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Have you ever gone to a psychic?

just george

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And if so, what did they say?

I recently communicated with a psychic for the first time online. The guy couldn't see me, had never heard of me, couldn't look me up etc because it was done in a chat box, and when I asked a couple of very specific questions about something that I am working on (a technical device) answered instantly and correctly.

The level of complexity was a bit like me asking you guys what is wrong with my car, getting an instant response that there is a blown fuse on the left hand side and something wrong with the front right wheel, then checking the car to find a blown fuse and leaky valve.

It was quite strange.

Anyone?
 

BigApplePi

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Yes. Three times. The first was a famous psychic, Frank Andrews.
http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/culture/features/n_8624/index3.html

I can't believe I recalled his name. I went down to his place and the fee was $15 at that time. He brought out his cards. Said a few things, one of which was I would do well by having some land in the country. At that time I was living in the city, single and had no idea about land. Turned out today to be true. Anyway I kept a stone face and responded to nothing. I wanted to test him because I didn't believe in it. Guess what? He said he wasn't hitting on anything and gave me my money back! I was impressed only by that and concluded only he must be a good psychologist.

I have two more psychic experiences which were more productive and puzzle me to this day.
 

Pinion

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Yes. Three times. The first was a famous psychic, Frank Andrews.
http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/culture/features/n_8624/index3.html

I can't believe I recalled his name. I went down to his place and the fee was $15 at that time. He brought out his cards. Said a few things, one of which was I would do well by having some land in the country. At that time I was living in the city, single and had no idea about land. Turned out today to be true. Anyway I kept a stone face and responded to nothing. I wanted to test him because I didn't believe in it. Guess what? He said he wasn't hitting on anything and gave me my money back! I was impressed only by that and concluded only he must be a good psychologist.

I have two more psychic experiences which were more productive and puzzle me to this day.

What were they?
 
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You're taking this "Bullshit Artist" title next to your name rather far. You're being taken advantage of by hustlers. From conspiracy theorists, pseudo-scientists, New Age woo people, anti-vaccines and now straight up psychics.

Why charge you some insignificant fee when they could get a million from the James Randi foundation for simply demonstrating their abilities?
 

just george

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You're taking this "Bullshit Artist" title next to your name rather far. You're being taken advantage of by hustlers. From conspiracy theorists, pseudo-scientists, New Age woo people, anti-vaccines and now straight up psychics.

Why charge you some insignificant fee when they could get a million from the James Randi foundation for simply demonstrating their abilities?
I didn't pay anyone.

There is a place on the internet that I go to where some of these people chat and chill out. I made friends, and asked.

Now watch your tone, and your language. Someone might declare that you need to be timed out. Hipocrite.
 

Polaris

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I speculate (read: SPECULATE) that genuinely psychic people somehow cross the human psychological boundaries of perceptions of time; in essence, applying the concept of time-travel to a quantum level. If a sub-atomic particle can be two places at once (which breaks the boundaries of the concept of time as a forward moving arrow), why couldn't human perception be? Human perception being a product of neural-quantum level activity......

If we think about the principle of quantum superposition; to be aware of one's thoughts, one would have to 'arrest' the moment of thought in order to observe it, that is: go one or more quantum steps "back" in time to recall the thought while still in the process of thinking. This gives the impression that the thought or perception is confined to one area of space/time. So, why couldn't we also move quantum steps forward in time, thereby perceiving events/thought patterns associated with a different area of space/time?

Or am I :crazy:
 

Analyzer

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yeah that's where you find an INFJ
 

Cherry Cola

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Yes. Three times. The first was a famous psychic, Frank Andrews.
http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/culture/features/n_8624/index3.html

I can't believe I recalled his name. I went down to his place and the fee was $15 at that time. He brought out his cards. Said a few things, one of which was I would do well by having some land in the country. At that time I was living in the city, single and had no idea about land. Turned out today to be true. Anyway I kept a stone face and responded to nothing. I wanted to test him because I didn't believe in it. Guess what? He said he wasn't hitting on anything and gave me my money back! I was impressed only by that and concluded only he must be a good psychologist.

I have two more psychic experiences which were more productive and puzzle me to this day.

If you stone face and don't respond he can't cold read you so no wonder it wasn't happening for him.

I kinda figure a lot of them cold reading psychics are INFJs, dunno how large a part of them are aware of what they are doing though.
 

cynibon

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'There is more between heaven and earth than is dreamt of in your philosophy.' Hamlet(?)

After enough of these kinds of things showed up in my life, I couldn't ignore them any more. Everybody has to make their own mind up. And decide if their experience is more valid than the consensus story. Shrug.
 

Cherry Cola

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No they don't. We know that all humans are susceptible to drawing faulty conclusions from profound experiences. Why should we let them figure that out themselves and be wrong about it as they so often will?

What you're talking is the same immunity to criticism which organized religion likes to draw upon. It's the same strange sanctuary where people keep their sublime and profound stuff kept away safe.
 
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I didn't pay anyone....There is a place on the internet that I go to where some of these people chat and chill out. I made friends, and asked.

