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Does this mean that INTP's?...

B.C.P.

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#1
Because INTP's tend to feel disconnected from the world around them, and because they are typically uninterested in conforming to society's expectations, it seems that some INTP's wouldn't mind if society just fell apart.

Some questions popped into my head at that point:
1) What would INTP's miss about society?
2) Do INTP's sit around and make "doomsday" plans in their head?
3) Would INTP's seek to recreate society?
4) And how well would we handle being responsible for our own survival if it entailed tedious activities like growing a garden, building shelter, caring for animals, etc.?

As to the last question, any type is capable of survival, I'm just wondering if you guys think you would consider it an inconvenience or if it would be a playground for our Ti to create and optimize the most efficient system possible.

My answers?
1) Anything electronic. That's about it.
2) I do, and I'd bet all of you have thought about it at one point.
3) Hell no.
4) As I said, it would be a Ti playground with a near-infinite frontier for improvement.
 
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#2
i would miss the internet

but life would be better, i'd be forced to become active rather than leeching off society or doing alienating work with minimal connection to my own interests (whether survival or luxury)
 

B.C.P.

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#3
Survival tends to be a direct interest for most living beings, so I can't see how the work necessary to create shelter and gather food/water would be something that the INTP couldn't find meaning or satisfaction in.

Also, I didn't clearly explain the divide between a "doomsday" plan for surviving the apocalyptic event, and one for surviving the fallout. In other words, a plan for surviving in a deteriorating society, or rather, escaping one, and a plan for surviving in the aftermath.

I figure the typical INTP plan for an active doomsday would be to get the hell out of society. All the elevated emotions would turn our nose, and we may be inclined to sit about rationalizing violence/non-violence rather than shooting mother-fuckers. :)
 

DelusiveNinja

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#4
Because INTP's tend to feel disconnected from the world around them, and because they are typically uninterested in conforming to society's expectations, it seems that some INTP's wouldn't mind if society just fell apart.
I am not interested in conforming to the expectations that I deem unreasonable and I try not to concern myself to much with the status of society. I would care if it fell apart because then it would affect me drastically.

1) What would INTP's miss about society?
2) Do INTP's sit around and make "doomsday" plans in their head?
3) Would INTP's seek to recreate society?
4) And how well would we handle being responsible for our own survival if it entailed tedious activities like growing a garden, building shelter, caring for animals, etc.?
1) I would miss technology, books, and music, maybe even anime.
2) I think of apocalyptic possibilities not plans.
3) Recreating society may be something I would contribute to reluctantly, knowing that if I didn't help I would be left for dead as a bum while everyone else is either working together to make life easier or working for control over everyone else.
4) I wouldn't like doing those task at all. I would probably try to find an automated way to get it done.
 

Pyropyro

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#5
1) Electronic Access, Communication with Family and Friends, Libraries and other sources of information
2) When I was a boy yes. I think I dreamed of a seafaring city platform before.
3) Sure why not? Being exposed to both rural and urban environments, I prefer the one with the amenities to help people develop to the full. I think our Ti-Ne can help make impromptu but workable tech and systems to make a complex society possible.
4) Yeah we could survive. Any type can gain tenacity to cling to life in tough times even if we have to access our more undeveloped Si and Fe.
 
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#6
Because INTP's tend to feel disconnected from the world around them, and because they are typically uninterested in conforming to society's expectations, it seems that some INTP's wouldn't mind if society just fell apart.

Some questions popped into my head at that point:
1) What would INTP's miss about society?
2) Do INTP's sit around and make "doomsday" plans in their head?
3) Would INTP's seek to recreate society?
4) And how well would we handle being responsible for our own survival if it entailed tedious activities like growing a garden, building shelter, caring for animals, etc.?

1. Running/hot water.
2 I actually have an entire binder with notes dedicated to various post apocalyptic situations.
3. Yea, that's inevitable. My preference would be a clan like group with a single authoritarian leader and an advisory council who instruct the leader.
4. Im an aspiring farmer so Im just twiddling my thumbs waiting for SHTF.
 

