Yours was first. You did not copy Gopher. But Gopher is accountable for this one well before you are. Sorry.
I don't read you green, and even if I'm not opposed to your lynch, I'm certainly opposed to seeing you lynched before Gopher.
And I wasn't talking about last game, even though I think that would be fine since didn't you obs it? But anyway, I was referring specifically to why I withheld my lurking stuff in this game, and later when I withheld the gopher case.
You intuition technique is sloppy, but understandable. It helps you read people given short amounts of time, but it doesn't help you confirm yourself town. Given how much time you've got to contribute to the game, it makes sense. Even if I'd prefer someone with enough time to confirm themselves town. But w/e, it doesn't matter. You're scooting on by fine atm.
You're underestimating RB. He's got good reason to think a Gopher+Hado bussing would be silly. Because it's completely unnecessary. If Goph and I both rolled scum this game was already over. Especially if RB sheeped me. As RB said. And if you think RB's scum... well... you're just too good. You caught the highly unlikely three top player scum team all by yourself. But I'm pretty sure being an actual jedi in this game is cheating.
You've now accused both RB and I of being stupid. And that's making you look stupid. It's simply not the case, and isn't consistent with your case on me, whereby (as always) I'm some mafia mastermind who's deliberately and unnecessarily running around on a razor's edge.
I agree, I'm not an impossible lynch. Not now. I take back that reasoning.
I'm 100% open and honest now. I have to be. So if there's something you've been meaning to ask me, shoot. I have no gameplan with gopher to protect anymore. The game is now who gets lynched between me and gopher (or if the town splits, almost certainly sinny).
I repeat. 100% transparent. I will not avoid questions anymore.
As an aside, why would you drop your case against Gopher if (when) Hado turns out to be red? Have you never heard of the sacrificial lamb in order to fortify a person's position as 'town'?
Lol, you're fucking mafia. 2D thinking? I'm compiling cases and linking together multiple people as scum, meanwhile you're sitting here just tunneling 1 person the entire game - and not only that, it's basically just OMGUS.
Hado votes you, then you go and make an excuse and a 'case' for why he's mafia. You desperately want him out of the game but if you're mafia, it'd make you look terrible to NK him.
But what are the chances that it's Gopher, Sinny, PMJ.
We aren't jedi. We can't make a trip association case without having actually confirmed a mafia yet. Not with Rook and ika having such uncertainty surrounding them. In light of recent events I'm highly suspicious of all three, but I think it would be too much to be right on every count. Call me a pessimist. If we want to flip Sinny or Gopher, we need to limit the scope. Spread ourselves too thin, and we get none.
No, don't say that. You're hurting me in my special place ;_;
Will read / comment later, but I had actually decided to just sit on my vote and not say any more until a conclusion was reached. I didn't know 'tunnelling' was a thing. Really, I don't think it is - I think it's a bullshit argument to hopefully have someone avoid some of the limelight, but equally I'm not a vindictive prick. I've said my piece, and will now cease and desist for a while. Largely because I need to acquire more data, but also because I'm sick of this circular argument.
Lol, you're fucking mafia. 2D thinking? I'm compiling cases and linking together multiple people as scum, meanwhile you're sitting here just tunneling 1 person the entire game - and not only that, it's basically just OMGUS.
Hado votes you, then you go and make an excuse and a 'case' for why he's mafia. You desperately want him out of the game but if you're mafia, it'd make you look terrible to NK him.
Yours was first. You did not copy Gopher. But Gopher is accountable for this one well before you are. Sorry.
I don't read you green, and even if I'm not opposed to your lynch, I'm certainly opposed to seeing you lynched before Gopher.
And I wasn't talking about last game, even though I think that would be fine since didn't you obs it? But anyway, I was referring specifically to why I withheld my lurking stuff in this game, and later when I withheld the gopher case.
You intuition technique is sloppy, but understandable. It helps you read people given short amounts of time, but it doesn't help you confirm yourself town. Given how much time you've got to contribute to the game, it makes sense. Even if I'd prefer someone with enough time to confirm themselves town. But w/e, it doesn't matter. You're scooting on by fine atm.
You're underestimating RB. He's got good reason to think a Gopher+Hado bussing would be silly. Because it's completely unnecessary. If Goph and I both rolled scum this game was already over. Especially if RB sheeped me. As RB said. And if you think RB's scum... well... you're just too good. You caught the highly unlikely three top player scum team all by yourself. But I'm pretty sure being an actual jedi in this game is cheating.
You've now accused both RB and I of being stupid. And that's making you look stupid. It's simply not the case, and isn't consistent with your case on me, whereby (as always) I'm some mafia mastermind who's deliberately and unnecessarily running around on a razor's edge.
I agree, I'm not an impossible lynch. Not now. I take back that reasoning.
I'm 100% open and honest now. I have to be. So if there's something you've been meaning to ask me, shoot. I have no gameplan with gopher to protect anymore. The game is now who gets lynched between me and gopher (or if the town splits, almost certainly sinny).
I repeat. 100% transparent. I will not avoid questions anymore.
I was calling your reasoning (and RB's) potentially stupid; I wasn't making any insinuations about your intellect. That would both be shitty and rather hyporcrtical, given that I'm one of the dumbest shits I know (IQ of approx 132; constant sleep depravation due to two young children; shit education, etc.)
