How do I act normal?

[Zero]

Having a low F has resulted in some particular issues.

My sense of humor is hit or miss. I don't know when it's on or off or what makes it either. I don't find many things funny, unless I'm in the mood for humor. I hardly ever experience random humor. I have trouble identifying humor and I might not find it humorous for several hours. I might find odd things funny.

That problem I think I've mentioned before, but I've also noticed another thing. I hate compliments. I hate both giving and getting them and I hate it when people compliment each other, especially over small things. I don't mind when people agree with me, that's enough of a compliment as far as I'm concerned. It bothers me when this is inflated and begins to look like flattery. I realize this is normal for humans and a part of social bonding.

People do it on these forums just as much as other people on any other forum. Sometimes I know it's humorous, but other times it looks like blatant flattery to win brownie points.

Sometimes I simply dislike the fact that people will only say "good one" or "nice". What is the point of posting that? The only reason to post something like that is for the sake of bonding. It's one thing to agree, it's another to flatter.

I think my inability to do this little tidbits of flattery have ruined relationships, my place in a groups and my overall likability.

How essential do you think little tidbits of agree-ability and flattery are?
Should I follow the mob and respond to things as other people are, despite having no feeling about the stimuli I'm responding to? I'm particularly concerned about doing this via forums, as it's not blatantly required as it clearly is in "rl" situations.

Obviously, it's usually a good idea to respond "properly" to stimuli produced by other people as it will win you favor and resources. It seems like most people do this natural, but I find it kind of difficult.

I rarely feel genuine admiration, etc... so when I express genuine gratitude or admiration or etc.. it comes off as fake or overly expressed. But it's a rarity for me to feel genuine about things like this, so it seems much more intense and like an isolated incident.

 

[ashitaria]

I agree with you in this one. Unless there is a strong basis for a compliment, I sometimes feel fake and wish they didn't say it in the first place, though I usually ignore/don't care.
I know I'm funny, and I can make people laugh very easily so I don't mind being complimented funny, but for things like "you're smart" or for other things like "you're a genius", these compliments are one those kinds that I get troubled by, because they form that immediate conclusion over one math problem. But I get used to it.

And though not a lot of people in my school use flattery, I tend to get rather pissed off on sites whereby people compliment someone for being able to post a good AMV. Hell, I'd rather see objective criticism. That's be something worth to read.

 

[Beat Mango]

Hmmm, there are some people I would lavish with compliments if it wasn't socially inappropriate.

 

[Audentia]

I don't think I can help with the humor thing, maybe you take things to seriously and need to loosen up a bit? Or maybe you haven't found a funny friend yet and they're all boring slops with bland humor? I think I would be miserable without people who joke and kid around and make people laugh.. it is essential in my life and friends because life is too damn serious already.

It sounds like you're missing the point of what you call "flattery." For instance, I do not say things that are untrue if I'm going to say something about someone else. In fact, I only give honest compliments and don't give them unless it is honestly what I think, see, etc.

It isn't going to be bullshit nor do I have so little integrity and self-worth that I would bother to give flattery that is false or simply for the purpose of self-seeking attention and self-satisfaction (of course, you're right that some do).

Giving compliments, in my mind, is actually entirely to do with either a) making the other person feel good about themselves, but honestly, I don't bullshit people because that is crap b) relate to them c) understand them d) because you like something they said, did, or whatever. It's being honest and not being afraid to verbalize good thoughts about others.

Most people appreciate having people that they esteem think well or highly of them, it's just human nature as far as I'm aware, and compliments are a facet of that. Showing you esteem them.

I don't understand why you see compliments as so negative. It seems like you really mistrust peoples intentions, which maybe is a INTP thing, and that really sucks, but most people wouldn't waste their breath saying something that isn't true. Unless they're a creep, or trying to get something from you, and in that case it is pretty obvious they are shallow and false. Shrug.

Personally, I would take people saying mean, cruel, and hurtful things as horrible, and not put compliments in that same bag .

Why do you mistrust people's opinions and thoughts and think they're not genuine? You should give other people more credit than that . Most people give compliments far too little, there's nothing wrong with making someone else smile and feel good for no reason except being honest.

 

[Trebuchet]

My sense of humor is hit or miss.

