How computer literate are YOU?

[Wisp]

My backing in computers is fairly short, chronologically, but I obtained (freely) an archaic PII computer over last summer, and I spent my break upgrading it. I now have a C2D. I also intern at a computer shop. As such I am quite knowledgable about computers, but I can't seem to get people to believe the actual amount of time I've spent with them. THis time last year, well, I was pretty ignorant. I blame the INTP appetite for knowledge.... (I'm reading a book on Perl right now... -_-')

Anyways, I'm interested in other INTP's knowledge of this field, and this board is a little dead as of now, with the exception of the 1337-speak post... pure golden, that one...

 

[mm1991]

I'm already lost. Does that answer your question?

 

[Wisp]

If you explain where you got lost I could explain it for you... like I said, intern at a shop... I actually enjoy explaining computers.

 

[mm1991]

let's see....archaic PII. C2D. Perl.

 

[Wisp]

PII = Pentium II. A type of processor. Does all the computing of a computer. From maybe, 1995 or older.
C2D = Core 2 Duo. A MUCH newer processor, is effectively 2 processors in a single chip.

Perl = Practical Extraction and Report Language. It is a programming language, which is just a set of syntax to tell the processor what to do. I'm still learning it. Hence my 800 page book...

Sorry for confusing you. I hope I'm not being to vague or too simplified. It's a fine line...

 

[farlda]

I always intend to become more computer-literate, but so far I can only program in the form of html, CSS and visual basic pop-ups
As far as the actual physical structure is concerned, I could probably identify about half of what's plugged into the motherboard on our PC and that's about it.
I keep meaning to learn more, but then I get distracted by one of my other quests for knowledge, psychology as of late.

 

[Wisp]

Personally, I know computer structure inside and out, but I'm trying to become more literate on the programming side of things.

 

[tesseracter]

I have a useless degree in Computer Science. I could put a computer together, but don't really have a desire to do so, since you'd have to pay more to buy everything separately, then make sure that everything is compatible, which probably something won't be! It's quite a pain.

I do webdesign, currently. I know html inside and out, which is completely useless now that cms is the way to go. I've learned flash and a teeny bit of psp. I only know enough to edit cms templates. I know css, which is also vital to cms. I *should* learn both flash and psp inside and out if I want to continue in webdesign. I'm just really getting tired of something new that comes around the corner, upsets the apple cart, and then, we have to learn something brand new! We then have to spend loads of money for new software, while kids in college are learning it faster than I am and do the same thing I do as their side job. It just is not worth it for me!

I really enjoy editing/making DVD slideshows and videos. I use Adobe Premiere elements. I only do that as a hobby, though.

 

[Wisp]

That sounds like your expertise is entirely where mine isn't. I'm currently an intern fixing computers. I'm much better working with stuff lready created than making my own... Could you elaborate on the cms/html conflict you were talking about?

 

[tesseracter]

Cms - Content Management System. This forum is a cms. In fact, it was written in php. If you look at the "address" of any of these pages - it will have a .php somewhere in it. Some cms is .cfs (cold fusion). Some are .asp (microsoft). Php is the freebie language that enables programmers to make html pages "dynamic." In other words, you ask for input, make changes to the input, direct the input, send to different files, send data to a database, etc. Html by itself is static. It's only good for giving information once. Then, you have to pull the file off the server, edit it, save it back onto the server - for any changes to be made.

CMS allows you to make changes right on the server. It uses a template system and php to load each page with the correct data.

I get frustrated because, after I've learned php, I bet something new will come out, and php will become obsolete. I can't keep up with everything! I'm just not smart enough to keep up with the kids in college! ) I'm not really sure this is what I want to do with the rest of my life, anyway. As a matter of fact, I've been saying that since I even began college (20 yrs ago). I'm surprised I actually got my degree. Can anyone say "jack of all trades, master of none?"

 

[Wisp]

Ah, the Red Mage. My favorite class!

 

[Vrecknidj]

Once upon a time, I learned BASIC and Assembly for the 6502. I tried my hand at VBA code for Excel, and have done some really minor database stuff.

I spent one summer teaching kids how to assemble the hardware of a computer from a bunch of parts into something that worked.

