Fi <-> Ti

[Anthile]

Yes, I know that there are are already several threads about this topic here.

My latest observations have lead me to the assumption that very high Fi is almost undistinguishable from very high Ti and vice versa. Same with very low Fi or Ti.
I think that this manifests into the acquisition of traits that are associated with the other introverted function. So the point with the most traits of one function would be 75%.
To show what I mean I made a (rather crappy) graphic:

Discuss.

 

[Sugarpop]

It's a nice graph, but could you elaborate a bit on said observations?

 

[Deleted member 1424]

Quite a few people feel that their Fi is fairly developed (order of functions thread). This contradicts the standard order of functions for INTPs, that places Fi at the very bottom. I tend to think that people with high Fi's or Ti's will reach similar conclusions through vastly different methods.

 

[GarmGarf]

It's a nice graph, but could you elaborate a bit on said observations?

Seconded.


I will state though that "ultimate* forgiveness" is the same thing as "ultimate* tolerance", in practice.

(*= "unconditional, instant and unlimited")

 

[Beat Mango]

I don't know what you mean. Fi and Ti are pretty much completely incompatible.

 

[Anthile]

Quite a few people feel that their Fi is fairly developed (order of functions thread). This contradicts the standard order of functions for INTPs, that places Fi at the very bottom. I tend to think that people with high Fi's or Ti's will reach similar conclusions through vastly different methods.

That's what I mean. Fi is is the so-called devil or demon function for the INTP which means its his worst function and he tries to avoid it whenever it is possible.
The same is true about INFPs but, well, with Ti.
"Whenever I use it, it ends in a disaster" is an often heard sentence about the devil function - but as you see, an annormal high amount of INTP claims to have functional or even good Fi. How is that possible? First, I think most mistyping is based on a lack of knowledge about the MBTI theory and how the functions work.
But what I used for my observation was the function sorter where you just choose your preferences. This lead me to the conclusion that Ti and Fi have to be similar despite the fact that they should be polar opposites.

I imagine the Ti-Fi as a starting point. Both INTP and INFP start at the same point which splits into two different paths. While the INTP wanders through Ti-land while the INFP wanders through Fi-land. Some of them settle down along the road while others reach the endpoint, where both paths unite again and INTP and INFP meet up to show each other that 1+1 and 4-2 are both 2. Or so.

 

[Beat Mango]

as you see, an annormal high amount of INTP claims to have functional or even good Fi. How is that possible?

Bad testing. If they are similar, then Jung's whole theory starts to look shaky - Ti and Fi, in theory, negate each other.

 

[Ermine]

Fi and Ti are radically different, but also very similar in that they're introverted methods of thinking. I tend to test as having high Fi (second after Ne for me). I've learned to use some typically Fi skills, but it's really just me trying to understand my feelings and the feelings of others using Ti. Apart from that skill, I'm abysmally inept in the Fi department, especially when it comes to things like changing my mood/mindset from within or totally trusting my feelings to bring me to conclusions. I just can't.

 

[fullerene]

well, Anthile's not the first to say this, BM. Blackwing (seems like the Decaf of INTPc) said that... I think it was Keirsey? said that everything that has been written about Ti could have been written about Fi as well. In trying to help someone type themselves as INTP or INFP on another forum, Decaf also said it was really tricky to try and distinguish one from the other in someone.

Anthile is the first I've heard of to suggest that they're like two paths that eventually reunite if you progress far enough down one of them. I think this is vaguely true, because if you ask "why?" enough (as any good INTP seems to), you'll eventually ask "why do I care about the things that I do? Why do I care enough to follow some theories and learn about them, but not others?" If you're trying to figure out what makes something tick, you'll eventually ask "what makes a life worth living?" There may be something that does that, and there may not be... but you will eventually come to values and have to start thinking about them

Approached from values, your Feeler will eventually have to balance how important Truth is when it comes into contact with other values (like, say, "I should avoid hurting other peoples' feelings"). If Truth catches their eye as important, which it probably will, at least to some extent, they have to go and learn how to find it, figure out what makes things alike or different from each other (making finer distinctions), etc.

