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Guidelines for People

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Cognisant

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I'm really struggling to name this thread, I'm elaborating on my reply to Serac in the Gillette thread regarding positive guidelines/ideals for men as something for men to rally behind as opposed (but not in opposition to) condemning bad behaviour, so I could call this "Guidelines for Guys" but part of what I'm trying to achieve here is that these guidelines are not gender specific because although I think men and women are different I don't think we're so different that we require different standards.

Three Date Process (if you've already read this in the Gillette thread just skip to the next heading)
Asking someone out on a date is a formal request to engage in the process of courtship, it is of paramount important that all parties are familiar with the Three Date Process and that the date is specifically "a date" and stated as such. The point of this is to eliminate ambiguity and thus the anxiety that comes with uncertainty, of course there will still be uncertainty as to whether the recipient of the request will say yes, the possibility of rejection is unavoidable. However this framework allows both the requester and the requestee to save face, a rejection of the offer doesn't necessarily mean the requestee doesn't appreciate the offer, they may simply not be ready to engage in formal courtship at this time.

There's the option of making a standing offer, not requesting an immediate answer but rather making an offer that can be accepted or refused at a later time if indeed at all. However this isn't a course of action I recommend, although it potentially mitigates the possibility of rejection it replaces it with what is in my opinion the altogether worse circumstance of waiting on an answer and not knowing whether you've been rejected or not.

A particular advantage of this framework is that it allows you to ask out someone who you might not be antiquated with, in this case the implied intention being "I don't know you very well but I'd like to" so although it's a bit more forward than asking out someone you know it's not rude either. Implicitly you're playing the odds, making clear your intention to seek a relationship and looking for someone with the same goal in mind, and as I said before rejection isn't necessarily final so the requestee need not feel troubled about refusing such offers, nor the requester be embarrassed about being refused.

The first and second dates are an opportunity to get to know each other better under the understanding that there will be no progression beyond this point until the third date and only if both parties agree to the third date and even then nothing's set in stone, although if someone agrees to the third date and they aren't ready to take things further they're setting themselves up for embarrassment and should have had plenty of time to see it coming.

Physical Contact and Body Language
To eliminate ambiguity the should be body language for initiating, accepting or refusing physical contact, for example if you want to hug someone raise your arms at your sides by about twenty degrees and have your palms facing towards them so as to be transitioning to but not yet in the "I'm going to hug you pose". If the recipient of the hug wants to accept they match your posture, if they want to refuse they put their hands in front of them palms down, this whole exchange can be very quick and subtle so nobody's losing face. The whole point of this is that the person initiating the hug is communicating their intentions and asking permission before acting and by asking before acting they're allowing the other person to refuse the hug without it being embarrassing for anyone.

I might write more later, right now I'm tired and curious to see what sort of reception my thoughts are getting.
 
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also remove adjectives and have people use only the words "good" and "ungood"

if something is exceedingly good or bad, they can say "doubleplusgood" or "doubleplusungood"
 

Serac

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when it comes to physical contact (and would say all aspects of sexual/romantic relationships), there are already cues, naturally emanating from the counterparty, as to how to proceed in various circumstances. There are loads of them, but you can sense e.g. whether the person gets uncomfortable whenever you get close. These cues inform you whether you can escalate things to hugging or whatever.

My opinion would be that men should learn how to behave around women and develop social skills, as opposed to society enforcing a rule book for courtship.
 

Cognisant

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Social skills, the ability to read social cues and act/respond accordingly, how is that not exactly the same except far more complicated and irrational?

Instead of operating on impressions and strained intuition why not just be rational and approach things methodically?
 

Animekitty

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Girl Has Bad Date In VRCHAT

 

Cognisant

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Do you have a point to make or are you just going to be vaguely condescending?

Might it be that you don't have a point to make, that you're just full of shit, or maybe you do but you won't say it because on some level even you know how stupid it is.
 

Adaire

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People chafing under strict gender roles and sexual expectations and Cog wants to make more enforced rules? This regimentation frankly sounds hardly half a step up from state-mandated girlfriends.

