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Forum Mafia Game #2

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you went after Helvete like you knew something was going on. You looked incredibly suspicious. If you are Town, thanks for misleading the fuck out of ne. You didn't inspire any kind of confidence of impartiality and the aiming to solve a puzzle of confusion like a Town would because that's where Town are coming from. So no you don't align with a Town read and laugh all you want, but the jokes also on you if you're town.



You were just making observations like a Town would. I never read you as mafia ftr.
helvete would not post content, i just dont understand why. again im sorry @helvete for fucking up. what started as mild suspicion developed into something stronger because he dodged these questions:
ok i guess i need to ask you questions then to make you talk
who are your main suspects so far and why?
what did you look to gain from asking happy about my stance on lynching? hado answered this but you didnt
why a lurker mislynch? wouldnt that generate zero input for us for the next game? and anyway what lurker do you have in mind for a lynch?

also i want to apologise to urakro i think i was being an ass to u so far
and i kept quoting this like a million times...case in point is his NK generated no information. i dont understand why you think my POV was scummy.

i feel like shit now because i feel like im throwing the blame on everyone else but me...please ignore my last post.

and okay i wont post my QT. again i really need to go now. none of my exits before have been intentional door slams...i'll check in later
 

redbaron

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Gopher said:
If hado flips green I'll probably lynch Sinny. That said I thought it was a Sinny Hado scum team at one point so if Hado does flip green I'll have to reconsider.
Oh my fucking god, are you people looking at this?

When I said mafia Sinny was following mafia Gopher, his response was this:

The Gopher said:
Well no it relies on following a town OR a mafia player she's willing to follow. Just because you think her strat involves me being mafia doesn't mean her strat does. Her strat could be follow the town.

True that I wouldn't be able to scream at her though.
Yet if Hado flips green that suddenly exonerates Sinny from guilt? Fucking WHAT?
 

The Gopher

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Why am I like a robot? :storks:

Also not going to forever hold my peace or anything but I'm pretty sure what I've laid out now is my entire thought process for read/ read change and I'm not holding back anything. I am gonna write up my case and explain exactly why you're scum but apart from that I'm not playing anymore mind games.
 
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in typical zerkalo fashion, i am leaving this here before i go


vote sinny
 

The Gopher

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Oh my fucking god, are you people looking at this?

When I said mafia Sinny was following mafia Gopher, his response was this:



Yet if Hado flips green that suddenly exonerates Sinny from guilt? Fucking WHAT?
RECONSIDERING IS NOT EXONERATION!

Man it really is an RB Hado scum team I'm screwed.
 

The Gopher

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Also she wasn't following hado she was following me. She was anti following hado. Your point is completely and utterly invalid and when Hado flips red I'm (well I'm dead unless doctor saves me) lynching you.
 

Reluctantly

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helvete would not post content, i just dont understand why. again im sorry @helvete for fucking up. what started as mild suspicion developed into something stronger because he dodged these questions:
and i kept quoting this like a million times...case in point is his NK generated no information. i dont understand why you think my POV was scummy.

i feel like shit now because i feel like im throwing the blame on everyone else but me...please ignore my last post.

and okay i wont post my QT. again i really need to go now. none of my exits before have been intentional door slams...i'll check in later
I think I understand now. Man, this has gotten REAL interesting. I'm actually glad I decided not to really go after you, even though I was pretty confident you were mafia.

Still on Hado though; it IS possible he used you as a shield, given that mafia know who all the Town are and I was targeting you day 1.

UNOVTE Reluctantly
VOTE Hado
 

The Gopher

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Oh btw I would vote hado right now but I'll do it after my case so it's crystal clear and because I don't want the day to end randomly.
 

Reluctantly

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roger that, I just vote early so I at least get a vote in when it comes time to lynch. Though it looks like people are willing to wait until the end of the day.
 

redbaron

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Gopher said:
I don't care if you tunnel me to another dimension that's an empty threat that town doesn't need to make. Also because I'm now sure hado is scum. Are you happy lynching hado knowing it means you'll be able to tunnel me to another dimension? Hado's lynch would certainty give the most information out of anyone besides maybe me.
I won't tunnel you first if Hado flips green - I'll tunnel Sinny. And if she flips red, then you're next. I'm sacrificing 1 town to lynch 2 of my highest scum reads.

As I see it right now, when we lynch either you or Hado, whatever you turn up as - Sinny goes next. Sinny's on the scum radar of multiple people who I'm reading as Town and she's been, "off" to so many people.
 

The Gopher

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Fair RB. Do you agree with my point that your latest argument was wrong? Also, reasoning Urakro?
 

Urakro

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Fair RB. Do you agree with my point that your latest argument was wrong? Also, reasoning Urakro?
You keep mixing truth with lies. It's like "yeah, I'm mafia, but why would you lynch me? I'll flip green, and then you'll all know it's hado".

Something like that.
 

Hadoblado

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Vote: The Gopher

If you were town you'd be thinking hard about whether the conflict I manufactured between us was genuine. It's basically all I've thought about for days. Don't get me wrong, my reasons for casing you were real, but I soft-balled it some so that if you were town, scum would leave us alone, while I kept my options open to tunnel you day two if my read should develop. I *know* that you're familiar with this strat, and that this should have been part of your reasoning for why I would be being less than 100% sincere if I were town.

That I deliberately gave you an ambiguous answer about my read on you day two should have screamed to a town gopher that I was trying for a repeat performance. I even made you tease it out of me, hinting at the notion I had a very good reason to control what scum thought about our interactions. It is literally the case that I'd just secured immunity from NK for both myself and Gopher if we were both town. Which is a town act in the eyes of town gopher, as it takes a lot of effort for something that doesn't really benefit scum much.

I'll get more together later (that's meant to be more than just between me and Goph), most of it I've already stated so it's not as if I'll be reading flow.
 