So you can shove that accusation right up your fucking arse
The point of the game is to highlight suspicious activity within other players and elaborate on it. I have done that, but I have also been very transparent in saying that I am quite obviously operating on limited data, and therefore I am chiefly trusting my gut.
Is that any more 'stupid' than drawing out convoluted arguments by splitting hairs? We're all operating on the same data here. Is one approach really any more valid than the other?
It has been claimed that I haven't fostered further conversation, but look back over the last few pages - that could not be further from the truth.
Possibilities:
- You're painting me as inept to hopefully minimise the attention my posts get. A fair tactic.
- From what I've seen, you seem to be in some kind of cahoots with Hado. You have defended him a few times now, and have done so operating on the same amount of information we all have. How many times do I have to make it abundantly clear that at present, nobody knows a damn thing about one another.
Unless they do.
- I think the both of you are too smart to be caught out so easily were you mafia (interacting with one another, I mean). Thus, new theory:
Hado is a vocal town player who has come under questioning because he is so overtly / irritatingly 'pro town', and you're the cop. You have thus defended him (and he you) because you know one another are on the same team. You may have to reluctantly let Hado go as suspicion builds, and that sucks - but cool, you'll find someone else to sidle up to instead.
You're hard to read RB, and that bothers me.
You have made cases. Some good ones, I guess - but you're extremely cool. Measured.
Until it comes to Hado.
I have to ask why. What is it you know that we do not? It's like you want to defend him (you'll even resort to calling people stupid to do so) but there's a sort of heaviness / reluctance to see him hang; but you will if getting the job done necessitates it.
Uhhhhhhhh....wow. OK I am getting ready to leave for work unfortunately. This is a lot to digest. I'm seriously gonna have to read through a few times, my head is spinning. I'll post when I can!
I wish I had the luxury of time to refine my posts. I'm doing that thing where I expect other people to fill in 'the gaps' which I think are pretty obvious, but... neh.
If we end up playing this again, I'm booking two weeks off work
This train was now started by Reluc, and not Gopher.
Honestly, right now, I am convinced that one the 'big three' are mafia. For a player like me, someone new, the constant interplay between the three of them is cluttering up the thread. They launch into complex over-analysis while giving less and less attention to the 'middle of the pack', as Hado stated.
(This has improved recently, but seeing a truce was called, the immediately broken, this level of mistrust as to intentions remains within me unabated)
This state of affairs can not be good for the town, even if all three are green.
Of them, Gopher has been the most sincere and focused more on others.
I may be very very wrong, and Gopher is playing a well constructed ruse.
It is a risk at this point, but I want clarity in this game.
Hado referencing Ika's outing of him as townie (a processional player that had just joined, and is now lurking serially) raised a red flag for me.
Him then stating that Ika is still an 'unknown factor', after stating their support of him, was a contradiction that finally swayed my vote, along with a slew of behaviors that make this thread into a quagmire of confusion.
Possible mafia:
Hado/Redbaron/Gopher
Ika/Sinny/Pmj
Zerkalo, very unlikely though
I am sorry Hado. In this game, I want clarity and I want players who's main goal is to focus firstly on being constructive to the larger whole, with elaborate attacks and obfuscating behavior not taking precedence over the greater good.
I may still change my vote to Ika/Pmj/Sinny if you field a more solid defense. Right now, I feel that your defense is not as fact-based as Reluc's and Gopher's accusations.
Time will tell, but for now,
Vote Hadoblado
I want to remind everyone that Ika is lurking to a great extent. I did hear tell of this being their playstyle, a claim refuted by Ika iirc, but a solid contribution from them at this moment may allay my suspicions.
As a professional player, Ika's judgments on Gopher/Hado/Redbaron would be appreciated.
I just promised 100% transparency. I will no longer keep any secrets.
Compared to me, Gopher is yet to really depart from his meta (other than addressing my aggression). He is not clear. He has not done things.
My statement about ika was not alignment indicative. As a good player he made that read, because it's the obvious read. I think he'd have made it as mafia or as town. Because for players who come from the more developed meta on other sites, the active town is the obvious town. I did not make any claims about his alignment, for, as scum, claiming an active townie as town is just an easy read. I was referencing his skill, not his alignment. I don't see how you could think I was so good as to have posted this much content, while also thinking me so bad that I would slip like that.
I mean, I called his alignment ambiguous at around the same time. Either way, the contradiction you're choosing to interpret this as was fresh in my mind. It wasn't a contradiction because I wasn't trusting his alignment. I was trusting his skill.
Stupid. I've had a lot of interaction with Hado outside the game, and whether or not you want to accept it or not, experience and people's understanding of other people hold relevance in this game.
In fact it's not just relevant, it's like the entire premise of the game. Why do you think Ika, four-year veteran of many games, asked to see our Game 1? For a fucking laugh or something?
Get real already.
PmjPmj said:
Hado is a vocal town player who has come under questioning because he is so overtly / irritatingly 'pro town', and you're the cop
Again, stupid. If you're vanilla town, finding the cop is the opposite of your job. Unless you do it right, power role speculaton only serves the mafia and helps them improve their reads at finding them. It's why I told Reluctantly (nicely) to stfu about it.
Also, even if this wagon looks like a mafia wagon, there's more people on it than there are mafia in the game - which means that there's Town on it, so regardless of who's right or wrong: I'm going against at least some Town right now.
Plus a no-lynch is the worst possible outcome for Town to ever have. And that's not even a debate I'm going to have. If you disagree with it, you're just dumb IRL.