My advice is if you don't think something is funny, don't laugh. You do find some things funny, therefore you have a sense of humor, and don't let anyone tell you different. Anyone who says so clearly isn't funny. (You can probably tell I have the same problem and maybe some issues with it.)

I hate compliments. I hate both giving and getting them and I hate it when people compliment each other, especially over small things. I don't mind when people agree with me, that's enough of a compliment as far as I'm concerned. It bothers me when this is inflated and begins to look like flattery. I realize this is normal for humans and a part of social bonding.
...
How essential do you think little tidbits of agree-ability and flattery are?
Should I follow the mob and respond to things as other people are, despite having no feeling about the stimuli I'm responding to?

I don't think you have to give any compliments you don't feel like giving, but you will receive them, and be around others who are giving and receiving them. I hope you can find some way to avoid getting annoyed by it. When you receive a compliment, just say, "Thank you." No more is needed.

I don't think the agreeability and flattery are essential, but they are inevitable. Don't follow the mob. Be yourself. Your esteem for the people you admire will show itself well enough without doing something that feels false.

 

[Polaris]

I think showing understanding is more genuine than flattery. There are ways to do that without coming across as an arse-licker.

I sometimes sense in certain others, though, a need for compliments, and this neediness makes me a little uncomfortable. Normally I just sit and listen. I do not show emotion or respond with any kind of facial grimace that would convey a particular message. I find this neutralises the whole situation, and often forces the other person to be more introspective and open to their own solutions. If you feed their need, it will only make them needier.

Why do we need flattery or compliments? To feel better about ourselves. Because we are feeling inadequate in some way. We need the confirmation that we exist, from an external source. We need to be acknowledged, recognised, appreciated. Why do we need these constant reminders? Because we are afraid to be nothing, i.e. death of the person we think we are.

But who we think we are and who we really are, are two different things. Who we think we are, is an illusion. It is the product of our own thinking and external feedback.

On an internet forum it is perhaps a bit more difficult to be neutral without being misunderstood, though.

I think I am rambling. But I am conscious of being more, what should I say, friendly on line. I love people, but I do not believe in flattery, as I think it does more damage than good.

 

[Audentia]

Yeah, I have to say in some ways Polaris is right. There are some people who are either really unstable, extremely needy, or have a very low sense of self worth that may push for compliments a lot. And giving in to that can make you a crutch for them. But generally speaking I don't think compliments are a bad thing and don't do any damage, but the opposite if you highly regard the person giving them.

 

[White Rabbit]

I can't stand compliments either and I think they are utter bullshit. But since you can't really change people who are addicted to fixing their self-confidence by giving or receiving compliments, I'd suggest you just learn to say Thank You, and move on. I agree with what most users wrote above - there is no need for you to change your attitude on giving or not giving compliments. It's really your thing, and you retain every right to not compliment unless you believe someone deserved a compliment.

I consider compliments as a positive feedback. Flattering is totally another thing.

 

[Zero]

ash- people always comment that I'm pretty. I'm going to put that fact into the suicide note I write when I'm not pretty anymore. Apparently, I have no other assets.

BM- I think that's weird and creepy.

Audentia- "Loosen up" means nothing. It's non-nonsensical advice unless you're advising I drink, get high or participate in some kind of exercise, like yoga. Of my "friends" there is one person who's humor I enjoy. It's usually dry and sarcastic (and often aimed at other individuals). I wouldn't want to get too close to him though, because I believe he's overly critical and he's also very quiet. I would say he's an INTJ, as he's extremely organized.

You do misunderstand INTP. I mistrust people, I mistrust everything. That' is the point of being a truth seeker and the essence of an INTP. I think one of the most amazing things, despite the possibility of being total bullshit, is that there are different types of INTPs. Floating around here somewhere is a list of INTPs with the traits organized via dominance. It is likely this was compiled by a random INTP person, but I think it adds to the understanding of trait theory and weeds out the confusion when all the dominant traits are put into one "INTP".