Urakro

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Fair RB. Do you agree with my point that your latest argument was wrong? Also, reasoning Urakro?
That, and I checked on sinny. Couldn't believe I didn't see it before. Right after that, you said something that triggered you off. Then it all came into focus, finally.
 

Hadoblado

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To the others:

Gopher plays until the last breath as scum. He won't lay down and die. He will not be beaten into submission. This doesn't really help much as a prediction, but all martyring should be perceived as absolute social manipulation, and you should put all hopes aside that this will be easy.
 

The Gopher

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You keep mixing truth with lies. It's like "yeah, I'm mafia, but why would you lynch me? I'll flip green, and then you'll all know it's hado".

Something like that.
What.

Vote: The Gopher

If you were town you'd be thinking hard about whether the conflict I manufactured between us was genuine. It's basically all I've thought about for days. Don't get me wrong, my reasons for casing you were real, but I soft-balled it some so that if you were town, scum would leave us alone, while I kept my options open to tunnel you day two if my read should develop. I *know* that you're familiar with this strat, and that this should have been part of your reasoning for why I would be being less than 100% sincere if I were town.

That I deliberately gave you an ambiguous answer about my read on you day two should have screamed to a town gopher that I was trying for a repeat performance. I even made you tease it out of me, hinting at the notion I had a very good reason to control what scum thought about our interactions. It is literally the case that I'd just secured immunity from NK for both myself and Gopher if we were both town. Which is a town act in the eyes of town gopher, as it takes a lot of effort for something that doesn't really benefit scum much.

I'll get more together later (that's meant to be more than just between me and Goph), most of it I've already stated so it's not as if I'll be reading flow.


I assumed it was genuine. If you were town or scum I assumed genuine. Strat works both ways. I don't care about getting Nk'd night two as long as we win the game. It's too late to play sneaky.

Changed my mind on the whole voting thing since I doubt we'll get to 6 votes before the last day and if we do that's something that's really interesting to analyse. Also if hado isn't going to play to town's win condition (late voting) I don't care either. That said I probably should care since he's scum okay this is purely an I'm offended vote. While the vote is real the reasons for voting now are because I'm annoyed and I admit that.

Vote: Hadoblado
 

Urakro

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Frig Gopher stays. Sinny's the role-blocker, I think. It could be her perculiar behaviour towards me with her acting the part, unless gopher put that in her head Night 0 to do a meta thing, but I dunno.

Unvote Gopher
 

redbaron

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Fair RB. Do you agree with my point that your latest argument was wrong? Also, reasoning Urakro?
Okay, I see how it can be construed wrong: but it's really not.

The entirety of the argument initially was contingent on her having someone she'd be willing to follow. I thought she'd never follow Hado. But the thing is I didn't realise mafia could talk on Day 0 - which doesn't change my argument that you couldn't possibly stop her sheeping you on Day 1.

But it does however mean that the pool of who she'd follow gets expanded. Because Hado and her could truce - and this is something Hado would certainly do, and I think Sinny would have no issue doing it. So it takes away the fact that my idea is necessarily contingent on the experienced mafia being someone she's just inherently willing to follow in the first place - and allows for her to be mafia following someone either way.

So she doesn't change for me as a mafia read based on the way one of you flips. She's following someone, otherwise there's no way she plays this way.

Which is why I think you're scum and even if you're not you're still right about what you said: just beccause her leader is Town, doesn't mean Sinny's not mafia. That actually stuck in my head as a reason not to stop tunneling her because if you got lynched and flipped green, initially I would have reconsidered my stance on her. But whether you're town or not, your point is a good one: Sinny's not exonerated by you flipping green, nor from Hado flipping green.
 

The Gopher

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What meta thing? Oh I would totally tell Sinny to act all conspiratorial and aggressive. The fact she isn't helps prove I'm town.

Okay just because I want to justify the vote I'm gonna re-bring up the reasons hado is mafia with a little extra that I've started on. This is before going back through Hado's posts where I'm sure I'll find plenty more. It's incomplete but honestly it should be enough. Explain this. Stop being meta just be honest. Playing a dishonest town is a good way for scum to hide. (oh wait I should add that)

I've already given my reasons for changing back and forth on my read of hado so I'll just get right into it.

The reason Hado is mafia

The first part is going over the reasons I did before and the second part is going over reasons I find later so the first checklist and paragraph will look familiar. Anyway I’ll stick to just saying facts, then I’ll explain the facts in my perspective since I intend to be clear and allow you to draw your own conclusions first. That said in the bullet points section still read for bias as I’m sure it slips in there.

• Okay, since half way through day one real time Hado has had a case on me.
• While he’s pointed out some things along the way he thinks are scummy he didn’t really get around to making a full case with proper reasoning like he did until the end of day one.
• Taking a really long time to make cases could be considered mafia because they have to be very careful.
• It took Hado two and a half days to make one case on one person he found really suspicious, and one person he found mildly suspicious. (RB)
• His case was almost entirely based on a first half of day suspicion and he couldn’t find anything but fluff and limp cases in the entire 2 and a half days that followed.
• He distanced himself from the lynch saying he didn’t really like it (called it basically a lurker lynch) but he didn’t have any reads that weren’t on me.
• He didn’t have any reads on people other than me apart from the fact he specifically initiated a truce so we could hunt people that weren’t super active. (Hado, RB and I)
• Now true that was also to give town breathing room but he had literally no opinion and in essence didn’t care about the day one lynch.
• He was doing things that give him power, specifically going after me out the gate (the main potential threat) and not giving me a chance to respond to his case.
• He admitted to cruising through day two and again did nothing but case me day three.
• Well while I’ll get to his case which gives his reasoning for this he did come out with a lurker strategy and then refused to answer my questions until the truce and him giving information finally “In good faith”.
• He deflects suspicion on him initially by coming after me.

