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GOD INFJs DRIVE ME FUCKING NUTS

s0nystyle

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#1
they cannot be reasoned with and try to guilt trip you then cry. man fuck them if i didnt have to live with one i wish they would all just die.

/rant
 
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#3
You probably don't live with an INFJ then.
 

s0nystyle

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#4
ex-girlfriend INFJ
mom INFJ

neither understand the meaning of "logical reasoning"
 

s0nystyle

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#6
i couldn't stand my ex for more than 1 month so i broke up with her and my mum... well i've been "patient" with her for 20 years, what more can you ask *SIGH*
 

TheHmmmm

Welcome to Costco, I love you
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#7
It always surprises me how consistently INTP's seem entranced with INFJ's. I personally can't see anything remarkable with them. NT's are so much more interesting and less "poetic" I guess. I did visit the INFJ forum and found many of their responses to stuff generic and slightly repulsive.
 
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#8
I have had several good experiences with INFJs. I have also had a very bad long term experience with an INFJ who was a friend. It did not end well. I think that had I known at the time that she was an INFJ I could have better understood her philosophical standpoint. It was a case of speaking the same language but utterly misunderstanding each other. I wish I could go back with the knowledge and wisdom I have now and see if perhaps that would change the outcome of our relationship. :slashnew:
 
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#10
My absolute best friend in the world (who I've lived with for a year now) is an INFJ. He's a completely crazy, neurotic wreck who no one understands. I've always found our friendship odd and endlessly entertaining. He's a crazed storm of ideas and emotion while I sit as the calm center of it all. I've just always found that despite our extreme differences, that we are incredibly complementary individuals.
 
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#11
ex-girlfriend INFJ
mom INFJ

neither understand the meaning of "logical reasoning"
Right, because two people is a fair sample size.


I'd bet the INFJs you've met that do understand the meaning of "logical reasoning", you are probably mistyping for Ts.
 

s0nystyle

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#12
Right, because two people is a fair sample size.


I'd bet the INFJs you've met that do understand the meaning of "logical reasoning", you are probably mistyping for Ts.
WTF ARE U A PSYCHIC? *hides behind sofa*:kilroy:
 

Reluctantly

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#15
Thing is, INFJs are really pretty similar to INTPs. Chances are best that if you are having such problems with them, your typing method isn't very accurate. It's hard to explain, but MBTI kind of messes up in differentiating INFJs and INFPs. A lot of the information crosses over with each other and then the theorists rely on extremely basic principles of behavior, that unfortunately doesn't suggest anything to differentiate different types of people, like
'do you like to organize your clothes?'
'is your desk organized or chaotic and disorganized?'
'do you like routine?'
'do dolphins make you cry?'
'would you rather read a book or have an orgy at a rave?'

lol...I know I'm exaggerating a bit.

I forgot what I was getting at. Oh, I think my point was that it doesn't come down to how decisive you are and how organized someone likes to be or is, at least not in this case; although I'm not suggesting that's the primary criteria you look for, but I want to clear up the problems with typing these two types. Anyway chances are this transcends type or they are dealing with some issues that can manifest negatively outwardly in any type. People put too much stock on plain emotions in judging a person's behavior as irrational or indicative of type.

There are INTPs that have dealt with difficult situations and guilt tripped a little themselves in their own ways...trust me, it's not so simple. I suppose it would be nice if it was, but it would also be a little boring. It makes figuring out something you've put many years into understanding all the more satisfying when you finally create a system at least 90% (if not 100%) of the time correct in dealing with a problem no one seemingly has been able to do yet, leaving aside the fact and discussion that it can be argued that in psychology nothing can really 'be certain' since that really doesn't seem to help anyone in doing such a thing.
 
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#16
Here are some unstudied thoughts that go through my head about INTP's and INFJ's.

If the "FJ" means they go with feelings and judgments, that can clash with someone who goes with thinking and impartiality. Whether or not there is a clash would depend on how strict each is with excluding the other. Seems to me there is nothing wrong with feeling strongly about something. That could be bad OR good. It would give an INTP something to play with if they don't take it personally. If the INFJ is very aggressive that is a different matter.

I'd have to hear a specific example to make a judgment on this.
 