Regardless, if they have real psychic abilities, then the James Randi foundation will give them a million dollars for simply demonstrating them. No one has ever, with that foundation or any other, demonstrated any testable supernatural abilities.
 

just george

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Regardless, if they have real psychic abilities, then the James Randi foundation will give them a million dollars for simply demonstrating them. No one has ever, with that foundation or any other, demonstrated any testable supernatural abilities.

What if they aren't interested in demonstrating anything to anyone? What if whatever they tune into is more interesting to them than a million dollars, or they have another reason for not wanting to?

Besides, "psychic" abilities have been proven in the lab quite nicely, ala "spooky particles".
 
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After enough of these kinds of things showed up in my life, I couldn't ignore them any more.

I've had a lot of weird things happen in my life as well. For a little while I was thinking maybe Jung was right about synchronicity and perhaps the Universe was engaged in a game with me. But then I read a really good mathematical argument against it. I no longer have a link but the general idea was that with a system as complex as life itself, alongside our natural tendency to look for patterns, these things are bound to happen. A real miracle would be if they didn't happen.

Synchronicity, or life's seemingly poetic nature, even if we were to leave that phenomena open-ended, would still not logically conclude that then psychic ability was also possible.
 

just george

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I speculate (read: SPECULATE) that genuinely psychic people somehow cross the human psychological boundaries of perceptions of time; in essence, applying the concept of time-travel to a quantum level. If a sub-atomic particle can be two places at once (which breaks the boundaries of the concept of time as a forward moving arrow), why couldn't human perception be? Human perception being a product of neural-quantum level activity......

If we think about the principle of quantum superposition; to be aware of one's thoughts, one would have to 'arrest' the moment of thought in order to observe it, that is: go one or more quantum steps "back" in time to recall the thought while still in the process of thinking. This gives the impression that the thought or perception is confined to one area of space/time. So, why couldn't we also move quantum steps forward in time, thereby perceiving events/thought patterns associated with a different area of space/time?

Or am I :crazy:

I don't think you're nuts.

A nobel prize was awarded to a guy who proved that human DNA receives and transmits radio waves. (I watched it in a TED talk, then looked it up).

Other experiments were done that showed that if you took human cells out of a person and put them in another room, and then got the still living person to watch a horror movie, then the changes in the human beings cells (electrical activity etc) manifested at the same time in the cells in the other room. Therefore, cells communicate even over distance.

Other observations are that when a mother gives birth to a child, some of that childs cells remain in the mother.

When you put those together, it suggests that the mother and child may communicate.

Then, other experiments were done that where a person was hooked up to a machine that registered shock etc, and the person was shown images. It was observed that the person would experience the shock/surprise corresponding to the picture before they actually saw the picture.

So, when you add that to the mix, we can say that some people can communicate with others (perhaps via radio frequency between cells or bodily structures) and that people can in some way experience what is going to happen before it happens.

Which, when you think about it, is a lot like what you'd expect a psychic to do.

I don't know one way or the other - I'm just a curious sort of person that doesn't believe anything at surface level, and have faith in my own convictions.

Still, the dots are connecting...
 

Cherry Cola

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What if they aren't interested in demonstrating anything to anyone? What if whatever they tune into is more interesting to them than a million dollars, or they have another reason for not wanting to?

Besides, "psychic" abilities have been proven in the lab quite nicely, ala "spooky particles".

What if bullshit excuse?

Psychics are also human beings, human beings tend to like prestige and money and doing the right thing, if psychic abilities were real the right thing would be to prove them so in order so that they may receive funding and recognition akin to scientific endeavors.

And "spooky particles" man, that's like saying "we've built a time machine!" because we now know how we could potentially travel in time. The existence of something that seemingly allows for a certain phenomenon doesn't mean that said phenomenon occurs.
 
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What if they aren't interested in demonstrating anything to anyone? What if whatever they tune into is more interesting to them than a million dollars, or they have another reason for not wanting to?

It is highly improbable that all these psychics exist out there but none of them want a million dollars or to illuminate the world by proving to it that these capacities actually exists.

Besides, "psychic" abilities have been proven in the lab quite nicely, ala "spooky particles".

Quantum entanglement is not evidence for psychic ability. New Age woo people often like to exaggerate its implications to induce far out ridiculous claims, but these claims are completely unsubstantiated by, and often contradicted by, actual evidence. I've said this to you before.

If someone had proven psychic abilities in a lab, as nicely as you suggest has actually happened, this would've resulted in major ripples and discussion throughout scientific communities, but has never actually happened
 

just george

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What if bullshit excuse?

Psychics are also human beings, human beings tend to like prestige and money and doing the right thing, if psychic abilities were real the right thing would be to prove them so in order so that they may receive funding and recognition akin to scientific endeavors.

And "spooky particles" man, that's like saying "we've built a time machine!" because we now know how we could potentially travel in time. The existence of something that seemingly allows for a certain phenomenon doesn't mean that said phenomenon occurs.

Listen buddy, I'm not making excuses for anyone.

I'm simply making the point that an absence of proof is not proof of absence.
 

just george

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It is highly improbable that all these psychics exist out there but none of them want a million dollars or to illuminate the world by proving to it that these capacities actually exists.



Quantum entanglement is not evidence for psychic ability. New Age woo people often like to exaggerate it's implications to induce far out ridiculous claims, but these claims are completely unsubstantiated by, and often contradicted by, actual evidence. I've said this to you before.