So if my vote comes to either choosing between no-lynch and having a constantly divided Town or lynching one of my Town reads, I have no choice but to go for lynch. It's a no-brainer.
Either way, you can keep your vote leveled at me, but please take it off for now. It still counts for all intents and purposes, but town does not want to lynch until the last 12 hours or so. So they can gather information. Gopher agrees with me on this too (unless he's flipping?).
I'm on the backfoot here. I don't want to be hanged. I want people to ask questions of me. Make hypotheses and test them. Wring me for information. Because seriously, this case is not strong, but you guys are all going along with it even though it's not strong. Think about it, if the case isn't that strong, then why is everyone sheeping me? Why would mafia be so okay with this?
Assume I'm mafia. Why hasn't more happened outside of this case? There's my aggression on Gopher. There's talk of attacking Sinny but realistically she's on the block only if neither me nor gopher are doable. Scum want to distract and confuse. Why are they so okay with one of their most valuable members going down? They were quiet when Happy went down too. I assumed that was a bussing. But if I were scum, us scum would have the option not to have me lynched simply by pushing a new wagon. At the very least, in the scum scenario, I could get someone else lynched with my scum buddies on board, and then I would face the next day's lynch with days and days for them to bus me for reals. That would buy scum an extra NK at the very least, on top of the possibility of me talking my way out of it day three.
This one issue against you has more to do with Ika's behavior, as their support of you is the first thing they added.
This may be the way one plays with experience, but I find the immediate endorsement suspicious.
It may be that, as ika is busy with other games, they only have time for such brief analysis. I saw this repeated with their view on Sinny.
I retract my statement regarding your references of Ika, but right now I am still suspicious of you, Redbaron and Goph.
Of the three, I have decided to vote for you, but as stated above, a more rational defense may still annul my vote.
@Pmj
For me, you are suspicious due to initial lack of contribution.
I know you were busy, and now you are making a solid effort to participate.
My only questions for you:
Who do you suspect the most?
Who do you trust the most?
Redbaron I trust you won't put the nail in unless there's no other options though right? Not until the 11th hour?
Because Gopher is a much better lynch for you than me. Somehow people are trusting him, but there's a decent possibility ika picks up on him when he returns (EXPLICIT STATEMENT OF NON-ALIGNMENT INDICATIVENESS). That'd give us three out of six. I'm starting to lose track of which moderates have shifted against me, but I think that option is real. All this talk of you being happy to lynch me is killing that dream. So please, I'm okay if you're happy to lynch me as a final option, but stop being so apathetic about it. A lot can happen in two days. People are sheeping, and you're the strongest voice I've got on my side, but you're being apathetic and not pushing your actual position, which is gonna get me lynched.
This may just the way my mind works, but I would like a list from you.
It does not have to be ranked, but at least give a comprehensive opinion of who you find the most suspicious and who seems to be have noble intents.
As experienced players, you guys set the tone. If all three of you provide such lists, players like me will find it much simpler to know where you stand and how you view the whole.
If RB and Goph can do this as well, I think the town will greatly benefit.
@Rook
All the same, I'd really appreciate you taking that vote off me for now, just so I don't accidentally die prematurely like last game. It's still you voting for me, the only difference is that there's less instability. Nobody will think you flimsy. Town wants to wring information out of people they think are scum before they die. The more time you have with me the better, regardless of my alignment.
Confirmed mafia:
Gopher
Sinny (kind of - this is wishywashy from me because my green read on her was so strong, but so long as Gopher is red then I can very easily see how day one happened)
Slight town read:
Jennywocky
People who haven't done enough for me to read them properly (understandably) and are thus slightly red:
ika
Rook
PMJ
@Hado: I will be near my computer for quite some time still, and will keep a vigilant watch on votes cast.
I do not like see-sawing on things, my opinion has already been stated regarding a need for clarity regarding your summation of all the players and at least a defense that that addresses both Reluctantly's and Gopher's points made against you regarding previous behaviors.
I may truly be missing something, but for me it seemed as if you were dancing around some of their more valid concerns.
Stupid. I've had a lot of interaction with Hado outside the game, and whether or not you want to accept it or not, experience and people's understanding of other people hold relevance in this game.
In fact it's not just relevant, it's like the entire premise of the game. Why do you think Ika, four-year veteran of many games, asked to see our Game 1? For a fucking laugh or something?
Get real already.
Again, stupid. If you're vanilla town, finding the cop is the opposite of your job. Unless you do it right, power role speculaton only serves the mafia and helps them improve their reads at finding them. It's why I told Reluctantly (nicely) to stfu about it.
Also, even if this wagon looks like a mafia wagon, there's more people on it than there are mafia in the game - which means that there's Town on it, so regardless of who's right or wrong: I'm going against at least some Town right now.
Plus a no-lynch is the worst possible outcome for Town to ever have. And that's not even a debate I'm going to have. If you disagree with it, you're just dumb IRL.
So if my vote comes to either choosing between no-lynch and having a constantly divided Town or lynching one of my Town reads, I have no choice but to go for lynch. It's a no-brainer.
Are you trying to rattle my cage by attacking my intellect, or something? At first it was a fair play / plausible tactic, but now I have to wonder if you're using it to poke me with a stick. Either way, lol.
I thought I may get called out on highlighting the possibility that you may be the cop, but I take the pursuit of truth to a level which probably puts me on some kind of spectrum. That's just me, sorry. I don't really give a shit about the subtleties of the game. If fuckery is going down, I want to know what, why, when and who.