Now that’s not the complete list but that’s what I have on the top of my head.
The result of his actions in short is; he gathers power for himself, he doesn’t look attached to the (now) town Happy lynch and didn’t need to give his reads on any of the potential lynch targets. This should make him harder to read day two He tried to set me up for a day two lynch before the first day is over and gets away with cruising/lurking essentially. Sure he’s active but he wasn’t involved in the lynch gave no reads but RB and I and creates drama only to take it away and say okay now the rest of you do the work for today. He also can’t find much apart from the one interaction however still believes it’s a strong case. He also potentially deflects a case on him by coming after me.


Other things that have happened.

• Helvete got Nk’d. If you read his filter Helvete was calling hado out constantly.
• Mafia may have Nk’d Helvete because they obviously thought reluctantly were town with the role block and figured he was protecting helvete. If mafia did this they would have been smart. Hado would totally be able to pick up on it.
• He pretended to think he thought I was town, then changed his mind and refused to give reasons why my case wasn’t right beyond wifom.
• My reasons clearly weren’t wifom. They were in fact less wifom than his case on me.
• He decided he wasn’t getting lynched day two.
• He totally freaked out with the cop claim, that said he didn’t read the post.
• He doesn’t think I’m town. (now this only works for me but hey it’s a reason)
• At the very least he's playing a dishonest town, which is a good way for mafia to hide their dishonesty.
 

The Gopher

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Fair point she isn't. All I'm saying is I'll have to re-look at the reasons why she's scum in light of the flip. If the reasons come up good I wouldn't want to lynch her. If the reasons come up bad I would. That and it'll be really embarrassing to be manipulated in this way if you were mafia.
 

The Gopher

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Oh I might suddenly stop being active for a while since I'm going to eat then fence for several hours. Just don't lynch me while I'm out K? I'll be here still for a while but just in case I don't have time to say it I'm saying it now.
 

Hadoblado

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Hahaha now you even refuse to just clearly vote me?


Hahahaa

Because I'm not you're #1 read right. But no. You can't even vote me just because you suspect me. You have to be 'annoyed' first. Because you're the kind to passive aggressively vote someone to relieve you're own pent up anger?

:D

I mean you've literally cased me. You've just tried to make a huge bandwagon on me once Reluctantly supplied the casus belli. But still you want to distance yourself from my mis-lynch. Because a town gopher would be trying to distance himself from the lynch he's tunneling? I mean, apparently I'm red enough for you to give up on attacking Sinny, so why the hell on earth would you need to play it prudent? Sign your name off on it or fuck off. Wait, you can't, because it's me and then you. Or just you.
 

The Gopher

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I have zero problem signing of on you. I do have a problem with the day ending two full days early and since the case on you is so good it might. I would loose two days of the mafia desperately trying to save you which I could use to catch them day three.

This is undeniably pro town and yet you're trying to manipulate it against me. Did you not agree with this logic day one?
 

The Gopher

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Also if I was do die when out simply because I didn't put my vote on you that would suck. I don't want you starting a bandwagon on me when you haven't even provided a case worth shit.
 

The Gopher

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Actually my arm is bad from all the typing. Gonna stop completely until back from fencing because even though I fence left-handed now I still need to use it to get there and back. I've said all I need to say for now and will only add to the reasons you're scum when I return.
 

Hadoblado

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Nah bud talking about this:

okay this is purely an I'm offended vote. While the vote is real the reasons for voting now are because I'm annoyed and I admit that.
"The vote is real, but I don't really mean it, please lynch he but only because you want to and not because I actually think he's scum".

I mean as town at this point you think I'm scum. You don't need to be annoyed to vote for me. There is no scenario where you think I'm town and act the way you have. So why are you concerned about looking like you genuinely thought I was scum?

I'll tell you why, it's because you want room to maneuver after I flip green. A town gopher who's sacrificing his read on sinny to come after me doesn't have room in his heart for doubt. If he had that room, he probably wouldn't have committed so hard in the first place. Only a mafia who knows that they've got a good chance of getting me lynched, but doesn't want to be tied to the action, would start backing out by blaming their fickle emotions, demonstrating they both have the meta-awareness to question their emotions, while also ignoring that meta-awareness.

But it's too late for you now. You've shown. All that's left for you to do is knuckle down and stay the course. Even if you get me, you know you're dead now day 3 at best. One last hurrah for the hoard eh?
 

Hadoblado

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Urakro
I don't understand why you're on sinny. Honestly it doesn't matter that much who's roleblocker, and it's basically impossible to tell for town anyway. Roleblocker doesn't necessarily make the decision as to who the target is. They consult with their team first. So technically they have the last say, but it's a non issue since usually they'll all reach an accord anyway.

It doesn't affect how they play.

And I need you on Gopher. If for whatever reason you genuinely confirm me town (I just don't know anymore), please believe me when I say Gopher needs to die before the sun goes down. If you know I'm town you know he's leading a mislynch on me. But you also know he should be the one with the best ability to gauge whether or not I'm town, since we know each other. If he's mislynching me, this implies that even though he had the best ability to discern my townhood, he's choosing to lynch me. How could you manage to get a read on me as town, while he hasn't?

Of course, I'm not sure how on earth you've confirmed me town, so this argument may fall through as you might be tricking once more, but I need to try.
 

The Gopher

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Naw if I was mafia I would rely on a Sinny lynch day three (as town or mafia I would just bus) then Nk RB night 3 then confuse the rest of the bunch.

I have to be annoyed to vote for you at a point before 24 hours to end of day. The fact you're voting for me before 24 hours til end of day without reason (not reason to vote but reason to vote early) is suspicious. I still have no desire to let you live today I just understand I'm not playing optimally due to my emotional state. (not emotional manipulation but I see how it's gonna be perceived)

Aka the vote is real, I do mean it. I shouldn't be voting right now but I don't care. I'm tied to the action no matter what happens now. I am however saying anyone who follow up votes on either case that gets a lynch before 24 til end of day is stupid. Not everyone in day two has even talked yet. Well if you count that Ike hasn't said anything much as he hasn't finished reading or something.

Also you're wrong. This is misdirection and doesn't explain any of your actions.


