Geeks ARE sexy!

[Cavallier]

My first thread so give me a break here:

I've been reading a book called Nerds by David Anderegg. It's a fascinating look at how our society treats nerds/geeks. You'd probably find it in the sociology section of your local book store if you want to read it. This book left me feeling discouraged about our society as a whole. Anderegg unearths a surprisingly high amount of derision directed towards kids by their peers, teachers, and worst of all parents for being deeply interested in subjects such as math science or even literature. These kids are being ridiculed for unselfconsciously loving learning, knowledge, and being scholarly.

It seems the unselfconscious bit is the tricky part. People get disturbed by the enthusiasm a child shows for learning. For this reason they discourage the child's enthusiasm instead of fostering it. They don't encourage the child to be intelligent and inquisitive or even attempt to help him/her develop a more socially acceptable way of showing their enthusiasm.

What do kids get out of this? Well, little Jimmy down the street really likes math, manga, and science projects. He gets "carried away" with explaining the intricacies of the things he loves so the kids at school make fun of him relentlessly. His teachers, parents, and other authority figures don't step in and help Jimmy out because they think it is common and maybe even appropriate that the other children ridicule him. Besides, little Jimmy is so smart he'll probably end up as a millionaire anyway. They think to themselves, "he doesn't need our help or encouragement". Two years later Jimmy is failing math.

Anderegg points out several studies which show that American children are inexplicably behind the children from much of the rest of the developed world. He postulates part of the reason for this is our cultural prejudice toward geeky/nerdy people. He notes that India alone provides America with the majority of it's college graduates in engineering and math. He goes on to say that until recently (pre-Americanization) the culture of India didn't have a habit of ridiculing the intelligent. In fact the girls were expected to marry someone who was considered scholastically accomplished over someone who was merely athletic. The intelligent one would be the better provider in the long run. The girls themselves looked forward to marrying someone who was well educated. In fact, they would and often do willingly enter into arranged marriages set up by their parents if they know they are going to be married to a techie/engineer type.

It's kind of like marrying a duke over a farmer in old Europe except that intelligence instead of an aristocratic title is seen as having a direct correlation with wealth and prestige. One Indian scholar referenced in the book explains that the best way for the boys to get the cream of the crop of girls is to study math and science and graduate with an important degree. Yet, here in America we tell our kids that if you like math to much, do well in science, or (God Forbid) you are a techie you can't get laid. Geeky boys don't get the girls. Guys don't make passes at girls who wear glasses is one of those outdated mantras girls used to repeat to one another. Even into high school many girls believe that being smart doesn't get the guys to notice you. In fact most girls think it'll send the guys running screaming "she a witch!". Being smart doesn't get you laid?!?!? That's debilitating to the educational aspirations of an 8th grader let me tell you!

Personally, once I got out of high school and into college I quickly discovered that geeky and cute could very much equate to the same thing. I could even call myself rapturous when I found that my brain and quick wit did actually get me the guys. "Who knew?" I asked myself. Anderegg goes go on to explain that it is a common phenomenon in the United States for the geeky to discover intelligence is a turn on instead of a turn off in college (As long as you bathe regularly...not bathing regularly gives all geeks a bad name ). However, he thinks that the damage is already done. Little Jimmy, noted before, has already lost precious time with his failed math classes and now that he finds he might be interested in the sciences again he's behind and has to play catch up. Often there is too much to be caught up and instead of finishing college with an engineering, computer science, or biology degree he ends up dropping out and doing something less challenging.

Of course I'm simplifying Mr. Anderegg's book, Nerds, a bit for the sake of saving you all a long post but I think I've covered the important stuff. What would happen if we turned the tides and started to actually revere the intelligent? What if we expected our children to strive for intellectual accomplishments instead of just being a jock or worst being socially appropriate but an idiot?

As a community of INTPs (mostly) and therefore made up of people (for the most part ) who probably proclaim themselves to be geeks like myself I wonder if any of you have thoughts or lacking that something orgasmically geeky to say...

As an aside....It took me forever to decide where to make this thread. At first I thought perhaps the literature section but I don't to talk about the book so much as everyone's reactions to the ideas it presents. Then I thought perhaps the Lounge but it's not a wayward or personal enough thread for there. So I finally settled for the psychology section since it's about sociology and they are related subjects. Bah I say! I've edited this thread till my eyes bled. I am done.

[edit] I've got a few nascent and undeveloped thoughts now that I'm re-reading what I've written. I'll see if any of you are thinking along the same lines before I actually say any more though[/edit]

 

[Invoke Ninja's True Power]

I can say I spent the good majority of my school years trying to dumb myself down so I would get more respect from my peers. It never worked. I probably could be done with college now and working a fat paid job by now if I hadn't held myself back like that. Wish I would have realized to just say fuck off to everybody at a younger age. I was too smart for my parents. I could rarely have an intellectual conversation with them.

I think the social acceptance of stupid drugs over smart drugs also has a huge effect on our society's mentality. Alcohol's dominance as king is unacceptable to me. Even the mainstream accepted beer is watered down.(bud,coors,miller isn't so bad but still sucks) Give me a Newcastle or some rum. The only domestic beers I can think of that don't suck are micro-brews. I'm in Michigan and there's one company called Bell's, they make some nice beers. Enough about beer/alcohol though. I don't even wanna get started on my view of the whole war on drugs. I'm just gonna say, it makes no sense to make something illegal and then complain when "terrorists" are using said illegal substance to make their money.