If someone had proven psychic abilities in a lab, as nicely as you suggest has actually happened, this would've resulted in major ripples and discussion throughout scientific communities, but has never actually happened

Spiral, I've been around long enough to know not to care what the establishment tells me to think, or care what is "accepted".

I have personally done things that are supposedly not possible. I called the local university to speak to their physics/engineering departments, and they laughed at me.

I offered to show them the prototype, and they wouldn't take 5 minutes to look at something physically in front of them doing something that they said couldn't be done.

Why should I concern myself with such people, or what they think? Why should anyone?
 

Polaris

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http://intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=9938&highlight=tim+minchin

Are you guys being effortfully open-minded? This shit blows my mind.

Not sure who you are targeting here, but nice Strawman.

Speculating (merely entertaining possibilities, as I distinctly highlighted in my first post, though alas; that seemed to be conveniently missed) ≠ New Age Mumbo Jumbo.

That is one of the principles of scientific discovery; to entertain a possibility of connections, then go on to test the hypotheses. Nothing New Age'ish about that process. Just because there is no proof right now that this could be possible does not exclude that it may be a possibility in the future. It is typical that these kind of responses come from non-scientists who think they understand how science works --- good scientists ask these questions (I know, because I work with scientists and have studied/worked in the field for more than 20 years).

Edit: Thanks Just George, I found that article. It is interesting, it's just a matter of finding out whether these types of signals also work in non-aqueous environments...
 

Hadoblado

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It was a general question, I was actually impressed by your post specifically. That you entertained the notion, thought out some potential moving parts, and still managed to categorise it as a possibility rather than a position requiring your protection, can only call for commendation. :king-twitter:

Edit: does that meant you straw-manned me? :confused:
 

Polaris

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It was a general question, I was actually impressed by your post specifically. That you entertained the notion, thought out some potential moving parts, and still managed to categorise it as a possibility rather than a position requiring your protection, can only call for commendation. :king-twitter:

Edit: does that meant you straw-manned me? :confused:

Oh right....woops :o



Hrm.....maybe....:storks:
 

just george

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Not sure who you are targeting here, but nice Strawman.

Speculating (merely entertaining possibilities, as I distinctly highlighted in my first post, though alas; that seemed to be conveniently missed) ≠ New Age Mumbo Jumbo.

That is one of the principles of scientific discovery; to entertain a possibility of connections, then go on to test the hypotheses. Nothing New Age'ish about that process. Just because there is no proof right now that this could be possible does not exclude that it may be a possibility in the future. It is typical that these kind of responses come from non-scientists who think they understand how science works --- good scientists ask these questions (I know, because I work with scientists and have studied/worked in the field for more than 20 years).

Edit: Thanks Just George, I found that article. It is interesting, it's just a matter of finding out whether these types of signals also work in non-aqueous environments...

There's a documentary called "beings of frequency" that has a lot of interesting stuff in it that you might like. They end up talking about RF from cell phone towers, but I wasn't particularly interested in that stuff - I prefer medical electronics.

Anyway, the stuff that interests me greatly (that I will explain simply or this post will be 8000 words lone full of formulas and diagrams) is that we can safely accept that DNA has properties that are similar to those of a radio frequency antenna, and that cells are constantly interacting with one another based on this principle (a really nice thought is that your cells sing to each other).

Anyway we can also accept that some frequencies of radiation are bad for human health, while others are good for human health. Microwaves, for example, are pretty terrible for human cells.

If there are "bad" frequencies that damage DNA, then surely there are "good" frequencies that would repair in some way positively alter human DNA.

You then start to think "what are the good frequencies, and how can we tell?" so you start looking at healthy cells versus cells with DNA damage and, from a physics point of view, ask yourself "what frequencies would naturally complement this antenna, mathematically?" and "how, exactly, does healthy DNA gradually change form a healthy natural state, to an out of whack shape? Is it one frequency, or a chorus of frequencies that eventually cause DNA degradation?"

Then you view the DNA as a 3D molecule and start to wonder why, exactly, the schumann frequency is required as a "carrier" frequency. On what axis, exactly, does the schumann frequency work? Is it acting alone, or is this a harmonic interaction, where the part of the radiation causing the effect is actually the discordance between the carrier frequency and the one you are pairing it up with?

Anyway all interesting questions from a strictly radio medical level.

It gets even more interesting when you look at the structures built in places like Egypt and Serbia, which are effectively man sized resonance chambers/waveform generators, and local legends which all point towards sound frequencies being in some way healing or ethereal.

Then you say all of this to someone at a university and they look at you like you're bonkers - and you just know that when you finally figure it out, they're the first ones who will tell you how obvious it all was, and how they knew it all along.
 

BigApplePi

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Regardless, if they have real psychic abilities, then the James Randi foundation will give them a million dollars for simply demonstrating them. No one has ever, with that foundation or any other, demonstrated any testable supernatural abilities.
SpiralH. I will be back with more on this. From where I left off on the topic you are right. No proof. I recall the Rhine Institute at Duke University but forget if they proved anything. I doubt it. Proof of psychic abilities would be a great discovery worth more than a million dollars.
 