In general, I can figure stuff out, even if it's a pain and hidden and hard to find. A few things elude me. I'm no good at complex network stuff.

Otherwise, I'm substantially more proficient than your average end user, but way behind a programmer or network admin.

Dave

 

[Wisp]

I'm probably a step above you, Vreck, but a good couple steps behind professional...

 

[Yozuki]

Yozuki is the long time ten year more learning the computer activity. Since the year 1988, Yozuki is the experience the computer, wishful thinking he is and then alas, he gets the mechanical and programming the activity of the computer! Yozuki is the much knowing of the computer and the learning he spends on the non-knowing computer! Yes!

 

[Wisp]

Nnnn... y'know, talking in a persona is all well and good, but when you start obfuscating your meaning in grammatical errors it gets a little irritating... I'm not trying to sound anal or anything, but your points most likely will get lost somewhere in translation.

 

[Yozuki]

Nnnn... y'know, talking in a persona is all well and good, but when you start obfuscating your meaning in grammatical errors it gets a little irritating... I'm not trying to sound anal or anything, but your points most likely will get lost somewhere in translation.

INTP is not the caring and the information showoff. Yozuki is not the believing. Yozuki is too much the thinking point was not the matter.

NOW perhaps the information exchanging of everyday.

 

[spiderx]

My first computer was a TI-99/4A (look it up). I have had computers since my father started a computer store in 1983 and I have built all of the computers I have owned (save the portable ones). I can program in Basic, VB, C, C#, C++, and Python. I taught A+ certification, some of my responsibilities at work include: writing python programs for data conversion, administering a web server, writing html and javascript, administering sql server and writing sql queries. I'm 29.

 

[loveofreason]

Confession time. I'm computer-illiterate.

I'm actually a fully fledged nature-nerd. The complex system that fascinates me is Gaia. And, to a somewhat lesser extent the Human Psyche. Of course I can't help but see the shared patterns of earth ecology and the human mind, and the influences each has on the other.

 

[RobdoR]

Enough to know how to work it to my satisfaction. I make an attempt at learning a programming language every year or so. I'm OK at Flash, never got around to learning html, didn't know what php was until I read this post, and at the moment, attempting a way to ambitious project in C#. Someday I'll be a great programmer...someday.

Rob

 

[Cabbo Pearimo]

More than most, less than most others.

 

[Wisp]

I sound pretty much around your level Cabbo...

 

[Linsejko]

I'm gaining quickly at linux, but still a noob.

I only use linux now, though. I know very basic HTML, and was starting to toy around in flash a long while ago.

Then that computer crashed. But that's fine, I'm glad my scenario forced me to learn linux.

Fluxbuntu, FTW!

.L

 

[Agapooka]

I do a little PHP and HTML for fun. It seems as though the tendnecy is "more literate than most people, but falls short of anything professional." Except of course for the few professionals...

I, myself, almost studied Computer Science, but I am glad I didn't. Human languages have a more satisfying complexity to them than computer languages...

 

[Radioactive_Springtime]

I'm woefully Illiterate at computers

 

[mindovermatter]

basic html, basic skills at building, very little programming skills. but i do enjoy researching and figuring out how to fix technical problems on my personal computers-- can't stand to let the machine get the best of me, like i am on a mission & totally relentless until i figure it out. gives me great satisfaction to conquer the beast but kinda feel lost afterwards until i find something else to sink my teeth into. would love to learn all the techie stuff

 

[Linsejko]

With Linux, I'm getting that kind of satisfaction; thing is, all the things you learn start to relate to each other, and eventually (I'm told) one develops a deep knowledge of how the operating system functions. Already I feel so empowered on this machine!

It's wonderful, to talk to your computer like an adult. Windows feels like I'm a child, being led by the hand. In Linux, I know what my computer is telling me, and I am learning to talk back.

So exciting!

.L

 

[EditorOne]

"I get frustrated because, after I've learned php, I bet something new will come out, and php will become obsolete"

Well, it's been that way since the 1970s, why would it stop now? And INTP was made for that world: We learn something enough to be competent at it, we don't learn it to the point where leaving it behind becomes painful.