Words

Only 1 1-F.
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#17
^
The most obvious difference I've experienced from the two(towards stranger(me)) is:

INFJ is :D and INTP is :)

In short, Aux Fe vs. Inf Fe.



I'm short on data. I've personally seen 3 :| INTP's, possibly 5 or 6 :) INTPs(in the internet), 1 personal :D possible INTP, and 3 personal "nerd/smart/gullible/young" :D INFJ's. (2 males, I female.)

I have not seen a :| INFJ.

:|/:D/:) = "usual facial expression".

What's interesting is that I see an outward usual behavioral pattern in INFJ's. All 3 of those I've met we're "book-obssesed, glass-wearing, innocent-looking, smiling and "twitching" dictionaries". And none of which meets the "norm-requirement".

The INTP's, on the other hand, are more "chameleon-able". Interesting that they(INFJ) have Aux Fe and should be able to emotionally "adapt" well to their environment, I don't see it in my experiences however. They stay different from the norms.
 

Enne

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#18
I have had several good experiences with INFJs. I have also had a very bad long term experience with an INFJ who was a friend. It did not end well. I think that had I known at the time that she was an INFJ I could have better understood her philosophical standpoint. It was a case of speaking the same language but utterly misunderstanding each other. I wish I could go back with the knowledge and wisdom I have now and see if perhaps that would change the outcome of our relationship. :slashnew:
What was her philosophical standpoint? What were the usual areas of your disagreements?
 

Reverse Transcriptase

"you're a poet whether you like it or not"
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#20
I LOVE THIS THREAD
It always surprises me how consistently INTP's seem entranced with INFJ's. I personally can't see anything remarkable with them. NT's are so much more interesting and less "poetic" I guess. I did visit the INFJ forum and found many of their responses to stuff generic and slightly repulsive.
That's not what this thread is about. I feel like entranced != driving me fucking nuts.

I'd bet the INFJs you've met that do understand the meaning of "logical reasoning", you are probably mistyping for Ts.
My mom is a retired physician. She went through medical school, diagnosed countless people, etc. She has logical reasoning.

But she chooses not to use it! She loves to jump onto the emotion train and tries to win arguments through any guilty-feeling possible.

s0nystyle: You need to embark in an emotional guerrilla war against your mother. Don't just try to escape her. Whenever she annoys you, TELL HER, in the most brutal and objective standpoint. ".... were you going to finish that sentence, or just trail off?" ""Yes Mother, I already thought of that." "It's insulting to me when you remind me to do something for the third time." "When you try to talk to me in the mornings it ruins the rest of my day, so please don't talk to me this morning. I have an important interview today."

These are going to start more fights. This is okay. If your mom is willing to fight with emotionally packed statements, why should YOU be disallowed from fighting with emotionally packed statements?

Eventually she'll simmer down and stop trying to pull stupid shit. You can side-step all of the arguments she's going to throw at you.

It worked for me. Best of luck.
 

s0nystyle

La la la la la!
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#21
ty for the advice, ill put it to the test :X
 

Enne

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#22
I LOVE THIS THREAD

That's not what this thread is about. I feel like entranced != driving me fucking nuts.


My mom is a retired physician. She went through medical school, diagnosed countless people, etc. She has logical reasoning.

But she chooses not to use it! She loves to jump onto the emotion train and tries to win arguments through any guilty-feeling possible.

s0nystyle: You need to embark in an emotional guerrilla war against your mother. Don't just try to escape her. Whenever she annoys you, TELL HER, in the most brutal and objective standpoint. ".... were you going to finish that sentence, or just trail off?" ""Yes Mother, I already thought of that." "It's insulting to me when you remind me to do something for the third time." "When you try to talk to me in the mornings it ruins the rest of my day, so please don't talk to me this morning. I have an important interview today."

These are going to start more fights. This is okay. If your mom is willing to fight with emotionally packed statements, why should YOU be disallowed from fighting with emotionally packed statements?

Eventually she'll simmer down and stop trying to pull stupid shit. You can side-step all of the arguments she's going to throw at you.

It worked for me. Best of luck.
^Worked for me as well. :D
 
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#24
An INTP who is driven nuts by an INFJ is an INTP who has tripped over a logical INFJ step and is having trouble getting up again.
 
