free energy devices

[joal0503]

i dont know much about these things at all...

now obviously i read something like

"There is something lamentable, degrading, and almost insane in pursuing the visionary schemes of past ages with dogged determination, in paths of learning which have been investigated by superior minds, and with which such adventurous persons are totally unacquainted. The history of Perpetual Motion is a history of the fool-hardiness of either half-learned, or totally ignorant persons."

Henry Dircks (1861)

and it makes sense...

but then i see

http://www.free-energy-devices.com/

which essentially is a lay mans catalogue of a bunch of devices that supposedly operate, harness, use, free energy...

so for example, specifically looking at Howard R. Johnson's Permanent Magnet Motor US PAT 4,154,131

http://www.google.com/patents/US4151431

The invention is directed to the method of utilizing the unpaired electron spins in ferro magnetic and other materials as a source of magnetic fields for producing power without any electron flow as occurs in normal conductors, and to permanent magnet motors for utilizing this method to produce a power source. In the practice of the invention the unpaired electron spins occurring within permanent magnets are utilized to produce a motive power source solely through the superconducting characteristics of a permanent magnet and the magnetic flux created by the magnets are controlled and concentrated to orient the magnetic forces generated in such a manner to do useful continuous work, such as the displacement of a rotor with respect to a stator. The timing and orientation of magnetic forces at the rotor and stator components produced by permanent magnets to produce a motor is accomplished with the proper geometrical relationship of these components.

and along with that if yo ucheck the link, theres a lot of data and information i simply dont understand...

now, is this just the case of completely falsified works? misunderstandings? device doesnt actually work? or do these devices actually operate and work under the 'free energy device' nonsense?

 

[SpaceYeti]

That web-site is misconstruing the idea of "perpetual motion" machines. He states that solar panels give us more energy than we put in, because we do not put solar energy into them... but the actual definition of a perpetual motion machine is a machine which does not take on energy from outside, and continues to function indefinitely. Just because we don't put the sunlight into solar panels ourselves, it doesn't mean the solar energy is somehow not an outside source of energy.

Like I said, a perpetual motion machine is a device which continues to operate without taking any energy on from outside of itself, and continues to function forever. We know such a device cannot be made, because usable energy is used up, generally in the form of friction heat. Entropy makes perpetual motion impossible.

In his introduction, he compares conservation of mass/energy to pouring out a cup of water. He then says that's not how reality works, and says to put the cup under a faucet, and it will have more water... well, any machine that uses an outside source of energy is automatically not a perpetual motion machine, so this sight is obvious not about true "free energy". Perhaps it's about cheap energy, but not "free", in the classical, mechanistic sense.

 

[Nick]

They're nothing but bs.
I have a free energy device I watch every day

 

[joal0503]

That web-site is misconstruing the idea of "perpetual motion" machines. He states that solar panels give us more energy than we put in, because we do not put solar energy into them... but the actual definition of a perpetual motion machine is a machine which does not take on energy from outside, and continues to function indefinitely. Just because we don't put the sunlight into solar panels ourselves, it doesn't mean the solar energy is somehow not an outside source of energy.

Like I said, a perpetual motion machine is a device which continues to operate without taking any energy on from outside of itself, and continues to function forever. We know such a device cannot be made, because usable energy is used up, generally in the form of friction heat. Entropy makes perpetual motion impossible.

In his introduction, he compares conservation of mass/energy to pouring out a cup of water. He then says that's not how reality works, and says to put the cup under a faucet, and it will have more water... well, any machine that uses an outside source of energy is automatically not a perpetual motion machine, so this sight is obvious not about true "free energy". Perhaps it's about cheap energy, but not "free", in the classical, mechanistic sense.

right right...i managed to pick up on his nonsense just from the appearance of that page...bad link i suppose...but did you get a chance to check out the patent details? thats what id be more interested in hearing more about...

Claims
1. A permanent magnet motor comprising, in combination, a stator track defining a track direction and having first and second sides and composed of a plurality of track permanent magnets each having first and second poles of opposite polarity, said magnets being disposed in side-by-side relationship having a spacing between adjacent magnets and like poles defining said track sides, an elongated armature permanent magnet located on one of said track sides for relative movement thereto and in spaced relationship to said track side wherein an air gap exists between said armature magnet and said track magnets, said armature magnet having first and second poles of opposite polarity located at the opposite ends of said armature magnet defining the length thereof, the length of said armature magnet being disposed in a direction in general alignment with the direction of said track, the spacing of said armature magnet poles from said track associated side and the length of said armature magnet as related to the width and spacing of said track magnets in the direction of said track being such as to impose a continuous force on said armature magnet in said general direction of said track.

