Enlightenment. So simple, yet so difficult.

[Milo]

I feel like I have figured out enlightenment. I'll give you guys the realizations that I've come to recently that has brought me out of my melancholy attitude.

The first one is symbolized by the Tree of Life. Which to me just shows you the truth about life, we all live, and we all die. We must accept death and let go of our fear of it. This allows us to be more relaxed and let go of worrying about using our time the best we can, which allows us to fully live in the moment.

Then the next thing I realized after that is that I don't need to find a concrete purpose for my life because it is just to take part in that circle of life and act according to my own nature. Fulfilling the desires that naturally occur to me and not the ones that were ingrained into me by society. With this, my ego (My definition: the things you pride yourself in) just seem to go away and you no longer try to prove yourself to the world or to yourself that you are worthy of living because you already are because of the true concept exemplified in the tree of life. You're conflicted thoughts begin to disappear into a relaxed state where you only think about the immediately important things. You start to live even more in the moment as this concept broadens in your mind. (Yeah basically it all comes down to losing all anxiety and worries of the future and past, but I am just trying to expand this idea for you guys to comprehend it better. It's pretty difficult at first, but maybe that was just me)

Once pride is no longer a factor in ones life, one loses what most people think of as "selfishness" where people are primarily focused on satisfaction manifested from the outside world rather than just acting exactly like who they are. Society is what causes this. This may be what the bible refers to as "the sins of our fathers" --Just a guess. Don't quote me on that! haha.

You may be able to see this when you observe the behavior of children who are not yet indoctrinated by their significant others, who were also indoctrinated as children and so on until the origin of consciousness/the birth of the ego. Notices that they are extremely happy. My theory is that we are all born in an "enlightened" state because we are not trying to identify ourselves/feed the ego, we are just so immersed in the here and now and enjoying everything without thinking about what others think of us/if we are fulfilling our purpose/focusing on getting as much fun out of our activities as much as possible.

Is this pretty clear? Let me know!

 

[Duxwing]

I feel like I have figured out enlightenment. I'll give you guys the realizations that I've come to recently that has brought me out of my melancholy attitude.

The first one is symbolized by the Tree of Life. Which to me just shows you the truth about life, we all live, and we all die. We must accept death and let go of our fear of it. This allows us to be more relaxed and let go of worrying about using our time the best we can, which allows us to fully live in the moment.

Then the next thing I realized after that is that I don't need to find a concrete purpose for my life because it is just to take part in that circle of life and act according to my own nature. Fulfilling the desires that naturally occur to me and not the ones that were ingrained into me by society. With this, my ego (My definition: the things you pride yourself in) just seem to go away and you no longer try to prove yourself to the world or to yourself that you are worthy of living because you already are because of the true concept exemplified in the tree of life. You're conflicted thoughts begin to disappear into a relaxed state where you only think about the immediately important things. You start to live even more in the moment as this concept broadens in your mind. (Yeah basically it all comes down to losing all anxiety and worries of the future and past, but I am just trying to expand this idea for you guys to comprehend it better. It's pretty difficult at first, but maybe that was just me)

Once pride is no longer a factor in ones life, one loses what most people think of as "selfishness" where people are primarily focused on satisfaction manifested from the outside world rather than just acting exactly like who they are. Society is what causes this. This may be what the bible refers to as "the sins of our fathers" --Just a guess. Don't quote me on that! haha.

You may be able to see this when you observe the behavior of children who are not yet indoctrinated by their significant others, who were also indoctrinated as children and so on until the origin of consciousness/the birth of the ego. Notices that they are extremely happy. My theory is that we are all born in an "enlightened" state because we are not trying to identify ourselves/feed the ego, we are just so immersed in the here and now and enjoying everything without thinking about what others think of us/if we are fulfilling our purpose/focusing on getting as much fun out of our activities as much as possible.

Is this pretty clear? Let me know!

Well, certainly, the Void isn't nearly so depressing if you ignore it. Once can't just look away from the universe's lack of inherent meaning-- doing so is ignorance, not philosophy, and certainly not enlightenment. Instead, I suggest that you integrate the inherent meaninglessness of existence into your logical framework, for it will be much more robust under scrutiny if a coping strategy for the Nothingness is built right in. Nevertheless, I see promise in your ideas, so keep on trying; perhaps you'll find the way for the rest of us.