Some of us remember BASIC. Well, we remember learning BASIC, anyway. That was about 20 programs ago. :-)

 

[Wisp]

Hah, BASIC... I know what you mean about Linux... Ah, my puny XP-fed self, trying to tackle a driver incompatability on an infamous wireless card with ndiswrapper... That kept me going for days... never did solve it. That was Ubuntu 8.1, BTW.

 

[Linsejko]

I haven't gotten around to messing with ndiswrapper, myself; haven't needed to yet. It sounds scary.

I am, however, a bit annoyed to recently find out that my otherwise functional wifi card driver doesn't support scanning. More than once I've had to borrow a friend's laptop to find out what the ESSID is of the access point so that I could configure it to get on.

-_-;;

Always embarrassing.

Have you tried the new release?

.L

 

[Wisp]

I'm lucky, one quick web search and a couple commands in the terminal and I'm functional! Actually, I'm using Ubuntu (Yay 8.04) right now on an HP notebook...

 

[Jesin]

Whee! Computer programming, one of my favorite topics.

Perl?!? NO! Don't start with Perl! It's so messy! I mean, it's better than BASIC or COBOL, but it's just too messy to be very useful. It also teaches bad habits.

Once you write a Perl program more than a few hundred lines long and leave it alone for a month, it gets very hard to figure out WTF you meant to do when you wrote it. One thing I find especially ugly is the use of $<number> and @_ to access subroutine arguments, rather than declaring the arguments when you define the subroutine.

Perl is messy because tried to be all the numerous *nix utilities at once, so you have syntax and features from bash, awk, and sed all at once, as well as some that is unique to Perl. Perl is one big kludge, and it inherited the cruft from all of those various tools. It's known as a "Swiss army chainsaw" that does everything at once and nothing elegantly.

Go with Python. It is similar to Perl in ways that only make sense to someone with experience in other kinds of languages, but with a very different design philosophy. Python is just amazingly clean, consistent, and simple, and almost anything you write in Python natrally comes out elegant without much effort. If you type "import this" into the Python interpreter, you get this:

>>> import this
The Zen of Python, by Tim Peters

Beautiful is better than ugly.
Explicit is better than implicit.
Simple is better than complex.
Complex is better than complicated.
Flat is better than nested.
Sparse is better than dense.
Readability counts.
Special cases aren't special enough to break the rules.
Although practicality beats purity.
Errors should never pass silently.
Unless explicitly silenced.
In the face of ambiguity, refuse the temptation to guess.
There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it.
Although that way may not be obvious at first unless you're Dutch.
Now is better than never.
Although never is often better than *right* now.
If the implementation is hard to explain, it's a bad idea.
If the implementation is easy to explain, it may be a good idea.
Namespaces are one honking great idea -- let's do more of those!

No, Python is not the simplest language out there, but I have the feeling you aren't ready for Lisp quite yet. You will be, but not yet.

 

[whojgalt]

Python doesn't scale very well to large projects. Though I haven't used it in a few years, and I've heard that it's gotten better, its OOP features are a pain, and the whitespace-sensitivity plants all kinds of land mines once the logic gets to a certain level of complexity. The duck-typing is too much rope for a C-based language to have, in my opinion, and it still gives me nightmares about the old days of COM and Variant types. If you've ever had to debug or refactor Python code written by a consultant, you wouldn't be so eager to recommend it ;-), Still it's a good language, it is possible to do some pretty sophisticated stuff, and it's crazy easy to get started with and learn.

There's no one best language, I always recommend that people learn one C-based language to start, (Py qualifies), just because the vast majority of practical things out there are based on it in some way, but then to learn at least two others. That way, you learn programming skills in and of themselves, not just language skills. And once you learn one, switching to another is almost trivial.

Lisp/Scheme is a very good academic exercise in that it is a completely different kind of programming, and one that is a more natural fit to how computers really operate. I haven't gotten too far into it yet - just a basic run-through - though it's continually on my "one of these days" list. I also want to learn something like Haskell at least as another academic exercise, and I hear Erlang is pretty cool. I'm also just getting started with Objective-C to do Mac programing.

