions of primates.

There is no almanac that I can slam open to reference person no. 84342943213 and decide, "Yeah, that's a meaningful life right there."
But person no. 43027025? "Nah."

I am not one of those above persons, their lives are not mine, their fleshbags are their own to pilot. How the hell can I tell whether they live meaningful lives? Only my own meaning can be determined, because only I can determine it.

Perhaps I'm not being clear, but I'm not asking you to judge other people or apply an all-encompassing answer for everyone (although you can if you want). And I'm actually a little perplexed as it seems I'm seen to be antagonistic here, which...is interesting because that honestly says more about the current vibe here than it does my intentions or motivations.

But back on topic, I was simply inquiring about yourself, as I am for everyone. This is more of a personal question, that is going to have an answer that is tailored to each individual. And I'm just curious to hear what you all have to say about your "own" answer, not really other people's.

***

From the outset you ask: How do you justify existence? I answer: What is there to justify? If you die in a contented state, you die in a contented state. If you die a sad and broken human with regrets and stress tearing your mind apart, you die a sad and broken being. You are what you are, and if you don't like what you are, you might work hard to change yourself. If you fail to change yourself, you fail.

Do or do not. Why justify? Seems like a useless loop in the equation. Sure, if you believe in a greater cosmological entity that expects certain mores of action from you, or if you feel the need to prove yourself to the universe in some way even if you are only an atom in it, then you might have some drive for justification.

For me though, it just seems a waste of energy. Write a book, adopt a puppy, blow up a bridge, create meaning. What is there to justify?

That said, this idea of yours makes no sense.

You say "For me though, it just seems a waste of energy. Write a book, adopt a puppy, blow up a bridge, create meaning. What is there to justify?"

Well all of those things require some kind of justification/motivation to the individual doing them or they are completely pointless to do in the first place. Unless you are somehow suggesting people should just act on impulse, which I'd argue is the equivalent of thinking the examined life isn't worth living or that it's best to be the leaf in the wind, rather than director of the show. In either case, that sounds completely uninspiring...I guess that could be my hell, just a dumb monkey, satiating desires and throwing poop at those who suggest we should or could be anything more than that. hmm
 

Rook

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@Daddy
Yeah, that's just how I write, no ill intent meant. Maybe I'm jaded.
My answer is basically: This is something that only the individual defines for themselves, or 'I define my own meaning.'

***

In terms of your second point, I say: Seek to be great, build ships that explore the galaxy, compose symphonies, cure that cancer bud; but there doesn't have to be reason for it, you don't have to justify doing it. Examine your life if you choose to, but the word 'justification' is the nebulous ambiguity here. Justification and examination are not the same things, the former is based on moral judgement after the fact, while the latter is more empirical, actionable, and not so wishy-washy.

"which I'd argue is the equivalent of thinking the examined life isn't worth living or that it's best to be the leaf in the wind, rather than director of the show. In either case, that sounds completely uninspiring..."

"...if you don't like what you are, you might work hard to change yourself."

***

With all that typed, this is about personal opinion, personal philosophy, and I've set mine out to some extent. Don't got more to say ; )

---FIN---
 

EndogenousRebel

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Being old with happy memories and impressions of an excellent life sounds weird for some reason. It sounds empty, like there is no reason left to exist then. What is there left to strive for? Do some people think strife is supposed to have an end in mind? I should hope not.
I'm more so trying to convey an idea I think is valuable (due to the use I get from it) than trying to convince you that you should be okay with deteriorating towards death, holding out till the last breath you can possibly take. Maybe my approach wasn't that good.