-Duxwing

 

[Milo]

Ahh, I forgot the most important part of it!!
You have to realize that all of your thoughts and memories aren't who you are. They are just a bunch of information that you can use if you want. Pretty much everyone in the world identifies these thoughts and memories as who they are, and from this regrets, disappointment, confusion, and maybe some seemingly positive things arise from this false identity one has made for one's self.

You have your body (which is the physical part of you), you have your mind (which is all of your memories and thoughts), and you have your Self (which is what you really are--it contains no emotions or feelings of any sort, it is just sort of your instinctual self that just reacts to things that are being thought of/seen/sensed. So, when you are constantly thinking and not realizing that this self is separate from the mind and body. So you put the self under duress because it is being confused with your memories and thoughts of who you think you are. The instinctual part of you then becomes constantly under stress, but if you realize that your thoughts and memories are not who you are, you can calm this instinctual self and stop it from reacting and stressing out from all these false threats that your mind is creating for it.

 

[Milo]

Well, certainly, the Void isn't nearly so depressing if you ignore it. Once can't just look away from the universe's lack of inherent meaning-- doing so is ignorance, not philosophy, and certainly not enlightenment. Instead, I suggest that you integrate the inherent meaninglessness of existence into your logical framework, for it will be much more robust under scrutiny if a coping strategy for the Nothingness is built right in. Nevertheless, I see promise in your ideas, so keep on trying; perhaps you'll find the way for the rest of us.

-Duxwing

Ummm. I wouldn't say it is avoiding it. It is the truth that we all will live and die. It's basically telling you to stop looking for meaning because we are alive and life is meant to die, so we must both accept death and accept that we should stop looking for meaning because we are already doing what we are supposed to do. Is that kind of analogous to what you were thinking?

 

[ℜεмїηїs¢εη¢ε]

It's an interesting choice when one realizes that nothing matters. Do you get depressed or get overjoyed by the possibilities of fun one can have? I think I'm somewhere in between at the moment although I usually move around quite a bit on that scale.

 

[The Introvert]

I agree wholeheartedly about NOT fearing the void. Really, I look at death as not only imminent, but comforting. This isn't to say that I'm ready for death; I'm just saying that death is simply a part of life. Who is to say that death even should be something to be afraid of? I'm not afraid of living, why should death (which again, is just a facet of living) be any more terrifying?

If you think about it, many cultures even celebrate death/ the afterlife (i.e. Dia de los muertos, etc.). It's something that I know many people have difficulty coming to terms with, but at least the way I view it, dying is not something that I am worried about, or need to be.

 

[snafupants]

I'm just saying that death is simply a part of life.

I almost get tired of disabusing people of this misconception.

Death does not occur within the realm of life. It bookends life but death itself is not life. On the contrary, by definition, death is the absence of life.

Try experiencing death while breathing. You might mean that the foreboding knowledge of death is part of one's mental life or the passing of someone else occurs within your life.

I'm guessing, though, that you use the phrase "part of life" figuratively, yes? Meaning within ontology there is an ostensive end and beginning, no?

That seems reasonable and warranted.

 

[The Introvert]

I almost get tired of disabusing people of this misconception.

Death does not occur within the realm of life. It bookends life but death itself is not life. On the contrary, by definition, death is the absence of life.

Try experiencing death while breathing. You might mean that the foreboding knowledge of death is part of one's mental life or the passing of someone else occurs within your life.

I'm guessing, though, that you use the phrase "part of life" figuratively, yes? Meaning within ontology there is an ostensive end and beginning, no?

That seems reasonable and warranted.

I seem to have incredible difficulty explaining what I'm trying to say; what seems so simple to me

Here is a way to think about what I mean in a different light.