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#25
It doesn't have to be an INFJ. ISFJs have the same effect. It's doubly bad when Fe is dominant. This effect is actually worse in SFJs in my opinion because they are even less likely to stay focused on the whole conversation.

When people argue from Fe standpoint is is most difficult to communicate properly because they're not listening to what you mean they're deliberately redirecting all of the energy into trying to express themselves.

The wind blows this way the wind blows that way. <><<<><>>><>
 
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#26
When people argue from Fe standpoint is is most difficult to communicate properly because they're not listening to what you mean they're deliberately redirecting all of the energy into trying to express themselves.
Suppose that's right and they are not listening to what you mean. What about listening to what THEY mean?
 

paradoxparadigm7

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#28
When people argue from Fe standpoint is is most difficult to communicate properly because they're not listening to what you mean they're deliberately redirecting all of the energy into trying to express themselves.

The wind blows this way the wind blows that way. <><<<><>>><>
But take it further...the Fe expression has a purpose. To have an empathic impact on the person directed at and to sway/influence. (Te does it as well only via the route of appealing to reason.) For INFJ, it's perfectly reasonable to expect a loved one to take your feelings into consideration when it come to a behavior. For INFJ, we can't understand NOT taking a loved one's feelings/values into consideration. Where it crosses the line is when INFJ resorts to 'below the belt' tactics to attain the behavior desired. But this can be said of ANY type who allows themselves to get consumed by their own wants/values/desires thereby invalidating the wants/values/desires of another. The tactics may differ in it's expression but is not confined to type per se.

If I want to overcome this unhealthy tendency I have to acknowledge when I have the impulse to get what I want at all costs, get a grip/control of myself and realize that the importance of my own wants and desires lose their meaning if I restrict my loved one's freedom.
 

TBerg

fallen angel who hasn't earned his wings
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#30
Most people are adequate Fe manifestations. If we want to actually understand the reality of other people, sometimes from a Ti impulse, then we must confront that aspect of our collective psyche. We might begin to understand why we must sometimes suppress our compassionate empathy to get through the day. We might begin not to be too hard on other people for their greater interest in social morale relative to our greater interest in convergent truth. The fact is that all of the functions impact all of our lives negatively and positively, and our denial of the full humanity, both good and bad, in all of us puts us all at disadvantages. Yes, we must sometimes go into our psychic palaces of Dominant function, if only to recharge and not have to struggle with our weaknesses. But we must go out also to the village to find our inner pauper as well. We don't want to lose grip with the functions over whom we are supposed to rule.
 

TBerg

fallen angel who hasn't earned his wings
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#31
I LOVE THIS THREAD

That's not what this thread is about. I feel like entranced != driving me fucking nuts.


My mom is a retired physician. She went through medical school, diagnosed countless people, etc. She has logical reasoning.

But she chooses not to use it! She loves to jump onto the emotion train and tries to win arguments through any guilty-feeling possible.

s0nystyle: You need to embark in an emotional guerrilla war against your mother. Don't just try to escape her. Whenever she annoys you, TELL HER, in the most brutal and objective standpoint. ".... were you going to finish that sentence, or just trail off?" ""Yes Mother, I already thought of that." "It's insulting to me when you remind me to do something for the third time." "When you try to talk to me in the mornings it ruins the rest of my day, so please don't talk to me this morning. I have an important interview today."

These are going to start more fights. This is okay. If your mom is willing to fight with emotionally packed statements, why should YOU be disallowed from fighting with emotionally packed statements?

Eventually she'll simmer down and stop trying to pull stupid shit. You can side-step all of the arguments she's going to throw at you.

It worked for me. Best of luck.
Yeah, this is also what I do when someone directs a whole trainload of emotional garbage my way. Sometimes I am surprised with how well it can actually at least give you time to get out of the way.
 
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#32
That's taking the high road and a very difficult thing to do at that!:)
The thing is I already know where I'm at. Unless I'm interested in your reaction to me, why would I bother talking about me? On the other hand other people are interesting, especially if they have values I don't have. That creates a (thinking) challenge to learn where they are at.

There are people here who have put out teasers at to where they are at. But take one moment to inquire and they don't want to expose themselves.
 