You have a lot of reasons for complimenting someone, which I think is interesting and I thank you for sharing them.

a) Making others feel good about themselves. This is something I would not normally do. I would only do this for certain situations: Because they accomplished something or because they're complaining about something. It's taken a long time and a lot of observation (and one college class and two books) to correctly empathize and sympathize when people complain. Sometimes I still don't do it right and I offend them.
b) Relating to people. Again this is something that doesn't come to me naturally and I tend to consider bizarre and uncomfortable. People often can't relate to me, but the same is true for me relating to them.
c) This seems like the same point as B, but the fact that you differentiated them is noted. I don't understand how a compliment would make me understand someone, unless I'm expecting a reaction.
d) This makes sense to me, but my tendency is not to compliment them, it is to discuss whatever they said. It's not natural for me to simply compliment something for the sake of complimenting. If I were to bother with a compliment, I would bother with a discussion.

Trebunchet- Your avatar makes me think there are some things I think are funny and enjoyable most of the time, one of those things is cats.

I sometimes laugh, because other people are laughing, and some people think I don't get the joke if I don't laugh and I don't want those weird looks for not laughing at immature cookie cutter jokes. But I suppose it's a good idea not to laugh, as the person saying stupid things may get the impression I'm enjoying their company.

I do say "thank you" for compliments. I tend to want to argue them, but I don't anymore. Least I try not to... Sometimes compliments depress the shit out of me.

Polaris- Empathy, I've learned that. I want a badge that says empathy, to show I've learned it. But you can't just learn empathy, you have to use it. And it is powerful. But I'd rather have a badge.

Anyway, I think you make an interesting point about ourselves and our persona. For instance, maybe I should live more simply and consider myself less. Who needs to know I exists? How do I know I exists? I need the cashier at the coffee shop to know I exists, for how else will I get my expresso fix. And I get a very particular drink, that kind of sums up my "Self" as known to this person, or any person who provides a temporary service. And if I become a regular they show more empathy to please me, as I am a customer. But then consider friends. Once we're perhaps too familiar with a person we seem to become an accessory to them. There's no more empathy was we have when buffering first meetings. But my friends don't know a lot of things about me, my favorite drink, my favorite food, my favorite movies, shows, etc... As a matter of fact, if we had to go on one of those shows to see how well we know each other it may come out that we only share a small number of past times and know nothing else about each other.

Then again, I have many favorites that change everyday. Maybe my persona changes everyday, my mood certainly isn't static. Perhaps I don't express myself enough to people who are suppose to be friends and alternatively do not try to learn about them.

For the most part I keep to myself. When I moved away for a year of college in another state I began meeting a lot of new people. I took notes on these people. I still sometimes take notes on people. And if I were suddenly introduced to a lot of people I needed to know things about I would take notes on them. As a matter of fact, I took notes on people on this forum. Which I have since done away with.

But back on the idea of existence and persona, it seems like there are only specific characters we need to actually reveal to people. If we end up revealing something not apart of this character they may choose to ignore it or we may make them uncomfortable or reveal something we wish we hadn't.

I have considered buying wigs as apart of this persona actualization. Not to say I would actually create alternate identities, but that this would be a part of my "outfit" and put me in the mindset of what part I'm playing and what I need to present. It's not difficult to overwhelm and frighten people. I forget myself sometimes and it ruins things for me. My mind, my mood, my attitude can change very fast, partly because I don't consider what role I'm playing and I change my persona to something out of context.

I can point out one reason I may be terrible at all empathy, sympathy and all things that are more relevant to Fs, there are none in my family. I was never really required to learn to use social buffering methods. I know when I was young it made me feel bad when it seemed like my parents or brother's attention shifted to something else when I was talking to them. This, I've learned, is not only natural to them and means nothing offensive to me, but also to several other people who don't have this empathy. It took me a while to realize I did this.

It seems that INTPs might display pride, or confidence. The people who display pride usually have a confidence issue in that they are highly self-conscious and want to put off a superior presentation. Thus people identify them as being arrogant. But then there are people who are confident. Confident people are seen as knowing what they're doing and on track. People often see me as confident, but I'm at least moderately narcissistic, if not highly narcissistic.

I think this is funny (in a sadistic way). In real life I don't often take a genuine interest in people, but I'm curious and easily bored. I encourage people to talk to amuse myself, as I typically don't really care when it comes down to it. So, it would seem like I'm at least moderately narcissistic, if not highly so.