I don't mean this as an insult, but I think you should consider the possibility that you are Autistic. Get checked out properly. It might help you understand yourself and your differences with the world around you. You're grasping for clarity, but the way you go about it is bizarrely literal to onlookers and they will reject your approaches.
 

Serac

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Social skills, the ability to read social cues and act/respond accordingly, how is that not exactly the same except far more complicated and irrational?

Instead of operating on impressions and strained intuition why not just be rational and approach things methodically?
I mean, I know what you're getting at. It seems there used to be clearer expectations and stricter norms when it came to dating, which presumably made things easier. Trust me, I would agree if I could – I live in the worst cultural-relativist cesspool on earth, namely Sweden. If some asshole is yapping loudly in his phone on the subway and annoying the shit out of everyone, no one is going to say anything, because hey – who's to say he's wrong? Maybe in his culture, it's perfectly acceptable to talk loudly on the phone. Have you considered that? Huh? Huh? So yeah... anyway, in this case, I don't think the measures would benefit people except for a very small minority. Therefore it seems unnecessary to try to force a natural thing into a neat, cubic box just to make it conform to a specific abstraction of human relationships.
 

Pizzabeak

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So this is just to allow that post to reach a wider audience in case they didn't catch it when originally posted? There is no real standard, no matter what's written, there'll always be, not naysayers per se, but the dark, untold side of things still being registered. It's more so being in the right place at the right time. By the very nature of the game, any standard would work better for some than others. You have to leave some room in for wildcard. Really, it's mostly just telling people what they want to hear. What works for yourself, doesn't always work for others, as you aren't catering towards their own specific needs and are just applying your experience onto other people. MBTI was designed to allow women to feel more comfortable in the workplace circa WWII, so it reduces how much someone can get annoyed. There’s no practical use in having such a guide, for anyone.
If the person you're dating is rude to waiters or those in differing positions than they, that's usually a red flag of abuse being eminent further down the course of the relationship.
 

lightfire

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There is no standard or set guidelines for dating and relationships. Its confusing but it depends on the people involved and their culture and backgrounds.
 
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this idea is doubleplusgood and those who duckspeak against it are guilty of crimethink.

failure to adhere to these ideals demonstrates a doubleplusungood association with ownlife.
 

Pizzabeak

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Figure out what's a mean and what's an end to you.
 
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wats a goon to a goblin
 

Cognisant

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I don't mean this as an insult, but I think you should consider the possibility that you are Autistic. Get checked out properly. It might help you understand yourself and your differences with the world around you. You're grasping for clarity, but the way you go about it is bizarrely literal to onlookers and they will reject your approaches.
I’ll happily admit that I’m high on the autism spectrum but I’m still going to call you out on gas-lighting me because what’s occurring here is a communication problem and for reasons I’m about to give I don’t think the problem is on my end.

People chafing under strict gender roles and sexual expectations and Cog wants to make more enforced rules? This regimentation frankly sounds hardly half a step up from state-mandated girlfriends.
Gender roles: The second half of my first paragraph clearly states that these guidelines are not gender specific and I was very careful to use gender neutral phrasing, how anyone could think I’m doing anything but undermining gender roles baffles me.

Sexual expectations: That is exactly the problem my framework is trying to solve, it’s simply unrealistic to expect people to never have any expectations ever, indeed those expectations may not necessarily be having sex, they could be sexual exclusivity/abstinence or even not be related to sex at all such, expectations one might of a partner as opposed to someone they’re merely dating (e.g. obligated to spend time with the other's family).

But regarding sexual expectations how is it a bad idea for there to be a tactful unambiguous way for people to communicate their intentions? I’m not saying every time two people go out together it counts towards the three dates and that on the third outing one of them can expect to get laid, that’s absurd. A date must be “a date” so everybody’s clear what the endgame is (commitment to a relationship in whatever form that takes, which I assume you would discuss with your partner to be) in no way is anyone being forced into anything, why else would I keep mentioning saving face if not to ensure backing out of any commitment is as easy as possible?