I see life as a collection of certain atoms working together as a system to serve a "purpose", if you will. I'm not going to delve into the "purpose" here, per se, but I'm just trying to create an image of where I'm coming from. Atoms, (and thus life) are always doing something; that is, there are always transfers of electrons, radiation, chemical reactions, etc. occuring everywhere, all the time (excluding absolute zero). With this in mind, try to understand that a certain collection of atoms can only last so long. In terms: even though certain atoms are stable, they still undergo reactions, and eventually are a part of a different system. This is what life is, no? The constant transfer of energy of some sort (both exergonic and endergonic) revolving around a central system. The system here would be a human, serving as the end product of the "collection of energies".

All systems inevitably come to an end; the bits and pieces are broken up (or sometimes kept intact) and are used in some other system. If you really want to go deep, you could say that everything is technically all part of the same system, but I'm looking on the scope of human beings/ earth, as opposed to the universe. With this said, it is easy to see that humans too are simply systems (just as everything in existence is), and thus, are made up of smaller systems, and are a part of larger systems. The components of the system will eventually wear out. Death is simply a part of life; just as the degradation of a system is simply a part of being a system.

I would like to add something else here, too, though. My question is: who is to say that there is nothing after "life"? Surely you cannot believe that the atoms that make up your body simply vanish from existence! In fact, I've read somewhere (reliable source I know) that it takes only a few years for all the cells in your body to be completely different from the ones you have now. The atoms that made up part of that system went somewhere else... into some other system. If humans are simply a specific collection of atoms (which I'm obviously trying to sell), then existence in and of itself requires the ability to transfer energy to and from our system into others... which would imply that *here comes the hippie in me* We're just a part of everything, man. Due to the fairly abundant existence of life (on earth, at least), I would argue that atoms that were once a part of my body are now a part of some other organism... Interesting to think about, no?

So, at length, I feel like I have very inadequately explained what I meant in the first place. Hopefully you'll continue to read posts of mine and try to piece together everything that I say... because surely I don't have the means/ aptitude to do it. In short, here's what I was attempting to explain above:

Just because we "die" doesn't mean that we are wiped off the face of the earth. The energy and matter that collectively is known as "you" does not vanish from existence; in fact, it is everywhere around you. Additionally, the imminence of death is surely a component of life. The fact that we even think and talk about it means that it is not only important, but essential to defining life; something is not alive if it cannot die. So, in that sense, I feel no reason to be scared of my imminent death. If anything, I feel safe knowing that in some way, shape or form, my existence and perception of "life" was coherent enough to understand that I am not only a combination of smaller somethings, but I am also individually a component of larger somethings... and to me, that's pretty cool.

 

[Milo]

I agree wholeheartedly about NOT fearing the void. Really, I look at death as not only imminent, but comforting. This isn't to say that I'm ready for death; I'm just saying that death is simply a part of life. Who is to say that death even should be something to be afraid of? I'm not afraid of living, why should death (which again, is just a facet of living) be any more terrifying?

If you think about it, many cultures even celebrate death/ the afterlife (i.e. Dia de los muertos, etc.). It's something that I know many people have difficulty coming to terms with, but at least the way I view it, dying is not something that I am worried about, or need to be.

It's not exactly death. It's running out of time. In many people's lives, there comes a point where they think they have wasted their lives because they don't feel like they've been fulfilling their purpose, but really, there is no inherent purpose, and it is extremely difficult to make that kind of decision when it is so subjective. The person is most likely going to eventually find him/herself in the same place again unless they hold on to the dillusion that they are fulfilling their purpose with some objective goal they've made up.

They main point of all of this (which I forgot to put in the initial post) is to realize that all of your thoughts and memories are not who you are. They are just a separate storage device telling you what has happened so that you may use it to your advantage. The ego (which brings one pain and very limited pleasure based on pride which is usually manifested from being better than others or being really good at something which is also why we are so vulnerable and have to create mental barriers to keep people from attacking who we are, who we identify ourselves as according to our ego, by others either defeating us or mocking the things we base our pride/who we are on) is just a side-effect of consciousness which is what brought our species to be so successful.

With the ego gone, we are no longer vulnerable. We are finally free from judgement, and our instinctual self may take over which is actually inherently selfless (I can explain that too if you guys wish).
And with no fear of death/running out of time (which should also be gone when the ego is no longer being used) our anxiety from all of our worries will be diminished and stress will only be a result of environmental factors, which is A LOT less than we have all been dealing with our entire lives because of our thoughts judging our past (memories) and being afraid of everyone else judging us at the same time only creates an almost constant amount of stress.