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#33
The OP seems a bit over agitated to be an INTP. My view is that INTPs usually mill over a problem until they find a way they can solve it. This (the problem solving aspect) is typically not done by complaining about the subject. I know I personally try to stay emotionally detached at least until I have figured out a solution. Furthermore, why are people talking about such a rash way of problem solving for a case that happened over 8 months ago? This being the case, BAP has still dealt with the situation quite well and remained detached; not to say others have not contributed validly.

I say all these things because it is my way of solving the problem of users reopening threads that are not valid to the recent history of what has been going on elsewhere in the forum and what topics should be talked about.
 
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#34
This is the most successful 3+ year old necro I've ever seen. :D
 

The Introvert

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#35
I, too, think that Words had a very nice post.

There are many reasons the INFJ/INTP relationship can be so wonderful - or so frustrating. INTP teaches Ti with Ne; INFJ thirsts for Ti, understands through Ni, and the whole Ni-Ne connection is, IMO, the strongest connection that Two people can Have between them (maybe Fe-Fi, although Fi is much harder to crack I think).

The problems usually arise when Fe is misunderstood by both parties. INFJs can overuse their Fe purely ( I mean in compliments or insults) to the Poor INTP which obviously could cause problems. I generally find INTPs to be at fault for that one. Also, if Fe is coupled with Ni in an INFJ appealing with feeling to INTP's reason, then problems can arise as well (INFJ's fault). Emotional appeals (intentional or Not) to logic really should be avoided at all costs. And that's coming from an INFJ.
 
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#36
they cannot be reasoned with and try to guilt trip you then cry. man fuck them if i didnt have to live with one i wish they would all just die.
I believe they CAN be reasoned with provided one recognizes what they are after in the proper manner. I encountered one on this board (old timers know who that is) and was prepared to explain what was going on in a recent "Explain" thread. But before I could get an explanation out the thread was closed.

I had gotten along fine for a good time with this INFJ because I sensed what he was after, but I decided at one point there were more people than just this person involved so I said or did something unfavorable about him in his view. I tried to talk about the situation but he didn't like such talk and asked me to stop speaking about him. Since his motive was that of an INFJ (emotional* with emotional reasons) all I had to do was reverse the outlook from unfavorable to favorable and I'm sure his view toward me would reverse. However people on this Forum with strong views of their own wouldn't let me explore this**. Looking back and even looking forward one can say I wasn't going about this in the right way. But that would be my whole point. I don't know the right way. That's what INTP's do. They look for the right way and the right answers.

This shows what can happen if an INFJ pushes hard enough even on an INTP Forum. <-- this paragraph is my opinion so anyone may question it or outright disagree.

*By "emotional" I mean he wanted to express certain values.
**The claim was I was rehashing old stuff, my motives and character were questionable and I was going against his wishes. There are other reasons but I won't go into them.
 

Duxwing

I've Overcome Existential Despair
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#37
I, too, think that Words had a very nice post.

There are many reasons the INFJ/INTP relationship can be so wonderful - or so frustrating. INTP teaches Ti with Ne; INFJ thirsts for Ti, understands through Ni, and the whole Ni-Ne connection is, IMO, the strongest connection that Two people can Have between them (maybe Fe-Fi, although Fi is much harder to crack I think).
The INTP also wants to explore and order the INFJ's inner world and learn and experience the INFJ's Fe.

The problems usually arise when Fe is misunderstood by both parties. INFJs can overuse their Fe purely ( I mean in compliments or insults) to the Poor INTP which obviously could cause problems. I generally find INTPs to be at fault for that one. Also, if Fe is coupled with Ni in an INFJ appealing with feeling to INTP's reason, then problems can arise as well (INFJ's fault). Emotional appeals (intentional or Not) to logic really should be avoided at all costs. And that's coming from an INFJ.
Why would INTPs be at fault for INFJs' overusing their Fe, which by definition seems to be INFJs' fault? And yes, emotional appeals are bad. Another problem arises when the INFJ experiences and becomes attached to an idealized Ni vision of the INTP and is quick to "forgive" lest the vision be disproven, causing relational discontent to build and fester in the INFJ's unconscious until it either leaks in seemingly irrational ways or explodes in bizarre or hurtful deed or word.