Regimentation: I’m not advocating Shira law, for the sake of practicality it would be best if everyone understood these frameworks but that doesn’t mean they have to be enforced, indeed even if they were enforced how does a gender neutral framework designed to facilitate the clear communication of intentions while providing face-saving opportunities to back out of commitment cause harm to anyone?

Adaire said:
hardly half a step up from state-mandated girlfriends.
That's not a point, that's an attack.

I mean, I know what you're getting at. It seems there used to be clearer expectations and stricter norms when it came to dating, which presumably made things easier.
Exactly and I'm not talking about regressing society to the 19-fucking-50's nobody wants that, well nobody sane anyway.

I live in the worst cultural-relativist cesspool on earth, namely Sweden. If some asshole is yapping loudly in his phone on the subway and annoying the shit out of everyone, no one is going to say anything, because hey – who's to say he's wrong? Maybe in his culture, it's perfectly acceptable to talk loudly on the phone. Have you considered that? Huh? Huh?
It's a clear lack of expectations, in Japan when you hop on a train it's almost dead silent, people stick to the left side on footpaths and stand on the left side of escalators to let people walk up the right, it's a very civil and harmonious society. There's nobody enforcing these rules, unless a little old lady decides you're due a lecturing in which case you almost certainly deserve it, likewise the frameworks I'm advocating aren't rules they're a guide to make life easier.

So yeah... anyway, in this case, I don't think the measures would benefit people except for a very small minority.
What makes you think that?

Therefore it seems unnecessary to try to force a natural thing into a neat, cubic box just to make it conform to a specific abstraction of human relationships.
If you have to force people then obviously it's not beneficial, you shouldn't have to force people, if the framework is a good idea and you can convince people it's a good idea then the change should happen naturally.

Pizzabeak I think I've covered the points you made with the above (there's nothing wrong with your post I'm just too lazy to respond).
 

Cognisant

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@redbaron
I won't tell you to go fuck yourself but you really need to go jerk off or something, y'know lighten the load a bit.
 
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That's not a point, that's an attack.
not an attack if it's true, or maybe it's just a true attack

either way, it's a valid point in the same way as saying the catholic church are paedophile enablers. it's an attack to most people, but that doesn't make it any less true or pertinent to say
 
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@redbaron
I won't tell you to go fuck yourself but you really need to go jerk off or something, y'know lighten the load a bit.
okay but it won't make your idea any less ridiculous
 

Adaire

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Hey man, just trying to help you out.

There's probably a reason why all this is so mystifying to you. Getting to the core of your inability to understand other people will probably more useful than demanding that the world conform to your controlling weird ass standards.
 

Hadoblado

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I think that you're solving a problem specific to your experienced social difficulties, and this is a limitation because it's not generalisable/relatable to neurotypicals or the diversity of the wants/needs/preferences of the larger population.

Personally I never want a third party telling me what my dates mean, or pressuring the second party to interpret them in an artificial way. If it's unclear where we're at, I'll ask. If it's still unclear, I'm probably not interested anyway.
 

Polaris

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Ugh, I have never got hang of the dating thing. I scare the crap out of guys. I either make social blunders such as giving out way too much information, get carried away with too nerdy topics, become too preoccupied with the food on my plate, or get too drunk. I could play a role, but find it more and more exhausting as I'm getting older. If most people are put off, I'm ok with it, because I'd rather have that than me having to do this silly neurotypical dance forever, in order to please someone I don't even have anything in common with. I have given up on dating a long time ago. I hate it so much, I'd rather stay single. Besides, who's gonna want a woman past her use by date? I know I'm not in that 'desirable' category anymore. It's just too icky, all that romance stuff.

There needs to be a dating site for especially awkward people, but even then, I'd find it too awkward.
 

