Giggling, Jiggling, Boobies

Cognisant

Prolific Member
I've been watching videos on YouTube from Extra Credits and Jimquisition, the really interesting ones being about women playing games, the objectification of women in games and all that gender studies stuff.

Finally I've figured out what's been bugging me into watching all this.

I see their examples and I wondered what was so bad about them, it's damn near nudity a lot of the time but nudity isn't that offensive so I figured there had to be something else, so I pondered a while about portrayals of men I might find offensive, the muscle bound jar-heads from Gears of War annoy me, but not much, I've seen male models in nothing but their briefs, it's a little off putting to see on Ellen (I doubt she liked it either) but if that were a game protagonist it wouldn't stop me playing the game, heck there's many games targeted at guys almost exactly like that.

Then it hit me, the Twilight books/movies, or Justin Bieber, they irritate me somehow, but why, what is it about these examples that gets under my skin when less blatently crude or exploitive media dosen't?

I think it's because of what I'm going to call "womanification", likewise the male equivalent is "manification", I think it's essentially outrage at an obvious deception, in the most offensive examples of either type the character (Bieber's public persona is a character) is something irreplicateable. I mean a guy sees Bieber on TV, of this is first exposure there's no initial reaction, then he sees the girls going nuts about Bieber, then the camera goes back to Bieber and a disconnect occurs in the guy's brain, on one hand his subconscious is telling him that if this is what women want then he should study it, emulate it where he can, but consciously he's very much aware that Bieber's this smug little shit, a turd polished to a gleam, and that's something the guy desperately does not want to be.

Say you're in bed and your partner asks you to moo like a cow or pretend you're a relative of theirs, it's exactly that heinousness, it's not the role play that's offensive, it's the role itself in the context. So when a woman sees Kasumi running down beech in a bikini, gigantic boobs jiggling as she giggles like an idiot the rage comes from the realisation that no woman would so enthusiastically degrade herself like that, in a single scene the portrayal of character is already internally inconsistent, it's a blatant lie, and however much it may stupefy guys it's precisely what she (the veiwer) doesn't want to be.

Now how many of you we're drawn here by the title?

Cognisant

Prolific Member
To be clear, Womanification = The unrealistic projection of female desires onto a male character.

Manification = The unrealistic projection of male desires onto a female character.

Imagine Bieber as a guy that's been possessed by a female ghost who is now shamelessly doing whatever she wants, likewise the Kasumi example is a male mind that has gotten I to a female body, there evidently being no consequences and thus no responsibility taken for protecting the reputations of these bodies.

Duxwing

I've Overcome Existential Despair
Your argument seems quite solid. Perhaps you ought to perform a study!

-Duxwing

Cognisant

Prolific Member
Hold still a moment.
*draws a pentagram in blood on Duxwing's forehead*

Don't ask where it's from, you don't wanna know.

Now I need a female volunteer!

Duxwing

I've Overcome Existential Despair
Hold still a moment.
*draws a pentagram in blood on Duxwing's forehead*

Don't ask where it's from, you don't wanna know.

Now I need a female volunteer!
Hey, wait a minute. You just said that you'd outgrown such silly superstitions.

-Duxwing

SpaceYeti

Prolific Member
Who's Kasumi? Also, the unrealistic desires are still desires, and denying them entirely wouldn't exactly seem healthy to me. Also, why do people hate Justin Beiber so much? He's a celebrity. Just like all celebrities, people want to sex him up. So what?

Cognisant

Prolific Member
A "Dead Or Alive" character that also featured in a beach volleyball game, pretty much fanservice personified.

Well I usually ignore him, after all I'm clearly not his audience, ditto for Twilight, but I'm making a point and using him as an example, if you think it's a poor example perhaps you can give a better one, or if you disagree with the point itself by all means lets hear what you've got to say.

Hayyel

Active Member
Also, why do people hate Justin Beiber so much? He's a celebrity. Just like all celebrities, people want to sex him up. So what?
Actually, I have no idea. There are a lot of things that irritate me in the modern day media, but I don't know why. I would say any singer or band made up of kids or teenagers are just plain annoying. And I hate Twilight because it's stupid (and I'm a Harry Potter person besides that).

I think it's an "I want to belong to this group" kind of thing. Besides, Biever jokes are funny.