A Feeler who values truth is like an INTP, and a Thinker who focuses on understanding themselves and the relationships between people is like an INFP. Both enjoy ironing out internal contradictions while thinking (as they're both introverted judging dominant, they seek a "whole" internal theory that's consistent and aligns with whatever they're studying). I can definitely see where Anthile's coming from, with this, and I think there's a good deal of truth in it.

I'm unsure whether that officially casts doubt on Jung's whole theory, though. I've never read anything by the psychologists who started all of this, themselves, and of course we all know how woefully deficient internet-MBTI resources are.

 

[echoplex]

^Good points. I've often pondered the question "why does truth matter?" "Just because" never seems a good enough answer, although it often seems to be only one I can find, lol. I tend to think that it's hard for Ti and Fi to truly be opposites, because even the most objective, detached thinker (Ti) is still wrought with subjectivity because that's simply the human condition. In that sense, Ti doesn't even really exist -- it's just what we call our attempts at detached judgment.

So, I guess what I'm saying is that you could say that Ti is never a truly "complete" function, in that a little bit of Fi always manages to sneak in and spoil the punch. And I certainly think that a person's preference for introverted judging is always more clear than whether that judging is T or F.

But, hmmm, this could be wrong, on second thought. If the MBTI theory as I understand it is correct, then the moments when we fail to stay detached and objective would fall under Fe. We may confuse it for Fi, but it's probably still Fe. I think it's easy for us to confuse those functions with one another, especially considering how foreign they are to us. lol

 

[Artifice Orisit]

My latest observations have lead me to the assumption that very high Fi is almost undistinguishable from very high Ti and vice versa. Same with very low Fi or Ti.

Fi (introverted feeling) is different from Fe (extroverted feeling), in that the former is one's personal, secret emotions, the true emotional self hidden behind the mask/persona, and the latter is one's demonstrated emotions, those that are publicly displayed and can so be freely/directly interacted with by other people. Likewise Ti represents deep thoughts like secrets, introspection, symbolic analysis and paranoia; whilst Te represents the faster more dynamic surface thoughts, wit basically, e.g. how an ENTP can quickly come up with hundreds of highly imaginative ideas, but it takes the slower, deeper intellect of an INTP to accurately comprehend the individual worth of each idea with respect to the situation as a whole.

Now the point I'm trying to make is that Fi/Ti people are both highly passionate about their inner self, the Fi having a deep, complex sea of emotions and the Ti having a deep complex system of thought. They both have deep reaching, complex minds, and they both retreat into these depths when dealing with their thoughts and emotions; in effect a Ti is better suited to understand a Fi, than a Fe which at first glance seems like the more logical choice. This is because the Ti and Fi operate at similar cognitive levels, whereas Fe's and Te's, although sharing the same major function, cannot grasp the depth from which the introverts are coming from.

An Fi's emotions are too complex for an Fe to understand.
An Ti's thoughts are too deep for an Te to bother with.

I fear the amount of time I've spent socialising here has ruined my INTPness, and I've noticed as I become more of an ENTP it's becoming harder to muster the necessary patience to delve down to the necessary cognitive depths for proper philosophical discussions.
But I like it here.

 

[Beat Mango]

well, Anthile's not the first to say this, BM. Blackwing (seems like the Decaf of INTPc) said that... I think it was Keirsey? said that everything that has been written about Ti could have been written about Fi as well. In trying to help someone type themselves as INTP or INFP on another forum, Decaf also said it was really tricky to try and distinguish one from the other in someone.

Anthile is the first I've heard of to suggest that they're like two paths that eventually reunite if you progress far enough down one of them. I think this is vaguely true, because if you ask "why?" enough (as any good INTP seems to), you'll eventually ask "why do I care about the things that I do? Why do I care enough to follow some theories and learn about them, but not others?" If you're trying to figure out what makes something tick, you'll eventually ask "what makes a life worth living?" There may be something that does that, and there may not be... but you will eventually come to values and have to start thinking about them

Approached from values, your Feeler will eventually have to balance how important Truth is when it comes into contact with other values (like, say, "I should avoid hurting other peoples' feelings"). If Truth catches their eye as important, which it probably will, at least to some extent, they have to go and learn how to find it, figure out what makes things alike or different from each other (making finer distinctions), etc.