Basically it stems from the idea that there is some sort of specter hanging over you that is telling you that you have to be useful. Where does that specter come from? Going to nay implying that societal forces implanted it into your head to make fool you into indentured servitude, because, I guess that's not apparent I suppose. It makes sense to want to be useful for a variety of logical reasons. But my point is that it is illogical for a whole slew of reasons that disqualify most of the reasons that specter gives you. Please do challenge the ideas, if I'm off or flat out wrong.
  • You are concerned about a feeling/experience you may not ever have, one that you are anticipating in the future.
    • Fact is, you simply don't know how your life will be even over a decade from now. You may have an idea because you see unhappiness in elders that are alive right now, but have you asked them what the worst parts of their experience is? Eitherway, the way we deal with these concerns is planning against them, meaning having a strategy for how you're going to live and fulfill your happiness. Mines happens to be doing what I've always done and day dreaming with money and memories to die in peace. But if you're creative enough, I'm sure you can be smashing every day if you plan for it, die of syphilis or any other STD you want. There is not just one path you follow, life is uncertain, and you believe that it will certain in an aspect to your detriment. Don't wait, or have any expectations for the future, plan for the time we are in now. We thought we would have flying cars in 2015 (Back to the Future.) Don't rely on fantasies, do whatever you can in your reality.
  • You're essentially occupied on the premise having no value to anyone else, which may happen, but you can always have value in at least a few people, or AT LEAST yourself.
    • I mean, I guess this goes in with planning and thoughtfulness in general. You are a human being. For mega-anna, your ancestors were content to hunt, feed, fuck and sleep and probably didn't worry about much shit besides how they were going to do that same thing tomorrow. This isn't dismissing that rational/social feeling of being useless, or probable fear of being discarded. But there are so many other things besides those things that can give you a fulfilling life or fulfilling other people's lives (don't take the previous sentence at face value.)
  • Doing nothing solves nothing.
    • Self-explanatory. For me, even knowing these things soothes my sensibilities. But maybe as that time approaches I'll be shitting myself. Thankfully I'm too busy shitting myself right now, trying to avoid that end. Honestly, I'm content with that, this leads me to that "specter." It's just a habitual idea that leads a parasitic existence, and I always just tell my self just this. "Doing nothing solves nothing." Or "this thought is not useful."
I only kiss furries so that's a no from me.
 

BurnedOut

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I have two opinions on these. However, the latter one is enough for me to live.

Years ago, I had written a treatise of sorts on Randomness v. Determinism. One of the justifications I had for Determinism existing is the existence of 'butterfly effect'. In my theory, the butterfly effect was nothing but a value for a bigger problem. Therefore, even my thoughts and the tiniest thing I do have an impact and it is all predetermined due to a large hypothetical equation that is being solved by the collective efforts of all.
In essence, this basically means that I have a purpose in life because I am definitely contributing something to the existence of this universe. I find this belief nonsense because even if such an equation, it won't be solved even if I am born 1 billion times. I don't have to keep thinking of what I am going to contribute to the world. However, I do think of contributing in a realistic manner, on a smaller scale that I can achieve in my lifetime.

The other thing I believe in is Randomness. That sentience is the proof of randomness. Sentience is a pseudopattern that exists in the realm of randomness. Therefore, the lives we are leading are mere false patterns that we perceive to be real. But there is uncertainty because it is a pseudopattern.

This ultimately means that I don't give two fucks about what I am going to do in this life because my life is uncertain to a great extent. My only purpose in life is to either be random or find another pseudopattern which will last until I die. This essentially means that my birth is purposeless. It further means that since I am randomness myself, I can do whatever the fuck I want and make the most out of life instead of trying to be oppressed and too predictable. Thinking this gives me joy because it exposes the fact that I have a lot of freedom than I think.
 

moody

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The chemicals in the human brain changes as we age to make us more accepting of death when we get older. Obviously our circumstances and experiences will play a big part in how "accepting" we are when we're dying, but our biology does it's best to help us keep calm.

It's painful if we aren't ready to die, but we see no meaning in our lives. Part of this is because we are inherently social creatures (yes, even us introverts), and our identities are created based off of our social interactions. We need proof from our effects on others that our life has a reason.

(Side note: This conundrum is particular to humans. Our main adaptation is through labeling and categorization. Naturally, this extends to our own existence. I don't think the ways in which we define and experience "life" applies to the existence of life in itself).
 

crippli

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How do a baby,cow.human, mice, etc justify their excistance,?
 

crippli

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Sorry. But you ask the unqustionable. Non of us can justify our excistance.
 

Animekitty

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Basically, you are asking about is the meaning of life.

I have said before on the forum that the meaning of life is homeostasis.

Whatever keeps homeostasis is justified in keeping my existence because life wants to live. What justifies nonexistence is extreme pain. Once pain becomes too high it cannot be lived with. Pain must be avoided at all costs. Pain involves social relations. Social relations maintain homeostasis. That is what we can die for someone. Or kill someone. Survival is complicated because of human values. Love is a bond that represents the greatest homeostasis. Moms love their babies. And the babies grow up in greater and greater homeostasis because they are loved. It is a need like food and just as necessary. Relationships create an ever greater life for all. Love connects.

Connection and Separation. Life does not want to die. That is why it is here, after trillions of generations. Whatever feels like death we avoid. What feels like love we seek. Will to power and all that.
 
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