SpaceYeti

Prolific Member
Actually, I have no idea. There are a lot of things that irritate me in the modern day media, but I don't know why. I would say any singer or band made up of kids or teenagers are just plain annoying. And I hate Twilight because it's stupid (and I'm a Harry Potter person besides that).

I think it's an "I want to belong to this group" kind of thing. Besides, Biever jokes are funny.
Through my entire life, I've known plenty of people who like things I don't like, and I've liked plenty of stuff others didn't. Just because I don't like it, why do I have to have something against other people liking it? They can like what they want. Leave 'em alone. People have this weird thing with celebrities in general. These people actually care about pictures of their favorite stars going to a grocery store to buy milk. I can't comprehend it, but who am I to tell them their creepy obsession is bad?

Hayyel

Active Member
Yeah, I usually don't give a crap about gossip magazines and I always find it weird that some people get their high from looking at pics of people shopping. Still, even if you know it is not your problem, we all judge others. We judge them by their looks, their intelligence, their habits, etc. But back to the original topic. I also think that there is a little bit of jealousy going on under all that annoyance. At some point in life everyone fantasizes about being free to do whatever you want without any repercussions.

SpaceYeti

Prolific Member
Of course it's jealousy. Why else would you care that someone else is getting something you're not?

Hayyel

Active Member
So we solved it. Jealousy makes the world go round.

SpaceYeti

Prolific Member
I'd say the celebrity phenomena in it's entirety is, by and large, a product of jealousy, and a replacement for an intangible god, whatever emotion leads people to god/hero-worship. And maybe if you don't like a celebrity, it's like a threatening, enemy god-replacer.

walfin

Democrazy
Cognitive dissonance.

When it's not just what you are != what you want to be, but what you want to be != what you think you want to be != what you think you should want to be.

Etheri

Prolific Member
Now how many of you we're drawn here by the title?
I confess.

Altho I was rather certain it'd be a discussion, considering you posted it. If it were posted by a username i didn't know, i probably wouldn't have bothered as it'd probably just have been a spambot with scam links. Or maybe i'm just trying to talk my way out of this...

The Gopher

President
You have to think about this from a money making perspective though. Companies are really between the devil and the deep blue sea in many regards. On one hand they will get hated by many for being sexist/creating unrealistic expectations etc... etc... but on the other hand they will lose out to those that do. How much money do you think Justin Beiber made? He didn't make it through being an amazing singer he made it because he was a washed product. He then is blamed for singing horribly (sure he doesn't sing great but still not horrible) because of it.

And yes the title was curious to say the least.

Oedipus

Jerk
A very interesting post. I definitely see what you mean about the manification. I used to try to give all that stuff a wide berth, but since anime is chock-a-block with it it's not the easiest thing to do.

redbaron

ok
Say you're in bed and your partner asks you to moo like a cow...it's exactly that heinousness, it's not the role play that's offensive, it's the role itself in the context.
I wouldn't hesitate to moo like a cow in the middle of sex.

Actually now that you've given me the idea, I'll probably do it whether they like it or not...

Anyway I liked the rest of your post. I actually liked Tomb Raider (newest one) a lot because she was so normal. I don't know if I would have if Lara had been all sexed-up with 'perfect' proportions...it actually irritates me when gritty games feature scantily-clad female heroines.

The Gopher

President
Well as long as you don't mind being left high and dry when they get up and leave you.... It's an interesting idea though...

Cognisant

Prolific Member
I think th' benefit o' understandin' this be that mostly nekked ladies arent goin' t' disappear from games, movies, etc, but they dasn't be havin' t' on accoun' o' now that we understand th' crux o' th' issue we address th' root cause o' 't rather than jus' treatin' th' symptoms. While flippin' through a gossip mag on th' break room table I noticed an abundance o' half nekked lasses wi' unrealistic bodies, perhaps nay as sexualised as what Id find in a gamer mag but still I liked 't, any guy would, an' arr lasses so too, tho I canna e'en begin t' understand th' appeal o' what these gossip mags be about. So thar be I think th' possibility fer games wi' sexy female protagonists that dasn't degrade lasses an' th' difference between that an' what we be havin' now be surprisingly wee, all we need be a change in context.