I thought the cop had the ability to 'see' other players. Is this not correct? I'm used to playing TWG, not Mafia. Perhaps I am incorrectly conflating 'seer' and 'cop', in which case I apologise.
No arguments about the no-lynch being a bullshit outcome. I'm a firm proponent of avoiding that scenario, hence my 'suck it and see' approach.
Finally, your first point is essentially all about calling me inept because I don't have as much knowledge of other players. Inane. Also, I don't have the time (or want) to read through another game. I fail to see how that should be a part of another, entirely stand alone game. I'd call that 'additional research' rather than 'essential material'.
Thanks...I will review posts made by Reluctantly and Gopher, just to see whether their accusations are as valid as I think they are. If I find inconsistencies in their arguments, I will voice them and probably annul my vote.
The case is as much to do with the fact that this wagon on you has even been so possible, so early in the day. I've also well and truly emphasized that Gopher is giving nothing but completely null reads, in conjunction with Sinny giving scum-reads and supporting him.
There's no case stronger than voting patterns, and I'm honestly not into casing someone the way you and Gopher have done it. It creates so much confusion and doesn't seem to be any better at convincing people of arguments. If people just disagree with the core reasoning, they aren't going to be convinced by further iterating the same points in a different way.
It just puts people off the game because of the insane amount of content they need to keep up with. I've been here on and off for the last 8 hours myself, have posted my cases and interacted a lot. I'm getting exhausted, plus I want others to chime in.
But noo Sinnys a fucking retard innit, and unless she's our for someone's blood, something up. Fucking idiots. I am trying not to be a rebel without a cause.
that's not the case at all....Nobody thinks ure a retard or have to play like a retard...It's just that u adjusted your play multiple times throughout the game, and always after people point something out about your play
so you suspect both gopher and hado right? That means you won't vote for either?
Ika really needs to get here and comment on what's been happening so far
Urakro is confirmed town because he's being experimental. Mafia are a lot less explorative because they have certainty on their side. He's constantly trying things to figure stuff out. He draws some silly conclusions sometimes, but he's also going to learn quickly this way. He reminds me of my approach to the game when I first played, before I took up an aggressive style. I faffed about with theory constantly trying to do clever things. Often thinking more about models that could apply to multiple games that stuff that could be used specifically for the one I was playing at the time. He's untethered.
Having played scum yourself, and now being town, you can see how much more difficult it is to find ways of finding reads. As scum you can just sit back, because you're not really trying to catch scum. As town, without having established a framework for understanding, your mind is set loose. This caused you understandable frustration, and your methods were a little more direct. This is urakro's first game and he hasn't even got the framework you've built from actually playing as mafia. He's cast adrift, and it's creativity that's emerging. Possibilities.
His negative response to his failings is also understandable, and falls within what I'd expect for someone that was actually trying and failing. Not to mention that he's had a large contribution, while not really slipping scum at all, which I would not expect for someone's first game.
There's no particular happening that confirmed him town, but he's been pretty green from the beginning, and when I looked at all the things he's done today to confirm earlier, he came up green again.
I'm not saying he's town 100%. But I'd be very impressed if he were mafia. And basically on principle, I ignore that possibility, because it's wifom land. If I assume every noobie's a genius mafia I never get to confirm anyone town. Better to assume them falling within more believable levels of ability. I've met people who were good right off the bat, but they were coached the living shit out of. RB is about as good as I expect anyone to be given low level of experience.
@Sinny
When the game's over check my QT. There's nice things I've said about you kind of.
@RB
Nobody expects that level of case. Mine was wordy because of the subtlety of the read, but also because I wasn't actually trying to lynch gopher at the time. I was trying to make it look like we were both at each others throats so that neither of us would be NKed. I thought for a while that Gopher was doing the same thing, but if he wasn't, his case/defense was just fluffy bullshit consistent with his meta. To be clear I did suspect Gopher, but I wasn't certain, and I wanted more time to cement my read. And here we are.
Your case before was of a much more reasonable size I think, though I thought it didn't check out because iirc it was a day one association case.
Finally, your first point is essentially all about calling me inept because I don't have as much knowledge of other players. Inane. Also, I don't have the time (or want) to read through another game. I fail to see how that should be a part of another, entirely stand alone game. I'd call that 'additional research' rather than 'essential material'.
I never called you inept, and of course you can make reads in a particular game without reading another game - your reads are just going to be worse overall. It's not the result, it's the process.
I've played a game, I know Hado, I've read through that game. I read things in that context. You're reading it in the one tiny little context that is this particular game, and misreading as a result.
But...you self-identify as INTJ and you've said multiple stupid things in a row with a justification that basically boils down to, "that's just me". It's a shitty, self-serving justification but it's also one that I can't see changing, based on the way you've approached this game so far.
I think it's clear who I suspect the most. Recent events have me re-thinking things slightly, but ultimately I'd still lynch Hado. I'm currently without any real idea as to who is who, for obvious reasons. Hypothetically, Hado hangs and he turns out to be mafia. I can then look toward the people trying to off him as town, and those trying to defend him as potentially questionable, and vice versa if he's town.
Enough has transpired now that a sensible hanging should give enough of a clue as to where I need to point my attention. Hanging someone who has been in the limelight will yield the most data. Therefore, regardless of whether my view changes at some point or another, I'll probably still vote Hado. Unless a reasonable alternative presents itself, I think at the very least he'd be a good punt as a sacrificial lamb.