"And I need you on Gopher. If for whatever reason you genuinely confirm me town (I just don't know anymore), please believe me when I say Gopher needs to die before the sun goes down. If you know I'm town you know he's leading a mislynch on me. But you also know he should be the one with the best ability to gauge whether or not I'm town, since we know each other. If he's mislynching me, this implies that even though he had the best ability to discern my townhood, he's choosing to lynch me. How could you manage to get a read on me as town, while he hasn't?"

Fallacy, it's because I have a better read on you as scum. He's framing his words to imply he is town in a very specific way.

Again don't lynch me when I'm not here. I want to do a post before if it's on me or in twilight if it's not today.
 

Hadoblado

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To be fair, Sinny is my #1 read after Gopher. They seem like a perfect scum compliment. But I don't want to go after Sinny until Gopher flips red.

Thankyou zerk <3
I luv you bb no but srs ur gorgous.
 

Reluctantly

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...
• Helvete got Nk’d. If you read his filter Helvete was calling hado out constantly.
• Mafia may have Nk’d Helvete because they obviously thought reluctantly were town with the role block and figured he was protecting helvete. If mafia did this they would have been smart. Hado would totally be able to pick up on it.
...
With Zerk almost certainly town at this point, I've been wondering why he didn't kill me. I just want to add that if I was dead, I couldn't be alive to tunnel Zerk. On the other hand, killing Helvete, as you said, removes suspicion from helvete; then he can support and hide behind a Townie Zerk while I go after her and find out she's Town, making me a lynch target and making him look good.

Except he got called out on Zerk.

This is REALLY starting to make some sense. I stand 100% on my Hado vote now after reading your case. Plus, you have more of the calm and honest role here that doesn't suggest you have any plan going on like a mafia would. You at least consider potentialities, while Hado ignores a lot; it doesn't fit Town at all. And Yeah, you went after Hado, but it was in self-defense, especially when you know you're Town, it just fits. I never could figure out how people thought your defense showed any kind of mafia intentions, which I think was one of Hado's big mistakes.
 

Hadoblado

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I don't want to lynch gopher while he's not here. I won't try to kill him like that.

Last time I was cop and I had a read on Puffy, so I pushed that plan because I had absolute certainly I would be vindicated when he flipped. I'm not cop now, so I won't pull the fast one.

If gopher can't think of a reason why I would shoot out a vote he's not thinking hard enough though. ATM the vote is split. I know I'm town, even if I didn't have a strong read on gopher, I'd want him dead over me. That's just obvious. Assuming he was a complete null read, that'd be a 36% chance of landing a mafia instead of a 0% chance. But he's not a complete null read. This is do or die for me. I'd prefer he died early than I died late.

Gopher, what's your read on Sinny? Give me a percentage like you did me.
 

Hadoblado

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Please if we do have a cop, call now to kill Reluctantly.

I do think she's cop, but this shit's so unbelievable it's giving me doubts.

"You're so calm, you must be town". Was Puffy not calm? You're misreading Gopher's temperament for his alignment. Yes he is calm. Which is exactly why all his OMGUS bullshit is fake. He's too calm and collected for that nonsense.

The best player here, ika, came in and immediately read me town. Gopher, despite being among the best players here, has constantly upheld a facade of OMGUS. He's aware of all the queues that ika picked up on, and he's too calm and collected to OMGUS. Apparently he didn't think we were manufacturing conflict to avoid NK. So what the fuck was he doing coming back at me?

His case against me is weak. Most of it is stuff he's more guilty of than me. Like for example, that I held off a case. He held off doing anything until I posted a case!! I took time to post a case? He waited even longer! And when he did, he didn't even post one.

How does he go from a 5000 word case for me being town, to being dead certain I'm scum? How does that make any sense to you? I mean, he couldn't take a position then, but as soon as he saw the opportunity (your reveal), he's been all over me. And still he refuses to answer my question about why I would point out a cop as scum instead of just NKing them.
 

Reluctantly

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I'm finding it harder to believe RB is Town now since he voted for Gopher when there's not much of a case. It could out to be another Zerk, but

hmmmm, just saying, something is off. RB is hiding something.
 

Reluctantly

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Please if we do have a cop, call now to kill Reluctantly.

I do think she's cop, but this shit's so unbelievable it's giving me doubts.

"You're so calm, you must be town". Was Puffy not calm? You're misreading Gopher's temperament for his alignment. Yes he is calm. Which is exactly why all his OMGUS bullshit is fake. He's too calm and collected for that nonsense.
You're just digging the hole now. Nit picking words. Yes Gopher is calm and not reactive and that does speak volumes to me. Yeah sure, so was Puffy, but that was a different game and Puffy didn't have to participate much because you lead the Town to cannibalize itself in that game. All Puffy had to do was sit back and appear innocuous. However Gopher has been grilled by RB and you and whoever else I'm forgetting the whole game and has not shown anything to suggest he's hiding anything, nor is he freaking out like you are constantly.

Besides, like I said before, that other game had different players with different roles and different dynamic. I don't give a shit about that game, lol. It's your only way to hold on now and it's weak as all hell.

The best player here, ika, came in and immediately read me town.
Ika hasn't said very much. I don't even know what he/she thinks. Ika should post their own case, as should you.

Gopher, despite being among the best players here, has constantly upheld a facade of OMGUS. He's aware of all the queues that ika picked up on, and he's too calm and collected to OMGUS. Apparently he didn't think we were manufacturing conflict to avoid NK. So what the fuck was he doing coming back at me?
wat


His case against me is weak. Most of it is stuff he's more guilty of than me. Like for example, that I held off a case. He held off doing anything until I posted a case!! I took time to post a case? He waited even longer! And when he did, he didn't even post one.