A Feeler who values truth is like an INTP, and a Thinker who focuses on understanding themselves and the relationships between people is like an INFP. Both enjoy ironing out internal contradictions while thinking (as they're both introverted judging dominant, they seek a "whole" internal theory that's consistent and aligns with whatever they're studying). I can definitely see where Anthile's coming from, with this, and I think there's a good deal of truth in it.

I'm unsure whether that officially casts doubt on Jung's whole theory, though. I've never read anything by the psychologists who started all of this, themselves, and of course we all know how woefully deficient internet-MBTI resources are.

Good post. Ti and Fi are both rational so they both deal with the same substance, in that sense they're very similar. Just like N and S are different modes of perceiving, T and F are different modes of thinking. But to say one can be high in one while also being high in the other, it just doesn't make sense. I think you and Ermine explained it well, though.

^Good points. I've often pondered the question "why does truth matter?" "Just because" never seems a good enough answer, although it often seems to be only one I can find, lol. I tend to think that it's hard for Ti and Fi to truly be opposites, because even the most objective, detached thinker (Ti) is still wrought with subjectivity because that's simply the human condition. In that sense, Ti doesn't even really exist -- it's just what we call our attempts at detached judgment.

You're not wrong, but neither was Jung - he was well aware of the subjective nature of any introverted function, in fact you could say that's what defines it as being introversion. In keeping with his view on opposites in general (and he did see it as a significant issue), Fi and Ti are kind of, different sides of the same coin.

 

[fullerene]

whilst Te represents the faster more dynamic surface thoughts, wit basically, e.g. how an ENTP can quickly come up with hundreds of highly imaginative ideas, but it takes the slower, deeper intellect of an INTP to accurately comprehend the individual worth of each idea with respect to the situation as a whole.

er... ENTPs are Ne/Ti, and Ne seems to be responsible for imaginative ideas and quick wit. It takes a xxTJ type to have Te.

I think that the rest of that was pretty right, though.


The other thing I'd add is that Fi isn't all emotions. Fi isn't even primarily emotions. It's a really unfortunate word-choice, to call it Feeling. Fi is such that decisions are made, but logical reasons that "everyone" theoretically accepts can't always be given. Arguments for valuing one thing over another are argued from the common ground. If there's no common value, where two INFPs can say "we both agree that living things should not be unnecessarily harmed," or something like that, then they'll talk past each other on a "higher-level" issue like "should we be eating meat, when there are abundant vegetables available?"

Even worse, those higher-level arguments will unearth the deeper ones. You might never know that the other person thinks that enjoying their food is more important than an animal's suffering, from day to day life (after all, they could just have not thought about that issue very much)... but once the relatively-minor (varies from Fi to Fi, of course) argument about slaughterhouses pops up, one is sure to say "if you think that this is ok, then you must also think that it's ok to hit children if they're acting up"--or something like that. Since the other Fi-person is (or wants to be) consistent, they'll probably agree... in which case the argument has moved into a deeper level. Now they know that they not only disagree about animal-treatment, but also the issue of how children should be treated.

By the nature of Fi, the value system is like a hierarchy... you could imagine a cone resting on a few core principles, and being built up into multitudes of tiny important tidbits. When argument starts up about how we should be acting/thinking/whatever, they immediately dig down into deeper, "more stable" levels, cross their fingers, and hope that the other person sees the absurdity of their views. The downside is that if there's no common ground, they'll end up hating each other's guts and thinking the other one a repulsive savage. Rule of thumb: don't argue with Fi unless you know the person's mature and you respect them.

You could parody this with the INTP "I think, therefore I am. This is a self-evident truth... so I should figure out how things work from there." When an argument sparks up, you dig down into deeper-rooted reasons--which are really nothing more than "things you consider more obvious than the 'higher-level' argument that's happening", and continue until you either find common ground, work your way back up, and agree... or else find that you don't agree on what's self-evident, and marvel at how someone could deny something so obvious.