If you're going to make an omelette...
As for who I trust: nobody. Why would I? Unless I'm identified as town through some mystical-type special role bollocks and subsequently approached by the 'seer', I shan't be trusting anyone.
I find RB hard to read, but increasingly grating.
Gopher talks a lot, which could well be a smokescreen.
Sinny is a chill MF, period.
Jenny seems to tiptoe around the edges a bit but - to be entirely fair to her - I haven't had chance to properly read some of her latest posts.
PMJ
Gopher talking a lot is a smokescreen. That is his established meta. Ask him directly if it isn't. Look at the game he linked where he was mafia with me. Even as a stand-in, he shitposts until people ignore him. My plan this game was to make sure he didn't go unignored.
If you ask him if it's a smokescreen, and he says no, then flips green... well... I don't want to reward a town gopher for throwing the game, but I will be back on for that midnight nudity business.
If you're lucky you may even find a post before the game where I outline his shitposting ways before roles are called. Check the sighnup thread.
Also, RB and PMJ. Please stop sniping at each other. You're both the kind of people that look down on ineptness. You're both the kind of people that talk smack. Right now it's not productive.
I never called you inept, and of course you can make reads in a particular game without reading another game - your reads are just going to be worse overall. It's not the result, it's the process.
I've played a game, I know Hado, I've read through that game. I read things in that context. You're reading it in the one tiny little context that is this particular game, and misreading as a result.
But...you self-identify as INTJ and you've said multiple stupid things in a row with a justification that basically boils down to, "that's just me". It's a shitty, self-serving justification but it's also one that I can't see changing, based on the way you've approached this game so far.
Stop being pedantic. You used the word stupid, but regardless.
Also, I didn't at all self-identify as an INTJ. I incorrectly self-identified as INFJ, but have since had dealings with Step II / III practitioners who typed me correctly. Clearly you're inferring that I'm too unintelligent to be an INTJ.
Let's get real here:
- I run a busy IT department
- I have a two year old and a ten week old baby
- I get up at 5am and go to bed at around midnight
- I've been suffering with sleep depravation for the better part of two years. Occasionally my body literally drops me into a sleep coma, from which I cannot be awoken. This most recently happened in work (lol) and I was out for a good few hours. Nobody bothers me though, because I get shit done.
So, I'm awfully sorry if I'm not contributing clear and concise cases. I'm doing the best I can with the resources (time; mental faculties) I have available. I'd like to see you do half of what I achieve given the circumstances.
I agree being experimental looks town...but the way he changed his mind about Helvete before, the reasons he gave for the gopher vote and then the way he quickly unvoted...All of this is confusing to me
That, and I checked on sinny. Couldn't believe I didn't see it before. Right after that, you said something that triggered you off. Then it all came into focus, finally.
Frig Gopher stays. Sinny's the role-blocker, I think. It could be her perculiar behaviour towards me with her acting the part, unless gopher put that in her head Night 0 to do a meta thing, but I dunno.
Yeah, I read him backing off on gopher as significantly less town. There was a dip in my green read of him because of it, but since I was already attacking gopher, there was no point in saying as much because people would assume I was just manipulating people into attacking gopher. I may have mentioned that he went down a bit in my estimation around that time, can't remember. Regardless, I reconfirmed him somewhere near the start of day 2? Or was that this morning
I made a note in my QT about it being cute that he thought what he did to gopher was tunneling.
Oooh you're talking about more recently. Well, he's really confused. Just like you were frustrated by so much content you couldn't decipher, he is adrift, not knowing where to start (in my estimation). When people are in this state with a deadline looming they look to authority, or for social cues. But in mafia there isn't anything like this that a noobie could confidently identify as genuine. So he's flaky. I think of this as natural for a town.
FYI I believe a scum Urk would be less flaky. Because he's not actually confused. He'd have a goal that he's trying to accomplish (Lynch one of these people, and don't lynch one of these people), and he'd probably stick to it a little more. That's not to say backflipping is town behaviour, but in this case, given the way he's constantly looking for new ways to understand, this is pretty expected.
I'm confident on Sinny. I'm confident on Gopher. It's not so much a Day 1 association case as it is two independent cases (I didn't involve Sinny in my Day 1 case on Gopher) that happen to also make sense when associated.
As far as I'm concerned that's the nail in the coffin, not what breaks it apart. You can ISO on Sinny and find scumminess in the way she trailed on people and her voting patterns, and I was already suspicious of Gopher on Day 1. I checked out to see who/where Sinny was taking cues from, and yeah, it was Gopher.
So take it as two separate cases if you want: Gopher being consistently unreadable despite having so much activity, plus the other stuff I've already outlined. Whicch no, is not a weak case - that's literally the ideal scum playstyle. They play between the lines, treading that place of doing town things without ever really helping Town. Scum Gopher wouldn't show up red, he'd show up null.
Then Sinny's scummy game, riding on the coattails of other people, changing her stance depending on whose coattails are the most comfortable at any given time - but ultimately keeps settling on Gopher's.
Don't let me speak for you Urakro if I'm wrong, but at this point I'm thinking you probably wish there was no deadline, and you could just kinda sandbox without losing the game? Amirite?