I've been doing C++ for (yikes!) 7 years now, and additionaly I've made at least a few dollars each doing: Java, Python, VB/C#.NET, AML (an obsolete GIS language), XML/XSLT, HTML, CSS, Javascript, VBA, SQL, and now a little bit of Bash at work. Geez, I'm pretty sure I've forgotten several from that list.

Oh, and I had to write a 3-D tic-tac-toe engine in a computer class once, in Pascal - a horrible, horrible little perversion of a language that CS teachers love for some reason. It was a pass/fail final based on whether it could beat or draw the teacher.

With all that, I can't admin a Windows box to save my life, and know very little *nix.

 

[Jesin]

What do you mean, "duck-typing is too much rope for a C-based language"? It sounded like you were saying "if it's gonna be that close to C, it has to be closer than that".

To me, Python doesn't seem all that close to C. And how is whitespace sensitivity a problem? The only time I've encountered a problem with that is trying to post code to something that doesn't preserve whitespace.

As for Python's OO features, if you haven't used it in a few years, then yeah, it's gotten a LOT better. I think it was sometime in late 2006 to early 2007 that they did a complete overhaul of the class system. Also, from the looks of it, Python 3 is going to be a lot better, and they're doing some serious cruft removal.

And yes, I'm all for learning multiple languages. I have been ever since I tried Lisp. I just think Perl is a horrible place to start, and if debugging Python is ever a nightmare, just imagine debugging the same thing in Perl!

By the way, when I talk about Lisp, I mean Lisp in general, including both Common Lisp and Scheme. If I mean Common Lisp, I'll say Common Lisp (or maybe just CL).

Here's an interesting Lisp: http://arclanguage.org/
Yes, that is related to the Hacker News site I posted earlier. They both run on the same news software, which is written in Arc by Paul Graham, the designer of the language (also the author of the books On Lisp and ANSI Common Lisp). It's a good idea: design a language by writing things in it.

I've also tried some Factor (http://factorcode.org/) and a little bit of C, and Java is used in my CS class. I still plan to try Haskell, Erlang, Smalltalk, and maybe some other stuff.

 

[whojgalt]

Python is based from C, but it's not a C purist kind of thing, it's the hybrid of duck typing with strong typing. The semantics of the language are such that duck typing is not expected, and so problems can result, and when they do, they are very hard to diagnose. It's not a big deal, just another source of confusion in very complex code. The same with the whitespace, it's not a horrible thing, it's just that in complex code, it's easy to get a statement in the wrong block.

These aren't things that are necessarily wrong with the language, and I do like Python for certain classes of problems, but the accumulated baggage gets a little unwieldy in larger projects. And it has been prior to 2006 that I used it, so I understand the OOP changes have been pretty significant, though I'm not familiar with the specifics. I understand that v3 is a fundamental change, even to the point of breaking backward compatibility. I'll be interested to look into it again, and will probably have things I'd like to use it for.

I'm not familiar enough with Lisp, et al, to know all the distinctions. I only threw in Scheme because it's the variant I've played with.

 

[Jesin]

I will take this opportunity to demonstrate the awesomeness of Python's generator expressions.

# Printing the sum of the cubes of all
# integers from 1 to 50 inclusive

# Without generator expressions:
x = 0
for n in xrange(1, 51):
    x += n ** 3
print x

# With generator expressions:
print sum(n ** 3 for n in xrange(1, 51))

To convert to Python 3, replace xrange with range and change "print foo" to "print(foo)".

And now for Lisp.

I think that as a language, Arc is better than either Scheme or Common Lisp, but it's still very young and still unstable. Arc has much of the best of both Scheme and CL, as well as some of its own nice features.

Arc uses a macro system very similar to that of CL, which is simpler and more powerful than Scheme's macros. With Scheme's hygienic macro system, you don't have to avoid accidental variable capture, but neither can you induce intentional variable capture (and yes, there are good reasons for this, such as afn and aif). I know very well how CL and Arc macros behave, but I still haven't figured out how to use Scheme macros.

Like Scheme but unlike CL, Arc has continuations. Continuations can be quite powerful. If they are used frequently or in bad ways they can be very confusing, but they fit some tasks well.