2. In a permanent magnet motor as in claim 1 wherein the spacing between said poles of said armature magnet and the adjacent stator track side are substantially equal.

3. In a permanent magnet motor as in claim 1 wherein the spacing between adjacent track magnets varies.

4. In a permanent magnet motor as in claim 1 wherein a plurality of armature magnets are disposed on a common side of said stator track, said armature magnets being mechanically interconnected.

5. In a permanent magnet motor as in claim 4 wherein said armature magnets are staggered with respect to each other in the direction of said track.

6. In a permanent magnet motor as in claim 1 wherein magnetic field concentrating means are associated with said track magnets.

7. In a permanent magnet motor as in claim 6 wherein said field concentrating means comprises a sheet of magnetic material of high magnetic field permeability engaging side and pole of said track magnets opposite to that side and pole disposed toward said armature magnet.

8. In a permanent magnet motor as in claim 1 wherein said armature magnet is of an arcuate configuration in its longitudinal direction bowed toward said track, said said armature magnet having ends shaped to concentrate the magnetic field at said ends.

9. In a permanent magnet motor as in claim 1 wherein said stator track is of a generally linear configuration, and means supporting said armature magnet relative to said track for generally linear movement of said armature magnet.

10. In a permanent magnet motor as in claim 1 wherein said stator track magnets define a circle having an axis, an armature rotatably mounted with respect to said track and concentric and coaxial thereto, said armature magnet being mounted upon said armature.

11. In a permanent magnet motor as in claim 10, means axially adjusting said armature relative to said track whereby the axial relationship of said armature magnet and said stator magnets may be varied to adjust the rate of rotation of said armature.

12. In a permanent magnet motor as in claim 10 wherein a plurality of armature magnets are mounted on said armature.

13. In a permanent magnet motor as in claim 12 wherein said armature magnets are circumferentially nonuniformily spaced on said armature.

14. A permanent magnet motor comprising, in combination, a stator comprising a plurality of circumferentially spaced stator permanent magnets having poles of opposite polarity, said magnets being arranged to substantially define a circle having an axis, the poles of said magnets facing in a radial direction with respect to said axis and poles of the same polarity facing away from said axis and the poles of opposite polarity facing toward said axis, an armature mounted for rotation about said axis and diposed adjacent said stator, at least one armature permanent magnet having poles of opposite polarity mounted on said armature and in radial spaced relationship to said circle of stator magnets, said armature magnet poles extending in the circumferential direction of armature rotation, the spacing of said armature magnet poles from said stator magnets and the circumferential length of said armature magnet and the spacing of said stator magnets being such as to impose a continuing circumferential force on said armature magnet to rotate said armature.

15. In a permanent magnet motor as in claim 14 wherein a plurality of armature magnets are mounted upon said armature.

16. In a permanent magnet motor as in claim 14 wherein said armature magnets are asymmetrically circumferentially spaced on said armature.

17. In a permanent magnet motor as in claim 14 wherein the poles of said armature magnet are shaped to concentrate the magnetic field thereof.

18. In a permanent magnet motor as in claim 14, magnetic field concentrating means associated with said stator magnets concentrating the magnetic fields thereof at the spacings between adjacent stator magnets.

19. In a permanent magnet motor as in claim 18 wherein said magnet field concentrating means comprises an annular ring of high magnetic field permeability material concentric with said axis and in substantial engagement with poles of like polarity of said stator magnets.

20. In a permanent magnet motor as in claim 14 wherein said armature magnet is of an arcuate bowed configuration in the direction of said poles thereof defining a concave side and a convex side, said concave side being disposed toward said axis, and said poles of said armature magnet being shaped to concentrate the magnetic field between said poles thereof.

21. In a permanent magnet motor as in claim 14, means for axially displacing said stator and armature relative to each other to adjust the axial alignment of said stator and armature magnets.

22. The method of producing a unidirectional motive force by permanent magnets using a plurality of spaced stator permanent magnets having opposite polarity poles defining a track having a predetermined direction, and an armature magnet having a length defined by poles of opposite polarity movably mounted for movement relative to the track in the direction thereof, and of a predetermined length determined by the width and dimensions of said stator magnets comprising forming a magnetic field track by said stator magnets having a magnetic field of common polarity interrupted at spaced locations in a direction transverse to the direction of said magnetic field track by magnetic fields created by magnetic lines of force existing between the poles of the stator magnets and positioning the armature magnet in spaced relation to said magnetic field track longitudinally related to the direction of the magnetic field track such a distance that the repulsion and attraction forces imposed on the armature magnet by said magnetic field track imposes a continuing unidirectional force on the armature magnet in the direction of the magnetic field track.

23. The method of producing a unidirectional motive force as in claim 22 including concentrating the magnetic fields created by magnetic lines of force between the poles of the stator magnets.