There's no case stronger than voting patterns, and I'm honestly not into casing someone the way you and Gopher have done it. It creates so much confusion and doesn't seem to be any better at convincing people of arguments. If people just disagree with the core reasoning, they aren't going to be convinced by further iterating the same points in a different way.
It just puts people off the game because of the insane amount of content they need to keep up with. I've been here on and off for the last 8 hours myself, have posted my cases and interacted a lot. I'm getting exhausted, plus I want others to chime in.
This is a very valid point. At first i thought you too fell into the Gopher/Hado grain, but that was an incorrect assumption. After further readings, your interactions seem to be more direct than theirs.
@Gopher:
If you could post a list as Hado has done of your current suspicions and possible townies, it would be appreciated.
I find both of you to be very confusing at times, though your point by point suspicions are interesting.
If the town knows how both you and Hado view the whole, I believe this game would not be as confusing.
@Ika:
I know this has been voiced before, but you have to participate.
Right now Hado is on the line, and I really want your input regarding the dance that hado and Gopher has undertaken, and how you place Gopher in the whole scheme of things.
@RB
I'm not saying your case on Gopher and Sinny isn't any good. I'm saying that at the time I read it on day one I dismissed it. I now share your read, and assuming you're right, respect your reading ability too, as this will pretty convincingly prove it's better than mine.
A bad wifom case is what happens when you focus on one or two pieces of evidence that could go either way aka Hado’s case on me. He focused on literally the interaction of two posts. What I’m doing to him is straight up listing so many reasons he’s scum it can’t possibly all be wifom. I am brutalising his mafia game.
• Also continues to gaslight Reluctantly instead of listening to her opinions and replying.
• Says that it’s just slander. Nope, you’re just throwing shit because all you have is shit. Don’t turn this political, for one you’ll lose, but I guess you have no other option as mafia.
• Side note RB posted a thing about why Hado’s town day one, and he hasn’t changed his opinion at all or had any more reasons to back up his read since then? Also it’s based on an assumption.
• Hado is still ignoring my case and has moved onto slander. Desperate to discredit me.
• Look not gonna get into metas and everything. Town hado would know he has nothing. Town Hado would start by replying to the case and take the confirmed town Reluctantly more seriously.
Right now 100% Mafia is Hado. Okay 95%+ but you get the idea. Actually if Hado flips town I’ll get in on the bets. I’ll buy new clothes (my old ones are falling apart) in a bathrobe. Sure it’s not running naked at night but you don’t expect for people to see you at night.
Theory, RB isn’t an idiot. Rb has a read on hado based on one interaction, RB sees about 1200 words in bullet point form all describing scummy things Hado has done. His town read on Hado doesn’t flinch. Also he says he’s voting for me partly due to lynch patterns? What better lynch pattern that signals scum than what I said before...
• He distanced himself from the lynch saying he didn’t really like it (called it basically a lurker lynch) but he didn’t have any reads that weren’t on me.
• He didn’t have any reads on people other than me apart from the fact he specifically initiated a truce so we could hunt people that weren’t super active. (Hado, RB and I)
• Now true that was also to give town breathing room but he had literally no opinion and in essence didn’t care about the day one lynch.
Second scum 80% Rb.
See a while back (In my QT) I called a Hado, RB, Sinny scum team. That seems kinda unlikely now if hado flips mafia and then RB flips mafia I’ll have to reconsider simply because that would be a weird interaction, still possible though. Now to answer RB the reason I dropped Sinny is not because I don’t think she’s scummy. All game she’s been different now she may have viable reasons for it sure but it’s still something to look into. The reason I dropped Sinny is because my scum read on Hado went into overdrive and I didn’t care about about Sinny anymore.
Anyway Sinny’s down to like a 55-65. Basically in the range I literally don’t care about lynching today when I have a 95%+ and 80% reads.
Also I remembered DP's advice about just following the top scum read and not messing around with wifom. (at least I think that was his advice)
People I don’t care about or read null.
Pretty much everyone else.
Town reads.
Rook.
Urakro
Confirmed town
Reluctantly
Gopher (Duh)
Also I do agree with the thing about taking votes off for another 19 hours. I'll do that after I find the vote count however if we could get a shadow vote going that would be great. Maybe in Yellow?
Side note I probably shouldn't have gone fencing my arm is actually dying. It's late enough in the evening I might wake up and start fresh on the last day. I will say Hado that you mentioned keeping 10% back what 10% was that? Why were you keeping secrets? Why aren't you answering the implicit questions in my posts with the bullet points.
(the full document on hado I've already written in this thread is in the spoiler. Don't bother reading it if you've read the thread it's just a reminder for hado about all the things he can't account for off the top of my head before I filter dive. (which I may not need to do honestly...))
If you have any questions you want explicitly answered a nice easy to read dot point format would be great. (Because when I wake up I probably won't re-read what you've said. I know that sucks for you having to write it/copy it again but my arm is limiting me)
The reason Hado is mafia
The first part is going over the reasons I did before and the second part is going over reasons I find later so the first checklist and paragraph will look familiar. Anyway I’ll stick to just saying facts, then I’ll explain the facts in my perspective since I intend to be clear and allow you to draw your own conclusions first. That said in the bullet points section still read for bias as I’m sure it slips in there.
• Okay, since half way through day one real time Hado has had a case on me.
• While he’s pointed out some things along the way he thinks are scummy he didn’t really get around to making a full case with proper reasoning like he did until the end of day one.
• Taking a really long time to make cases could be considered mafia because they have to be very careful.