How does he go from a 5000 word case for me being town, to being dead certain I'm scum? How does that make any sense to you? I mean, he couldn't take a position then, but as soon as he saw the opportunity (your reveal), he's been all over me. And still he refuses to answer my question about why I would point out a cop as scum instead of just NKing them.
It's not the cases themselves or how they were strategically given, it's the delivery and the content and the defense. Yours is haphazard and your initial suspicions were dubious as it was the start of the game. Gopher's also built a pretty solid case at this point, while you keep mentioning irrelevant things that having nothing to do with his case.
 

The Gopher

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Well I intended to not post at all but write down the reasons he’s scummy still as it happens. However it’s so overt and happening so constantly my arm is still in pain and I can’t help but post again. This time for real I’m going to leave.

• At this point I don’t recall him making a case on anyone else at all just being oh so pro town by letting others do it for him.
• Oh and Reluctantly, practically confirmed town is against him.
• Hado questions me about if I have anymore secrets up my sleeve and if not forever hold my peace. Aka he wants information about if I’m playing him.
• Mafia would have been rocked initially by me posting something at the start of day 2 completely opposite to expectation. They wouldn’t have thought to discuss it so may have ended up confused. Salty maybe?
• Hado shoots out a vote on me early, wants to gain momentum and distract from the case on himself.
• He “forgets” that while he was holding off on a case I was waiting for I went and made a case that got happy lynched.
• He doesn’t answer any single point on my case he just says I’m more guilty of all this stuff.
• He appeals to the authority of Ika when he supposedly don’t know ika’s role. (THIS IS SUPER IMPORTANT, it’s like he’s forgotten Ika could be scum. Who would forget that? Mafia)
• He “forgets” The reasoning I gave a few posts ago about why I changed my mind. Remember that wasn’t a 5000 word case on him being town it was a 4700 thousand case on why he’s scummy then why I’m not scummy then why I still thought he was town anyway for reasons I’ve since retracted in a logically consistent manner.
• He calls out another cop to come out because he wants to gaslight Reluctantly and put down her opinion. Political warfare.
• He calls a case on him entirely OMGUS, I’ll let you decide for yourself.
 

redbaron

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I'm finding it harder to believe RB is Town now since he voted for Gopher when there's not much of a case. It could out to be another Zerk, but

hmmmm, just saying, something is off. RB is hiding something.
Gopher is simultaneously trying to lynch one of my higher town reads (Hado) and one of my highest scum reads (Sinny) as, "hiding something".

He was suspicious of Sinny at first, but when I start saying, "okay fine, we lynch Sinny even if Hado flips green", he starts acting like he doesn't want to do it. If Gopher is scum, then so is Sinny. Book it.
 

redbaron

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Gopher is simultaneously trying to lynch one of my higher town reads (Hado) and one of my highest scum reads (Sinny) as, "hiding something".
As in, how is it hiding something that I suspect Gopher of being mafia when he's doing both of those things simultaneously.

As mentioned, I'll vote Hado if I can't get a lynch on Gopher - because if he flips red I'm going for Sinny, then I'll re-evaluate my Gopher stance. If he flips green I'm going for Sinny and Gopher.
 

Sinny91

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What is this chaos I have just walked in on?

:walkout:

A wealth of developments, that's for sure.

So get this, I go to sleep as a reasonably safe Townie, and then I wake up to burning pitch forks... Like, I thought I was an integral member of this community?

I was 3 pages behind, and I've just had to skim the last one.. There's so much I'd love to say, but I have to leave for work in about 45 minutes. I'm not quite sure how to prioritise that time I have.

Reluctantly, ballsy move. For the record, I was with you 100% of the Zerk thing. I see I skimmed passed that she's managed to convince you all other wise now, but I didn't like it one it. Any of it, or any of her excuses.

I've been making an active effort not to get as emotionally invested as in the previous game, for these precise reasons... Thing get heated, thoughts develop, you doubt your own convictions, relations are tested, and at the end of the day in all probability, you were wrong.

I hate being wrong, just.fucking.hate.it. Soo once again, forgive me for not being this fucking snarling bull dog you all expect me to be.. Good job an all considering the rage quitters. I wanted to Tunnel Zerk ages ago but knew she couldn't hack it. I've deliberately tried my best to be diplomatic with Hado to avoid the pitfalls and Tunnel vision that I can develop.

But noo Sinnys a fucking retard innit, and unless she's our for someone's blood, something up. Fucking idiots. I am trying not to be a rebel without a cause. 

For quite a while now my top suspects have been Zerk, RB and Goph/Hado.

I've been watchin the dynamics unfold. Wasn't sure what to make of Redbaron buddying Hado, or has he been Bussing Gopher? (But I know he's been doing something)

Anyway, trying to figure out this little mystery is where I am right now. But guys, I really really, do need to go to work, please don't kill me in my absence, and TALK TO ME about your doubts. YOU ALL SEEM TO BE DANCING AROUND ME, and that is not my fault, frankly.

I have more points, but they probably will have to wait till later.
 

Reluctantly

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Gopher is simultaneously trying to lynch one of my higher town reads (Hado) and one of my highest scum reads (Sinny) as, "hiding something".

He was suspicious of Sinny at first, but when I start saying, "okay fine, we lynch Sinny even if Hado flips green", he starts acting like he doesn't want to do it. If Gopher is scum, then so is Sinny. Book it.
if if if if,

you're focused on a bunch of hyper logic that presumes not only your reads are just right, but also that Sinny has this mysterious link. She's not been much of a participant. Where do you see Gopher and Sinny as a mafia couple? I never saw it frankly, not saying you're wrong, but you'll need to convince me at this point since I never saw it.

Meanwhile, there's a case on Hado and you ignore it to consider wishful potentialities. Why is that?
 

Hadoblado

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Can we not agree at least that this is a slander war?

Because we're both throwing shit at each other.

But I'm not the one trying to look calm and collected while doing it.

You don't recall me making a case? Okay, could you please list off which case have been made in this game? Because I've made one on you. You then did a 5000 word non-case on me. Other people have said they were making cases, but I'm unaware of any real cases.

