English- Creating a Utopia

[lemonsunite]

So my english teacher decideds to surprise us with an assigment. We're supposed to create a Utopia, incorperating the ideal-ness of a perfect society. We have to make this look and sound like it could be done in the near future.

Although I have tried to tell my teacher that utopian societies don't exist, and any fictional examples always end in ruin, she told me that it is possible and there are examples in the real world (i.e. Amish communities)

Therefore i need an idea of where to start. Or a scientific article proving that a Utopia cannot exist.

 

[NoID10ts]

Utopian communities? Amish? All it takes is one NoID10ts and that utopia will just fall to pieces!

I don't believe there are any real life examples. At least not ones that could be implemented on a large scale. In my opinion, in order to have a true utopia you have to crush the human spirit of independence and individuality. As long as people have differing views that cannot be reconciled, and are willing to fight for those views, there will never be a utopia.

If you want to create this utopia you need lots of mind and thought control. Perhaps the destruction of religion and certainly something humanist put in its place. A clear definition of what is moral and socially acceptable, and clear punishment for deviation. Drugs......... lots and lots of drugs. And sex.........lots and lots of sex. This keeps up the illusion of happiness and contentment. And cloning.

I've been reading "Brave New World" so some of this is an extension of that.

 

[FusionKnight]

You could do a little research on Libertarianism and Market Anarchism... the proponents of these philosophies tend to think of them as the real-world optimum, knowing that a true utopia is indeed impossible since people always contain within themselves the seed of evil.

 

[FusionKnight]

If you want to create this utopia you need lots of mind and thought control. Perhaps the destruction of religion and certainly something humanist put in its place. A clear definition of what is moral and socially acceptable, and clear punishment for deviation. Drugs......... lots and lots of drugs. And sex.........lots and lots of sex. This keeps up the illusion of happiness and contentment. And cloning.

Logan's Run?

 

[NoID10ts]

Logan's Run?

I still haven't seen it, but it is in my Netflix queue. I've been trying to go back and watch some of the old sci fi movies.

SOYLENT GREEN IS PEOPLE!

 

[Agent Intellect]

take the fact that you and your teacher can't come to an agreement about something so trivial as proof that nobody could ever agree on what a utopian society for everyone should be.

 

[FusionKnight]

I still haven't seen it, but it is in my Netflix queue. I've been trying to go back and watch some of the old sci fi movies.

Try the book. It's must less abbreviated than the film, but it's still a short and fast read.

 

[NoID10ts]

Try the book. It's must less abbreviated than the film, but it's still a short and fast read.

I just might do that. I'm really enjoying "Brave New World". I heard Ridley Scott will be making a film adaptation of it. If there is a god he might be Ridley Scott .

 

[FusionKnight]

Now that would be interesting! Lol!

 

[Agent Intellect]

supposed to be another film adaptation of "1984" next year, too. or so i've heard. the version of it actually made in 1984 wasn't all that bad, except they had no commentary for anything so most of it you would only understand if you'd already read the book, but it didn't deviate from the story much at all.

 

[Decaf]

Utopia? Of course its possible. Unfortunately any utopia can only contain one human being, surrounded by robots with manufactured personalities that have no psychological needs to get in the way. Wait... no that one usually ends in the human becoming sadistic.

I think in the end humans bring enough problems with them to any utopia that only through the balancing of all the personality types does anything stay on track. If you want to make a utopia, I guess you'll have to replace all the humans.

 

[lemonsunite]

Utopia? Of course its possible. Unfortunately any utopia can only contain one human being, surrounded by robots with manufactured personalities that have no psychological needs to get in the way.

I tried to tell her that. I also told her that Amish communities are based on simplicity and not the happy-ness required for a Utopia. But she wont listen.

She's making us go over The Giver book for an example.
she also think it's quite funny and cute that I don't believe in Utopia

 

[Decaf]

The concept of a utopia relies on the misconception that we know what's good for us. Or that we have any idea what set of circumstances might reliably generate happiness. Or that we are even sure that happiness can exist with the exclusion of sadness.

Utopia is stagnation. The second law of thermodynamics demands that no system reach "perfection" as it would be an unnecessary amount of order for the system, and thus would degenerate into the a diversified "enough" system. Just enough order to keep things running, because when things stop running, they are purged from the system. If the system is well above the "enough" level, any negative mutation is allowed to survive, dragging the system down until it reaches that equilibrium point. Survival of the fittest. To guarantee perfection you must turn life into a still image, keeping entropy from acting on it.