BigApplePi

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Before I forget, are you guys familiar with that one can move things with their mind? If this hasn't been posted before, I'm sure you can Google it. I've done it. Add that to my obligation to post here. Think veterans with lost limbs who can now move artificial limbs.
 

NullPointer

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Just to clarify, Luc Montagnier won the Nobel prize for discovering HIV, he suggested DNA gives off radio waves afterwards, and this was not very well received, except in the homeopathic community.

Even if they *could* give off radio waves, how is it reasonable to believe this implies they can communicate? If a red Corvette emits red light, is it "communicating" with the blue car, which absorbs red light? Consider the computational complexity required to actually implement such a thing, consider the minuscule size of a DNA molecule, and consider *why* this would be required when nerve cells and hormones serve this exact purpose in a much more practical manner.

Does having "bad frequencies" imply that "good frequencies" must exist? No. Again, using cars as an analogy, the fact that it's possible to have a bad car accident does not imply it's possible to have a "good car accident", which repairs broken bones and reverses brain damage.

It's important to avoid making those sorts of logical fallacies if you're going to make inferences about things which are not commonly accepted. It's good to be skeptical of scientists, but be consistent. Don't accept Montagnier's opinion just because it's the most exciting, and then scoff at every scientist who disagrees with him.
 

Cherry Cola

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Listen buddy, I'm not making excuses for anyone.

I'm simply making the point that an absence of proof is not proof of absence.

You are never required to prove a negative.

spaghetti monster etc

But, you post on frequences effecting DNA was quite interesting, especially the connection to Architecture, never thought about that stuff.
 

BigApplePi

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Hustlers?

Here is one "ESP" experience I had. I was living with this girl who turned out to be a mistake. We were still friendly but I made it known I was amenable to her having another boyfriend so she would leave. She found a boyfriend. He was a rather conservative unassuming young lawyer or studying to be a lawyer. The girl told me he had a psychic ability. He could take a person's belonging of some sort, more notable their keys and "read" them. Now mind you this guy was not a show off. He told me his grandmother had this ability but he didn't want it known he was doing this kind of thing as it would not go well with this lawyer firm he wanted to work for. So much for background.

One day the girl told me she had taken a copy of my house keys and given them to him for a reading. This was without my knowledge. He told her what he saw was strange and didn't understand it. He saw:

1. Streets flashing by quickly out in the open but the seer was not in a car. This is made no sense to him.

2. He saw a room full of mirrors ... he said the person (me) must be looking at himself. "He must be very narcissistic" he told the girl.

That's what I recall. Here is me:

1. I ride a bike. Streets flashing by is exactly what I see in Manhattan. I look straight ahead but the images of cross streets goes to my peripheral vision. I must be aware as I run the red lights. The girl did not ride a bike and knowing her, it's unlikely she would have made this up and lied to me.

2. At the time I belonged to a gym in which just about every wall had a mirror. Everywhere you looked. After a while that just entered your unconscious and one forgot about it. The girl did not belong to any gym and probably didn't have this experience. Unlikely she was lying to me about this story.

The question here is, was this pure chance? Or was some kind of ESP communicated? Using my keys? That's weird. What theory could explain this? Give me a theory other than the girl lied or pure chance.
 

Cherry Cola

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The question here is, was this pure chance? Or was some kind of ESP communicated? Using my keys? That's weird. What theory could explain this? Give me a theory other than the girl lied or pure chance.

I think it was cold reading and pure chance, you sure he hadn't picked up on some little details about you?

There's also the girl, you being very narcissistic seems like a typical thing to help guide her from your arms to his, not that it was needed but how was he supposed to know?

The thing is there are an endless array of anecdotes like this one everywhere you look, yet nothings ever been proven whatsoever. It's obvious that the psychics have skills, but I don't think those extend beyond being really good at reading people and utilizing all the information - even if there are only tiny little pieces and snippets at hand - to paint a somewhat accurate big picture image of things. Combine that with an ability to make general statements that appear specific and a lot can be done.
 

just george

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Just to clarify, Luc Montagnier won the Nobel prize for discovering HIV, he suggested DNA gives off radio waves afterwards, and this was not very well received, except in the homeopathic community.

Even if they *could* give off radio waves, how is it reasonable to believe this implies they can communicate? If a red Corvette emits red light, is it "communicating" with the blue car, which absorbs red light? Consider the computational complexity required to actually implement such a thing, consider the minuscule size of a DNA molecule, and consider *why* this would be required when nerve cells and hormones serve this exact purpose in a much more practical manner.

Does having "bad frequencies" imply that "good frequencies" must exist? No. Again, using cars as an analogy, the fact that it's possible to have a bad car accident does not imply it's possible to have a "good car accident", which repairs broken bones and reverses brain damage.

It's important to avoid making those sorts of logical fallacies if you're going to make inferences about things which are not commonly accepted. It's good to be skeptical of scientists, but be consistent. Don't accept Montagnier's opinion just because it's the most exciting, and then scoff at every scientist who disagrees with him.

First things first, not only do they give off radio waves, but they have been recorded.

The experiment that was done was where the scientist put a complete piece of DNA in water in one test tube, and a pile of nucleotides in water in another test tube.