There is no freedom of speech, no freedom of religion. I don't even know why we still even have a damn constitution at all. Nobody follows it. Censorship is everywhere and drugs that should be used for spiritual purposes are banned. Oh, unless you are a certain minority group that had horrible genocide practiced against them for a couple hundred years that I won't name. Shit, if that's all it takes to get religious drug use ok'd kill me now, start the white genocide with me. The common attitude towards drug use is, "Will it get me fucked up?" Using a specific spiritual tool to get fucked up is like taking a power drill and using as a hammer. It will work but the power drill isn't going to function as well anymore.

also I think abolishing the PC(politically correct) system would be a nice thing. People get offended over the stupidest things. PC just dumbs us down even more.

This country needs to start making some goddamn sense before we all go insane, if its not already too late

sorry, this became more of a rant about things that piss me off than me pushing for intellectual superiority. I have been in a crap state of mind for the past few weeks and my mind is not able to think properly, I wish I could articulate better and say what I really want to say but my mind just kind of turns to mush rather quickly lately. Not good as school starts in less than 2 weeks for me. I just hope I can find some study aides before the semester gets in too far. I don't need another panic attack making me drop out of school again.

edit: don't mind me, I have a strong tendency to go off on random tangents

 

[Dormouse]

Hmm. To begin, I think I should make it clear that I have no first hand experience with this kind of bias. Members of my family have always done their best to foster any intellectual or artistic interests we developped, and even gone out of their way to encourage our endeavours.
At school it's been a different story, but as I'm an extremely laid back person I'm ignored at worst. And I do tend to prefer solitude, so it isn't a huge concern of mine.

That said, this information is extremely eye-opening and more than a little troubling. It's not that intelligence is the only quality that should be valued . . . But the fact that it is being discouraged is , well, discouraging.

I definetly believe this society should make more of an effort to expose children to new ideas and especially support critical thinking. Not every kids gonna be an Einstein, but everyone should have the ability to quietly reflect and think for themselves.

While a society that favours intellectual pursuit over other components sounds nice, I'm worried that it would only turn the tables and create a world of haughty and arrogant geniuses who would readily ridicule anyone with a lower IQ. I think what we need to look for is an education system and society that values individual talent over conformism and encourages a healthy balance of interests and a passion for life.

 

[Invoke Ninja's True Power]

I remember playing this current events game in school sometimes. It was something the whole class would do on fridays for fun. I would come up with the right answers a lot but nobody would listen to me because I wasn't popular.

 

[Miss Led]

As a society that bases value on social inclusion, we will always be pushed to act and believe in the most mainstream of ways. That puts the hardship on those that think differently than the mainstream-- NT's for instance.

Fitting in and being desirable to others socially (as in, thin, trendy, rich, athletic), will always be the mainstream ideal.

It is unfortunate that because hardly anyone meets the high standards of societal desirability, teasing and ostracizing others to detract from thier own failings is the natural defense that people choose to protect themselves. It is cruel, but by pointing out and teasing achievers, they accomplish a two-fold feat. A) they make themselves feel better about not accomplishing scholorly pursuits, which they sense are important, but have no desire, drive, and perhaps even ability to accomplish, and B) attract positive reinforcement from others that also want to deflect attention away from their flaws and feel part of a "group".

Nothing brings people together like a chance to criticize and mock, to feel superior and more popular. This is why team sports are so popular and teams fanatically defended by their fans. Their team or "side" is good. The other team or side is bad.

Essentially, this is the cultural norm in the United States. If only 15 or so percent of the population is NT and desires to put learning before social acceptance, they will always be the underdog and not valued as highly as the majority.

Just a bit of rambling on the subject...I am actually too tired to go further with this for now....

 

[Beat Mango]

What is it with you and sex?? Anyway, women in general will be attracted to men based on what values and traits their society promotes. So geeks are not sexy unless, as in India (according to your book), typically geeky traits are promoted as being positive. Should us INTPs be out in the community actively promoting such traits? I believe we should be, yes. As for girl geeks, possibly like yourself, well, I doubt it's the geekiness that's sexy, although it might be a nice bonus for some guys if you're already good-looking.

While a society that favours intellectual pursuit over other components sounds nice, I'm worried that it would only turn the tables and create a world of haughty and arrogant geniuses who would readily ridicule anyone with a lower IQ. I think what we need to look for is an education system and society that values individual talent over conformism and encourages a healthy balance of interests and a passion for life.

The point is it's biased towards ahleticism/positivity/sociability/general ES-ness at the moment and we should be trying to repair that balance. It's hard though, because at the end of the day thsi discussion is about power, and power sustains itself. Extraverts/jocks are in power at the moment because that's the method that best works to gain power, so it works both ways. It's a cycle: extraversion helps gain power, and power rewards those with extraversion.

 

[Cavallier]

As a society that bases value on social inclusion, we will always be pushed to act and believe in the most mainstream of ways. That puts the hardship on those that think differently than the mainstream-- NT's for instance.

Fitting in and being desirable to others socially (as in, thin, trendy, rich, athletic), will always be the mainstream ideal.

It is unfortunate that because hardly anyone meets the high standards of societal desirability, teasing and ostracizing others to detract from thier own failings is the natural defense that people choose to protect themselves. It is cruel, but by pointing out and teasing achievers, they accomplish a two-fold feat. A) they make themselves feel better about not accomplishing scholorly pursuits, which they sense are important, but have no desire, drive, and perhaps even ability to accomplish, and B) attract positive reinforcement from others that also want to deflect attention away from their flaws and feel part of a "group".

Nothing brings people together like a chance to criticize and mock, to feel superior and more popular. This is why team sports are so popular and teams fanatically defended by their fans. Their team or "side" is good. The other team or side is bad.

Essentially, this is the cultural norm in the United States. If only 15 or so percent of the population is NT and desires to put learning before social acceptance, they will always be the underdog and not valued as highly as the majority.