Th' nuns in fetish clothin' in th' recent "Hitman Absolution" game be mainly offensive on accoun' o' nothin' about them makes th' slightest sense, but if 't did make sense then 't wouldna be such a problem. In earlier Hitman games thar ben many lasses wearin' incredibly provocative clothin' but 't has nerebeen such an issue on accoun' o' thar be always a reason fer 't, they be exotic performers, servin' wenches at private parties, costumed t' blend in, or simply at homeport in the'r underbritches (I can totally relate t' bein' homeport alone an' nekked) so wi' these explanations (howereflimsy) lasses could dismiss these sexualised outfits on accoun' o' they knew they only applied t' them highly specific situations.

Furthermore context be good fer guys too, I mean part o' th' reason why th' Hitman Absolution trailer got such an outcry from its predominantly male audience be that 't wasnt jus' degradin' fer th' female characters on screen, 'tis degradin' fer a guy t' watch, th' cognitive dissonance breaks th' suspension o' disbelief, leavin' th' viewer t' be seein' hisself in third swabbie, watchin' hisself watch what be unabashed smut, by an' large thats nay a happy introspective moment t' be havin'.

Whereas wi' context th' suspension o' disbelief wouldna ben broken an' th' context could be havin' added t' th' experience, heck e'en smut be imported by context, between two identical pictures o' a nekked lass th' one wi' th' text bubble wi' somethin' like "I`ve been waitin' fer ye" in 'tis much more attractive, 't sets a scene in me hade, whereas th' picture alone be jus' a nekked lass posin' fer a picture.

Architect

Professional INTP
Cognisant, th' James Joyce of th INTP for'

Solitaire U.

Last of the V-8 Interceptors
I don't know...

I've always kind of suspected that the popularity of Bieber and his ilk is evidence that many women appear to have sexual fantasies revolving around 12 year old boys. Of course, if it is assumed that Bieber's fanbase is mostly comprised of 12 year old girls, that probably makes sense. Somehow though, I have my doubts that's entirely accurate. I think under other circumstances (like inferior marketing) Bieber would simply be relegated to gay porn star fodder, since that's the only sub-group that doesn't seem to be afraid to admit that young teens are sexually attractive. I think Bieber's whole persona is carefully constructed to permit stealthy-psuedo-healthy expressions of that taboo desire.

That said, I'm not really a 'bouncing breast' enthusiast. This is more my style of woman:

That, combined with the fact that I married and had babies with a petite Asian woman, might speak volumes about my own latent homosexuality. However, I will say that both Vasquez and my wife have nice, though not 'giggly' breasts.

Apparently, I'm down with the 'manification', of women.

Perhaps part of the appeal of these women to me is their lack of plastic 'accessories', like bouncing breasts and 'giggles'. But you know, I can't fault a woman for choosing to 'run down the beach in a high-res blur of silicone and giggles'. Lara Croft and her various real-life impersonators certainly cant't deny that there are huge incentives in doing so.

I mention Croft only because I recently caught my 12 year old son panning in for a crotch shot of Lara while playing Tomb Raider 2 on his PS1 emulator.

SU

Hayyel

Active Member
I still think that if there wouldn't be any social stigma against these things, for a lot of people it would be liberating to just run around with juggling boobies and insane giggles.

Of course, seeing as how we were taught all our lives that that's crazy, we don't want to be crazy. But there IS a saying that the crazy people have more fun.

Think about it this way... if there was absolutely no chance that someone would see or hear you, would you enjoy dancing around nude? I would say, yes -, not matter how unattractive you find yourself.

So that's what it basically comes down to... what society currently thinks about as acceptable. Right?

SpaceYeti

Prolific Member
I still think that if there wouldn't be any social stigma against these things, for a lot of people it would be liberating to just run around with juggling boobies and insane giggles.

Of course, seeing as how we were taught all our lives that that's crazy, we don't want to be crazy. But there IS a saying that the crazy people have more fun.

Think about it this way... if there was absolutely no chance that someone would see or hear you, would you enjoy dancing around nude? I would say, yes -, not matter how unattractive you find yourself.

So that's what it basically comes down to... what society currently thinks about as acceptable. Right?
Exactly. The cut of your jib really wouldn't matter if nobody were around to judge it. Frankly, the only reason I ever wear clothes in warm times is because other people wouldn't approve of me naked in public and, further, it would be illegal. It's also true that sticking to what other people expect of you is pretty boring. You have to be at least somewhat selfish and act against the assumed social roles in order to be you and enjoy it.