GodOfOrder

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#7
Take me back to somewhere near 1880, and I'll be just fine. I'd peak in the 20s and die in the early 50s. Life would be grand.
 

B.C.P.

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#8
2. I actually have an entire binder with notes dedicated to various post apocalyptic situations.

4. Im an aspiring farmer so Im just twiddling my thumbs waiting for SHTF.
2. Care to share any or are they too random to be understood on their own?

4. LOL
 

Solitaire U.

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#9
We'll apply the stereotypical rhetoric...

Because INTP's tend to feel disconnected from the world around them, and because they are typically uninterested in conforming to society's expectations, it seems that some INTP's wouldn't mind if society just fell apart.
Until it fell apart. Then they'd suddenly realize that 'civilization' was the very thing that afforded them the luxury to pursue an INTP-ish existence, ie: safe, stabilized isolation (if that's indeed what the great INTP-iquity is all about, as the prevailing rhetoric seems to indicate). Forget about the demise of the internet...imagine surviving in a world where 'optimizing the system' has no value whatsoever, and everything is reduced to The Possessors(SJ), The Takers(SJ), and The Starving Masses.

If I had to pick a type that would become nonviable in such an environment, it would be hands down INTP. In other words, extinction.


Some questions popped into my head at that point:
Addressed in above paragraph.

As to the last question, any type is capable of survival, I'm just wondering if you guys think you would consider it an inconvenience or if it would be a playground for our Ti to create and optimize the most efficient system possible.
The playground is now. Modern technology is a haven for the INTP (stereotype). If there's no system, there's nothing to optimize. The decline of modern civilization would render complex systems obsolete. 'Societies' would revert to crude, simple, functional and serviceable survival systems. Resources, both financial and information based, necessary for 'optimization' would be non-existent, not to mention unnecessary for immediate survival, and the types that tend to be dependent upon such resources would have a very difficult time surviving.

I don't know. It seems like all types take a lot for granted in their readiness to conform to MBTI stereotypes. The 'perfect personality' (MBTI speaking) would be a hybrid with all of the strengths and none of the limitations of any one type. Just my opinion.
 

B.C.P.

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#10
And our bubbles are burst. Thanks for the input, Solitaire.

I agree that we take a lot for granted when we accept the profile of the INTP. Indeed in an apocalyptic situation we would be exchanging relief from the expectations society puts upon us for all the comforts it nevertheless provides. Comforts like the ones you mention ("safe, stabilized isolation"), as well as ease of access to luxuries like electricity, running water, transportation, and many more, would disappear. An INTP would have to adapt in that situation, and it would take some time for the comforts of the old to fade away so that the challenges of the new could occupy our minds.

But I nevertheless think that the challenges of a post-civilization world would be exciting for an INTP as it presents a lot of problems to be solved and creative improvements to be implemented. That is not to say that there is no playground now (and I agree with you that there is), but a post-apocalyptic world is nevertheless a new sandbox that has new challenges for out mind to conquer, whereas the challenges we're used to in civilization now have, with time, become boring to us or have already been solved by our theoretical models.
 

ummidk

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#11
We'll apply the stereotypical rhetoric...



Until it fell apart. Then they'd suddenly realize that 'civilization' was the very thing that afforded them the luxury to pursue an INTP-ish existence, ie: safe, stabilized isolation (if that's indeed what the great INTP-iquity is all about, as the prevailing rhetoric seems to indicate). Forget about the demise of the internet...imagine surviving in a world where 'optimizing the system' has no value whatsoever, and everything is reduced to The Possessors(SJ), The Takers(SJ), and The Starving Masses.

If I had to pick a type that would become nonviable in such an environment, it would be hands down INTP. In other words, extinction.
Interesting....Do you think the INTP personality type, and perhaps others? evolved into civilization, rather than existed prior to it?
 