• It took Hado two and a half days to make one case on one person he found really suspicious, and one person he found mildly suspicious. (RB)
• His case was almost entirely based on a first half of day suspicion and he couldn’t find anything but fluff and limp cases in the entire 2 and a half days that followed.
• He distanced himself from the lynch saying he didn’t really like it (called it basically a lurker lynch) but he didn’t have any reads that weren’t on me.
• He didn’t have any reads on people other than me apart from the fact he specifically initiated a truce so we could hunt people that weren’t super active. (Hado, RB and I)
• Now true that was also to give town breathing room but he had literally no opinion and in essence didn’t care about the day one lynch.
• He was doing things that give him power, specifically going after me out the gate (the main potential threat) and not giving me a chance to respond to his case.
• He admitted to cruising through day two and again did nothing but case me day three.
• Well while I’ll get to his case which gives his reasoning for this he did come out with a lurker strategy and then refused to answer my questions until the truce and him giving information finally “In good faith”.
• He deflects suspicion on him initially by coming after me.
Now that’s not the complete list but that’s what I have on the top of my head.
The result of his actions in short is; he gathers power for himself, he doesn’t look attached to the (now) town Happy lynch and didn’t need to give his reads on any of the potential lynch targets. This should make him harder to read day two He tried to set me up for a day two lynch before the first day is over and gets away with cruising/lurking essentially. Sure he’s active but he wasn’t involved in the lynch gave no reads but RB and I and creates drama only to take it away and say okay now the rest of you do the work for today. He also can’t find much apart from the one interaction however still believes it’s a strong case. He also potentially deflects a case on him by coming after me.
Other things that have happened.
• Helvete got Nk’d. If you read his filter Helvete was calling hado out constantly.
• Mafia may have Nk’d Helvete because they obviously thought reluctantly were town with the role block and figured he was protecting helvete. If mafia did this they would have been smart. Hado would totally be able to pick up on it.
• He pretended to think he thought I was town, then changed his mind and refused to give reasons why my case wasn’t right beyond wifom.
• My reasons clearly weren’t wifom. They were in fact less wifom than his case on me.
• He decided he wasn’t getting lynched day two.
• He totally freaked out with the cop claim, that said he didn’t read the post.
• He doesn’t think I’m town. (now this only works for me but hey it’s a reason)
• At the very least he's playing a dishonest town, which is a good way for mafia to hide their dishonesty.
Well I intended to not post at all but write down the reasons he’s scummy still as it happens. However it’s so overt and happening so constantly my arm is still in pain and I can’t help but post again. This time for real I’m going to leave.
• At this point I don’t recall him making a case on anyone else at all just being oh so pro town by letting others do it for him.
• Oh and Reluctantly, practically confirmed town is against him.
• Hado questions me about if I have anymore secrets up my sleeve and if not forever hold my peace. Aka he wants information about if I’m playing him.
• Mafia would have been rocked initially by me posting something at the start of day 2 completely opposite to expectation. They wouldn’t have thought to discuss it so may have ended up confused. Salty maybe?
• Hado shoots out a vote on me early, wants to gain momentum and distract from the case on himself.
• He “forgets” that while he was holding off on a case I was waiting for I went and made a case that got happy lynched.
• He doesn’t answer any single point on my case he just says I’m more guilty of all this stuff.
• He appeals to the authority of Ika when he supposedly don’t know ika’s role. (THIS IS SUPER IMPORTANT, it’s like he’s forgotten Ika could be scum. Who would forget that? Mafia)
• He “forgets” The reasoning I gave a few posts ago about why I changed my mind. Remember that wasn’t a 5000 word case on him being town it was a 4700 thousand case on why he’s scummy then why I’m not scummy then why I still thought he was town anyway for reasons I’ve since retracted in a logically consistent manner.
• He calls out another cop to come out because he wants to gaslight Reluctantly and put down her opinion.
• He calls a case on him entirely OMGUS, I’ll let you decide for yourself.
• A bad wifom case is what happens when you focus on one or two pieces of evidence that could go either way aka Hado’s case on me. He focused on literally the interaction of two posts. What I’m doing to him is straight up listing so many reasons he’s scum it can’t possibly all be wifom. I am brutalising his mafia game.
• Also continues to gaslight Reluctantly instead of listening to her opinions and replying.
• Says that it’s just slander. Nope, you’re just throwing shit because all you have is shit. Don’t turn this political, for one you’ll lose, but I guess you have no other option as mafia.
• Side note RB posted a thing about why Hado’s town day one, and he hasn’t changed his opinion at all or had any more reasons to back up his read since then? Also it’s based on an assumption.
• Hado is still ignoring my case and has moved onto slander. Desperate to discredit me.
• Look not gonna get into metas and everything. Town hado would know he has nothing. Town Hado would start by replying to the case and take the confirmed town Reluctantly more seriously.
@Rook
I have certainly been confusing. I admit as much. But I'm promising more clarity from now on. I'm not holding back anything anymore. And there is nothing like my day one case where I was deliberately a bit confusing.
Gopher will not become more transparent. Not until day 4. At which point if he were town he'd bet on himself to know who mafia are, and force town to ride him. Or, as scum, he'd just poke them into a mislynch. If what you're after is transparency, lynch gopher first.
Also, if Gopher flips green, I will post my QT just to avoid the next day's lynch being wasted. Lynching Gopher guarantees killing me or finding scum. So there's little reason to vote me over Gopher.