 

[redbaron]

*snore*

This topic of discussion is boring. But I once read a page (that I found boring) and it seems to be relevant to this (it's also boring and self-contradicting), so you might like it.

http://deoxy.org/egofalse.html

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

I see life as a collection of certain atoms working together as a system to serve a "purpose", if you will. What if there is no purpose? Evolution, for example, is random without direction; just accumulated response to stimuli and nothing more. Is the purpose to become aware that there is no purpose?

there are always transfers of electrons, radiation, chemical reactions, etc. occuring everywhere, all the time (excluding absolute zero). Actually plenty of stuff still happens assuming gravity is still in effect at absolute zero. *envisions black hole* But I'm certainly not a physicist.

This is what life is, no? The constant transfer of energy of some sort (both exergonic and endergonic) revolving around a central system. Central system? What if it's a central void? <-@Duxwing

The components of the system will eventually wear out. Death is simply a part of life; just as the degradation of a system is simply a part of being a system.

^O'rly? What if the components don't truly wear out but are merely replaced, a la "matter cannot be created nor destroyed"? Does death even exist then?

My question is: who is to say that there is nothing after "life"? Surely you cannot believe that the atoms that make up your body simply vanish from existence! It's not the atoms, it's the consciousness. WTF happens to that? (<-rhetorical. You can look through some of the Blob-N01d10ts-Cog-Architect-Agent I.-Snafu-Dux threads/posts for relevant discussion) In fact, I've read somewhere (reliable source I know) <-that yeller stuff ain't gonna cut it here, mandingo

because surely I don't have the means/ aptitude to do it. <-Self-defeatism. Kill it. WITH A GIANT FUCKING HAMMER.

Just because we "die" doesn't mean that we are wiped off the face of the earth. What about that green stuff? (which I predict the rest of this convo will revolve around)

Did you read Snafu's last few sentences?

Coincidentally this is exactly why you were brought here for refinement. Pineal gland is huuuuuuge...

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

Ahh, I forgot the most important part of it!!
You have to realize that all of your thoughts and memories aren't who you are. They are just a bunch of information that you can use if you want. Pretty much everyone in the world identifies these thoughts and memories as who they are, and from this regrets, disappointment, confusion, and maybe some seemingly positive things arise from this false identity one has made for one's self.

You have your body (which is the physical part of you), you have your mind (which is all of your memories and thoughts), and you have your Self (which is what you really are--it contains no emotions or feelings of any sort, it is just sort of your instinctual self that just reacts to things that are being thought of/seen/sensed. So, when you are constantly thinking and not realizing that this self is separate from the mind and body. So you put the self under duress because it is being confused with your memories and thoughts of who you think you are. The instinctual part of you then becomes constantly under stress, but if you realize that your thoughts and memories are not who you are, you can calm this instinctual self and stop it from reacting and stressing out from all these false threats that your mind is creating for it.

Would you think it fair to say that the Self is akin to free will, perhaps the manifestation of it, or more accurately, the mechanism of it?

And what exactly are memories and thoughts? (<-Rhetorical; Not expecting you to be The Oracle. Rhyming ftw).

 

[Milo]

Would you think it fair to say that the Self is akin to free will, perhaps the manifestation of it, or more accurately, the mechanism of it?

And what exactly are memories and thoughts? (<-Rhetorical; Not expecting you to be The Oracle. Rhyming ftw).

No. I would say that free will is a product of consciousness which is made by having the ability to store thoughts and memories. So in essence, free will is of the mind. Think of it this way--unintelligent animals only have the body and the self with perhaps a small insy bit of mind depending on the animal (I would say animals like cats, dogs, lab mice, monkeys, or any other animal that can be trained or taught/be able to make slightly more complex associations like being able to jump to turn the handle on a door in order to get into the bathroom to drink from the toilet have narrow consciousness. That's why they don't hold grudges or develop phobias--they can make slightly complex associations, but a grudge takes a lot of memory to hold onto for long amounts of time. And the ones that basically can't make any associations like bugs really can't be trained or adjust to its environment at all. They are just functioning solely based on what their genetics make them do.