Nature can not bear utopia.

This seems like the teacher is setting you up for an "epiphany". I read the Giver and if I remember, I took away the idea that for "Utopia" to exist, we must give up what it means to be human. I'm sure if you put equal effort into a persuasive essay about how Utopia can not exist as the students who write about their fictional Utopias, you'll do fine.

Maybe I'm just going off on a tangent, but something that made me despair in school was having to follow rules that didn't make sense. If I had to do it over again, I would try to make the rules fit me instead of the other way around.

Good luck.

 

[NoID10ts]

I tried to tell her that. I also told her that Amish communities are based on simplicity and not the happy-ness required for a Utopia. But she wont listen.

She's making us go over The Giver book for an example.
she also think it's quite funny and cute that I don't believe in Utopia

Write some bullshit story about how Obama is going to create this much desired utopian society she looks forward to. That's probably what she is getting at, if she is anything like many of the teachers I work. You should get an 'A' at the expense of a smudge on your sense of integrity.

Isn't it a shame when the students are smarter than the teachers?

 

[Decaf]

Write some bullshit story about how Obama is going to create this much desired utopian society she looks forward to. That's probably what she is getting at, if she is anything like many of the teachers I work. You should get an 'A' at the expense of a smudge on your sense of integrity.

Isn't it a shame when the students are smarter than the teachers?

I don't know... I think this is the perfect time to encourage our fellow INTPs to NOT cave to the J society. Why smudge our integrity and in the process destroy any interest we might have in performing well? I did it, you did it... but that's because we thought we had to. Maybe we don't.

 

[FusionKnight]

Never Cave!

 

[NoID10ts]

I am tired of caving!

 

[Kidege]

I read somewhere that the Jesuits tried to create their little Utopias in their New World missions. They set villages in the middle of nowhere and did farming, had workshops, music lessons, etc. Of course all the work was done by the natives, who according to the ideology of the time, were "closer to nature" and "suceptible of perfectionement without the evils of western civilisation". I don't think anybody bothered to ask the natives what they thought, but they probably prefered going to Mass and doing chores with the Jesuits to dying in the mines.

It ended when the colonial establishment had enough and kicked them out.

 

[Ermine]

I tried to tell her that. I also told her that Amish communities are based on simplicity and not the happy-ness required for a Utopia. But she wont listen.

She's making us go over The Giver book for an example.
she also think it's quite funny and cute that I don't believe in Utopia

WHAT?!? I'm hoping she's using The Giver as an example of a dystopia. You just don't kill off old people in a utopian society. It's not right! It sounds like she doesn't even know what a utopia is. And I can't stand teachers that think every contradiction is "cute".

And you can't use any existing society because there are always unhappy people in every society.

 

[Kuu]

You can do the PETA utopia: kill all humans! Animals rule the lands once again! What'd she make of that?

And that stuff Kidege says about the Jesuits is true. I saw it in a movie. (Great evidence there, Tekton). But seriously, I've seen it in history classes way back when, and then somewhere else too.

(Tangential to the tangent of dystopian movies, I heard Guillermo del Toro will be making Lovecraft's At the Mountains of Madness. My mind reels at the mere thought of such corrupt a psyche that would unleash the horror of the shoggoths upon the frail and unsuspecting masses of humanity )

 

[Fleur]

You can do the PETA utopia: kill all humans! Animals rule the lands once again! What'd she make of that?

There`s a loop in this. Humans are animals too; therefore animals are already ruling the world.

 

[Kuu]

but humans have.................. souls?

(lulz, arguing the destruction of humanity because humans have souls.)

And kittens are cute! They deserve to live, not us!

 

[Fleur]

Why only humans then?

 

[Kuu]

Because we can conceive of souls? I don't know, I'm just saying stuff! It's nearly 4am...

You could write about a Brain in a Vat utopia. Matrix gone good. But that would also be dystopia. Agh.

Edit: NO wait! I know why only humans must die! Because humans are filthy animals! Other animals are cute! And personality goes a long way!

Edit the second: Robot utopia! Where there is no mortality or emotions, there is no suffering or injustice! No morality at all! But the spirit of humanity lives on (technology/intelligence).

 

[Fleur]

4 a.m. for you, 12.01 p.m. for me.

Besides, literally "utopia" means "place, which doesn`t exist". It`s neither ideal nor non-ideal, it`s just a non-existant.