-Duxwing
 
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#38
"GOD INFJs DRIVE ME FUCKING NUTS"
Let's see if this is necessarily true by going back to roots as I've referred to in my blog.

INFJ = Ni Fe Ti Se;
INTP = Ti Ne Si Fe.

Talking about clashes of Fe is okay, but thinking-wise this is ass backward. Fe clashes are symptoms, not causes. If we go back to basics, we ask what are the strongest cognitive functions of each? What do each push the most?

Answer: the INFJ pushes Ni; the INTP pushes thinking. That doesn't mean that they do these things the "right" or the most socially acceptable or even reasonable way. It just means they go with those desires first. And desire has consequences when people are interacted with.

So how would an INTP get along with an INFJ? Answer: Their Ni theme must be recognized. What truth are they pushing that their whole being wants to get that truth out? That may not be easy to discover but it has to be done. Their Fe will tell you if you listen. Now an INTP is different. An INTP will look at the Ni theme and because of Ne breadth, look askance at it. Ne will tell the INTP that the Ni has truth but it doesn't cover the whole ground. If the INTP dares to speak up using his poor Fe he will generally lose to the superior Fe of the INFJ.

Note that both INFJ's and INTP's have Ti. These Ti's are different and are unlikely to work together. While the Ti on the INTP covers broad ground thanks to Ne, the Ti of the INFJ works mainly to support their Ni theme.

Note that the Ni specialty makes an INFJ highly proficient in that area. Ne since it covers a broader ground will be weaker on the Ni theme. The INTP would do well to listen to the Ni theme ... at first ... at least until he has thought it over.
 

Puffy

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#39
"GOD INFJs DRIVE ME FUCKING NUTS"
Let's see if this is necessarily true by going back to roots as I've referred to in my blog.

INFJ = Ni Fe Ti Se;
INTP = Ti Ne Si Fe.

Talking about clashes of Fe is okay, but thinking-wise this is ass backward. Fe clashes are symptoms, not causes. If we go back to basics, we ask what are the strongest cognitive functions of each? What do each push the most?

Answer: the INFJ pushes Ni; the INTP pushes thinking. That doesn't mean that they do these things the "right" or the most socially acceptable or even reasonable way. It just means they go with those desires first. And desire has consequences when people are interacted with.

So how would an INTP get along with an INFJ? Answer: Their Ni theme must be recognized. What truth are they pushing that their whole being wants to get that truth out? That may not be easy to discover but it has to be done. Their Fe will tell you if you listen. Now an INTP is different. An INTP will look at the Ni theme and because of Ne breadth, look askance at it. Ne will tell the INTP that the Ni has truth but it doesn't cover the whole ground. If the INTP dares to speak up using his poor Fe he will generally lose to the superior Fe of the INFJ.

Note that both INFJ's and INTP's have Ti. These Ti's are different and are unlikely to work together. While the Ti on the INTP covers broad ground thanks to Ne, the Ti of the INFJ works mainly to support their Ni theme.

Note that the Ni specialty makes an INFJ highly proficient in that area. Ne since it covers a broader ground will be weaker on the Ni theme. The INTP would do well to listen to the Ni theme ... at first ... at least until he has thought it over.
I think that's a pretty good summary of the basic differences.

Rather than "thinking" (as it's clear anyone pushing an Ni theme probably contemplates about it a lot) I wonder if a better term for Ti is "precision"? Ti probably has a more rational basis than Ni, which I have no issue admitting is an irrational function (intuition is irrational and doesn't function by step by step logic - it just knows/ has deep suspicions, hence Ni stubbornness.)

Ti for an INFJ serves to refine the Ni's theme or pattern, yes, but it's still Ti in the sense that it's about making it more precise.

Personally, I don't see Ni and Ne as antagonistic but forces that complement and provide checks and balances for each other. Ni is single-minded & driven; Ne is open-minded and a lot more varied. Ne contextualises Ni and situates it within something vaster than its operation; without it Ni would be inclined to see its pattern as everything and would push it without restraint. But without Ni, Ne would get lost in endless reflection and fail to accomplish anything. Both are "creative" instincts. Like TI said, when they're working together they're probably among the closest relationships someone can have.

I see no reason why Ni and Ne leads can't get along, it depends on the maturity of both people. I'm an INFJ but have always tried not to push my Ni where it's not appropriate, or let it dominate a relationship; I have plenty of friendships where it rarely comes up at all.
 