When the test tube containing DNA was subjected to certain radio frequencies, it caused the nucleotides in the other test tube to assemble themselves into a perfect copy of the DNA molecule.

Therefore, it has certainly been proven that "good" frequencies exist, since, after all, if you had cancer that was due to faulty DNA, could shoot radio frequencies at your own healthy cells so as to get them to communicate with the cancer cell, thus causing the cancer cell DNA to adjust itself back to a healthy state...then I think that such a frequency would qualify as being "good" :)

My theory is therefore a Logical Fallacy Free Zone, thankyouverymuch :elephant:
 

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My parents went to a psychic show years ago although they weren't sitting with each other.

During the show, the psychic picked them both out and said that they were together.

They had been dating, but this was a secret to their family and friends.
 

BigApplePi

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I think it was cold reading and pure chance, you sure he hadn't picked up on some little details about you?

There's also the girl you being very narcissistic seems like a typical thing to help guide her from your arms to his, not that it was needed but how was he supposed to know?

The thing is there are an endless array of anecdotes like this one everywhere you look, yet nothings ever been proven whatsoever. It's obvious that the psychics have skills, but I don't think those extend beyond being really good at reading people and utilizing all the information, regardless how tiny it is, to do that.
All you said are possibilities, yet I don't think I had met him yet. Furthermore the girl was not the type to talk of other people that much. I don't think she could though not stupid. She was smart but too self-centered herself to talk of other people ... like telling him I went to a gym or rode a bike. Don't know. Here's the last anecdote about this guy and I saved it for last.

The girl had a girlfriend whose father had died recently. She wanted a reading of her father. So my girl roommate arranged a meeting of this "psychic lawyer", and the girlfriend. My roommate invited me. Naturally I was interested and happy to be there. The girlfriend was to bring an object belonging to her father. She had her father's ring.

Okay. We are all together. The lawyer was given the ring. After an appropriate pause, he said he saw an image which startled him. It was a face or part of a face with heavy bushy eyebrows. The girlfriend said her father had those features. Mind you I watched for embellishments or false readings. No. That was all. Nothing happened after that. Note that while we could attribute this to luck or coincidence, there was an absence of false reading or "off-base" reading. This reading was on the button. True, there could have been cheating like showing him a picture of the father ahead of time, but I don't think so. No motive. No reward. No one cared.

It's too bad I was so passive. Today I would have pushed this lawyer for more testing. Even a double blind test I cooked up years later ... but that's another story. My impression is something was going on with this lawyer. It seems more than lies, impressions, psychology and lucky readings. Yet we are missing that double-blind test.
 

BigApplePi

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My parents went to a psychic show years ago although they weren't sitting with each other.

During the show, the psychic picked them both out and said that they were together.

They had been dating, but this was a secret to their family and friends.
It didn't help any that they were wearing the same T-shirt or that they were seen together earlier, lol. Anyway this test can be duplicated. Bring in lots of husbands and wives, separate them, have them dress randomly, not look at each other, etc. Then have psychologists guess the partners versus these psychics guessing. See what the statistics show.
 

Hawkeye

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It didn't help any that they were wearing the same T-shirt or that they were seen together earlier, lol. Anyway this test can be duplicated. Bring in lots of husbands and wives, separate them, have them dress randomly, not look at each other, etc. Then have psychologists guess the partners versus these psychics guessing. See what the statistics show.

They arrived separately with their own group of friends. :p

I don't believe in psychic abilities however.
 

BigApplePi

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They arrived separately with their own group of friends. :p

I don't believe in psychic abilities however.
I see the task of scientists or even INTP's is to either debunk or provide a theory of what is going on. One can move things with their mind. I've done so. Here my personal story.

The wife and I attended, "Our Bodies Ourselves" in southern Manhattan. Or at least I think it was that exhibition because I can't always remember where I was at the time (poor Se observation). There was a table much like a ping-pong table with a "ball" or something like that on it. One was supposed to stand on either side of the table and each person was to move the ball by sheer force of mind to the other side.

What happened is I played this game with my wife. The ball moved back and forth a little. I tried to force the ball to her side with my will. Eventually I couldn't stop it and she won. Later we came back and after thinking it over I asked her if we could try again. This time I relaxed, blanked my mind (I think) and tried not to be conscious of effort. The ball rapidly moved to her side and I won. She hadn't caught on.
 

Puffy

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I speculate (read: SPECULATE) that genuinely psychic people somehow cross the human psychological boundaries of perceptions of time; in essence, applying the concept of time-travel to a quantum level. If a sub-atomic particle can be two places at once (which breaks the boundaries of the concept of time as a forward moving arrow), why couldn't human perception be? Human perception being a product of neural-quantum level activity......

If we think about the principle of quantum superposition; to be aware of one's thoughts, one would have to 'arrest' the moment of thought in order to observe it, that is: go one or more quantum steps "back" in time to recall the thought while still in the process of thinking. This gives the impression that the thought or perception is confined to one area of space/time. So, why couldn't we also move quantum steps forward in time, thereby perceiving events/thought patterns associated with a different area of space/time?

Or am I :crazy:

yeah that's where you find an INFJ

Indeed. :D
 

cynibon

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No they don't. We know that all humans are susceptible to drawing faulty conclusions from profound experiences.

