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Help with Career

davidintp

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This post is mainly for those INTPs who have figured out their professional life.

I need help figuring out the next step in my career. I'm an INTP who grew up in a world where being extroverted, detail-oriented, and able to make quick decisions was the only option. Wealthy neighborhood, schmoozing, networking, being part of certain groups etc. But I naturally gravitated towards computers, was attracted by hacking and keygen music, as well as by fixing and improving my PC. I sucked at sciences and at math though. Was better at languages. After high school I decided to go to college for filmmaking.

Chose directing, then producing (was interested in intellectual property right at some point). Moved to LA with my friends and did a million different gigs, from Production Assistant to assistant editor, to camera operator, back to production assistant, then started an editing business that failed because I was too introverted to talk to new clients even though my editing is pretty good.

I gave up my dream because I couldn't find any occupation within film that I really enjoyed and moved back to the east coast to be with my family and my girlfriend. Found no film or editing work and was more interested in getting married than my career. Was looking for a job that made more money than a filmmaking job (never ever made enough money to feel secure) and became a car salesman by necessity. While I'm still fascinated with the psychology of selling I never enjoyed the actual selling part.

So I got three IT certifications (A+, Net+, Sec+). However, I didn't get a job in IT because of my background in film. I did got a job as a software sales rep (huge income potential). I was very good at calling new clients and setting up meetings but now having been promoted to sales rep I have no success even though I work extremely hard. My manager says my problem is that I overthink everything. I find the sales process repetitive and nobody wants to buy from me. I don't connect with random people on the phone aren't asking me to fix their problems.

The good thing is that our leadership likes me, sees how hard I work, and wants to support me in any way. I'm wondering if I should talk to our CTO to see if I'm a better fit for the IT department. The problem is that I'll most likely start at zero again and this move may jeopardize my current position. And which area in IT should I pursue? Aren't there already too many people with IT degrees who are so much better than me?

Also, I'm getting married in 3 months and again, I shouldn't jeopardize our stability.

I have friends who are consultants who would help me if I ever wanted to give it a shot as a consultant. I just don't know (like always) where I should go and if I'm actually going to find a job that I'll keep for a while so I don't have to be stuck in entry level positions all my life (I'm already 29).

I would greatly appreciate any possible solutions.

P.S. I spend several days watching every youtube video on intps and read most career related posts in this forum before I took the step to write my own post.:elephant:
 

Pyropyro

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Can you mix IT, salesmanship and film to make ads/digital films that your marketing guys can work with?
 

Inquisitor

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I'm back in school for comp sci (second bachelor's) and I'm in my 30s if it makes you feel any better. I've been taking classes now intensively for about a year. Check out Architect's posts for more info. Also scorpiomover. Those guys are software engineers. I'm not.

I toyed with the idea of filmmaking/acting/directing for a while, but ultimately decided I didn't love it enough to face the insane competition. I am sure there is some way for you to leverage your experience in film in a comp sci/software engineering role. Sounds like it could be fun. I don't think IT or consulting is the way to go in the sense that it's probably not going to be as intrinsically satisfying as pure engineering/programming. I did management consulting briefly (~6 months) but found it distasteful.

Lastly, forget stability. You're younger than I am. Now is the time to take risks and make those big career moves. If you're at all interested in coding, I'd say go back to school and get the degree. You can be finished in a couple years. Otherwise, maybe at least give programming a try at night or take a few evening/comm. college classes if you're that worried about stability. You can do that while you work in the IT department. Good luck.
 

Tannhauser

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Lastly, forget stability. You're younger than I am. Now is the time to take risks and make those big career moves.

I agree with this (hey, I'm agreeing with Inquisitor for once), but not necessarily that you should go to back to school. I say find a start-up company – they need versatile and hard-working people like yourself. Even better, in a start-up you can do whatever you want as along as you provide results and good ideas.
 

Architect

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Familiar enough story. Actually I know an INTP (I'm convinced) graduating from High School who wants to go into film (he's convinced). Nothing I can say will dissuade of course, I see it as mostly an inferior grip attraction that won't last through college, or not much beyond at least. Your post gives some support for that idea.

As for changing tracks much better now than later, 29 seems old but in a few years you'll realize you were a baby. By and by it really will be too late.
 

davidintp

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Thank you everyone for your suggestions and thoughts. I looked into software engineering and developing. I have no idea whether or not I'll like it.