Just a bit of rambling on the subject...I am actually too tired to go further with this for now....

Nothing brings people together like a chance to criticize and mock...I've never thought about it that way before. Interesting.

Hmm. To begin, I think I should make it clear that I have no first hand experience with this kind of bias. Members of my family have always done their best to foster any intellectual or artistic interests we developped, and even gone out of their way to encourage our endeavours.
At school it's been a different story, but as I'm an extremely laid back person I'm ignored at worst. And I do tend to prefer solitude, so it isn't a huge concern of mine.

That said, this information is extremely eye-opening and more than a little troubling. It's not that intelligence is the only quality that should be valued . . . But the fact that it is being discouraged is , well, discouraging.

I definetly believe this society should make more of an effort to expose children to new ideas and especially support critical thinking. Not every kids gonna be an Einstein, but everyone should have the ability to quietly reflect and think for themselves.

While a society that favours intellectual pursuit over other components sounds nice, I'm worried that it would only turn the tables and create a world of haughty and arrogant geniuses who would readily ridicule anyone with a lower IQ. I think what we need to look for is an education system and society that values individual talent over conformism and encourages a healthy balance of interests and a passion for life.

I was fairly lucky myself. I had a crazy ENTP father who delighted in showing me new things and perspectives whenever possible. My sargent-like mother was an ISTJ who taught me to be independent and capable. (honestly I don't know how they didn't kill each other) I could easily discuss anything I wanted with my parents in an intellectual manner...which actually got me in trouble a bit when I tried to do the same thing with teachers and other superiors as a child.

I agree that we can't (if we ever could that is) simply swing the pendulum the other way. A society that valued nothing but intelligence would be just as bad. I think we need to strive for balance. Read a book and do a little exercising. Participate in a debate and attempt to bathe regularly (<--the griny is my friend!) This train of thought has me thinking about the Greeks and their Spartan/Athenian divergent groups. Perhaps we could simply centralize various ideologies/personality types/people with certain strengths but stay the same country. When we have war we'll send off the military fighter types. When a situation arises where we need an intellectual we'll call on a different part of the country. We could live with people we agreed with and identified with and...? Wait, I think this might not be such a good idea. Like the greeks all the states would end up spending all our time fighting each other and never getting anything done...nevermind...

Wish I would have realized to just say fuck off to everybody at a younger age.

There is no freedom of speech, no freedom of religion. I don't even know why we still even have a damn constitution at all. Nobody follows it.

PC just dumbs us down even more.

This country needs to start making some goddamn sense before we all go insane, if its not already too late

sorry, this became more of a rant about things that piss me off than me pushing for intellectual superiority. I have been in a crap state of mind for the past few weeks and my mind is not able to think properly, I wish I could articulate better and say what I really want to say but my mind just kind of turns to mush rather quickly lately. Not good as school starts in less than 2 weeks for me. I just hope I can find some study aides before the semester gets in too far. I don't need another panic attack making me drop out of school again.

edit: don't mind me, I have a strong tendency to go off on random tangents

First off I have to say Man you crack me up!

Okay, moving on. I learned to blow off people early on and that has been good and bad for me. On the good side I don't have to deal with them much. On the bad side I think that I might be missing out on some interesting learning experience. I've come to realize that just because somebody pisses me off and gets relegated to pond scum in my head does not mean I can't learn something from them despite their idiocy.

The whole PC thing drives me a little crazy. It's as if being politically correct has taken the place of being respectful. That's what makes me so frustrated with it, it's the lazy person's way of being respectful. I don't have to think about how to treat people so long as I use the correct term when referring to them. I know many people who wouldn't dream of using a derogatory term for a person whose different from themselves but still manage to be jerks.

In response to the no freedom of speech thing I'd like to disagree. In fact I think I will disagree: The Jews in the WWII had no freedom of speech. The Buddhists in communist China had no freedom of speech. Anywhere where people are outright killed or tortured for expressing their viewpoints there is no freedom of speech. Now, that does not mean I think we don't have suppression of speech. I think that more than anything in our society if an idea does not seem marketable then it does not get much attention because those who run the media are looking for money just like everybody else. A sad state of affairs...

Don't apologize, random tangents are fun!

 

[Ermine]

I can't believe people sometimes. What parent or teacher in their right mind would do nothing and assume bullying is normal for ANYTHING?!

I just wonder why the antagonism is focused on guys though. I'm definitely a nerd, and while I'm not popular by any stretch, I was never ridiculed either. Well, if they did by way of ostracizing, I could have cared less, I guess. I didn't bother with the anti-intellectual types anyway.

Off the top of my head, the only plausible reason why a geek would be disliked would be the tendency to carry on and on on an obscure topic without trying to explain anything.

Well, now that I think about it, I don't think it's the geekiness as much as it is the way people correlate that with being socially awkward and having a low EQ. Part of that lack is due to geeks being looked down upon, but I can't help but think that it's the imbalance that causes the problem. I'm not saying the ridicule is justified, but that it inevitably makes things harder. While the people that are all social with no intellect have their day, they also fail miserably in other ways.

 

[Morel Panic]

This is the problem is with the paradigm() behind mainstream schooling. The current way of thinking is that school is a big machine. Uneducated little brats go in, disciplined and educated adults come out. Anyone who actually wants to learn for the sake of learning, not just passing through the machine is a malfunction, and therefore a target for bullying.

I don't see anything wrong with the typical SJ sort wanting a school like this. The problem is that, with the government mostly in charge of schools, and "the people" mostly in charge of the government (well...kind of...), we get the kind of democracy where two wolves (SJs) and a sheep (INXP and similar) vote on what's for dinner. I'm not saying that government can't be the solution (though I personally have not been convinced otherwise), but it is the problem. SJ run schools will always call an INTP a geek. It's just how they're run.