Both sides really use logic.... but it's logic pointing in different directions. Fi drives into the more-clearly-important things for reasons to support itself, and Ti drives into the more-self-evident ones. INTPs are kidding themselves if they think they're actually objective--impartial, perhaps, when it comes to judging things... but not objective--but I think most people here know that.

Equally, when they're thinking about things--whether seeking what's important or what's true--both Ti and Fi try to understand how their own biases might affect their judgment. I think that the common point of view is that Ti tries to remove the person from its decisions, but INFPs are always considering how they feel about things and using those to make their decisions. Largely, I think that's just because they don't have reasons, but they get answers from somewhere, so people just call whatever they use "feelings". Having seen/talked to bunches of INFPs now who say things like "oh... I really think I should be doing X. ...but no, I really want to do X, so that's definitely affecting my ability to decide rightly, and I only thought it was a slightly better thing to do than not-X... so it's more than likely that the fact that I want X is tipping the scales enough to make not-X actually a better thing to do... etc," I think saying that they're driven by their feelings at all is wrong. In certain ways, they seek to detach certain parts of themselves from their decisions as much as we do. I think we're just a little more hardcore about it, or try to detach even more parts of ourselves from our decisions than they do, or something.

Again, I still think Anthile made a very... likely, hypothesis.

 

[Anthile]

Lor once said that the F should be replaced with a V - for Vendetta values and I sort of agree with that.


Otherwise I almost completely agree with what Cryptonia said so far.

 

[echoplex]

Yes, F values vs. T principles.

 

[walfin]

I've also noticed a higher proportion of out-of-function-order INTPs here. Someone (I think snowqueen) mentioned that we mightn't fit in INTPc because of that.

Strong Ti and Fi results in a fair amount of indecision, I should think. That is, higher P (and possibly higher I as well). It's like, I think this is a bad course of action, but it feels right, so what should I do? And when both are equally strong the person can't decide on the better course of action to take, which results in inaction (though in practice people eventually choose one thing over another, depending on which function takes precedence).

I think Fi also encompasses understanding your own feelings, or attempting to. An INTP without high Fi, I posit, would probably be more dismissive of his/her own feelings (thinking they'll soon pass), while an INTP with high Fi would seek to understand exactly what (s)he is feeling (and not just why).

Yes, F values vs. T principles.

Yes, but why can't we have both?

T logical deductions made from F values would be an example.

 

[Ermine]

^ Another example would be deriving values from principles and deductive reasoning. This would probably explain much of my Fi-ness.

 

[Jesin]

Hmm. Ermine, what's the difference between "values" and "principles" in this context?

 

[Ermine]

Hmm. Ermine, what's the difference between "values" and "principles" in this context?

value - relative worth, merit, or importance

principle - a fundamental, primary, or general law or truth from which others are derived, a personal or specific basis of conduct or management

dictionary.com

I decide what I value based on my principles, experience, and reason.

 

[snowqueen]

I'm finding this thread fascinating in light of my current situation (having broken up with an INFP and wishing I hadn't) He broke up with me because 'it didn't feel right' - actually he said he would like to return to being friends for a while but I freaked out. I've been on a long inner journey into my thoughts and reluctantly have come to the conclusion that he was absolutely correct. He got there immediately with his emotions. Wow.

I have a new-found respect for Fi now. Basically, I have realised that we still don't know each other well enough to date yet and need to get to know each other better. Most specifically I need to give him the opportunity to dislike me. For various reasons which I won't bore you with, when I meet new people I tend to present a fairly sanitised version of myself. I know this is natural, but actually it's fairly unnatural too. When one dates off online dating sites, you are kind of straight into dating and so you have to try to impress the other person to a certain extent. When one meets people in social situations, they kind of see you being yourself, so then if someone asks you out, it's likely they have seen some of your flaws and don't mind them.

I'm hoping he'll give me another chance to get to know him as we've still been corresponding. I hope it's not too late. Even if it didn't work out, I would like the opportunity. Now I am absolutely fascinated by how he did that!

 

[Zero]

Whaaat?
This is the most confusing thread I've yet to stumble into. . .