@pyropyro and architect: That's a logical idea, yes. But it sucks making these promotional videos. You don't have a lot of independence. Everybody has their opinion and most people's opinions suck because they don't know how to make a video. That's the problem with anything film that has a $ sign attached to it. Too many cooks in the kitchen. Film for yourself or on the side is fine.

So maybe down the line I should probably take coding classes at night. I definitely think I'll like the idea of creating something just by typing on a black screen that has white letters. Sounds soothing.
 

Sly-fy

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Obviously you David have experimented with working in film and such, but I`ll just add my two cents about that particular career for anyone whom it may concern...

Think twice about going into film if you`re an INTP, you`re likely to get bored of that life pretty quickly and feel like your stagnating and that the industry has no further spiritual fulfillment to offer you. Trust me, even if you can get a job in the industry which is extremely competitive and closed, requires a lot of networking and schmoozing, vast human interaction etc. so it`s extremely energy draining and anxiety inducing, and it`s more about who you know rather than what you know.

I have a bachelor`s degree in film which isn`t worth the paper it`s written on, and the only way I got any jobs I ever had in that industry was through connections made over many years, because believe me, that`s all that matters, sadly. What`s more, you`re likely to be stuck doing non-creative jobs for many, many years along the lines of getting coffees for people, and the most hands-on work you could hope for is to work a camera like me, albeit with direction from other people and zero creative input, which to me feels suffocating.

Right now I`m thinking of leaving media after 6 years since graduating, (probably 8 years all together since I started working as a cameraman contractor in my second year of studies) and am seriously considering doing a master in psychology, since I feel that, unlike with media, psychology offers an ever-growing, never-ending pool of knowledge and self-discovery, as well as offering a platform to fundamentally help and understand people by reaching into your pool of knowledge and skills, and discovering new, creative ways to solve problems etc.

But, to each his own. Maybe not every INTP has the same disappointing experience in film and media like I have had overall.

P.S. I`m 28 and divorced, married at 24, had a kid at 25, divorced now. So don`t necessarily think that the sooner you "settle-down" the better.
 

davidintp

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Obviously you David have experimented with working in film and such, but I`ll just add my two cents about that particular career for anyone whom it may concern...

Think twice about going into film if you`re an INTP, you`re likely to get bored of that life pretty quickly and feel like your stagnating and that the industry has no further spiritual fulfillment to offer you. Trust me, even if you can get a job in the industry which is extremely competitive and closed, requires a lot of networking and schmoozing, vast human interaction etc. so it`s extremely energy draining and anxiety inducing, and it`s more about who you know rather than what you know.

I have a bachelor`s degree in film which isn`t worth the paper it`s written on, and the only way I got any jobs I ever had in that industry was through connections made over many years, because believe me, that`s all that matters, sadly. What`s more, you`re likely to be stuck doing non-creative jobs for many, many years along the lines of getting coffees for people, and the most hands-on work you could hope for is to work a camera like me, albeit with direction from other people and zero creative input, which to me feels suffocating.

Right now I`m thinking of leaving media after 6 years since graduating, (probably 8 years all together since I started working as a cameraman contractor in my second year of studies) and am seriously considering doing a master in psychology, since I feel that, unlike with media, psychology offers an ever-growing, never-ending pool of knowledge and self-discovery, as well as offering a platform to fundamentally help and understand people by reaching into your pool of knowledge and skills, and discovering new, creative ways to solve problems etc.

But, to each his own. Maybe not every INTP has the same disappointing experience in film and media like I have had overall.

P.S. I`m 28 and divorced, married at 24, had a kid at 25, divorced now. So don`t necessarily think that the sooner you "settle-down" the better.


Haha sounds familiar. I was a camera operator on Gator Boys for a while, which was awesome in my mind but not fun when you were dealing with rednecks all day. I also had a kid at 25. Are you sure you're not me??

It's funny, my upstairs neighbor turns out to be solutions architect. He works very little and makes a pretty good living just solving problems in data center. Sounds pretty nice to me.

A little piece of advice to you, Sly-Fy: try not only to focus on what's best for you but also how you can help people. Who do you want to serve and how can you best serve them? That's something we intps seem to forget sometimes... (it's so easy to give others advice, but for ourselves that's a different story).
 

Inquisitor

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A little piece of advice to you, Sly-Fy: try not only to focus on what's best for you but also how you can help people. Who do you want to serve and how can you best serve them? That's something we intps seem to forget sometimes... (it's so easy to give others advice, but for ourselves that's a different story).