The term of filthyness is relative! People tend to think that coalas are cute until they find out about the food of baby-coala. (Wait... now I sound like Perseus...)

 

[lemonsunite]

Moore's Utopia book/thing started the idea of a utopia. The greek orgin of the word means "no / place" as in no such place.

I've asked my parents to write the teacher a note saying that the project on utopia goes against my beliefs...but they just laughed...

I told my teacher that i'd rather do a 4 page essay on "101 reasons why utopia cannot exist" but she smiled and was like "oh stop being silly. wait for it, i'm sure you'll fall in love with the project. you're just *that* type of girl"

heh.. i'm curious as to how she percieves me...?

 

[NoID10ts]

Moore's Utopia book/thing started the idea of a utopia. The greek orgin of the word means "no / place" as in no such place.

I've asked my parents to write the teacher a note saying that the project on utopia goes against my beliefs...but they just laughed...

I told my teacher that i'd rather do a 4 page essay on "101 reasons why utopia cannot exist" but she smiled and was like "oh stop being silly. wait for it, i'm sure you'll fall in love with the project. you're just *that* type of girl"

heh.. i'm curious as to how she percieves me...?

Have you considered a kick to the shin? I find that a solid kick to the shin every now and then, can be very helpful. I'm sure as your teacher is crying out in pain, she will let you do the project however you see fit.

 

[Decaf]

Ask her if she's trying to squash your desire to pursue the truth by writing things that go against your beliefs.

Maybe she'll let you write about a dystopia. Its still a creative act, but it would allow you to be consistent with yourself. If she won't let you, then she must admit that you have to do it "because she told you to" which is to teaching like managing is to leadership.

 

[lemonsunite]

Maybe she'll let you write about a dystopia.

hmm

the only problem with that is that she asked us to create a utopia, and then write about how daily tasks will be preformed. I don't really see how you can describe a dystopia in that sense...

 

[Decaf]

How about Fallout 3? Radiation suits, roving bandits and mutant infestations. Or something along the lines of Brave New World (you could get some ideas reading the wiki page on it)

I've always been of the opinion that the technological device that finally destroys society as a whole will be human inserted nanobots. With the ability to destroy and generate scar tissue they could alter an individuals memory, personality and motor skills. With precise enough refinement, humans become a complex form of robot. People are tricked with promises of longer life and better health (both of which they would get). Those that never receive the implants represent an increasing minority as they are captured by the corporations in control and added to the fold.

Just an idea

 

[NoID10ts]

So, is the shin kicking option off the table?

I think we might get a few notches closer to a Utopia if certain key people in the world had swift kicks to the shins.

 

[Raison D'etre]

I say at the end of your essay you can reveal or give some sort of hint that the utopia was actually just a dream concieved by a child.

 

[lemonsunite]

So, is the shin kicking option off the table?

I think we might get a few notches closer to a Utopia if certain key people in the world had swift kicks to the shins.

haha i can imagine starting of my essay with "To achieve a utpopia, my reaserch has shown that a swift kick to the shin for certain people will speed up our process."

I have just finished reading 1984, and now i will engage in a very tiring but hopefully progressive debate with my teacher and her views. hopefully it will result in a different assignment

 

[Decaf]

I have just finished reading 1984, and now i will engage in a very tiring but hopefully progressive debate with my teacher and her views. hopefully it will result in a different assignment

Way to take a stand! Its your education, not anyone else's.

 

[EloquentBohemian]

@lemomsunite...

Okay. I am not impressed with your teacher.
From your explanations of her attitudes, this educator is condescending and patronising.
Just because a particular book like this is considered a 'canonical' piece of literature among educators and on the 'City Reads' program in the U.S. ( I don't know where you live), does not give any educator the right to refuse a view contrary to theirs and especially does not give an educator the right to dismiss it as 'cute'.
What does this teacher mean by this comment, anyway?
Was there a condescending pat on your head at the same time?

This illustrates my reason for ranting about the lack of critical thinking in current educational systems. Just because someone has a piece of paper designating them as an 'educator' does not mean they know what is best for each particular student. The "we know what is best for children" attitude must cease. I am not aware of your age either, but anyone past the age of 10 or 11 is quite capable of forming their own critical opinions and should be encouraged to do so.

Western democracies were formed by those who questioned the norms of their times and criticised the conformity and restrictions of those with 'authority', hence, any critical determination founded on sound research and critical thinking should be applauded and encouraged rather than dismissed as the fancy of "one who is of lesser education". It is the duty of the student to surpass the teacher, not acquiesce to the formulations of the teacher which only results in a 'clone', not an individual. It is the duty of the teacher to encourage the student to surpass any teacher.