This country needs to start making some goddamn sense before we all go insane, if its not already too late

it's too late...

 

[Invoke Ninja's True Power]

I think NT's votes should count for 2 votes since we think more than 2 non NT's combined. I don't see equal representation in government or schools or much else for that matter. According to the constitution there should be 1 representative for every 20,000 people. Currently there is 1 representative for every 500,000 people. The reason for this: Its a hell of a lot easier to bribe 400 reps than it is to bribe 1,000 or 10,000 representatives. Its all just a way of keeping money as god. Why else wold the dollar bill say in god we trust unless money = god?

edit: ^^he said paradigm

 

[walfin]

What parent or teacher in their right mind would do nothing and assume bullying is normal for ANYTHING?!

Parents and teachers for whom bullying was something normal in their school days?

Well, now that I think about it, I don't think it's the geekiness as much as it is the way people correlate that with being socially awkward and having a low EQ. Part of that lack is due to geeks being looked down upon, but I can't help but think that it's the imbalance that causes the problem. I'm not saying the ridicule is justified, but that it inevitably makes things harder. While the people that are all social with no intellect have their day, they also fail miserably in other ways.

The thing is there are people who are both intellectual and social.

Which may be part of the reason why socially awkward intellectuals get ridiculed, since hey, look at that guy, he's smart and polished etc. etc., but you're only smart.

Social but totally dumb (by many people's standards) people get ridiculed as well. Bimbos, etc.

 

[Kidege]

Um. The nice, good student in my society usually gets respect. This doesn't translate into popularity, but they're not mocked. (Unless they act like teachers' pet). I've met good students who were terrifically popular.

The super geeky kid with their heads in the clouds does get ostracized. Again, not really picked on, but it's not a pleasant experience. (This was me, if you can't guess

)

I just hope the "American" influence doesn't make it worse.

 

[Invoke Ninja's True Power]

I see myself as an unpolished, unrefined gem. If people could have recognized that and worked with me instead of ostracizing me/ trying to just blindly conform me, maybe I could have some beneficial properties/beauty instead of being negative and hateful of almost every aspect of society today. America has a great system of making people stupid and ignorant. That is what freedom means to 90% of people here, being able to be dumb and ignorant of everything else besides themselves. Mission accomplished, all I care about anymore is making myself not hateful and depressed all the time.

 

[Anthile]

^ So it's everyone else's fault but not your own? Isn't that a bit too easy?

 

[Invoke Ninja's True Power]

^ So it's everyone else's fault but not your own? Isn't that a bit too easy?

Its not everyone else's fault, Its my fault for thinking I had to conform to their way of thinking/being and ignoring my own strengths for so many years just to try to fit in. Now I am playing a huge game of catch up. Its gonna be an interesting next few years.

edit: It gets tough living with the thought, that I used to blame society/everyone else and their treatment of me for my own problems when in fact it is mostly just problems I created for myself. As human we all have the need for some kind of scapegoat sometimes and that sucks.

 

[snowqueen]

I was bullied at school for being a geek and then in my final 2 years of school my English teacher carried out a campaign of demolishing my confidence by lying on my essays, marking them down and writing rude comments all over them. It put my life progress back by about 20 years.

My super-bright daughter ended up at the bottom of the maths class at 8 years old because her teacher only liked girly chatty girls who liked dancing. Luckily she had me for a mother and she's now top of maths in her entire year at secondary school - in fact she's top of most of her subjects. I taught her emotional self-management btw, not maths! She's also passed that on to her friends who are all the rest of the top kids and they actually held a geek.nerd party for her birthday last year

It's hell being different sometimes. I guess if you are in the top 5-10% you are by definition in the minority regardless of your MBTI type.

 

[Adamastor]

I've never been picked on, but I have to say I am socially incompetent to say the least.

I do agree with this:

For this reason they discourage the child's enthusiasm instead of fostering it. They don't encourage the child to be intelligent and inquisitive or even attempt to help him/her develop a more socially acceptable way of showing their enthusiasm.

I was a really curious child, but when I asked things people simply gave me most of the time an unsatisfactory answer or worse they gave me an answer that, at the time, I couldn't tell if it was correct/satisfactory or not till later on I would face the consequences of relying on this answer.

Additionally (and I think this happens with a great deal of INTPs), every time I would expose my point of view (with "passion" I would say) my peers would get "scaried", rather intimidated, not because I was exposing my thoughts to my self and the teacher only (I would never do this), but I think that what scared the most was the fact that I would explain in the simplest way to them understand AND ask their opinion on the subject.

I don't know, I kinda of got the impression that answering a question hurt them, they simply are incapable of saying anything and, then, would not answer at all.

So I learned to restrain myself. Keep my thoughts to myself. I still do this, but now in highschool there are a few opportunities where I try exposing what is in my head and, fortunately, sometimes I can get in a good discussion with a few of my colleagues.

This might sound arrogant, but this is the impression I still have in highschool

I see myself as an unpolished, unrefined gem.

This was discussed in another thread. I feel like I wasted my time or couldn't develop to the fullest my competences.

Um. The nice, good student in my society usually gets respect. This doesn't translate into popularity, but they're not mocked. (Unless they act like teachers' pet). I've met good students who were terrifically popular.

The super geeky kid with their heads in the clouds does get ostracized. Again, not really picked on, but it's not a pleasant experience. (This was me, if you can't guess )

 

[Ermine]

Parents and teachers for whom bullying was something normal in their school days?

I know that perfectly well, but it's still not right.

The thing is there are people who are both intellectual and social.