So you could say the self is in all living things, and maybe even in all things. It is like the nature of some given object, and the more consciousness some object (including living things) has (the greater the consciousness, the more complex associations being made from memories), the more likely it is to deviate from its "nature." And when a living object capable of feeling pain and other things deviates from its nature, the more conflicted the Self/instinctual/nature of the living thing is because it has to react to all those associations because its so complex that the Self might interpret them as real things happening right now which would put it in a constant state of conflict depending on the memories and associations (Sorry, that was a hard concept to keep in a neat sentence...)

 

[Milo]

This conflict will probably eventually drive the conscious thing to seek happiness by trying to find its purpose. And this entire time, it should just be acting according to its nature in order to find that happiness.

I put this in another post because it wraps it up quite well and may interest other readers to read the above statements really closely in order to fully grasp this.

 

[Milo]

*snore*

This topic of discussion is boring. But I once read a page (that I found boring) and it seems to be relevant to this (it's also boring and self-contradicting), so you might like it.

http://deoxy.org/egofalse.html

Thanks! Pretty interesting stuff! Haha

 

[The Introvert]

What if there is no purpose? Evolution, for example, is random without direction; just accumulated response to stimuli and nothing more. Is the purpose to become aware that there is no purpose?

Central system? What if it's a central void? <-@Duxwing

The components of the system will eventually wear out. Death is simply a part of life; just as the degradation of a system is simply a part of being a system.

^O'rly? What if the components don't truly wear out but are merely replaced, a la "matter cannot be created nor destroyed"? Does death even exist then?

It's not the atoms, it's the consciousness. WTF happens to that? (<-rhetorical. You can look through some of the Blob-N01d10ts-Cog-Architect-Agent I.-Snafu-Dux threads/posts for relevant discussion)

<-Self-defeatism. Kill it. WITH A GIANT FUCKING HAMMER.

What about that green stuff? (which I predict the rest of this convo will revolve around)
Coincidentally this is exactly why you were brought here for refinement. Pineal gland is huuuuuuge...

As for the "purpose"; there was a reason I put them in quotation marks. Rather than trying to explain the existence of systems, I merely left it at serving some sort of "purpose". By this, I mean that the components of the system are intricately involved with one another and, by some means (luck? God? I don't know) they complete some sort of job (just as a group of interns may split up the coffee getting/ bagel getting duties).

About the central void; wouldn't it be the same thing? I honestly don't think the two terms need to be differentiated. Consider this: a void would be a vast emptiness, the absence of everything, yes? The dispersal and eventual riddance of matter would, in my eyes, be considered a system... something had to get rid of it, and it had to go somewhere, if we're staying withing the boundaries of known physics here.

The part about the components wearing out; I merely meant that they were to be replaced, not destroyed. Poor word choice on my part. However, the existence of death is actually a question I asked in my tangent (somewhere near the bottom of it). And consciousness is, of course, an issue, but the existence of consciousness is only possible through the collection of atoms that enables it.

And, as for the self-defeatism; I'm working on it. It's not something that I can just get rid of out of nowhere... Development and change of a system takes time

 

[redbaron]

Thanks! Pretty interesting stuff! Haha

Well I'm glad you enjoy it at least

 

[Milo]

A cool thing that I just discovered is that once you have been enlightened, you can use positive psychology on top of it and it is so much more effective!

Realist: That's just the placebo effect
Optimist: It's all a placebo!
Realist: Only idiots are happy
Optimist: Well then I'm an idiot
Realist: *Feels brief moment of pride*
Optimist:

 

[Milo]

This is all too confusing. I suggest you read this new thread I made instead. http://www.intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=14793

 

[koan]

Two things:
1- read Ernest Becker

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KS8DnYwnnF4

2- keep in mind

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bJxYRtGUM4

 

[Milo]

@koan

Are you referring to the "Who cares?" part?

 

[koan]

First part, no.
Second part, yes.

It's important but maybe not so much.
If people don't figure out the first part then the second part applies.