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#40
You need to respect Ni even if it drives you mad. Arguing or discussing with an INFJ works a lot better if you don't immediately try to pit your own view against theirs, the INFJ won't be able to follow your logical analysis because they are a lot slower at doing it, what makes things worse is that even if they can't follow things step by step they'll still often grasp what's going on intuitively. So what happens when you take this approach is that the INTP gets frustrated with the INFJs stubborn clinging to her/his opinion despite not being able to back it up in clear logical terms, meanwhile the INFJ will feel insulted by the INTPs lack of willingness to understand how her/his mind works, INFJs can be touchy about their Ti owing to its tertiary position, they'll feel inferior for not being able to keep up with the INTP all the while being frustrated because they know that their Ni has a point which the INTP just wont consider fully because he/she shoots it down before having a full picture of it.

Meaningful exchange between these types is actually not that hard to facilitate though. Recognize that neither should take discussion or fights to their own arena, and that both need to initially work on understanding each others views before they get to the actual discussing bit. If you do this you'll probably find that INFJs are also capable of as well willing to engage in objective, detached analysis.
 

The Introvert

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#41
Why would INTPs be at fault for INFJs' overusing their Fe, which by definition seems to be INFJs' fault?
It was poorly worded by me, what I was meaning to say is that to the INTP, Fe appears to be overused. I mean 'purely' as in having a stronger Fe - higher concentration of it. It's the INTP's fault if they get offended simply because someone else is better at dealing with emotions (so long as nobody's intentionally hurting each other's feelings, or there are repeated offenses of insensitivity on the INFJ's part).

But yes, in cases where Fe is actually overused, then it's probably the fault of the user, not teh recipient :p
 
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#42
The INTP also wants to explore and order the INFJ's inner world and learn and experience the INFJ's Fe.



Why would INTPs be at fault for INFJs' overusing their Fe, which by definition seems to be INFJs' fault? And yes, emotional appeals are bad. Another problem arises when the INFJ experiences and becomes attached to an idealized Ni vision of the INTP and is quick to "forgive" lest the vision be disproven, causing relational discontent to build and fester in the INFJ's unconscious until it either leaks in seemingly irrational ways or explodes in bizarre or hurtful deed or word.

-Duxwing
Because INTPs tolerate Fe less than do INFJs. What you consider overusing may simply be normal and healthy for an INFJ. By definition Fe is a strenght of the INFJ owing to its auxillary position.

Why should the INFJ tolerate your overusing of Ti and Ne? You forget to consider emotional aspects which do actually influence the way things work in the real world, you craft overly intricate logical systems and make impractical connections between concepts by means of your Ne. Even worse, because it all makes sense to you and because you had to craft it all deliberately you'll stick to it stubbornly unless its flaws is pointed out on your own terms. But INFJs don't speak quite the same language as do you, and so the INFJ has to watch from aside knowing that you'll eventually see that you are wrong through practical experience even though you could've avoided that painstaking process of finding out if only you had listened properly.
 

Duxwing

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#43
I in conversation often forget that others lack Ti-Ne, causing unexpected effects: carefully layered sarcasm and irony around painful subjects hurts instead of helping, social phenomena too late to me become evident, and my razor-sharp reason and wit cut people instead of ideas. INFJs unacquainted with Rationally-tempered people could easily misinterpret this behavior.

-Duxwing
 
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#44
CC. Agreed 100 percent until I got to "while being frustrated because they know that their Ni has a point which the INTP just wont consider fully because he/she shoots it down before having a full picture of it."

If the Ni theme or pattern is held too rigidly or lies too far inside the person (Ni), it will be impossible to get a full picture. The INFJ can, if they wish, withhold the whole picture so as to keep defending. An INTP, correspondingly can keep searching with Ne and fail to locate missing details which hide the whole. A question is, will the very act of searching be an insult for not seeing what any intuitive can see (claims is true) in the first place?
 
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#45
I think that's a pretty good summary of the basic differences.