We *know* this? It's true everywhere, always?

Why should we let them figure that out themselves and be wrong about it as they so often will?
I find this attitude disquieting. I interpret it to mean that you have the right to determine what is ok and not ok for someone else to think. Do you really mean that?

What you're talking is the same immunity to criticism which organized religion likes to draw upon. It's the same strange sanctuary where people keep their sublime and profound stuff kept away safe.

And there is something wrong with people having 'sublime and profound stuff kept away safe'? What would that be?
 
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Puffy

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That is one of the principles of scientific discovery; to entertain a possibility of connections, then go on to test the hypotheses. Nothing New Age'ish about that process.

Basically that ^.

I've never been to a psychic, but I have observed (and in recent months have tried) a few things that could be considered "occultic", and I expect that I will continue to as it interests me.

The important thing is to take a phenomena, test it thoroughly, consider possible angles. Try holding a worldview that regards it with a degree of truth, alternate to one that regards it with skepticism.

These things to me are only worthwhile if they can reliably (re)produce a particular affect, or information, for consideration. The value is then in that affect/ information. I started out experimenting with Jung's synchronicity, but then found possible ways to relate it to various things like building, psychogeography and complexity science. There's nothing irrational about continuing to experiment with something that interests you, the irrationality is in barring research just because it appears to be against your own dogma on a surface level.

There are perhaps other dangers in the territory, (the want for their to be "something more", etc,) but as long as you continue to self-examine yourself and your motivations, I personally think it's interesting.
 

Cherry Cola

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We *know* this? It's true everywhere, always?


I find this attitude disquieting. I interpret it to mean that you have the right to determine what is ok and not ok for someone else to think. Do you really mean that?



And there is something wrong with people having 'sublime and profound stuff kept away safe'? What would that be?

Of course I don't know it to be true everywhere all the time. I just mean to say that arguments along the lines of "if you had seen it with your own eyes", "you just don't understand, I could feel that it was real" etc should not be taken seriously because nothings been proven true, and we know that the brain causes these experiences naturally. Those types of arguments wouldn't be taken seriously in any other context, but when it comes to the supernatural and spiritual domain anything seems to go a lot of the time.

People can and should think whatever they want, discussing is another matter.

The problem is that they like to keep this core of their beliefs locked away safely with the rest of it actively being displayed.

-"Ghosts are real - I saw one and spoke to it - and so is Jesus do this or go to hell!"
-"But look it makes no sense because x and also there is no evidence whatsoever"
-"what the fuck are you meaning to say I didn't see a ghost and speak to it?! Who are you to question what I've been through! I know this my own senses blablabla... also who are you to criticize my beliefs?"

The above scenario is still far too common.
 

cynibon

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I just mean to say that arguments along the lines of "if you had seen it with your own eyes", "you just don't understand, I could feel that it was real" etc should not be taken seriously because nothings been proven true, and we know that the brain causes these experiences naturally. Those types of arguments wouldn't be taken seriously in any other context, but when it comes to the supernatural and spiritual domain anything seems to go a lot of the time.

You realize that *your* logical argument is also based on this logic? You have a *belief* that consensus reality is true because of your *experience*. Consensus reality is not a fact, it's a belief. So why is this experience of consensus reality any more valid than any other experience?

An analogy. Imagine that you've lived in Chicago all your life. All you know is Chicago. You meet a guy who tells you there is a place called New York. You ask him for proof. "Show me this New York." He says, "I've been there, it's real." You laugh at him, and say, "That's not proof." He says, "I can tell you how to get there." You tell him, "Why would I want to go to an imaginary place? You're deluded. All that exists is Chicago." Or Malmo and Stockholm. :)

Your argument is the equivalent of saying that because all you've ever experienced is Chicago, all that exists is Chicago. And the only proof you'll accept that something besides Chicago exists, has to be demonstrated in Chicago.

Over the centuries, millions of people have questioned the assumption that all that exists is Chicago. And thousands of them have 'gone to New York'. They've left behind instructions of how to get there. But it is impossible to 'get to New York' without making the effort to go there. And who would make the effort if they didn't at least entertain the idea it exists.

A wild aside. There's a story by Ursula K LeGuin, 'Those Who Leave Omalas'. She's exploring a different question in that story, but the people who try to 'go to New York' remind me of a description she gives there. From memory, 'one day, they suddenly drop all their affairs. They stop, in the middle of whatever they are doing, and leave'.

People can and should think whatever they want, discussing is another matter.

The problem is that they like to keep this core of their beliefs locked away safely with the rest of it actively being displayed.

-"Ghosts are real - I saw one and spoke to it - and so is Jesus do this or go to hell!"
-"But look it makes no sense because x and also there is no evidence whatsoever"
-"what the fuck are you meaning to say I didn't see a ghost and speak to it?! Who are you to question what I've been through! I know this my own senses blablabla... also who are you to criticize my beliefs?"

The above scenario is still far too common.

I think you're making the assumption that the only proof has to be in terms of consensus reality. i.e. it isn't real if it doesn't accord with consensus reality, can't be demonstrated in consensus reality. But consensus reality is just another belief! I'm not saying you have to believe what other people believe, or even that what they believe is true, just that you admit that their experience is possibly true. From logic alone you have to admit that, in order to be consistent.

i.e. All I've ever experienced is Chicago. I think that means that all that exists is Chicago, but I realize that logically there is no proof that all that exists is Chicago. It is logically possible that New York exists, even if I don't believe it exists.
 