Which may be part of the reason why socially awkward intellectuals get ridiculed, since hey, look at that guy, he's smart and polished etc. etc., but you're only smart.

Social but totally dumb (by many people's standards) people get ridiculed as well. Bimbos, etc.

That's what I said. In retrospect I was a little incoherent...

 

[Invoke Ninja's True Power]

The one value I wish had been taught to me as a kid was self-defense. I grew up thinking you just had to bend over and take it in the ass and have no choice in the matter(figuratively speaking) I could be 10 years ahead of where I am now instead of being 10 years behind where I should be. I doubt it will ever happen but if I have a kid I will definitely teach him/her to take absolutely no shit from anybody. I honestly would care less if they got in trouble in school, if the principle or schoolboard wanted to talk to me about my kid's behavior I would explain to them its people like you that make this educational system a joke. Maybe this is a self-centered attitude I would be living out through my kid but teaching blind obedience is not in my nature to do. Maybe its something that was of value to my parents but not me. Then again I suppose it would depend on what my partner's attitude is that would mater. Again, I highly doubt I will ever have offspring as I don't think I could subject a child to the level of bullshit that goes on in this piece of crap society. Not to mention finding a partner that could put up with my radical beliefs. Probably this type of thinking combined with the lack of thinking of the baby-spitters(those that have the kids without concern of how they will raise or take care of them, or the ones that have kids just to collect a welfare check, or those just stupid enough to have all sorts of sex without birth control/lack of proper knowledge of how to use such devices) that causes the level of social imbalance that is present today. The stupid ones breed, the smart ones are smart enough to not contribute to overpopulation. There should be some kind of license people should have to get to prove they are fit to be a parent, all others should have to get mandatory abortions or give up for adoption.

 

[fullerene]

^^please don't. I've only ever started one physical fight in my life, and it was for a kid who was a complete asshole. I ended up getting beat up a little bit (my parents rushed me to the emergency room because my breathing wasn't regular, and kept "skipping" in the middle of breaths... but by the time I actually got through the wait at the ER, I was breathing normally, and the x-rays showed no broken bones, so it wasn't too serious. I don't feel bad, because the kid had 40 lbs and 2 years--in middle school--on me), but I found out later that the main reason the kid was being such an asshole was because he was getting picked on in elementary school, and his dad was constantly pushing him not to take crap from anyone, stand up for himself, etc.

I do understand where you're coming from with that, but you can do a whole lot of damage encouraging a peaceful/nerdy/something kid not to take crap from anybody. It's much better if you can tell him not to derive self-esteem from how other people think of him (by example, since I don't think anything else works)... then it won't be such a big deal.


When I was in elementary school, I actually used to bang my head against things (lightly enough that it didn't hurt too badly, but enough to hurt a bit) because I heard that every time you bump your head, you lose a dozen or so brain cells, and that they don't regenerate (I know... one of the myths covered by AI's profile right now, haha). A strong sense of values, things you find worth living for that don't include how much other people appreciate you, would go quite a long way in making you feel less shitty if/when they ostracize you for things like intelligence or nerdiness.

 

[Invoke Ninja's True Power]

I would of course value intellect over physical brutality. There are certain ways one can present themself as being self-defensive/defiant without being physically responsive. Its not nice to feel like a marshmallow being run over by a steamroller.

besides, its not about how others appreciate, or where self-esteem is derived from. its about not being completely submissive to everything, thinking for oneself. I never thought for myself until I was almost out of high school. I am 26 and still struggle with the real world because of my submissive nature as a male. That was my parents' solution to everything, just submit to whatever the demands are without question. I'm not saying bash someone's face in if they disagree with you, just that if you are backed into a corner, do something about it. I know I'm not explaining this very well, and not that I'm all religious or anything but I use Jesus as an example, he did things that things non-violently and didn't take any crap in a sense, never yielding to what others wanted him to do. That type of mentality. I wish more Christians were like the god they worship so reverently - to them it seems like its just a story, a myth, something that gets taken out of context and used to make people too complacent with things that are unacceptable. If they really took from the examples a lot more questioning would be going on within the church and within society.

edit: found a couple of great tropes
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/JesusWasWayCool

 

[Cavallier]

Its not nice to feel like a marshmallow being run over by a steamroller.

Squish! For some reason this statement made me happy.

Moving on, the only fights I ever got into had nothing to do with me being bulled but with someone else being bullied. If I got bullied I just lived with it or deflected it but if I saw someone else getting bullied I'd snap. My parents would get called into the principle's office and I'd end up explaining that little Poo Head #1 thought it was funny to hit Traumatized Girl #2 and make her cry so I frickitty beat the crap out of him. The principle asked once why I didn't just call the teacher when I saw Poo Head beating people up. I told him flat out that I felt like the bully needed to know what it felt like to get hit so he would maybe think about that before hitting people.

...in retrospect I suspect I misunderstood the nature of bullying but at the time I felt completely validated by my own logic.

 

[Inappropriate Behavior]

I went from being the runt of my class (7th grade) to being the biggest kid in my class. Size matters! I also lifted weights 4 times a week back then so no one bullied me any more while I did take some bullying in elemetary and middle school. Fighting back helped some. It at least established how far I could be pushed.

It's impossible (and unreasonable to expect) for a kid to understand the psychology of why a kid might bully others. The adults however should understand the various reasons why and take measures to stop it. Unfortunately that rarely happens so the cycles continue.

 

[Waterstiller]

Sometimes I wonder how things would have been if I didn't have to deal with the bullying. Or that damned SJ teacher who quite literally killed any interest in school. I went from being the best student from 1st to 4th but 5th was just overwhelmingly bad and I got C's from then on. I didn't do any homework at home, and got by for the most part on acing tests.