I would think someone with a very high Ti wouldn't look anything like Fi. It would make more sense if it was opposite. It makes sense to say an INTP with a high Fi might look like an INFP or an INFP with a high Ti might look like an INTP. However, as long as the Fi or Ti remains dominant that should define their "type".

Because both are introverted, they may be hard to distinguish in a literal sense. However, they should be clearly distinct from a reflection POV.

Introverted Feeling - Evaluating importance and maintaining congruence. It is often hard to put words to the values used to make introverted Feeling judgments since they are often associated with images and feeling-tones more than words. As a cognitive process, it often serves as a filter for information that matches what is valued and wanted. We engage in the process of introverted Feeling when a value is compromised and we think, "sometimes, some things just have to be said." On the other hand, most of the time this process works "in private" and is seldom expressed directly. Actions often speak louder than words. This process helps us know when people are being fake or insincere or if they are basically good. It is like having an internal sense of the "essence" of a person or a project, and reading another person or action or project with fine distinctions among feeling-tones. When the other person's values and beliefs are congruent with our own, we are inclined to feel kinship with them and want to connect with them.

Introverted Thinking - Analyzing, categorizing, and figuring out how something works. Introverted Thinking often involves finding just the right word to clearly express an idea concisely, crisply, and to the point. Using introverted Thinking is like having an internal sense of the essential qualities of something, noticing the fine distinctions that make it what it is and then naming it. It also involves an internal reasoning process of deriving subcategories of classes and sub-principles of general principles. These can then be used in problem solving, analysis, and refining of a product or an idea. This process is evidenced in behaviors like taking things or ideas apart to figure out how they work. The analysis involves looking at different sides of an issue and seeing where there is inconsistency. In so doing, there is a search for a "leverage point" that will fix problems with the least amount of effort or damage to the system.

Ref: http://www.geocities.com/lifexplore/jft.htm

High Ti would clearly be somewhat disconnected from the social world. High Fi would be opposite, in that high Fi should result in perceiving other people's moods and sincerity.

 

[Aiss]

I think it's all about Ti and Fi both being introverted judging functions. All of the types have one of those, but those with well-developed Ti/Fi may seem somewhat similar on the outside precisely because their main judging function is introverted, not because it works in a similar way.

It seems to be the same thing as in INTJ and ENTP both being "similar" to INTP. INTJ and INTP are similar from the outside - one would think Ne/Fe vs Se/Te interaction would be enough to make a difference, but in this case it obviously doesn't. However, their way of thinking is different. On the other hand, ENTPs are at the fist glance different from INTPs, tending to be more sociable and less concerned with analyzing everything. Yet their way of thinking is much closer to that of an INTP.

One description I found of Fi/Ti stuck in my mind: Ti makes decisions based on what makes all the pieces fit together, whereas Fi makes decisions based on what is right or wrong according to the belief system. "Belief system" doesn't necessarily refer to religion, it may be personal philosophy, ideology or any hierarchy of values. This may include other people (for example "I don't want to hurt anyone more than I want to gain something for myself").

What I'm trying to say it's that Fi/Ti division is less about principles and more about integrity; a Fi person will be more consistent about things like altruism or egoism, whereas with a Ti person it's likely to depend on a situation. For example, if a Fi person places another's needs before their own, they're much more likely to be uncompromising about it and/or sacrifice their own needs for them. Analogically, if a Fi person placed themselves above others, they would probably be unwilling to sacrifice anything for them even if the cost wasn't really high. On the other hand, whereas a Ti person may have a belief system, they're more likely to consider costs and benefits of each action separately. The benefits are still defined by a belief system, obviously.

 

[Jennywocky]

Fi and Ti are radically different, but also very similar in that they're introverted methods of thinking.

That's the main similarity. As Ji functions, the only difference between them is the ruleset that is used -- the Ti ruleset is drawn from observation of the external world as perceived by the INTP (which is why INTPs often can communicate with each other easily if they are in the same environment, they derive the same ruleset if their vision is generally clear), while the Fi ruleset might or might not mirror the Ti ruleset.