Cherry Cola

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Stop arguing against a goddamn straw man. I said nothing about concensus, and concensus has nothing to do with proof.

Your analogy is yet another example of Russels Teapot, and its the second time you do this same mistake now.

In fact that's what all you've written boils down to:

"You don't know if there are any ghosts because you could be blinded by living in concensus reality!"

Yeah there could pigs and cows on the moon to, how would anyone know? They might be livin in *dramatic pause* Concensus Reality *gasp*
 
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Once again, no one has credibly demonstrated psychic abilities in a manner that could be experimentally tested. Such an event would be huge and it would rattle the entire scientific world. Meanwhile, hustlers that con everyday people get exposed on the regular.

There is no need to get lost in whether or not DNA has radiation, because if there are psychics out there, we can test their psychic ability without needing to know anything about DNA replications.

However, regarding this topic of DNA being reconstructed in a separate water container, I was unable to find any information on this. Until a good source is provided it remains as credible as just_george's previous claim that psychic powers have already been proved within a lab.
 

Hadoblado

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It wouldn't rattle the scientific world immediately. It would actually take a long time with repeated demonstrations. The fact is, there are so many people out there trying to hustle up some pseudoscience that most rational people would demand a higher standard of evidence for these claims.

If I demonstrated what appears to be psychic ability, wouldn't you think you were either being tricked or going mad first? I would. I'd need repeat demonstrations to even consider the possibility I'm not being fooled by some clever scheme. I'd then want to verify my sanity. After that, I'd consider telling other people about it, for fear of being wrong and called naive. I expect respectable journals would go through a similar process.

If supernatural forces are discovered, they won't change popular world perception over night. So long as people are invested in older more supported theories, there will be heavy resistance. Take climate change for example.
 

BigApplePi

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What would you say to moving things with your mind? I've done it and so have others.
 

Variform

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You're taking this "Bullshit Artist" title next to your name rather far. You're being taken advantage of by hustlers. From conspiracy theorists, pseudo-scientists, New Age woo people, anti-vaccines and now straight up psychics.

Why charge you some insignificant fee when they could get a million from the James Randi foundation for simply demonstrating their abilities?

Never mention that name in my presence ever again.

When I was a kid I had tummy pains all the time. Once I spend three weeks in the hospital for observation. They found nothing. In kindergarten I crept on the lap of my teacher in pain. And then was taken home by my mother.

At some point my mom took me to a nearby city to a paranormal healer. My dad was there, I sat in his lap, he was on a chair. This man called dr. Veeman stood behind my father, held his hands above us and said it was my appendix. He never touched us.

When my mom went to the child physician Dr. Pol, he and the nurses that were present laughed at her. This was back in the 70's mind you, when these things were not taken seriously.

But the man would have a look anyway, to humour my mom.

The next day she came visit me and I said 'Look, I have red crosses on me'. These were marks for surgery. My appendix was so enflamed I needed immediate surgery.

So my mom said that Dr. Veeman was right all along. And he didn't laugh anymore.

Dr. Veeman was no quack. Paranormal abilities exist. My family was the first in my country to start a foundation to test paranormal healers and to weed out quacks. This was back in the 1960's and it was revolutionary.

But if you are a reductionist, materialist scientific type, you are unable to take it seriously. That is alright. One day you will learn, then again, you might not, depending on how your self-worth is connected to materialism and scientism.

Many members of my family on my mothers side had paranormal abilities. My grandfather was a medium. My grandmother could see aura's. My mother could heal, as well as her brother and an uncle, who had a verya ctive practice in Amsterdam.

That mean used to come to my city, his hands swollen from doing his work. He wouild have people lined up into the street, because he asked very little for it.

Because he called himself a 'doctor' he was once arrested and appeared in court. All his equipment confiscated. But the judge was one of his patients. So the judge lined up 5 or so people with different ailments and he was asked to tell what they had. And he scored 5 out of 5. And yet, the judge was bound by law to fine him anyway.

Never talk to me about paranormal abilities and whether or not they exist or are real. They are real when you can accept that consciousness, self-awareness and the nature of reality allow for these things to be. But only then. When you are of another mindset, that demands proof, as if proof somehow ontologically dictates the nature of reality, then you cannot discern it. It will just not register.

I find such people ludicrous and sad. My own girlfriend had an inoperable tumor in her breast and the doctors wanted to cut both her breasts of, the panicky bastards.

We said no, we used a combination of special supplements and a diet given to us by an authority in my country, a biologist-homeopath in combination with chemo therapy to fight this cancer. And we won. The docs were amazed and wanted the info on the supplements and diet. The chemo therapy we did with ease. The supplements of which medical scientists claim has little value gave such a boost in energy and vitality that my gf could just go there on bike, while many other people are so sick and tired they crawl around on the floor with nausea.

Alternative medicine and paranormal abilities are part of the human existence. And James Randi is nothing but a fraud, who has a partner who is guilty of identity theft. A hypocrite and single minded bastard and I for one cannot believe anyone would to be associated with his organization.
 