If you look at the topics I post, I think it's kind of clear that I'm a narcissist. Though, I believe I initially posted more self-conscious threads. The ones that ask everyone else about something they like, etc... There are only two options I would consider within the context of the INTP forum. a) Self-conscious INTP (or very bored INTP- Actually that would seem a third option, but to keep this simple I'll say this is under a self-conscious action) b) Someone who's actually interested and empathize, either very close to the F border or is actually an INFP.

White Rabbit- I'm glad you agree and have such a firm understanding of the "utter bullshit". Then go back and say, "Deal with it, but be yourself." I also see that you are an PITN. And I would expect a blatant, matter-of-factual, response like that to come from someone with a moderate N.

 

[Kellhus]

I would suggest cutting to the point. I was confronted by a family member rather recently and they told it to me straight (they are ISTJ) that I come across as self-centered, callous, and emitted the "I could not give a shit less" aura. All of which I was both pleased and displeased to find of course. I have found in order to be perceived as normal by certain individuals, you must make an effort to do things you do not want to do, never shall, and will probably never benefit from, but shall make the other party happy. (Mostly since it is what that wish to do, but wish to do /with/ you.)

 

[Geminii]

How essential do you think little tidbits of agree-ability and flattery are?

Non.

I'll do them online and in business, but only if I really think the other person's got something - because that pretty much puts them ahead of the crowd, and I like to encourage even tiny glimmers of intelligence and creativity when I see them.

In general social situations, with my social face on, I'll do the semi-coherent ones - uh-huh, right, sounds interesting, OK, well yeah, of course, mmm. It's verbal code for "I have received and digested the last bit of what you said; no other priority interrupts have occurred; you may continue and also perceive this as feedback telling you that you have not crossed any major personal/social boundaries."

In intellectual-heavy conversations, not so much. MUTUAL HIGH-CONTENT DATA DUMP SPAMFEST RAWR.

 

[LAM]

The thing with the compliments again <_< . Oh well, here goes; when someone gives you a compliment, usually if you aren't a diplomat/person they suck up to/spy, etc, then it might mean a few things:

1. They have nothing else to say but feel they have to say something.

2. They are being nice and trying to make you feel better.

3. They are being nice in an attempt to get closer to you because they think you are in some way interesting.

4. They are being sarcastic but you don't realise it (usually it is very obvious though.)

5. They envy your ability to do something and express it by making you aware that they feel you have something they don't/ can do something they can't. They are usually being nice in this case.

6. They are used to alert other people of your superior skill at something (this is probably psychology left over from survival days.)

7. They are used to encourage you to develop that skill. (Same as 6.)

8. In 90% of cases they are positive and essential to bonding. Not using them or taking them badly cripples you socially worse than you think.

9. In other's eyes, sometimes the lack of compliments might make you seem to be an arrogant asshole who never aknowledges anyone's achievements and taking them badly means they see you as thinking he's above them and their compliments do not count. No matter how trivial some compliments may seem to you, they may mean a lot for the other person if you do say them...

10. It is a show of respect. A few kind words might not seem much to an INTP but it is a lot more to others.

11. Simple compliments are easy to do. most people here seem to only do the "I have known you for a long time and admire your...." type compliments which are very rare to come by. You don't need to say a deep and soul-revealing compliment on a goal or a person's new haircut...


Edit: I made a thread on compliments in the psychology section. If any of you are interested, come over and we can argue there.

 

[Sapphire Harp]

My sense of humor is hit or miss. I don't know when it's on or off or what makes it either. I don't find many things funny, unless I'm in the mood for humor. I hardly ever experience random humor. I have trouble identifying humor and I might not find it humorous for several hours. I might find odd things funny.

It's interesting that you bring up both humor and complimenting as parts of this topic. It really emphasizes how laughter is a compliment in and of itself. Laughing at someone's joke or wit is a public awarding of social appreciation. In the sound of laughter, you might hear the words "I think you're funny or clever!" Indeed, the nature of the laughter shapes the compliment given.

Mocking humor is a curious aspect of this. The jokes have the generic shape of, "Look at how I'm better than this lesser guy." Laughter in these cases is the awarding of superior social standing, with the degradation of the target's standing.