Apart from that skill, I'm abysmally inept in the Fi department, especially when it comes to things like changing my mood/mindset from within or totally trusting my feelings to bring me to conclusions. I just can't.

Same here. I cannot do it, although I'm learning. I'm in mid-life now, though. It took me years to get to that point, and I still feel inept. I will sometimes get intuitive flashes or actually perceive my values and feelings... but then am unsure what to do with them, and making decisions with feelings as a guide is very difficult, I feel like I'm walking on thin ice. My instinct is always to leap back to the Ti ruleset that I trust implicitly, and I still use it to "judge" my Fi ruleset (which is not what an INFP does, I think they use their values to judge OTHER rulesets!)

I have found that I get along very well with who I view as mature INFPs... we generally do come to the same conclusions about things... but then again, we both connect with Ne and see the same possibilities, so the Ji functions are not the ones taking the lead. Ne-style perception enables us to be open to the same possibilities and seeing the limitations of our respective Ji functions.

I think a Ti-heavy INTP and an Fi-heavy INFP can really butt heads. I've seen it happen. Even with some other INFP friends who are more traditional Fi, I can get into some very heated discussions with them; they seem to just hold particular values that i do not see as supported adequately by evidence, hence I can't derive them as true, hence I have an issue seeing them as true.

One description I found of Fi/Ti stuck in my mind: Ti makes decisions based on what makes all the pieces fit together, whereas Fi makes decisions based on what is right or wrong according to the belief system. "Belief system" doesn't necessarily refer to religion, it may be personal philosophy, ideology or any hierarchy of values. This may include other people (for example "I don't want to hurt anyone more than I want to gain something for myself").

Very very true! I find sometimes that I disappoint myself in that I feel I should be more "moral" or more "loving" or whatever else and have a consistent morality, but I don't -- the actions I chose in the situation depend primarily on what makes the pieces work together the best and make the most sense. Sometimes this will align with particular social values, sometimes it will fly in the face of them... and I don't CARE, I am still inclined to do/endorse what fits together the best. This was really hard for me, spending so much of my life in a religious environment where specific morals and behaviors are dictated; I constantly felt like people were misapplying doctrines and values, where the situation actually should be resolved in other ways or some things that were derided actually were not bad in a particular situation (such as divorce).

Sometimes Fi people have value systems that align with Ti pragmatism, though. ("People must be flexible and open to others' individual needs!" for example.)

What I'm trying to say it's that Fi/Ti division is less about principles and more about integrity; a Fi person will be more consistent about things like altruism or egoism, whereas with a Ti person it's likely to depend on a situation. For example, if a Fi person places another's needs before their own, they're much more likely to be uncompromising about it and/or sacrifice their own needs for them. Analogically, if a Fi person placed themselves above others, they would probably be unwilling to sacrifice anything for them even if the cost wasn't really high. On the other hand, whereas a Ti person may have a belief system, they're more likely to consider costs and benefits of each action separately. The benefits are still defined by a belief system, obviously.

yes, I mentioned earlier that Ti people in the same environment have fairly similar rulesets, hence they can logically argue with each other to draw conclusions. There is far more variety between Fi people in terms of their specific moralities.

 

[TheHmmmm]

Quite a few people feel that their Fi is fairly developed (order of functions thread). This contradicts the standard order of functions for INTPs, that places Fi at the very bottom. I tend to think that people with high Fi's or Ti's will reach similar conclusions through vastly different methods.

I would think that this characteristic would be better shared between Ni and Ti.

Ni tends to home in on whatever answer/solution makes the most immediate sense and the sharper their intuition becomes, the more accurate they become. This contrasts Ti which explores every possible answer before deciding on one and the sharper their thinking becomes, the more likely they are to pick out the most accurate and thorough solution. If two people who use Ni and Ti respectively come together, they could very well come up with the same conclusion (dependent on their effectiveness in using their function) using vastly different methods.

Fi mostly deals with ethics, morality, etc. that users utilize when making judgment calls and in arguments, as per the "ethos" portion of rhetoric. As such, I fail to see how Ti, which is wholly objective, would come to the same conclusions.

This is all speaking from my experience as an INTJ and what little experience I've had with INTP's.