DelusiveNinja

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#12
Interesting....Do you think the INTP personality type, and perhaps others? evolved into civilization, rather than existed prior to it?
Maybe the INTP stereotype "evolved" into civilization. Before INTPs were able to attain the autonomy they desired, they were forced to adapt to another INTP stereotype or social role. This may prompt the question: How did most INTPs act 'back then'?
 

B.C.P.

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#13
Perhaps they were misunderstood hermits. Then again mimicry is one of our talents so we could have just as easily blended into society and lived among the dolts.

I think it could just as easily be both.
 

Rook

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#14
Let us replace "intp" with "intellectuals" for the sake of this argument, and refer back to history. In ancient Greece we have men like Socrates, Plato and Archimedes. During the Renaissance, we have Da Vinci, Machievelli etc. During the middle ages? During the stages were Africa and Australia were still primitive continents? Not as many innovators and scientists as in more enlightened times. Clerical philosophers and historians, yes, but not rational minded individuals who made an impact in those times. Sumer, Egypt, the Aztecs, the early Chinese and Indians, all these civilizations had mathematics, with astronomical ventures included. Inviriably, the rationalist(intp) is born out of society, and as society fades, he becomes a lesser breed, his offspring not having the intellectual stimulation of a scientific society, rather the mentality of the survivor.
Shamefully then, our existence springs out of advanced society.
 

Pyropyro

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#15
Interesting....Do you think the INTP personality type, and perhaps others? evolved into civilization, rather than existed prior to it?
I think that all types predate civilization. However, I think personality quirks were just not well expressed due to security and food issues. Types that do express their quirks too much (such as the absent minded INTP caveman) may be selected against (being eaten by a toothy monster that s/he ignored in the first place)
 

Rook

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#16
Personalities are mostly formed by circumstance, partly by genetics. What circumstances in neolithic ages would have led to the development of an aloof, absent minded individual with minimal interaction with his clan and strange ideas not pertaining to survival? Would an individual who goes against convention and thinks about the world at length, bypassing the superstitions that his people hold so dear, have any place in a primitive culture? Parents in those times did not raise their children with a knowledge of mathematics, science or eaven rationality. The children's personalities were molded for survival, so that they would interact with their clan on an emotional level and do menial tasks for the good of all. It was only once people began to question, to delve into reality by observation, that a spesific mindset, an intellectual personality, developed. This drive for knowledge started when complex societies were in place, were people could sit back, choosing not to work, so that they could rather think about the structure of that around them. This only started when there was support structures in place, when their survival and the doing of menial tasks fell to others.
 

Solitaire U.

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#17
Interesting....Do you think the INTP personality type, and perhaps others? evolved into civilization, rather than existed prior to it?
Ridiculously short answer to an insanely complex question; yes.
 

Etheri

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#18
Let us replace "intp" with "intellectuals" for the sake of this argument, and refer back to history.

Shamefully then, our existence springs out of advanced society.
I agree with your point, but I question the validity of replacing 'intp' with 'intellectual'. I'd dare wager that most intellectuals were too organised and hard-working to be INTPs.

1) What would INTP's miss about society?
It's security and the fact that it provides for my lazy lifestyle?
2) Do INTP's sit around and make "doomsday" plans in their head?
Yes, but I'd change rather than destroy society as a whole... Atleast whenever I'm feeling somewhat nice.
3) Would INTP's seek to recreate society?
Considering my previous answer, I assume 'yes'
4) And how well would we handle being responsible for our own survival if it entailed tedious activities like growing a garden, building shelter, caring for animals, etc.?
I can't speak for all of us, but I think most of us would be fine. In fact the majority of intps are probably rather practical.

As to the last question, any type is capable of survival, I'm just wondering if you guys think you would consider it an inconvenience or if it would be a playground for our Ti to create and optimize the most efficient system possible.

Yes, it would be a playground for our Ti to create and optimize the most efficient system. However, current society is [to me] more efficient than most systems you'll come up with from a selfish point of view.