Also, I didn't at all self-identify as an INTJ. I incorrectly self-identified as INFJ, but have since had dealings with Step II / III practitioners who typed me correctly. Clearly you're inferring that I'm too unintelligent to be an INTJ.
I'm saying that I can tell you're not going to let this go, because an INTJ wouldn't let it go ("muh Ni bro!") and whether you self-type as or actually are INTJ isn't the point. You won't let go because it's not what an INTJ does, and you consider yourself INTJ so I'm fairly sure you're not letting go. So I'm letting it go because I'm not going to stop you tunneling Hado.
But I don't really understand why your tone has changed from, "it's an online game, jeez get over it people" into acting all indignant about my remarks - what happened to it just being an online game?
Oh and posting a lot isn't a smoke screen when I'm town, I can use it as a smoke screen when I'm scum true.
You'll notice I've moved onto more blunt easier to read Bullet posts compared to paragraphs. This is so it'll be easier to read and understand my intentions.
Wait wait wait you think that your case is strong because you made lots of little points?
That's bullshit.
I move with a lot of conviction, if all you have is little points you haven't got a case. By the way, did I not tell everyone that you work by throwing out so many micro claims that surely some of them will be picked up?
I did, it's in the spoiler. I pointed out every single scum thing you've done that I can think of without even needing to filter dive. Also respond to Reluctantly's case.
Don't try and slander my case. If you want to to extrapolate on every single point I'm happy to drown you in words but then you'll just call in a smoke screen. I don't care if you don't reply or think the case is bad. It's obvious the case is good and people will see the case and reluctantly's cases for what they are.
Again I really want to stop typing but when it's so easy to invalidate you it's making it hard for me.
I'm saying that I can tell you're not going to let this go, because an INTJ wouldn't let it go ("muh Ni bro!") and whether you self-type as or actually are INTJ isn't the point. You won't let go because it's not what an INTJ does, and you consider yourself INTJ so I'm fairly sure you're not letting go. So I'm letting it go because I'm not going to stop you tunneling Hado.
But I don't really understand why your tone has changed from, "it's an online game, jeez get over it people" into acting all indignant about my remarks - what happened to it just being an online game?
1) I assumed you were rattling my cage and I wanted to see what happened when I gave you the rise you sought. Not as much as I'd hoped, as it transpires.
2) You attacked my competence.
Bro, bro.
There's internet gaming, and there's kicking a guy where it hurts.
Okay so at this point I need to be a little decisive. Gopher is trying to make me waste a lot of time by addressing every little claim, and making me chase them up too. The more I answer, the more attention is on me, the more attacks come my way, the more I defend etc.
I'll dig my own grave.
So I'm not going to answer every attack. I don't have the time, or a good reason to. Not because I don't want to.
So I'll make erryone a deal. If there is a part of Gopher's case you find compelling, or a bahaviour of mine you want explained, I will explain it. But not for Gopher unless someone else is curious. Because I don't give a fuck what he thinks and it's in his best interest to waste my time.
I'm equally err.. reluctant to answer reluctantly's case, because honestly I find it confusing and they've shown little interest in actually listening to anything I have to say. But, I will answer the most pertinent bits if they're succinct questions. It's almost midnight here and I've already sat here pretty much since I got up with the exception of a half hour gym session.
PMJ, you were at my throat, but something has made you less firey. Is there a way you can test your beliefs? We've got days.
And, of course, I know it's repetitive, but I've not received an answer. Why would a scum hado point out reluctantly as cop instead of just NKing her? This is the crux of the case against me, why she revealed and went all-in on me, and why I'm in deep shit. But it doesn't make sense. All it would achieve for a mafia is bringing attention to themselves. No sense.
I have my exact reasoning for the move in my QT. It's 94 words long. It was within my 19th post. It was made at 06-12-201604:27 AM ET (US). If QuickTwist answers my question, I'll post it. It mirrors RB's reasoning (he actually guessed exactly right). Essentially, if Reluc was VT and scum missed it, then me joking about it drew attention to her as cop (protecting the real cop). If she was the cop, I was joking about it as if I wasn't worried she was cop, wifoming scum's certainty. It was off the cuff.
Because you didn't know, you had a hunch. But how could you know that I knew Helvete was town? It's a 1 in 13 chance that I'd know, so you role-blocked instead, because you suspected and so the doc might suspect as well and save me. That would waste a NK.
Sure maybe making it obvious I was cop is genuinely a bad play, but it seems to have paid off here.
Again,
Because you didn't know, you had a hunch. But how could you know that I knew Helvete was town? It's a 1 in 13 chance that I'd know, so you role-blocked instead, because you suspected and so the doc might suspect as well and save me. That would waste a NK.
Sure maybe making it obvious I was cop is genuinely a bad play, but it seems to have paid off here.
This is the first of several post describing the problem with that.
You can't NK reluctantly because you yourself said it was a 50-50 with the doctor between Uraukao and Reluctantly. You wouldn't want to waste the nk. If you think reluctantly is the Cop then it's obvious you would RB since Nkíng is effectively out of the equation. Mafia obviously did RB so they obviously decided it wasn't worth the risk. I then gave my reasons and it's in the dot points about why you might do the NK you did. The best you can do is talk about the cop with Reluctantly to confirm your suspicions for the RB.
Oh here he goes with the martyr/avoidance. I'm physically going to stop myself from reading tonight I've done enough people can look at this for themselves.
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