Cognisant

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(not directed at Polaris)

I don't have a problem you fucks, for fucksake, women bitch about men, men bitch about women, we live in time where "gender politics" is a thing, the world has fucking problems and I thought hey why don't I get all philosophical and try to solve some of those problems y'know maybe make a thread about it, give people something constructive to talk about, but nooooo it's all got to be about me.

FUCK. OFF. YOU. CUNTS.

I am nearly fucking thirty years old, I have been in relationships with multiple women, I'm currently single after breaking it off with the last chick because I got sick of her immaturity and decided I'd rather focus my job, my mortgage and my project, I'm not some fucking spastic who can't talk to women.

I'm not so mad as I am disappointed, I keep making thread to try and keep this place alive, I like being here because even at your worst you're people whose opinions I respect except I'm not sure if I still do.

Personally I never want a third party telling me what my dates mean, or pressuring the second party to interpret them in an artificial way. If it's unclear where we're at, I'll ask. If it's still unclear, I'm probably not interested anyway.
This a good point, this is debating with someone, fucking shame you joined the bandwagon in your first paragraph.
 
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*turns to face cog, arms bent at approximately 20 degree angle with palms facing towards him*
 

Hadoblado

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Err... I get that you feel attacked, and some of the things said have been attacks or bad reading comprehension imo, but I don't think there's a cohesive bandwagon, and if there were I wouldn't change my view in service to remaining independent from it. Srsly I think the person I agree most with thus far is Serac and if you think we have a habit of bandwagoning I don't know what to tell you man.

You said you're on the spectrum, and you're ikidyounot trying to make a framework that will make people more predictable for you - so I don't think I'm out of line when I suggest you're addressing a problem that is more specific to you. But your solution is to have everyone else in the world change the way they behave regardless of the diversity of their needs - instead of finding something that works for you.
 

Adaire

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@Cognisant I get that mortgages tend to make people cranky, but this forum hasn't been all that active in a really really long time. Now you're trying to save it? In an oddly similar vein to previous themes, you simply can't revitalize it with demands. Glad to hear you've found and discarded yet another tissue paper woman though. What? She just turn 25?

@Polaris
Honey, you still got a lot living left to do. The world's a big place, there's lot of fun things to do and learn. Maybe it's cliche, but why fixate on the things you don't have and can't do right this moment, when there's still just so much possibility right at your fingertips? Enough for a lifetime or 10. If the general age obsession common to men gets to you, maybe try women, unless you're super straight? I went to this super gay burlesque show in Oregon last week, and damn the women (and dudes too) were just great. There was this lady who could hula hoop with her toes and she was just the bubbliest cutest thing offstage. There was this other lady who was 65, but you'd never be able to tell from the state of her abs. There was an older gentleman with just the sickest swing moves I've ever seen in person. Anyway, the point is that there's all sort of cool and crazy stuff out there. Your life is never over unless you decide it is. The people who want you to believe you're expired are either trying to sell you shit or sell you on their own miserable loveless worldview in an attempt to console themselves.
 

Serac

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I personally prefer older women. Women in their 20s have no personality.
 

lightfire

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Do whatever comes naturally to you, honestly that's the best way.
 

Rook

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Cog's suggestions are quite pragmatic.
When one sees it in light not of dogma or communalism, but rather as a comparison of system, with cog's suggestion having perhaps a higher turnover rate in terms of people matched longterm, or people happily matched.

There are many types of courtship: Sex not always the goal. Courtships for marriage; courtships for co-habitation etc. Cog suggested another path. In a way this makes sense to me: People are braver. Spill their guts on the table for all to see. You say who you are.

And this might be way cog said he does not want to bring gender considerations into this.

I see in this plan a world where more people are proud of who they are, they see their own good in themselves. Becuase who they are is so more visible, it will be easier for all to find mates and create shared households, which are economically viable atm. halved rent.
Planning. labour sharing. So living with a mate/s saves you money, ceterus paribus. And it can be.... fun.

Attack each other on gender politics, but at least know this: Cog came in earnest to showcase a way in which he believes a society can find greater joy. He did not say enforce it on all, rather an idea that some may agree upon mutually and so follow the parameteres.