From a non-selfish point of view, it's simply a more complex system, which requires more finesse to optimalise. I'm convinced that a large-scale economy is more efficient than small survive-by-yourself communities. I think these small communities seem more appealing because they're simpeler, you have constant overview.
Whelp.
 

B.C.P.

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#19
Personalities are mostly formed by circumstance, partly by genetics. What circumstances in neolithic ages would have led to the development of an aloof, absent minded individual with minimal interaction with his clan and strange ideas not pertaining to survival? Would an individual who goes against convention and thinks about the world at length, bypassing the superstitions that his people hold so dear, have any place in a primitive culture? Parents in those times did not raise their children with a knowledge of mathematics, science or eaven rationality. The children's personalities were molded for survival, so that they would interact with their clan on an emotional level and do menial tasks for the good of all. It was only once people began to question, to delve into reality by observation, that a spesific mindset, an intellectual personality, developed. This drive for knowledge started when complex societies were in place, were people could sit back, choosing not to work, so that they could rather think about the structure of that around them. This only started when there was support structures in place, when their survival and the doing of menial tasks fell to others.
So are you saying that observation and survival do not co-exist?

And are you saying that one would be debilitated, or influenced to an extent, by the presence of the other?
 
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#20
1) What would INTP's miss about society?

This INTP would miss the ready availability of people watching. But then again, that depends on to what degree society were to fall apart. As long as I was with a group of at least 150 minimum or so, I don't think I would miss much at all. In fact I'd prefer this.

2) Do INTP's sit around and make "doomsday" plans in their head?

I'd prefer to start over, yes.

3) Would INTP's seek to recreate society?

This one would definitely like to hit the reset button. Can't be much worse than what we have to endure now:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6luDsjJqgjA

4) And how well would we handle being responsible for our own survival if it entailed tedious activities like growing a garden, building shelter, caring for animals, etc.?

It would definitely be a playground. Shorter lived (reduced life expectancy due to lowered standards of food, clothing, shelter and medical care) but even if life expectancy is halved we'd enjoy our shorter lives 1000s of times more.
 

Analyzer

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#21
I would miss the division of labor and voluntary exchanges. There are a lot of things I rather have other people do. At the same time people would rather do different things then me.
 

Rook

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#22
B.C.P: "So are you saying that observation and survival do not co-exist?
And are you saying that one would be debilitated, or influenced to an extent, by the presence of the other?"

Co-exist they do. But I state that survival influences rational pursuit and objective observation. If a society is existensial, with their sole focus on survival, they do not use their limited time constructing rational theories of the universe. They focus on their base needs, and all that is mysterious is explained by superstition. As they settle down into more ordened societies, with different citizens performing different tasks, some of them turn to "useless" pursuits.
*
Thus I state that an existensial lifestyle focused on survival leaves little to no room for rationalists, as they will be counter-productive to the survival of the whole group. (General relativity does not water one's crops).
Secondly, rational objectivity does not hamper survival in a settled society, and in the long term, it actually advances the chances of survival (modern medical practice, food security)

Where was mathematics, literature and astronomical observations first implemented? In our neolithic caves, or in our societal abodes such as Sumer?

First we humans survive on a day to day basis, but as we flock together and form civilizations, we start focusing on our long term survival.
 

Architect

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#23
Until it fell apart. Then they'd suddenly realize that 'civilization' was the very thing that afforded them the luxury to pursue an INTP-ish existence, ie: safe, stabilized isolation (if that's indeed what the great INTP-iquity is all about, as the prevailing rhetoric seems to indicate). Forget about the demise of the internet...imagine surviving in a world where 'optimizing the system' has no value whatsoever ...
Thank you.

I got my teeth cleaned this morning. Being interested in odd things I asked my hygenist about the encrustations on the teeth of old skulls (I was thinking of Richard III). It's calcified plaque, whereas my teeth are still all original, albeit with some additions (fillings and crowns).

I'm thankful for my car, air conditioning, house, dentist, credit cards, roads, clothes, computers ...
 
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#24
1) What would INTP's miss about society?