Variform

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Regardless, if they have real psychic abilities, then the James Randi foundation will give them a million dollars for simply demonstrating them. No one has ever, with that foundation or any other, demonstrated any testable supernatural abilities.

That is because the test system is as setup. I have read about it. There are many things wrong with it. One of them e.g. is that you have to comply to the contract, you cannot alter it, you give up the rights to what you can show to his organization and even THEN, James Randi can denounce or dismiss the results without justification. If that is not all, James Randi can prior to ANY testing, deny people to come in for testing. So he can make judgment calls on whether HE thinks someone is legit.

That is a travesty of science. There is no man in the world I hate so much as this fucker. INTP people, who are said to be logical, have no business to be on that side. Because INTP'ers seek truth above all else and this dude is not in it for truth, but to denounce, abusing the normal and healthy practice of skepticism for his own petty egotistical delusions of grandeur. There is even question as to whther or not he even has a million dollar someplace.

Never put me in a room with that man, I'll kill him.
 

Variform

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It is highly improbable that all these psychics exist out there but none of them want a million dollars or to illuminate the world by proving to it that these capacities actually exists.

You cannot prove paranormal abilities using logic because they fall outside the realm of deterministic, reductionist, materialist science.

You cannot measure the immeasurable by using scientific means, neither does it make sense for a religious faith-based model to make meaningful claims on the lofig that 1+1=2.

This strict adherence to the notion that for something to be real, it must be scientifically tested using the scientific model is ludicrous. You don't go to a mathematician when you have a mental illness, not do you go to a psychiatrist if you want to know about coding a game.


Quantum entanglement is not evidence for psychic ability. New Age woo people often like to exaggerate its implications to induce far out ridiculous claims, but these claims are completely unsubstantiated by, and often contradicted by, actual evidence. I've said this to you before.

It matters precious little what you say to anyone. People come to their own conclusions based on the information they gather and how they experience life.

Science has no monopoly over reality. It is merely a model and those who embrace it overly see with only half a mind. Reality is made up of 50% knowable and 50% unknowable.

Reality allows for room for diverging experiences. I have little patience for science as a model nor do I have patience for faith based models. These are merely models, ways to describe reality, not reality itself.

And yet, the quantum world points at connections that are nonsensical. This is the realm of the paranormal and we humans have great difficulty using our human logical brain to understand what is going on there. The suggestion has been made that anyone who says they understand quantum physics, is lying.

This is the matter of the Tonal and the Nagual. The Ying and Yang. If there was only one truth manifest in reality, we would see it in our minds every second. We would not be able to not see it, because it would be so apparently clear that the truth would be something we can behold, right in front of us, a pillar in our mind, no matter where you would look, you would see it.

And yet we do not. We see no absolute dogmatic truth. Why is that? Because there is none. It is all perception.


If someone had proven psychic abilities in a lab, as nicely as you suggest has actually happened, this would've resulted in major ripples and discussion throughout scientific communities, but has never actually happened

Would it?

Then why would a TED talk by Rupert Sheldrake (and one of Graham Hancock) be banned on the advice of a secret committee? There is even an organization that attacks people for busying themselves with certain fields of research. Rupert Sheldrake has shown significant scientific results in ESP phenomena.

And yet, the scientific establishment denies it, questions it, denounces it and downright vehemently attacks people who work in these fields. So would it, really?

These ripples are suppressed. And no, this is no conspiracy theory. It is just the way the scientific world is set up. It is made up of people who already believe they have all the answers but just need to fill in the few blanks we have left open anno 2014. The arrogance!

No, TEDx has shown itself to be on the wrong side of history by actively filtering out people. The whole organization is corrupt, it operates like a sort of sect and a lot of money is involved.
 

Variform

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Then you say all of this to someone at a university and they look at you like you're bonkers - and you just know that when you finally figure it out, they're the first ones who will tell you how obvious it all was, and how they knew it all along.

I concur with your post.

"He said 'Have you ever noticed how as the sphere of understanding grows ever larger, necessarily the surface area of ignorance gets ever bigger?"
-- Dennis McKenna, by word of Terrence McKenna, Tree of Knowledge

The true INTP'er should know better than to be prone to indoctrination of any which model. Models are toys for those children who muddle along unaware of axioms and paradigms. An INTP'er should not get caught in fundamentalist thinking but should remain neutral and open and free and accessible to the truth. Nothing holds a monopoly on truth, not religion, not science not anything in between.

I laugh at that animation someone linked. These people have so much to learn about the nature of reality. It is a travesty to see INTP minds so deeply set on the wrong path while they, of all types, should be using their faculties to beat down these pesky scientist that proclaim their silly model is the only worthy one.
 

Variform

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SpiralH. I will be back with more on this. From where I left off on the topic you are right. No proof. I recall the Rhine Institute at Duke University but forget if they proved anything. I doubt it. Proof of psychic abilities would be a great discovery worth more than a million dollars.

That is what Darwin thought too when he came up with his delusions...see?

The scientific establishment is prone to all the fear, loathing, corruption and nastiness that taints the human condition. Lately in my country one scientist after another, sometimes of great name, have been found guilty of just making up data or doing all sorts of unethical things.
 
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