You literally waited until day two to post a non-case. Then accused me of only casing you.

When there are a lack of genuine cases all up.

I may have not cased people more than others, but my input has been consistent throughout. And it hasn't been all fluff like yours. I know you don't believe you posted more content than me. You've admitted that your meta is not to post much content for the first few days. We both know you don't believe you've done more than me, and yet you would still use it as your case against me. Why? Because you know that Reluctantly will permasheep you no matter what you say.

Who else even fucking glanced at Helvete?

Who looked into Zerkalo when she went absent?

No I wasn't attached to the day one lynch, but neither were you. Which one of us was open about it, and which one of us sat there posturing at the other one?

While it's true I haven't cased anyone else like I have you, it's not for lack of trying. I have demonstrated again and again that I'm looking for scumsign, and what the fuck have you done you dribbling droopy eyed pompous little twat? Fucking nothing that was initiated by me. You're a fucking reaction to my action. And yet you have the gall to sit here claiming I've done nothing.

Point to a single fucking thing you've done that had nothing to do with me. Something you've actually done. You almost thought about throwing the notion out there that Sinny may or may not be scum but probably could not be if only people other than yourself would think about it for you unless of course they didn't want to because that would be alright you guess. Show me. Quote it you dogburner. Show us what all of those posts have been for because gee whiz you do have a lot of them. Surely some of them did something right?
 

Reluctantly

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What is this chaos I have just walked in on?

:walkout:

A wealth of developments, that's for sure.

So get this, I go to sleep as a reasonably safe Townie, and then I wake up to burning pitch forks... Like, I thought I was an integral member of this community?

I was 3 pages behind, and I've just had to skim the last one.. There's so much I'd love to say, but I have to leave for work in about 45 minutes. I'm not quite sure how to prioritise that time I have.

Reluctantly, ballsy move. For the record, I was with you 100% of the Zerk thing. I see I skimmed passed that she's managed to convince you all other wise now, but I didn't like it one it. Any of it, or any of her excuses.

I've been making an active effort not to get as emotionally invested as in the previous game, for these precise reasons... Thing get heated, thoughts develop, you doubt your own convictions, relations are tested, and at the end of the day in all probability, you were wrong.

I hate being wrong, just.fucking.hate.it. Soo once again, forgive me for not being this fucking snarling bull dog you all expect me to be.. Good job an all considering the rage quitters. I wanted to Tunnel Zerk ages ago but knew she couldn't hack it. I've deliberately tried my best to be diplomatic with Hado to avoid the pitfalls and Tunnel vision that I can develop.

But noo Sinnys a fucking retard innit, and unless she's our for someone's blood, something up. Fucking idiots. I am trying not to be a rebel without a cause. 

For quite a while now my top suspects have been Zerk, RB and Goph/Hado.

I've been watchin the dynamics unfold. Wasn't sure what to make of Redbaron buddying Hado, or has he been Bussing Gopher? (But I know he's been doing something)

Anyway, trying to figure out this little mystery is where I am right now. But guys, I really really, do need to go to work, please don't kill me in my absence, and TALK TO ME about your doubts. YOU ALL SEEM TO BE DANCING AROUND ME, and that is not my fault, frankly.

I have more points, but they probably will have to wait till later.
See, I can't find fault with you. If you're mafia, you might be playing it safe and tricking me; but you don't seem to. Your logic flows with the game as a confused Townie. If you are mafia, again that's probably a good strategy, but you haven't done anything weird up to this point. So I don't even know why all the fuss about you.

I need to see RB's case first.
 

Hadoblado

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We've got two days until lynch time guys. As much as it's heated in here, I really need to do something (anything!) today. I've been sitting here ever since I woke up 7.5 hours ago.

Neither Gopher nor myself want this to end early. This discussion has been very productive, and I'm hoping it will continue to be so.

So I'm unvoting. Not because I won't be voting gopher, but because I don't want the day to end early. We have ages to get it all figured out.

Unvote

Don't take this as me being wishywashy. My vote is on Gopher.
 

Sinny91

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See, I can't find fault with you. If you're mafia, you might be playing it safe and tricking me; but you don't seem to. Your logic flows with the game as a confused Townie. If you are mafia, again that's probably a good strategy, but you haven't done anything weird up to this point. So I don't even know why all the fuss about you.

I need to see RB's case first.
Thank you! That's my perspective too, and I don't mean to be up your arse, but I have found you to be a voice of reason.

I really should leave in the next ten minutes, I should be back around 3pm. GMT.
 

redbaron

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if if if if,

you're focused on a bunch of hyper logic that presumes not only your reads are just right, but also that Sinny has this mysterious link. She's not been much of a participant. Where do you see Gopher and Sinny as a mafia couple? I never saw it frankly, not saying you're wrong, but you'll need to convince me at this point since I never saw it.

Meanwhile, there's a case on Hado and you ignore it to consider wishful potentialities. Why is that?
I've explained this already. This was the post I made back in Day 1 when I was talking about why I read Hado as town. My words in blue.

"In that case, I'll justify why before I thought you were town and why now I'm almost certain you're town.

When I sheeped you I figured you'd be suspicious and 'turn' on me for it. It's what both town and mafia Hado would do, so that's not what sold it. Especially since Gopher is in the game, I had to confirm that you weren't bussing each other and were both mafia or else I couldn't play this card because you'd both just support the sheeping and ride me all the way to victory. There'd be no way town could beat a Gopher-Hado mafia combo with me sheeping (no offence town).

Town Hado turns on me, because he's genuinely suspicious about my sheep. He has a case and needs to rule out that I'm conveniently sheeping him just to play last game's meta.

Mafia Hado turns suspicion on me, because he knows there's potential that someone (Gopher especially) will see straight through the sheep and recognize the danger of potential mafia Hado having Town RB sheep him all game. It's going to divide Town. Mafia Hado knows that Gopher knows this, so Hado turns on me first to clear himself of guilt.