Also like Scheme but not CL, Arc puts everything in the same namespace, so you don't have to specify that you're referring to a function when you reference it without calling it (passing functions as arguments to other functions is done frequently in Lisp).

Like in Common Lisp but not Scheme, nil (the empty list, also written ()) means false, and everything else is considered true (pure truth with no other information is represented by t).

Another interesting thing about Arc are how surprisingly few axioms there are (everything but the axioms is implemented in Arc). The official implementation is in mzscheme, but implementations in other languages would behave the same way as long as they get the few axioms right. If you can port the axioms, you can port the whole language.

 

[Wisp]

Eh. Starting with Perl becasue I have a father who knows it fairly inside and out, but what I REALLY need, is that programmer mindset, which is something that I haven't developed yet. Even as an INTP with a penchant for long/complex words/phrasings I still tend to get swamped in terminology (as happened with your last couple posts Jesin... sorry...). I also don't see programming solutions as clearly as I'd like to. Thankfully, however, I have an extensive view of how computers work. I may not see on the level of the programs (YET!) but I do understand computers. Also, I'm using Ubuntu to learn Perl on, and I'm using the terminal as much as possible so as to become familiar with using text to manipulate my life. Also, it moves faster than dealing with windows, as I'm (still) having trouble getting working drivers on Ubuntu for my laptop's video chipset... (ATI IGP 320m, in case you're interested...)

 

[Jesin]

Programmer mindset... I think I can help you there, at least a little, although maybe not a lot. First, it helps to understand the difference between high level and low level programming. High level languages include Python, Perl, Ruby, and Lisp. Low level languages include C. Very low level languages include assembly languages.

What terminology gave you trouble? I have a link for that, too:
http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/go01.html

If it was the talk about macros and continuations, don't worry about that yet. Only Lisp really has macros, and few languages besides Scheme have continuations. I think Factor and Ruby also have continuations, but you really don't need to worry about continuations yet. A continuation is sort of like a copy of the current call stack (if you don't know what a call stack is, just ask, it's not too complicated. Alternately, you could read something by Douglas Hofstader).

Edit: I just found these awesome related links (I may continue to add to this as I find more):
http://www.lambdassociates.org/blog/bipolar.htm
http://www.lambdassociates.org/blog/hackers.htm
http://commandline.org.uk/python/twelve-commandments-of-python-style-2008-04-25-19-00.html

 

[Jesin]

I just found this awesome link:
http://www.lambdassociates.org/blog/bipolar.htm

 

[Jesin]

I just found this awesome related link:
http://www.lambdassociates.org/blog/bipolar.htm

 

[whojgalt]

what I REALLY need, is that programmer mindset, which is something that I haven't developed yet.

There's a very good aptitude test here: http://www.cs.mdx.ac.uk/research/PhDArea/saeed/test(week-0).doc and a writeup of the premises behind it here: http://www.cs.mdx.ac.uk/research/PhDArea/saeed/

This test is designed to judge whether a person's basic mindset is conducive to programming. The questions look programming-specific, but there is actually no correct answer to any specific question. What it looks at is whether or not the person can create a cohesive mental model and apply it consistently to all the questions. So instead of rating how many questions you get right, it's "graded" on whether each answer is consistent with the rest, no matter which specific answers are chosen.

The premise of the test, which is controversial, is that you're basically born with the right mindset, or you are not. The results bear this out - those who cannot answer the questions in a consistent manner before getting any programming instruction still do not answer them consistently after a year of classes. And those people have a very high rate of dropping out of computer study, or continue to struggle even after going into programming jobs.

My guess is that nearly any INTP can do that, it's what we do. If you've been at it for a while, if you feel like you get the way computers "think", if you aren't struggling with basic concepts (like loops, branching, functions, etc), and if you still find it enjoyable, you probably already have the right mindset. The rest is just learning and experience. In developing that, there's no substitute for working out as many problems as you can and coding solutions for them. Even simple things done just for exercise work for this, but they need to be real-world kind of problems, not the stupid things they teach in classes like outputting the Fibonacci sequence.