When I was in community college my dad would repeatedly make fun of me for going to school, saying that the whole thing was stupid. Neither of my parents graduated high school and I think it's a miracle I have my BA.


The whole structure of schooling is completely warped. Even if there weren't bullies I still probably would have mentally checked out due to the way I was taught.

Something I've been wanting to purchase/read for awhile is The Teenage Liberation Handbook. Which seems perfect for younger INTPs.

 

[Berkeley]

So I was one of the lucky INTP's I guess. I have always been a very good student (actually that's a lie, but I have always been very bright). But I have also always been on the popular end of the spectrum. Throughout school, girls have always found me attractive, but I was always very shy. I was the type of person who could easily go and hang out with the popular kids at lunch, or just stay with my group of less popular friends (which I did throughout most of the end of my high school years). I am extremely laid back, and I don't think I have ever had an enemy my entire life.

I think the thing with me is, my family always taught me to be polite. So I am a very polite, nice person. I have been told twice that I am the nicest person [my two friends] ever met. I have also been told that I am the smartest person [another friend] has ever met. So it's because I am so laid back (and I would consider myself generally good looking) that I have never really had trouble with popularity despite my reputation for being a bit geeky (I have also been told that geeks are hot, a girl referring to me).

 

[RubberDucky451]

As a guy i find intelligence very attractive, keep reading those books ladies

Yes, social pressures and bullying don't make sense. I think everything has already been said.

 

[Sapphire Harp]

It's interesting to realize how different things can be from what I've had... Mostly, I've been at public schools - I'm assuming that's the same as the rest of you. My high school experience was very different since International Baccalaureate was available to me.

Granted, it had a very high cost of time and stress, but it did remove me from the normal populace of the high school. People who were anti-intellectual suffered in those conditions and inevitably dropped out. By the end, I think about there were about 70-100 IB students left in our graduating class of 700-900 students? It wasn't great conditions, even so, but it was a pretty good environment for me... There still was mocking because I was an easy target - but it pales in comparison to the feelings I sense from the rest of you...

When I think about middle school, these kind of bullyings start making more sense... I can see where the hurt and suffering comes from. I remember one time in school, I was lost in my head thinking about whatever... something really amusing came to me and it definitely showed in my expression as I stare off into space... then I hear, "What the hell are you smiling for, fatty?"

I probably could have suffered a lot more when I was in unfiltered public school... but the simple truth of it was I hard a hard time paying attention to the other students at all, really. I focus intently and was definitely engaging the topics at hand... Other students simply... weren't there. The interaction was the teacher explaining, me understanding... no one else was involved.

I don't imagine I was a teacher's pet - I hardly contributed back except in written form... but I know there were moments I incidentally degraded the entirety of the class around me... the one I remember clearly was completely by accident.

I can't recall what it was, but we had a writing freeform assignment and I happened to watch a documentary on the printing of money... so I wrote an argument that we were definitely in the "information age" because the danger of secrets (like the counterfeiting protections) getting out was far greater than any material damage that could happen...

In class, I discover we're reading these things out loud to the rest of the class... And I'm getting the feeling that I've written something which was definitely "not for public consumption." So my turn comes and I tell the teacher I'm willing to fail it in order to not read it. Happily she offers to allow a presentation to just herself on the lunch hour... Unfortunately, I happened to offer explanation in that I "didn't think the rest of the class could understand it..." Ooops. I didn't even believe what I said, but those were the words that came out! (Oh, the things you say when you're grasping for an excuse...)

Although, on reflection, could very many of them have appreciated what I had written there? Maybe a two or three, I'd guess... I can hardly remember anyone from middle school... The only ones I can recall were in (*surprise*) an advanced english literature course I wound up in, reading Slaughterhouse Five and things like that... (Possibly the only class to ever feature a lecture on WWII accompanied by an interpretive dance by one of the students... )

* * * * *
​

I seem to have completely left the "geeks are sexy" subject matter behind... Honestly, we all know intelligence can be... but it definitely requires a place and a time it can be openly expressed and appreciated! (As if anyone else needed a reminder why this forum beckons so...)

Personally, my experience of this forum is pretty cerebral and discarnate... but it makes me wonder... anyone willing to 'fess up they have swooning moments of experiencing "sexy-intelligent" revelations (sexyntellgent?) from other people/users?

* * * * *
​

I can't believe people sometimes. What parent or teacher in their right mind would do nothing and assume bullying is normal for ANYTHING?!

I just wonder why the antagonism is focused on guys though. I'm definitely a nerd, and while I'm not popular by any stretch, I was never ridiculed either. Well, if they did by way of ostracizing, I could have cared less, I guess. I didn't bother with the anti-intellectual types anyway.

I remember a few articles I read a while ago about the different socializations boys and girls receive at school... given quite subconsciously by their teachers. The example was how a teacher responded differently to a little boy being loud and obnoxious, as opposed to a little girl being loud and obnoxious... It didn't sound like any prejudice was at work, but the teacher came down harder on the girl than the boy (or maybe just more effectively...)

A girl yelling and being obnoxious was something much stranger from the teacher's experience and she reacted more directly to the put the girl in line. The study noted the boy was carrying on again after a while, but the girl definitely learned to be quiet...

It was in women's studies, so obviously it was aiming to show how girls are subconsciously denied certain allowances given to boys... simply because that is what teachers are accustomed to. I can see the same sort of thing happening in classrooms today... This kind of ostracization is familiar / socially acceptable, so it doesn't set off alarms in the same way that a display of sexism or racism by students might...
​

Essentially, this is the cultural norm in the United States. If only 15 or so percent of the population is NT and desires to put learning before social acceptance, they will always be the underdog and not valued as highly as the majority.