A meme, it will grow or die. Like facebook, which I do not use... a gathering of humanity under a system self-chosen, mutually enjoyed. Becuase people enjoy facebook. Thats why nothing can touch it.


I would enjoy people rationalizing the debate, even if snarling at each other like rabid badgers.

A well constructed rebuttal
 

Animekitty

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How does one get a date?
I have never been on a date before. :auburn:
 

Minuend

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Some of the problem is this is an approach applied to a system that does not work like the creator of the approach imagine.

Understanding people, and how people work is a system different to the typical mechanical approach one might have to other topics. How human function is according to a form of logic, but not the type of logic applied here. Which is why it would fail, and which is why the majority of people aware of this would reject it. Human functioning is its own separate type of logic. In that regard, the feedback here is much more kind than would be in many other environments.

(
I am nearly fucking thirty years old, I have been in relationships with multiple women, I'm currently single after breaking it off with the last chick because I got sick of her immaturity and decided I'd rather focus my job, my mortgage and my project, I'm not some fucking spastic who can't talk to women.
Eh, you don't need to be a social retard to have autism, but it does usually come in form of trying to categorize and approach humans mechanically, where neurotypicals would use intuition and feely sensors. You can be ok or decent at social interactions as an autist, but you need to apply a more conscious effort to understand people and react appropriately. Neurotypicals have these behaviors more automatically.

So the difference can be noticed in form of how the approach is, not always how good it is. You can be good at social and it's based on complex mechanical/ planned solutions, or you can be bad at social it being based on your poor intuition and poor social skills.

So yes, you can have had plenty of gfs and sexy time and still be autistic. The more intelligent, the more able to compensate usually.

Besides, who's gonna want a woman past her use by date? I know I'm not in that 'desirable' category anymore.
Sure, missus. It's been like 5-7 years since you were in norway (has it been that long) and you got asked for id when buying booze, so yeah, sure :p

Considering how many people have shit diets and don't exercise in their 20s, I think the expiration date meme is greatly exaggerated.

That being said, finding a compatible man is something else of a topic...
 

Rook

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There are a great many cultures that have an even greater variety of rituals related to courtship. Cog merely suggested another such paradigm. I don't know what all the hooplah is about: His proposal seemed innocent and approached from a scientific viewpoint.

Just becuase one looks at humans through a rational lense does not mean that one is emotionless and not fond of human company. There is a trend of hyper-emotional science in the 21st century. Almost like a fuax singularity: Homo Sapiens worshipping the machine system.

Science demands a clear head. Analyzing society with true empathy requires objectivity and a clear mind. Once sides are picked.... you lose a chunk of empathy. You create an enemy in your mind. There is great joy in looking at things from different perspectives. In war, there is only one rational perspective.

In this age, is the human soul at war with itself?
 

Minuend

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I don't think anyone implied cog is emotionless and not fond of human company. The only thing being argued here is the perspective and method of understanding and interacting with people.

But yes, the human soul is at war with itself, not because it refuses to be logical, but because it refuses to be "emotional". Analyzing society does not need a detachment from the feelings, from the emotional, on the contrary we need it badly to understand one of the vital things making us human. Detaching and hissing at it makes us only more detached and more stupid.

I know there's this thing where people think everyone is offended and emotional, but one of the larger issues of the modern man is we're not in touch with our feelings. Actually, if you are easily offended it means you are not well in touch with your feelings. But humanity have the whole thing turned upside down, where detachment and distance is encouraged, because it's believed it will solve the problem of offendedness, religion and whatever else emotional problem you have in a society.

It's believed to solve the problem of feeling, but in actuality we need to understand, get in touch and live them to solve them
 

Rook

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I agree... thats why I endorse being emotionally detached from petty political squabbles, becuase that actually leads you to be more in touch with your own emotions. You see for yourself, think and feel for yourself. And others. I'm not saying be less emotional, I say be emotional over things that truly matter to you. And always try to maintain a constructive, positive mood. The betterment of human emotions..
 