The other thing is learning more than one language. I think it's the biggest flaw in the way people are taught to think about programming, that it is seen as language specific. It's like teaching auto mechanics to be "socket wrench mechanics", or "Phillips screwdriver mechanics", rather than teaching them how to just fix cars and how to use all the tools needed to do that, and how to choose the proper one for each task. I wince whenever I see someone starting out say "I am a VB programmer", or "I am a C programmer". It's fine to have a language or two you are most proficient at, but if you're just a "C programmer", then you aren't really a programmer.

As soon as you are comfortable with Perl, try Python, or C, or just about anything. This will help show you the difference between syntax and core concepts like structure, flow control, etc. If you develop those basic skills, the terminology and syntax problems become just a matter of detail, and languages become almost interchangeable after a while.

Getting a good sense of design takes longer, but it will come. Especially when you get into object oriented programming. I was doing OOP for two years before polymorphism really clicked as a design concept, even though I understood it mechanically pretty quickly. After 7-8 years of professional programming, I'm still learning things about good design.

Good luck. Keep at it, it sounds like you're on the right track already.

 

[Jesin]

I actually started with TI BASIC, which is ugh in many ways. After that I went on to Python at the suggestion of a friend, and then Java for my CS class when I hit high school. Next, Paul Graham's essays convinced me to try Lisp. People on the arclanguage.org forums brought up Haskell and Factor. I've tried a little Factor, and almost no Haskell, but I plan to do that, and also Erlang and Smalltalk.

 

[Wisp]

I know very (read: very) little of TI BASIC, though I do know a little... Lost my TI though so I can't work it in class... I'm learning perl as well as BASH right now, and I understand the way computers work and am comfortable with it, I just don't know syntax familiarly (is that a word...?) enough to see the way, or the most efficient way to get it to do what I want. I learn quickly though, and I understand what I learn.

 

[Jesin]

To clarify: I was saying what path I took in learning programming, not recommending it. I do not recommend TI BASIC at all. Also, very few modern programming languages have all-caps names (C is only one letter, so it's an exception). Perl not PERL, Bash or bash not BASH, Lisp not LISP anymore, Python not PYTHON, and so on.

Oh, by the way, if you have a problem with syntax, use Lisp. It hardly has any syntax at all.

 

[whojgalt]

Lisp. It hardly has any syntax at all.

For some reason, I find that a perverse way of looking at it.

I've been looking at Paul Graham as well. I like his style, and need to find more time to get involved in Arc.

 

[Wisp]

Actually (and I've done research on this, they standardized language names a while back. Names that are acronyms are all caps. Practical Extreaction and Reposrt Languages condenses to PERL. Bourne Again Shell condenses to BASh or BASH.

 

[Jesin]

No. You fail.

Perl does not stand for Practical Extraction and Report Language any more than it stands for Pathologically Eclectic Rubbish Lister. Those are backronyms, not acronyms, and writing PERL in all caps is considered a shibboleth in the Perl community. Just ask the Perl Monks.

ou will never see anyone familiar with *nix culture spell BASH in all caps, in fact, it's more commonly called bash.

Whereas LISP used to stand for LISt Processing, it doesn't anymore. No Lisper calls it LISP. It has become Lisp.

No language with a healthy culture around it has an all-caps name. Not PERL, not LISP, not BASH, not PYTHON, not RUBY, not even JAVA. Again, C is one character, so that's an exception.

 

[Wisp]

Eh. Informally, you're right. Technically, my logic is infallible. I have no faith in typings on the interwebs...

 

[Likpok]

ou will never see anyone familiar with *nix culture spell BASH in all caps, in fact, it's more commonly called bash.

It appears that Bash is similar to Perl in capitalization. That is, bash is the interpreter, and Bash is the language. Although... looking at the GNU site, they appear to use BASH and Bash interchangeably. Wikipedia uses Bash exclusively.

And as far as languages go, I recommend learning an assembly language (not x86, though), and C. Specifically to understand the stack and functions. It will also implicitly teach you about the difference between pass-by-value and pass-by-reference.

 

[Jesin]

This related link popped up on news.yc:
http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2008/05/dynamic-languages-strike-back.html

 

[murkrow]

I have one answer to every computer question:

wait for my brother to fix it.