The difference though, is that mafia Hado would never say this:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hadoblado
While I'm not confident he wouldn't catch me as scum, a player on their second game has no business being that confident they could catch an experienced player without issue.

It's a sore spot that I'm digging at by saying you just outright can't beat me if you're mafia, and if you're mafia you're not going to defend it like that because if I'm sheeping you and calling you town, mafia Hado wouldn't plant the seed that, "Actually I could beat you dick." - because if you're really mafia and I sheep you, then you already KNOW that you're winning and you can just sit there smugly and ride my misplaced arrogance to victory.

So you're town, and I'd implore others that even if I get lynched by Hado - when I flip green, please don't reflexively lynch him in response. Thanks.

Obviously none of this makes me more green, but when and if I die then you'll at least know you can trust Hado."
 

Reluctantly

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I've explained this already. This was the post I made back in Day 1 when I was talking about why I read Hado as town. My words in blue.

"In that case, I'll justify why before I thought you were town and why now I'm almost certain you're town.

When I sheeped you I figured you'd be suspicious and 'turn' on me for it. It's what both town and mafia Hado would do, so that's not what sold it. Especially since Gopher is in the game, I had to confirm that you weren't bussing each other and were both mafia or else I couldn't play this card because you'd both just support the sheeping and ride me all the way to victory. There'd be no way town could beat a Gopher-Hado mafia combo with me sheeping (no offence town).

Town Hado turns on me, because he's genuinely suspicious about my sheep. He has a case and needs to rule out that I'm conveniently sheeping him just to play last game's meta.

Mafia Hado turns suspicion on me, because he knows there's potential that someone (Gopher especially) will see straight through the sheep and recognize the danger of potential mafia Hado having Town RB sheep him all game. It's going to divide Town. Mafia Hado knows that Gopher knows this, so Hado turns on me first to clear himself of guilt.

The difference though, is that mafia Hado would never say this:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hadoblado
While I'm not confident he wouldn't catch me as scum, a player on their second game has no business being that confident they could catch an experienced player without issue.

It's a sore spot that I'm digging at by saying you just outright can't beat me if you're mafia, and if you're mafia you're not going to defend it like that because if I'm sheeping you and calling you town, mafia Hado wouldn't plant the seed that, "Actually I could beat you dick." - because if you're really mafia and I sheep you, then you already KNOW that you're winning and you can just sit there smugly and ride my misplaced arrogance to victory.

So you're town, and I'd implore others that even if I get lynched by Hado - when I flip green, please don't reflexively lynch him in response. Thanks.

Obviously none of this makes me more green, but when and if I die then you'll at least know you can trust Hado."
I just don't see how you can think that trumps the case on him at this point. It's very likely he catch onto you and wanted to make it known how Town he was. I mean that was my read on him at the beginning, that he was really trying to appear Town. Yeah, that doesn't mean he's not, but too much pressure is also kind of odd.

Anyway, that can go for Town Hado or Mafia Hado. Really if it convinced you that much over the case on him, you've got another drop in the bucket.

There's also the possibility that you're mafia in league with him, inventing the sheep thing in order to protect. Actually, I would wager that's what's going on, I mean again you ignore a pretty solid case on Hado for this hypothetical argument that assumes he must be town because he did something that appeared Town.

Not very convincing.

Well, I gotta get go to bed and go to work tomorrow. But I'll be back tomorrow. :D
 

redbaron

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I just don't see how you can think that trumps the case on him at this point. It's very likely he catch onto you and wanted to make it known how Town he was. I mean that was my read on him at the beginning, that he was really trying to appear Town. Yeah, that doesn't mean he's not, but too much pressure is also kind of odd.

Anyway, that can go for Town Hado or Mafia Hado. Really if it convinced you that much over the case on him, you've got another drop in the bucket.

There's also the possibility that you're mafia in league with him, inventing the sheep thing in order to protect. Actually, I would wager that's what's going on, I mean again you ignore a pretty solid case on Hado for this hypothetical argument that assumes he must be town because he did something that appeared Town.

Not very convincing.

Well, I gotta get go to bed and go to work tomorrow. But I'll be back tomorrow. :D
Where is this solid case on Hado? Can you present it to me?

All I see is people saying there's a solid case on Hado, while ignoring Sinny and Gopher.

Also tell me: why does it feel so much harder to lynch Hado than Gopher right now? Does that not ring alarm bells in your head? If not then I'm not sure what will. The Hado-wagon reeks of bullshit - but if it really comes down to that or a no-lynch then I'll do it - and if hado flips red, I'll legitimately drop my case on Gopher because I don't buy a Gopher-Hado bus.

But stop giving Sinny a free pass right now. I'm going to go do other stuff and I'll be back later to talk more.
 

redbaron

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Also tell me: why does it feel so much harder to lynch Hado than Gopher right now? Does that not ring alarm bells in your head? If not then I'm not sure what will.
EBWOP: It feels much harder to lynch Gopher. If I jumped on the Hado-wagon he could be lynched at this point.
 

PmjPmj

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@PMJ
I withhold some views. Tactically. Previous times I've withheld have turned out okay right?

While still withholding 10%, I've still contributed a hell (and I mean a metric fucking hell) of a lot more than you. Or most people here even. It's pretty obvious I'm not withholding because I'm afraid to post. So you keep focusing on the fact that I'm not giving 100% while still not reaching half of the 90% I have given freely.

Not to mention that as mafia I could easily avoid giving useful answers to these questions without arousing suspicion.

For example, just not mentioning Blarraun, instead of saying specifically that I have some thoughts on Blarraun that I'm not giving. See how much easier that would have been for a scum Hado?
Why do you keep bringing previous games in to this? I wasn't privy to them, and I certainly don't want to refer back to them. Why would I? What a weak defence, honestly. "Oh, I was like X in the last game, so this must mean X in this game too!"