Funny you should say that.

My overriding motivation for many years was trying to figure out how I could best serve humanity. I've entertained everything from being a poverty researcher at the World Bank (I even visited the Grameen Bank in Bangladesh at one point) to third-world doctoring a la Paul Farmer, being a neurosurgeon or Chinese Medicine or Ayurvedic physician, to becoming an analytical psychologist. Now I realize that was (mostly) just my inferior f*cking with me. I no longer give it [helping humanity] much thought and am almost totally self-serving now. I feel much more at peace and lighter inside as a result.

Once I realized that with a few notable exceptions, all work is honorable, the question then becomes in which job in which career will I have the maximum competitive advantage? For me the hypothesis right now is software engineering, but it may shift to something more investigative...we'll see.

The "notable exceptions" I mentioned above are pretty well covered by Buddhism:
dealing in weapons, human beings (slavery, people smuggling, certain types of prostitution and living off the income generated by it), trade in flesh, manufacturing and selling alcohol and poisons

Of course there are others as well, and obviously how one works matters just as much as the industry/company one chooses, but overall, I would say the vast majority of jobs/careers add value to society in some small way and are therefore "helpful" to humanity.
 

davidintp

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Funny you should say that.

My overriding motivation for many years was trying to figure out how I could best serve humanity. I've entertained everything from being a poverty researcher at the World Bank (I even visited the Grameen Bank in Bangladesh at one point) to third-world doctoring a la Paul Farmer, being a neurosurgeon or Chinese Medicine or Ayurvedic physician, to becoming an analytical psychologist. Now I realize that was (mostly) just my inferior f*cking with me. I no longer give it [helping humanity] much thought and am almost totally self-serving now. I feel much more at peace and lighter inside as a result.

Once I realized that with a few notable exceptions, all work is honorable, the question then becomes in which job in which career will I have the maximum competitive advantage? For me the hypothesis right now is software engineering, but it may shift to something more investigative...we'll see.

The "notable exceptions" I mentioned above are pretty well covered by Buddhism:


Of course there are others as well, and obviously how one works matters just as much as the industry/company one chooses, but overall, I would say the vast majority of jobs/careers add value to society in some small way and are therefore "helpful" to humanity.

Man, that's deep.
 

Artsu Tharaz

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You could be a carer, but that would be too easy.
 

Architect

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My overriding motivation for many years was trying to figure out how I could best serve humanity. I've entertained everything from being a poverty researcher at the World Bank (I even visited the Grameen Bank in Bangladesh at one point) to third-world doctoring a la Paul Farmer, being a neurosurgeon or Chinese Medicine or Ayurvedic physician, to becoming an analytical psychologist. Now I realize that was (mostly) just my inferior f*cking with me. I no longer give it [helping humanity] much thought and am almost totally self-serving now. I feel much more at peace and lighter inside as a result.

Yeah, wow inferior grip.

Once I realized that with a few notable exceptions, all work is honorable

Yup

the question then becomes in which job in which career will I have the maximum competitive advantage? For me the hypothesis right now is software engineering, but it may shift to something more investigative...we'll see.

Software can easily be investigative. You're always pushing the boundaries, everywhere. Unless you're stuck on some old system maintenance work you'll be doing new.

Pure investigative jobs aren't often that. My job in experimental physics was purely investigative, but on subjects that don't matter, and were just adding digits to already known values, that nobody cares about. All the low hanging fruit has already been picked, in most investigative fields.
 

Inquisitor

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Software can easily be investigative. You're always pushing the boundaries, everywhere. Unless you're stuck on some old system maintenance work you'll be doing new.

Pure investigative jobs aren't often that. My job in experimental physics was purely investigative, but on subjects that don't matter, and were just adding digits to already known values, that nobody cares about. All the low hanging fruit has already been picked, in most investigative fields.

Good to know. Academia is looking less and less attractive, but then again, I have zero work experience in software so no way to compare. According to my department chair, 4/5 graduates end up in industry with the rest pursuing grad studies in CS. Data science would seem like a good way to combine interest in economics w/CS. Don't know enough yet though.
 

davidintp

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One thing is for sure: there is a shortage of software engineers and thousands upon thousands of jobs to be filled.

I hope they have night classes for coding in my area...
 

davidintp

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Just wanted to update all of you. I'm learning Javascript on codeacademy.com and yes, it feels like I'm in my element. The coding drives me nuts but in a good way. And it's nice to see the result of your code.