Rather than "thinking" (as it's clear anyone pushing an Ni theme probably contemplates about it a lot) I wonder if a better term for Ti is "precision"? Ti probably has a more rational basis than Ni, which I have no issue admitting is an irrational function (intuition is irrational and doesn't function by step by step logic - it just knows/ has deep suspicions, hence Ni stubbornness.)

Ti for an INFJ serves to refine the Ni's theme or pattern, yes, but it's still Ti in the sense that it's about making it more precise.

Personally, I don't see Ni and Ne as antagonistic but forces that complement and provide checks and balances for each other. Ni is single-minded & driven; Ne is open-minded and a lot more varied. Ne contextualises Ni and situates it within something vaster than its operation; without it Ni would be inclined to see its pattern as everything and would push it without restraint. But without Ni, Ne would get lost in endless reflection and fail to accomplish anything. Both are "creative" instincts. Like TI said, when they're working together they're probably among the closest relationships someone can have.

I see no reason why Ni and Ne leads can't get along, it depends on the maturity of both people. I'm an INFJ but have always tried not to push my Ni where it's not appropriate, or let it dominate a relationship; I have plenty of friendships where it rarely comes up at all.
Speaking of terms:

I like that word, "pattern" as it sounds more neutral than "theme" as in good theme; bad theme.

I like the term "non-rational"* for N and S as irrational sounds too close to erroneous. N says that the whole picture is like THIS. S says a particular experience is like THIS. Both are direct. There is no logic involved.

Note that T and F are dynamic. That is a process takes place. N and S are immediate.

Also when speaking of CF's, we have a useful interpretation for each placement, be it primary 2ndary tertiary or quartiary that can be applied to the other fourteen temperaments.

*What about "direct"?
 
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#46
CC. Agreed 100 percent until I got to "while being frustrated because they know that their Ni has a point which the INTP just wont consider fully because he/she shoots it down before having a full picture of it."

If the Ni theme or pattern is held too rigidly or lies too far inside the person (Ni), it will be impossible to get a full picture. The INFJ can, if they wish, withhold the whole picture so as to keep defending. An INTP, correspondingly can keep searching with Ne and fail to locate missing details which hide the whole. A question is, will the very act of searching be an insult for not seeing what any intuitive can see (claims is true) in the first place?
The thing is depending on the context.. which perform the INFJ is talking to and what form the conversation takes he or she may be more or less successful at translating an Ni insight, so it's not always deliberate withdrawing. Although they can certainly do that as well and it's very douchey :P

I don't think the searching in itself is the issue. You just gotta meet halfway, else both people will think the other is stupid and annoying. Not that both parts are always to blame though.

One issue for me is that when INTPs go "but what about this.. does it not contradict this?" quickly coming up with new things to consider in the middle of a discussion, then I get exhausted quickly because I'm just not very good at that kind of thinking, I can't keep up and consider new data. Not that that always happens, sometimes my Ni knows where the new data fits in right away but when it doesn't I'm at a loss. That's when I should back off and take some time to think things over solo, alas oftentimes I don't and instead try to tackle things immediately because backing off can equal "losing". Childish I know :/

Sometimes INTPs wont quit it either, I dislike it when they demand you discuss something with them or say things like "you started by claiming this, so now you have no right to leave the discussion unless you admit defeat!", that's another form of childishness, one that I am also guilty of at times of course lol :P
 
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#47
CC. Agreed 100 percent until I got to "while being frustrated because they know that their Ni has a point which the INTP just wont consider fully because he/she shoots it down before having a full picture of it."

If the Ni theme or pattern is held too rigidly or lies too far inside the person (Ni), it will be impossible to get a full picture. The INFJ can, if they wish, withhold the whole picture so as to keep defending. An INTP, correspondingly can keep searching with Ne and fail to locate missing details which hide the whole. A question is, will the very act of searching be an insult for not seeing what any intuitive can see (claims is true) in the first place?
The thing is depending on the context.. which perform the INFJ is talking to and what form the conversation takes he or she may be more or less successful at translating an Ni insight, so it's not always deliberate withdrawing. Although they can certainly do that as well and it's very douchey :P

I don't think the searching in itself is the issue. You just gotta meet halfway, else both people will think the other is stupid and annoying. Not that both parts are always to blame though.