You know... I wonder if those numbers can be used to suggest that about 15% of social events are therefore geared towards the things an NT would typically enjoy. There definitely are public events out there that simply feel right to me when I've dropped in on them... They just take a bit of searching to find.
​

Anywhere where people are outright killed or tortured for expressing their viewpoints there is no freedom of speech. Now, that does not mean I think we don't have suppression of speech. I think that more than anything in our society if an idea does not seem marketable then it does not get much attention...

Seems like we have the ostracization of speech, more than suppression, to me...

* * * * *
​

P.S. If anyone actually read it all, you're the wonderful few who discovered that I definitely lost it in the middle...
​

 

[Artifice Orisit]

Lacking anything overly intelligent to say, I'm just going to post this:
YouTube - Lemon Demon - Geeks in Love

The ability to be shamelessly weird is true confidence, which is a positive attribute for anyone to have, and can be very sexy on occasion.
Intellectual superiority isn't sexy, but having curiosity and an open mind is.

Lastly, I have to admit the most beautiful girl I've ever seen was at a library; and by beautiful I don't mean "nice body in tight jeans & a tank top" sexy, or "fashion model" pretty, I mean classically beautiful, someone that if described objectively sounds quite plain, but the overall effect is picturesque. It's hard to explain... I guess like how freckles can look good, a slight imperfection that instead serves to accentuate the face's overall beauty; in this case a girl that was plain, but in just the right way.
So yeah, my point is the geeky type aren’t always the ugly little weird people, that's just a stereotype, in truth most "geeks" look just like everybody else... well perhaps maybe not like the bogans* most people tend to be.

1*: A name for suburb-living Australians, considered an unintelligent underclass, teens who go out at night to get drunk at local parks are a perfect example, it's basically another name for "feral" or "degenerate", although not exclusively used for teens.

 

[Kidege]

(Possibly the only class to ever feature a lecture on WWII accompanied by an interpretive dance by one of the students... )

I would have loved to see that.

 

[Cavallier]

@SH: I did read it all! Memory lane trips are fun...and not so fun depending on the content. Also, frequently instructive.

The comments so far are leading me to think that bullying is as much a product of the smaller social world of the school itself as it is the wider country as a whole. Also, teachers play a big role...much to big a role sometimes.

 

[walfin]

That's what I said. In retrospect I was a little incoherent...

You're right. Sorry. No, you weren't incoherent, I just didn't read carefully enough.

I remember a few articles I read a while ago about the different socializations boys and girls receive at school... given quite subconsciously by their teachers.

Probably a worldwide phenomenon, and it damages both genders.

Though I can't say I've had much experience. I was in all male schools from age 9 - 15. That probably contributed even more to my social awkwardness today.

I think all female/all male environments tend to be more damaging to geeks. Although it allows them to concentrate, it doesn't do anything for social development.

 

[shoeless]

let me preface this by saying i only read about the first two pages of this thread.

anyway, i really don't think it's a matter of discouraging the pursuit of academic interests, or whatever. i mean, i personally have never been ridiculed for being smart. i honestly think it's an introversion vs. extroversion thing.

the ridicule i have endured has always been a result of me being just too damn awkward. the friendly, extroverted people, whether they're smart or jock-y or whatever, have always been praised, while the awkward, seemingly self-absorbed introverted people always get screwed.

in my last high school (9th & 10th grade) i was in all higher-academic classes, and people were just as competitive in their academics as they were in athletics or even in the fucking marching band. the smartest kids were somehow the most popular, the less smart kids were more or less ignored, and that was because, for whatever reason, the extroverted kids were smarter. maybe it was because they were more inclined to ask for help when they didn't understand something, i dunno. but this bred a very elitist environment, and i'm so, so glad to be out of that. (edit: i should mention that this academic competition was probably a result of being in a community where most of the "smart kids" parents were doctors who wanted their babies to be doctors too)

it could be argued that academic brightness =/= intellect. that's probably true. but if we're talking "nerds" & "geeks" then we're talking academics, and that's basically that.

however, i DO think that "intellectuals" (ie - people with an intelligence that extends beyond being good at math, like, more of an understanding of the issues/the ability to think for themselves/etc) get the short end of the societal stick, if they ever put their views out there. it's hard to find other people to connect to, and if you present your ideas to somebody who just doesn't get it, you look like an elitist dick. but i think that's something almost entirely outside the school system.

also, for the record, i think (introverted) nerds are freakin' adorable.

 

[Cavallier]

however, i DO think that "intellectuals" (ie - people with an intelligence that extends beyond being good at math, like, more of an understanding of the issues/the ability to think for themselves/etc) get the short end of the societal stick, if they ever put their views out there. it's hard to find other people to connect to, and if you present your ideas to somebody who just doesn't get it, you look like an elitist dick. but i think that's something almost entirely outside the school system.

also, for the record, i think (introverted) nerds are freakin' adorable.

Introverted nerds are adorable...as long as they don't smell bad. Sorry I keep harping on the smelling bad/bathing thing. I've had to deal with a lot of smelly teenagers lately and it's killing my nose.

Though I did not really get picked on in school much I do have trouble now presenting my ideas to people as you say. I sometimes try to explain an idea or thought I've been working on and the person I explain it too just drools into their lap. It's not as if I'm trying to explain string theory here! Also, it's not as if I'm just dropping my ideas on people with no follow up like some crazy person on the street. For example: I find someone who really likes movies, watches them avidly, and over a beer at the pub I try to tell them about a fun theory I have about a movie they've seen and they can't follow or take the initiative to take it further. I end up just sipping my beer and discussing whatever they want about movies (Like eeewww! Alien guts!) and I don't get a word of original thought in edgewise.