I have read this book and I, personally, would not rate it as high as say, 1984, The Glass Bead Game, The Handmaid's Tale or Fahrenheit 451. It is not a novel about a utopia, rather it is a book concerning the degradation of an attempted utopia and the prices, both individually and collectively, that must be paid in order to achieve an idealistic sociological structure. If anything, The Giver is a critique of utopias, not an endorsement of them.

...stepping off my soapbox now.

 

[Decaf]

Maybe we could start a grass roots program where someone comes to us with a complaint about their education and we send emails to the teacher expressing (in as constructive way as possible) a means of fixing said problem. Free educational consultants on demand. We'll be the ABCDF-Team.

Duh-d-duh-duh, dun dun dun, duh-d-duh-duh, dun dun dun dun dun

 

[EloquentBohemian]

I'm for it.

...and one shin-kicking e-mail from NoID10ts

 

[EloquentBohemian]

We'll be the ABCD (missing something here?) F-Team.

...couldn't pass it up.

EDIT: I find it depressing and curious that the word used for what children study is curriculum, whose etymology is: Latin: action of running, course of action, race, chariot, equiv. to curr(ere) to run.

 

[Agent Intellect]

we should just start our own school. or become education lobbyists.

 

[EloquentBohemian]

we should just start our own school.

And Pink Floyd's Another Brick In The Wall shall be played after the National Anthem.

or become education lobbyists.

hmmm... like this idea.
...but we would be lobbying for the children, so getting paid from their allowance money doesn't seem fair.

 

[NoID10ts]

Maybe AI and I could be like Vincent and Jules from Pulp Fiction and travel around quoting from the Bible of Pness and shooting shitty teachers with god damned hand canons!

Edit: I work at a junior high school, and have a few we can start with.

 

[Agent Intellect]

Maybe AI and I could be like Vincent and Jules from Pulp Fiction and travel around quoting from the Bible of Pness and shooting shitty teachers with god damned hand canons!

Edit: I work at a junior high school, and have a few we can start with.

"Do they speak english in What?"

dibs on Jules.

 

[NoID10ts]

"Do they speak english in What?"

dibs on Jules.

Oh man, I shot Marvin in the face!

 

[Agent Intellect]

and you caused Marsellus' wife to OD and got shot coming out the shitter

 

[NoID10ts]

Lance: You're going to give her an injection of adrenaline directly to her heart. But she's got, uh, breastplate...
[taps Mia's chest]

Lance: So you gotta pierce through that. So what you have to do is, you have to bring the needle down in a stabbing motion.
[demonstrates]

Vincent: I-I gotta stab her three times?

Lance: No, you don't gotta fucking stab her three times! You gotta stab her once, but it's gotta be hard enough to break through her breastplate into her heart, and then once you do that, you press down on the plunger.

Vincent: What happens after that?

Lance: I'm kinda curious about that myself...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry. Last one.

 

[Agent Intellect]

hahaha i love that movie. the sodomy scene was a bit unexpected the first time though.

 

[NoID10ts]

Can't we both be Jules? Vincent is kind of a putz.

Oops. Sorry. Go back to the discussion. Education reform. Go!

 

[Agent Intellect]

fine, fine... i'll be the guy who hid Bruce Willis' watch in his ass.

oh yeah, education. I, er, concur.

 

[NoID10ts]

Last one I promise.

Christopher Walken is my hero.

 

[Jordan~]

Pulp Fiction

Ever heard of A Slurry Tale?

Vincent: But wait, for half my tale is yet untold.
Were I to ask thee how the Hollanders
do garnish their patatas, wouldst say thus:
"The sweet, luxurious sauce of fair Mahon,
with olive's oil and creamy yolk of egg,
well known as garnish meet for tubers"--aye?

Julius: Is it not so?

Vincent: God blind me if it were.
The Lowland-men, who must distracted be,
do grind up crimson nightshade and concoct
a loathsome sauce, "ketjap" by name, which doth
no doubt inflame their fevered brains anew,
perpetuating their insanity.

Julius: God's truth! I can believe it not.

Vincent: Oh, aye,
and not a little do they thus employ;
but rather the patatas drown therewith.

Julius: 'Tis an abomination, by my faith

http://pulpbard.wikispaces.com/