One issue for me is that when INTPs go "but what about this.. does it not contradict this?" quickly coming up with new things to consider in the middle of a discussion, then I get exhausted quickly because I'm just not very good at that kind of thinking, I can't keep up and consider new data. Not that that always happens, sometimes my Ni knows where the new data fits in right away but when it doesn't I'm at a loss. That's when I should back off and take some time to think things over solo, alas oftentimes I don't and instead try to tackle things immediately because backing off can equal "losing". Childish I know :/

Sometimes INTPs wont quit it either, I dislike it when they demand you discuss something with them or say things like "you started by claiming this, so now you have no right to leave the discussion unless you admit defeat by adopting my point of view as you should because elsewise you just make no sense!", that's another form of childishness, one that I am also guilty of at times of course lol :P
 

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#48
One issue for me is that when INTPs go "but what about this.. does it not contradict this?" quickly coming up with new things to consider in the middle of a discussion, then I get exhausted quickly because I'm just not very good at that kind of thinking, I can't keep up and consider new data. Not that that always happens, sometimes my Ni knows where the new data fits in right away but when it doesn't I'm at a loss. That's when I should back off and take some time to think things over solo, alas oftentimes I don't and instead try to tackle things immediately because backing off can equal "losing". Childish I know :/

Sometimes INTPs wont quit it either, I dislike it when they demand you discuss something with them or say things like "you started by claiming this, so now you have no right to leave the discussion unless you admit defeat by adopting my point of view as you should because elsewise you just make no sense!", that's another form of childishness, one that I am also guilty of at times of course lol :P
:o

Oops.
 
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#49
Judging base on my recent experiences with CC I can understand the dilemma on a more personal basis.
 

Latte

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#50
o:

Reading this thread has resulted in getting previous experiences I have had more in order.

This

The INTP also wants to explore and order the INFJ's inner world and learn and experience the INFJ's Fe.
and the posts where there was talk about the INFJs desire for its expression of its feelings and view to be recognized resulted in increased clarity in the hindsight of how I came to very distressingly butt heads with an INFJ who was very close to me over and over.

The INFJ is not to be regarded as typical for its type. It was highly skilled at logic and immensely intelligent, but also much more emotionally driven and intense than most INFJs.

The INFJ in question would express how it felt in reaction to specific instances of behavior by me (who were wrongfully interpreted) , and instead of first explicitly acknowledging the suffering of the INFJ and providing comfort, I went through the route of explaining the behavior.

I did this because of two reasons. One was that I thought altering the understanding of what occurred for the INFJ would help diminish the distress. The second was because I myself felt hurt about my behavior being interpreted in that manner so much that I automatically became cold on the outside towards the INFJ and felt like I couldn't stomach providing the INFJ any comfort as long as the INFJ thought I was someone who would do/say as the INFJ interpreted. It felt false and uncomfortable and I saw it as likely to result in resentment in the long term if it were to become a pattern. There was a feeling of distance and a want to withdraw for protection.

This was interpreted by the INFJ as me "attempting to invalidate its emotions and being defensive", which was definitely a correct assessment. I saw the explanations as something that could help the INFJ calm down, but it didn't, it merely indicated to the INFJ that I didn't acknowledge its suffering, and possibly(probably) the INFJ thought I thought its suffering was as invalid as the interpretations that lead to them were erroneous and that I was unsympathetic. Something which was not true but that would have been difficult to see from the INFJs perspective given how I talked, and trying to explain this would be... well... yes, invalidating feelings and being defensive.

So... I wouldn't explicitly acknowledge the INFJs reactions, and the INFJ wouldn't explicitly acknowledge that what it reacted to was a misinterpretation, and from there it developed into a meta thing.

Generally in my life, I have approached issues from the viewpoint that objective reality has to be established first, then reaction to reality has to be tended to or molded as a secondary thing that is mostly dependent on the former.

The strong inclination towards going this route as well as my own very sore internal reactions to being wrongfully interpreted at the time were things I would have had to deal with / sidestep / leave for later to better tackle the reaction pattern of the specific INFJ in a fruitful manner.

I think... for the INFJ to adapt to my own reaction pattern, it would have to learn to sidestep / suspend its own feelings and preference for which order in which things are to be resolved. The emotive reconciliation through sympathetic and amiable expressions having to wait for the reality view reconciliation through discussion and clarification to finish.
 
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