Cognisant

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Having established I'm not going to get banned for this.
@Adaire lets talk about your fear of monogamous relationships.

You need me to be crazy, not totally clinically insane, just enough to discredit me because if I was credible then you might have to acknowledge and deal with your own shit.

People chafing under strict gender roles and sexual expectations and Cog wants to make more enforced rules? This regimentation frankly sounds hardly half a step up from state-mandated girlfriends.

I don't mean this as an insult, but I think you should consider the possibility that you are Autistic. Get checked out properly. It might help you understand yourself and your differences with the world around you. You're grasping for clarity, but the way you go about it is bizarrely literal to onlookers and they will reject your approaches.
Dumping people in the open ocean is half a step step up from executing them, you're not killing them but their chances of survival are so low you may as well be. Likewise half a step up from state-mandated girlfriends would be a social credit system whereby women have to find men with good credit scores before their own score starts going down for being single too long, it's not forcing them, but it may as well be.

While I'm here @redbaron I know you're smart enough to see the blatantly obvious, that this was a baseless attack, now maybe you took her side due to me calling you out on shit-posting and all but telling you to go fuck yourself, it wouldn't be the first time I upset someone, or maybe you were doing a bit of white knighting, just speculating.

So Adaire's full of shit but why is she full of shit, I believe it's because she feels threatened by my framework, not because it enforces gender roles (it doesn't), or forces people into unwanted relationships (again it doesn't) no what she means by "regimentation" is that the framework only caters to monogamy. Imagine a society comprised entirely of "autistic" people like me who all think this framework is a great idea, such a society precludes one night stands and open relationships, you're either seeking a serious relationship or no one will take you seriously.

To Adaire my "controlling weird ass standards" are terrifying and must be prevented and I speculate that she see things this way because she has a schizoid personality disorder, that she gaslit me in this thread to avoid dealing with her own issues with emotional intimacy.

@Cognisant I get that mortgages tend to make people cranky, but this forum hasn't been all that active in a really really long time. Now you're trying to save it? In an oddly similar vein to previous themes, you simply can't revitalize it with demands. Glad to hear you've found and discarded yet another tissue paper woman though. What? She just turn 25?
Or maybe the archetypical angry shortstack was just feeling bitter.
The last woman I dated was two years younger than me *gasp* how scandalous.

How are you going Adaire, still third wheeling from one meaningless fling to the next?
 

Adaire

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All I really feel right now is boredom reading this. bye o/

Though I do have to say, better meaningful flings than meaningless relationships.
 

Cognisant

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Lol we've done this before and no doubt in a few years we'll do it again.

Till next time.
 

Serac

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Cog, you gotta recognize the strategy of forum users like Adaire and redbaron. They will rarely give coherent arguments on anything, or justify any opinion they hold, or even clearly state any opinion at all. Whenever they disagree with you, they usually engage the interaction with some sarcastic remark designed to make it look like it is obvious you are wrong, or that you're not even worthy of discourse. That alleviates them of the obligation to come up with a counterargument, right off the bat. Then they usually proceed with some attack on your character designed to discredit all your future and past arguments, e.g. by doing some psychoanalysis of you, or do some diagnosis of you, or theorize on the ostensible motives behind your statements.

It's obviously annoying as fuck, but I don't think they do it consciously. It's just a habit they have developed. I usually just try to filter through all the shit and find some potentially interesting points they make, and then try to respond to those.
 
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when i said its not bannable i did say as long as it doesn't "escalate to a certain point"

bringing up that you are admittedly not neurotypical and that the way you view things and process the world is likely something that makes what you're saying here not something with universality, albeit in a snarky way, is...nothing like that spiteful post i just read. that's not a snarky response to a topic, it's calculated malice

Serac, the fact you feel the need to namedrop me in conversations unrelated to me to single out your problems with me is a bit weird, and this isn't the first time either. there've been users who do this (to other people) in the past, who were banned for it (and no, not by me, by other mods with no input on my end). time to stop
 
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