24. The method of producing a unidirectional motive force as in claim 22 including concentrating the magnetic field existing between the poles of the armature magnet.

25. The method of producing a unidirectional motive force as in claim 22 including concentrating the magnetic fields created by magnetic lines of force between the poles of the stator magnets and concentrating the magnetic field existing between the poles of the armature magnet.

26. The method of producing a motive force by permanent magnets wherein the unpaired electron spinning particles existing within a permanent magnet are utilized for producing a motive force comprising forming a stator magnetic field track by means of at least one permanent magnet, producing an armature magnetic field by means of a permament magnet and shaping and locating said magnetic fields in such a manner as to produce relative continuous unidirectional motion between said stator and armature field producing magnets.

27. The method of producing a motive force by permanent magnets as in claim 26 wherein said stator magnetic field is substantially of a single polarity.

28. The method of producing a motive force by permanent magnets as in claim 26 including concentrating the magnetic field of said stator field track and armature magnetic field.

^this stuff? goes whooooooooosh right over my head.

 

[SpaceYeti]

He's describing, basically, a circle with magnets at an angle along the interior wall. In the center of the circle is a "track" of other magnets with same poles aligned with the angle of the magnets in the wall. This would have the effect of a constant force on the center track, spinning it.

Except it doesn't. I've actually built one of these before, and it doesn't work. The magnetic fields al along the perimeter and interior cancel out any directional force and simply press the wall outward and the track in. Thus, any motion accomplished is through initial spin. The magnets actually increase friction and, thus, energy loss.

 

[joal0503]

bahahaha alright

free energy devices 0 spaceyeti 1

i guess it wouldnt make any sense if we chose to leave these sorts of devices out of our world, if they actually worked.

 

[SpaceYeti]

Even if the magnets aligned perfectly, thereby reducing the additional friction due to magnetic push down to zero (which I'm pretty sure is impossible), this is basically analogous to thinking a ball could roll up and down an infinite series of equally tall hills if the down slopes were sharper than the up slopes. Consider a magnetic field drawn as lines contoured around the magnet, and they get elongated near the tip, as that's the pole. An object traveling through the field has to travel through the same number of lines towards the magnet as it would be pushed away from it, regardless which direction it approaches from.

Edit; The only way to make this machine work is to find some sort of material to place between magnets on the wall which would cancel out the magnetic field without actually interacting with it... which is contradictory requirements, and cannot happen.

 

[Cognisant]

It's probably impossible but what about some kind of thermal ratchet?

Molecular structure designed in such a way that the motion of the molecules around it cause it to spin, it doesn't just vibrate itself because the ratcheting mechanism prevents it going any way but forwards, so it turns thermal energy back into mechanical energy which could be then harnessed to produce electricity.

 

[Duxwing]

It's probably impossible but what about some kind of thermal ratchet?

Molecular structure designed in such a way that the motion of the molecules around it cause it to spin, it doesn't just vibrate itself because the ratcheting mechanism prevents it going any way but forwards, so it turns thermal energy back into mechanical energy which could be then harnessed to produce electricity.

The problem is that the ratchet mechanism itself is subject to such forces.

-Duxwing

 

[SpaceYeti]

It is technically possible to create a system which recovers some lost resources, but the system itself takes up resources, and the net remains a loss. Also, I've never heard of one that operates on energy from the system. It usually recovers a resource the system is holding, not using.

 

[joal0503]

it doesnt qualify as a free energy device...but its cool nonetheless...

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/01/130110142127.htm

New Material Harvests Energy from Water Vapor

Jan. 10, 2013 — MIT engineers have created a new polymer film that can generate electricity by drawing on a ubiquitous source: water vapor.

 

[Reluctantly]

Theoretically, since energy flows between matter according to the basic axioms behind physics, the idea that a perpetual motion machine could exist has no evidence to support such a claim because it would exist without influencing other objects and without those other objects influencing it; such a thing then wouldn't even be useful to us, even if we could detect it (and how would you propose that we could detect something that has no influence on anything?).

That said, if the idea is to get energy out of it, while not reducing the state of energy of the device, what does that even mean in terms of theoretical physics? A car engine could be considered a perpetual motion machine as long as the fuel never runs out. And if the universe is its own perpetual motion machine, then solar panels, which use light that is thought to be the basic energy behind all reactions, have infinite fuel, and could be thought as free energy devices.

 

[SpaceYeti]

Sadly, the universe is not a perpetual motion machine. Thanks to the same reasons no other can exist, even stars will all eventually die. Indeed, we're alive because our solar system is composed of the materials from a dead star. Our sun is a second generation star. I don't know how many generations are either possible or likely, but it's most certainly finite.