:facepalm:

You've claimed to be, and clearly act as, pro town - yet you also openly admit that you're withholding cases. Why? How does this benefit the town? Let's say that you ARE town (you aren't) and you have some decent case to put out there, but you decide to withhold it and subsequently get NKed (thanks for explaining that). What good does that do the town? You should be getting this information out there, preferably sooner rather than later.

Your reticence doesn't make sense (I don’t buy that you’re afraid; you’ve been larger than life for most of the game), and you're clearly sufficiently invested in this game / have previously had enough spare time to build cases and contribute them. So, again:

:facepalm:

All of this prancing around you do with regards to "I didn't have to say this; I wouldn’t have said that if I was X!”… the whole nature of the game is subterfuge. You're supposed to fucking lie if you’re mafia. Stop acting like you're oblivious to this. Just because you appear to occasionally have the town's best interests at heart (your own assertions) does not necessarily mean that is true. Obviously. Having a paddy and regurgitating the same old 'I AM A TOWN!' nonsense is a weak ass defence with zero credibility. Especially since you have pursued at least one townie to his/her demise.

I don't have all the answers. It's day two. I'm working on limited time and limited data. All I can say for sure is that out of everyone, you stick out the most to me. I think you're playing a clever game, granted.


Okay well... If you don't think you can lynch me... then you need to stop trying to lynch me and fucking do something. Am I wrong in thinking that the sum total of your actions up to this point have been:

Day one: Facetious bullshit
Day two: Tunnel someone who you no longer think you can lynch

???

Because if so, you need to suspend your case on me and do something else. Come back to me later, when you've actually got something. Pushing a lynch that can't happen is a non-action. ATM town has no reason to think you town, because you did nothing day one and now you're doing effectively nothing day two. A vote on me may as well not be a vote at all if you can't get me lynched.

At first (okay not at first, but more recently) I thought you townish because your actions are consistent with someone who identifies with the INTJ profile: Confident reads that are maladaptive if the complexity of the environment exceeds their ability to intuit it. But I now also see the possibility of you just using tunneling on me as an excuse not to provide any more ways to read you, and a way to disrupt town. I mean, there's precedent that I'm an easy villain since last game right? Sinny tunneled me all game and she was town right? If I were looking for a low effort way to disrupt town while also concealing my actions, fixating on one high profile member and tunneling the shit out of them for the first few days would be a good way to do it.
Cute. “Shift your vote to someone else; don’t vote for me! What’s the point?” Plus, more BS about previous games I couldn’t give a shit about.

There’s every point in voting for you.

This game isn’t too complex to intuit (nice stab at my intelligence there, bucko; you try operating on 3-4 hours of sleep every night for a period of months :mad:). The intuitions may (may) be misguided, but I sincerely doubt that. I know what I’m seeing here. Your behaviour is off. It could be inexperience, or it could be that you’re trying to hide something. I don’t know for sure, but what I do know is that right now, you stand out the most to me, head and shoulders above anyone else. I have noted why in previous posts and implored that other people investigate you if they are so inclined. I have also voted twice for you in a row… you know, when you were too busy voting to off townsfolk.

You aren’t an impossible lynch. None of us are - and more people are beginning to get on to your bullshit. So no, I won’t do anything additional. Not yet. I want to see where this goes; I’m sticking to my guns, because I’m convinced that when you swing, you’ll be revealed as Mafia.

The YouTube video will be a thing if I’m wrong. You will get to hear my shitty northern accent in all its glory ;)

Also, what’s all this about tunnelling? Get a grip and stop playing the victim card, you poor, precious snowflake. I suspect you, I have highlighted why and voted for you. Other players subsequently made cases for you and have also since voted for you. I see no reason to further elaborate. Suck it and see, as they say. If you’re expecting me to divine some kind of mystical insight into the true nature of your role, I’m sorry to say that it isn’t going to happen. This is the nature of the game: see bullshit; call bullshit.

I like how you keep trying to cast doubts on me because I haven’t contributed too much in the way of arguments against other people. Why would I? I see you as the biggest threat, ergo I will pursue you. This does not make me suspect: it makes me focused. I’m fucking Ni, get used to it.

It’s day two. Things are going to get a lot more complex, and patterns will be revealed. Actions, as they say, speak louder than words. Until then, I’m going with my gut. I’m sorry if that offends the more analytical thinkers here who have the time to sit and probe every little word. I don’t. I navigate RL with my gut, and it never lets me down. Will that transfer across to a game of Mafia?

…only time will tell…

*vanishes into a cloud of smoke*

(p.s. it totally has in the past).

Sorry if that’s a bit rambly. I realised you had addressed me in two posts, and had to re-edit some things to accommodate the new data.

TL;DR - I'm sticking to my guns, get used to it. IF I HAVE TIME (I might do this afternoon) I will further review the case and alter my views if needs be. But I doubt that'll be the case.
 

PmjPmj

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I hate to bring typology in to this, but it may allow people to better understand my method of playing. I don't really care if you have doubts (make a case, if you do) but thought it worth mentioning, as some of you clearly don't get it.

Most TiNe / NeTi individuals (i.e. most of the people here) will spend time analysing the details within posts and extrapolating probabilities from them; NiTe on the other hand sits back, half-absorbs information, focuses more on the apparent/emerging overall and then mulls it over internally for a while. It doesn't look so much at the details, it looks at patterns and the tone/feel/whatever. Then, Te eventually comes on line and is all "FUCKING RIGHT".

In truth, it's a comparatively sloppy technique for this game - but it works in RL with aplomb, so don't be too quick to discredit me on lack of data. I understand that it might make me look fishy as fuck, but give me some time to get things together. I need to observe, and think on things.

Also RedBaron: the Hado bus is mine. Gopher jumped on with a more detail account of Hado's fuckery, is all.

As an aside, why would you drop your case against Gopher if (when) Hado turns out to be red? Have you never heard of the sacrificial lamb in order to fortify a person's position as 'town'?

Of course you have. Stop bullshitting us with your 2D thinking.

You're next, bucko. Shifty AF.
 
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