Thanks for all of your inputs. I'll have to figure out how long it will take me to learn coding on my own until I can make a living off of it. It's all up in the air for now.

I certainly encourage other intps to try coding.
 

Analyzer

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Learning to code is the new thing across the country, perhaps world. You see ads for it everywhere and rip-off coding boot camps. First of all you can learn all of it on your own, online or by networking with others. You don't need to go to a school and get a comp sci degree unless you want to work for a big corporation/government or want the credential for whatever reason. The most cutting edge stuff in tech is cryptocurrencies/blockchain which If I'm not mistaken only a school in Cyprus teaches. That's the future and you'll distinguish yourself from everyone getting into the field. And you'll only learn by diving head in.
 

knyl2013

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Almost all of the INTP-CAREER-HELP posts ended up with learning to program, lol:elephant:
 

ENTP lurker

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For me stabiility comes from the ability to combine skills. Teaching math and sciences gives stability, problem solving and development etc. On free time you can go nuts. My issue is right distance. From too friendly to opposite etc. It is something you have to learn to handle. I think most jobs out there have their personal sour points...
 

davidintp

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I wanted to update everyone on my progress since a lot of you motivated me to become more invested in software engineering.

I've been learning Javascript and SQL on codeacademy but want to take the next step by taking a General Assembly course on Javascript in September to become really proficient at it. These courses open doors to connect with hiring managers in the Northern Virginia/DC area.

Also, I've recently completed a course on manual software testing, which is in very high demand and if it all works out will be my stepping stone to get into a chill IT job that allows me to learn Javascript after I come home from work. I currently do software sales and I'm emotionally drained every day.

I welcome any comments/opinions on my plan to first get into QA and then work my way up to become a Javascript developer. Please be sensitive because I don't want to veer off my plan just because another intp writes a truly convincing argument against my plan (I remember reading that intps create genius plans only to destroy those plans a few moments later because we're our harshest critic).

Thanks everybody!
 

hopeless85

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Just one comment on Data Science. The problem is that it is still in the corporate world so you will face mountains of ignorance and idiocy which you cannot imagine. I work in that "field" right now. And people with IQs of 105 will hire you and ask you to predict the weather at 4:25 PM on May 2nd in 3025 with a toothpick and a rubber band...."and could you get that to me today?"
 

davidintp

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Hey guys,

It happened again! I did so much research that I'm clueless where to begin.

I was going to take this Javascript course in September but now I'm reading everywhere that I need to learn HTML5 and CSS first. That would interfere with my goal in studying to be a QA tester in August.

Do any of the experience software engineers here have an idea how to best build a career growth plan?

There are just too many options!
 

Interdimensionist

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Hey guys,

It happened again! I did so much research that I'm clueless where to begin.

I was going to take this Javascript course in September but now I'm reading everywhere that I need to learn HTML5 and CSS first. That would interfere with my goal in studying to be a QA tester in August.

Do any of the experience software engineers here have an idea how to best build a career growth plan?

There are just too many options!

I've only just started teaching myself programming this year so take my advice with a grain of salt, I'd say HTML, CSS & JavaScript are essential if you want to get into front end development, that is designing web pages and simple applications. If you want to get into software development then I'd say you really need to learn some of the more advanced languages like C++ & PHP, SQL would be extremely useful as well. A background in HTML, CSS and Java will make this a lot easier so if you're totally new to computer science then I'd recommend starting at the beginning and working your way up. I'd recommend learning Python as well as it seems to be the language most developers end up relying on in the long run anyway.

Edit: I just read you've been teaching yourself SQL & JavaScript online, I'd say learning HTML & CSS alongside to supplement these skills can only benefit you in the long run, I use Codecademy as well for PHP and FreeCodeCamp which I recommend highly for learning HTML, CSS & JavaScript.

Apologies, QA tester, not software developer. Maybe it would be a good idea to become familiar with the most common languages used, find out what you'd be expected to test out in the places you're applying to then teach yourself as much of those programmes as you can and keep a note of flaws or improvements you can make to the code, test them out to back up that you can clean it up, improve something, and build a few things yourself in those languages then you have something to talk to about with potential employers.
Books are decent resources for looking things up as well but there is such a vast amount of info available for free online you can teach yourself anything without paying a cent, you just have to be persistent in looking things up MIT open course ware on youtube has some decent computer science videos as well, you may wanna check them out if you desire a deeper understanding of the principal concepts & theories.
 
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