If you aren't interested in other people and don't want anything from them, it doesn't surprise me that "humorous events" are enigmatic for you… Complicated thing, laughter. Seems like it carries degree of commitment in it, for you're awarding social points in doing so…

For the most part, I find laughter occurs when people trust and are comfortable, particularly the comfort in the generation and exchange of social standing points. I expect the "hit or miss" nature of your humor, Zero, has less to do with quality of what you create and more to do with distrust by your audience. Since your social behavior is different, instead of laughing they begin to look for ulterior motives - just like you do.
​

How essential do you think little tidbits of agree-ability and flattery are? Should I follow the mob and respond to things as other people are, despite having no feeling about the stimuli I'm responding to? I'm particularly concerned about doing this via forums, as it's not blatantly required as it clearly is in "rl" situations.

I remember seeing a psychology experiment once where two people were given the task of coordinating with one another to solve a puzzle, but only able to communicate indirectly through a lexicon of symbols. To succeed they had to assign some sort of meaning these symbols and generate a language together. Oddly enough, the pairs of people who succeeded didn't even necessarily agree on what the symbols meant - but they had discovered a mutual framework in which to use them.

The scientists also noticed that imitation was required for success. Until one of the two began emulating the other's use of the symbols, there was no hope of communication in the project.

For better or worse, we were all born into societies with very complicated, embellished, ritualized, and stylized frameworks of communication, as well as expectations and mores tied to them… Whether we choose to agree with it or not, the framework is the default medium of communication - maybe even moreso than the language, itself.

If someone deviates from the framework, it goes from a relatively predictable and safe situation to a "first contact" kind of situation. To borrow a phrase from Ender's Game - if you can't communicate, 'how can you ever be sure the other person isn't trying to kill you?' The question stands until a mutual framework is built and seems to be reliable.

Rejecting the default framework also makes the normal communicator uneasy and vulnerable because they have no reference to predict what the other person could do. The indicators no longer apply. Also, they no longer can be sure the social tools and defenses they have will be effective on someone who rejects the default social framework. E.G. You can't shame someone into compliance if they reject the suggested reasons to feel shame.

Ironically, if two people discard the framework - building a new one from scratch is much easier and is more personalized. Assuming two such people decide they, indeed, want to communicate.

* * * * *
​

I'm freely conjecturing tonight, it seems. I'll have to see how true this feels to me when I come back to it.
​

 

[saihtlen]

How essential do you think little tidbits of agree-ability and flattery are?
Should I follow the mob and respond to things as other people are, despite having no feeling about the stimuli I'm responding to? I'm particularly concerned about doing this via forums, as it's not blatantly required as it clearly is in "rl" situations.

Obviously, it's usually a good idea to respond "properly" to stimuli produced by other people as it will win you favor and resources. It seems like most people do this natural, but I find it kind of difficult.

I rarely feel genuine admiration, etc... so when I express genuine gratitude or admiration or etc.. it comes off as fake or overly expressed. But it's a rarity for me to feel genuine about things like this, so it seems much more intense and like an isolated incident.
__________________

When supposedly funny things according to other people happen - I can presently think of two ways in which I usually react:

1. I subtly observe the changes in their facial expressions the heaving of the body, the pitch of their laughter (they either not notice or get self-conscious about it, maybe find me a little strange too).
number 2! I rudely point out that it does not amuse me and that they should stop throwing me quick glances to see if I'm laughing or not (funny but a bit annoying (sometimes)).

I'm a terrible actress, you see, if I don't genuinely feel it, I get this feeling that they can see through my act mostly because I can see through mine. [correction: I think I'm a terrible actress because I fail to trick myself]

Whenever I pretend to react as others do, I reap this reward manifested as an uncomfortable feeling that I (at that faithful moment ) just triumphantly became the newest member of the mob; a newly discovered puppet.

I can act if I don't presently think that I'm acting and often times I make other people laugh accidentally (either a misunderstanding on my part or because I'm presently hyper and manic).

Therefore, I am currently of opinion that you should react however you wish to react. But sometimes, engaging in the motions of the mob can offer you valuable experience on being a partial mob member (I say 'partial' because you retain your previous persona while taking up and exploring theirs).

oh, and lastly, I usually view compliments as verbal diarrhea (an impulse).

 

[Reverse Transcriptase]

Why do I (want to) act normal?

^ A more important question.