Society will exist as long as there are more than two people. It just wouldnt exist as we know it. I mean there are cell phones in Somolia, so short of an EMP or similar, that stuff isnt going anywhere. If we were somehow thrust back into the stone age, I'd miss wikipedia, but I would enjoy things like spending time with my kids and friends, designing ways to accomplish the things I needed to, just like I do now. I love to design and build things, I always have. So for me figuring out how the smartest way to do things would still be my focus, it would probably just be more involved with things I needed vs abstract ideas. How to best get that water into my garden. What makes chickens lay the most eggs. How can I accomplish x task with the least effort and so on.

2) Do INTP's sit around and make "doomsday" plans in their head?

Yes. I'm still working on them. Go to a national park and take over one of the maintenance sheds is my current strategy. I doubt most people would even consider that. Plentiful food sources and structures that no one will be showing up to work in.

3) Would INTP's seek to recreate society?

In its current form, no. But I'm an voluntarist/anarchist. I'd want a cooperative society based on the individual rather than a top down monopoly government.

4) And how well would we handle being responsible for our own survival if it entailed tedious activities like growing a garden, building shelter, caring for animals, etc.?

I think you all seriously underestimate the amount of thinking that it would take for us to become subsistence farmers if we had to. We'd have to essentially relearn tasks that no one has known how to do for a long time. Plus whatever setups we created would have to be constantly analyzed and improved on. Some INTP caveman probably invented the wheel, told an INTJ, who actually went out and built it. We're always going to see improvements in whatever we are doing. Always seeing things others do and thinking on ways to make it more efficient. Just because that wouldnt involve video games and computer programming, doesnt mean that we wouldnt be valuable or needed, or challenged to come up with ideas the way we like to be.

The government is completely bankrupt. They're printing money and historically, that never ends well. If you havent thought about what you would do if they went broke, you certainly should.
 

Architect

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#25
The government is completely bankrupt. They're printing money and historically, that never ends well.
Neither of those statements is true.
 

Architect

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#27

Hadoblado

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#28
We'll apply the stereotypical rhetoric...

Until it fell apart. Then they'd suddenly realize that 'civilization' was the very thing that afforded them the luxury to pursue an INTP-ish existence, ie: safe, stabilized isolation (if that's indeed what the great INTP-iquity is all about, as the prevailing rhetoric seems to indicate). Forget about the demise of the internet...imagine surviving in a world where 'optimizing the system' has no value whatsoever, and everything is reduced to The Possessors(SJ), The Takers(SJ), and The Starving Masses.

If I had to pick a type that would become nonviable in such an environment, it would be hands down INTP. In other words, extinction.
Good post. I was wondering when the rain to this parade would rear it's ugly head (you saved me a job).

The only strength I can see being brought to the table is the direction of echo hierarchies built from societal collapse. INTPs would be useful in plotting the trajectory of such a movement, but not vital to it. The nature of these echos is still very much in question, so it's more of a shadow of the possibility of a potential that might be optimised by our presence, not a niche that will be created for us to fall into.
 
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#29
Neither of those statements is true.
Maybe not according to the government.

We have over 200 Trillion dollars in unfunded liabilities and the government brings in somewhere in the ballpark of 2.8 trillion a year. I'm not sure how exactly you define bankrupt, but when liabilities are almost 100 times income, the fat lady is singing. You can believe everything is fine if you want to but its not. Even using the almost 17 trillion number, we would still never be able to actually pay that back. Raising the interest rates would collapse the economy completely and at some point, they will have to, or the dollar wont have any value. Not that it has any actual value now anyway.

http://www.npr.org/2011/08/06/139027615/a-national-debt-of-14-trillion-try-211-trillion

Almost every empire in history resorted to inflation, wiped out their middle class and eventually collapsed, the end game is either inflation to pay for welfare or war. Sometimes the war ends the empire, but generally, even then, the currency is destroyed in the final stages, Nazi Germany being an example, Rome being another.

http://mises.org/daily/3663

http://dailyreckoning.com/fiat-currency/
 
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