Sometimes I get really lucky and I find somebody introspective enough that I can give them my ideas and we have fun. Most of my friends are made up of people like this since it does get old being rejected or perceived as snobby when that really was not my intention.

 

[Trebuchet]

I think all female/all male environments tend to be more damaging to geeks. Although it allows them to concentrate, it doesn't do anything for social development.

That's an interesting point. I didn't have an all-girl school environment, and generally got along with the boys better. However, I have worked in an all-female office, and I despise single-gender environments. Nastiness goes up and critical thinking fails altogether.

With all women (I obviously never experienced all men), there are sexual comments on male coworkers, endless griping about husbands/boyfriends, cliques that look like they belong in junior high school, and ostracism of the geeks (by which I mean me). Once even one man is present, all of this stops. My husband reports similar phenomena in all male environments.

I think it is more damaging to geeks, yes. At the very least, I was the only one who was bothered by the behaviors that manifested.

 

[Invoke Ninja's True Power]

I am male and I get a lot more pissed off in an all male environment, its nice to not deal with females once in awhile but overall a one-gender environment sucks. I'm not homosexual and I view the preference of one's own gender as a representation of that. It is easier to get along/make friends with my own gender quicker though.

 

[Sapphire Harp]

The effect of single gendered environments falling to the lowest common denominator of behavior isn't something I get to see... I don't really hang out in large groups, but whenever it's two or three guys - I find I usually end up short-changing that sort of behavior... Whatever kind of banter they're looking for from me to make it feel accepted they just don't get, so it doesn't last... I think the kind of effect I bring is pretty odd / rare though...

Sounds pretty base to me, honestly.

* * * * *
​

I was just on CNN and I saw an article titled "Dragon*Con brings out enthusiasts' inner geek". I don't really know how I'd read this treatment of geek subculture... It's pretty neutral altogether, mostly giving a "well, they're really into it feel...", but I just don't know... ...Extracts:

*
​

The whole thing is a bit of a shock to college football fans in town for the season-opening game between Alabama and Virginia Tech, one of whom called it a "freak show." But those aliens grow on you after a while.

"At first I thought it was really strange," Hokies fan Emily Nardone of Ashburn, Virginia, said. "But now I see everybody's having so much fun. And I enjoy looking at the freaks."

One Dragon*Con "freak" getting a lot of looks was Karen Lee of Cullman, Alabama. She was dressed a dramatic, cleavage-baring winged costume inspired by "Dawn" comic book artist Joseph Michael Linsner.
​

*
​

But it seems there's a certain element of snobbery in Steampunk. A crew of Steampunk pirates entered the room, decked out in their tricorn hats and eye patches. Teague was not impressed.

"Where's your molecular destabilizer?" she sniffed.
​

*
​

MARTA's central Five Points station was peopled Saturday morning with anime heroines, a wizardess with green lipstick and an incongruous ladybug who appeared to be about 8 years old -- all mingling with football fans, a few of whom were in pretty outlandish getups themselves.

There were no incidents, however, as intergalactic military police were on hand everywhere to maintain order.
​

 

[Invoke Ninja's True Power]

I wish I had the motivation to make myself a costume for a con or even halloween. I usually just get lazy every year and go as a ninja(any t-shirt can be converted to a ninja mask, preferably black)

 

[mm1991]

And that is why I'll be homeschooling my kids, if I ever have any.
I know that if I don't take their education into my own hands, their love of learning (and their souls) will be lost forever in the schooling system.

 

[Cogwulf]

I wish I had the motivation to make myself a costume for a con or even halloween. I usually just get lazy every year and go as a ninja(any t-shirt can be converted to a ninja mask, preferably black)

I had an idea for a really great werewolf mask, with a moving jaw and real fur and stuff. But I'm sure that if I ever make it I'd end up not going to any Halloween parties

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

School was a very interesting experience. For the six years of school I consumed my time by staring outside of the window. The seventh grade a development occurred, the kids in the grade thought it would be amusing to bully someone to the point that the person commits suicide. For some strange reason they chose me of all people (the odd kid that stared out the window all day). Perhaps, they chose to do so due to the fact I was not engaging in their hierarchy. I took the crap for a year until my family moved cities.

The fist day of the new grade in a new school I was beaten badly to the point I was in hospital. I guess commenting on a group of guys titillation behavior was not such a good idea.

Out of hospital and back to school a person made a comment to me that the same circumstance would repeat itself. Necessity is key. This person was sitting one row in front with his back turned to me. I stood on my desk. My heel went driving down into the back of his head. His face smashed against the table and the once protruding nose flattened. I calmly sat back down in previous position. When people were trying to figure out what happened to him I explained that he was trying to knock himself out on the desk for fun. It was literally the first time I did not consciously think about the consequences of my actions.

Thus the era of emotionally and physically abusing distasteful students, black mailing teachers and principles, vandalizing people's private property and other aberrant activities began. The was a mandate created by the environment that I did not choose. Eventually a group of followers formed around me. People tend to flock to dominant personalities, even if they are pseudo.

There was a general scenario that was enacted when an individual and or group tried to interfere with an individual of my group or my group. First was a notice of understanding and intent. Obviously they dumbfounded by this notion. We would just end up kidnapping people for a few hours.

After the first 2 years of high school I managed to change the culture of the school to one of more benefit to me. Sadly, when I left the school the culture reverted.




Now I have scholarship with a university and I am studying a bachelor of engineering.

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

Once society realizes that geeks are obviously going to earn more money and hence, accumulate more resources the mantra of abusing this sector will dissipate. Or we all could just gain power and start sterilizing the distasteful.