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Do other INTPs have issues with verbal fluency?

v3nge

Too busy thinking to make any decisions.
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#1
I wish I was better at spontaneous speaking, because I want to make Youtube videos. However, my verbal fluency is very bad and I don't know how to make my brain recall what I'm trying to say fast enough. (Even with nootropics.) My speaking has at lot of umms and pauses.

Is this a problem other INTPs have? If so, have you found any remedy?
 
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#2
Yes, I know exactly what you are talking about.

I think it's because our brains focus on using logic instead of words. If you are like me, you think in concepts rather than words or pictures. It makes communicating with the human race immensely difficult because a large portion of the population thinks in words and then less than that think in pictures. It's my guess that thinking in ideas is quite rare.
 

v3nge

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#3
YES! Like I know what I'm trying to say, it just takes a while to convert it into words.
 

higs

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#4
I feel like it’s a youth thing, ur brain is not yet wired correctly :D (if you are young, others just ignore me Xd)
 

v3nge

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#5
I'm 24... I think my brain is pretty much developed, as far as I know.
 
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#6
YES! Like I know what I'm trying to say, it just takes a while to convert it into words.
Right there with you and I know how frustrating it can be at times.
 

baccheion

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#7

v3nge

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#8
Not really. You can look into brainwave entrainment audio (Neuro-Programmer 3 or presets on YouTube/Spotify to start) or meditation, piracetam + 1-3g DHA (+ alpha-GPC if there are signs of low choline), p21/cerebrolysin, etc.

Jeffrey Thomspon (brainwave entrainment): https://youtube.com/channel/UCwi48dD3L8EKGyeCmbYhzHQ

https://intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=26344

https://intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=26632
Thanks for the advice. I've taken Piracetam and Aniracetam in the past, but I prefer Huperazine A, which is what I take now with Alpha GPC. They're all acetylcholinesterase inhibitors, but for me Hup A seems to work better. I find that my memory recall is much better, but my verbal fluency is mostly the same.
 

Manipulator

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#9
Yes and no. If I understand what I'm talking about I can talk a lot and very fast (it's Ne). But when I don't have organized thoughts or I don't understand a topic enough then I have really problem to say anything. (Small talk, sensing stuff, talking about feeling and emotions...). Imo you just need to better understand what you want to say, gather more data, etc...
 

higs

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#10
Could it just be a kind of self consciousness then, as in you are not entering a flow state when you speak which makes one less efficient ? I find I am more verbally fluent when I am socially at ease.

Also it could just mean you are choosing your words carefully, a kind of precaution, which is a good thing. You could practice cutting out the “uhmmms” however which are not elegant, speaking fairly slowly is not necessarily a bad thing at all, it means people pay more attention, frequently. I would create a charisma around speaking at a slower rate perhaps, many good speakers don’t speak fast and so have more impact. Sometimes I blurt out words fast when I am nervous which is not good for the person listening.

If you made a recording or YouTube vid of you speaking we could perhaps have some more useful input ?
 

Serac

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#11
I think that very analytical, introverted people don't realize how most people actually generate their verbal fluency: it's repetition, recurring patterns. If you talk with enough people, you'll realize that most conversations can be fully reconstructed from bits of previous conversations. Although the number of possible responses to any given statement is very large, people typically select a response from just a handful of them. The problem for analytical people is that they/we think everything is a special case, a new scenario to be analyzed and dealt with correctly. It was after I started shamelessly recycling phrases and conversations that I gained a certain verbal fluency.
 

v3nge

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#12
Could it just be a kind of self consciousness then, as in you are not entering a flow state when you speak which makes one less efficient ? I find I am more verbally fluent when I am socially at ease.

Also it could just mean you are choosing your words carefully, a kind of precaution, which is a good thing. You could practice cutting out the “uhmmms” however which are not elegant, speaking fairly slowly is not necessarily a bad thing at all, it means people pay more attention, frequently. I would create a charisma around speaking at a slower rate perhaps, many good speakers don’t speak fast and so have more impact. Sometimes I blurt out words fast when I am nervous which is not good for the person listening.

If you made a recording or YouTube vid of you speaking we could perhaps have some more useful input ?
Yeah, I do find that being in a flow state is necessary. Even in a flow state my speech can come out choppy. I think you may be right about the choosing my words carefully thing, I often have to think about how to phrase something the right way before I say it.

Right now I'm recording some videos as a buffer so I can upload consistently. I can upload a video later and post it here. I've already edited them so I cut some of the umms and ahs out, but I did leave some of them in as well. Ironically, most of the videos I've done so far are about nootropics and brain optimization. The theme of my channel is going to be "human optimization".
 

v3nge

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#13
I think that very analytical, introverted people don't realize how most people actually generate their verbal fluency: it's repetition, recurring patterns. If you talk with enough people, you'll realize that most conversations can be fully reconstructed from bits of previous conversations. Although the number of possible responses to any given statement is very large, people typically select a response from just a handful of them. The problem for analytical people is that they/we think everything is a special case, a new scenario to be analyzed and dealt with correctly. It was after I started shamelessly recycling phrases and conversations that I gained a certain verbal fluency.
That's a good tip. Maybe if I didn't avoid talking to people I'd have a greater bank of responses to draw from. Lol.
 
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#14
The problem for analytical people is that they/we think everything is a special case, a new scenario to be analyzed and dealt with correctly.
Lot of truth here.
 

Animekitty

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#15
Yes and no. If I understand what I'm talking about I can talk a lot and very fast (it's Ne). But when I don't have organized thoughts or I don't understand a topic enough then I have really problem to say anything. (Small talk, sensing stuff, talking about feeling and emotions...). Imo you just need to better understand what you want to say, gather more data, etc...
This is me. Sometimes I talk so fast its like I am one of those stereotypical Hollywood women on their cellphone. But other times I am so slow people think I am autistic. My speed of thought is dependent on how fast my subconscious puts it all together.
 

v3nge

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#16
Maybe it's because I smoked too much weed in high school... Lmao.
 

v3nge

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#17
I think I've figured out what the issue is. I'll talk about it here in case there are others who want to fix this (so to speak).

After reading all of your great replies, I decided to try priming myself a bit before recording videos today. I started with some meditation while listening to the brainwave entertainment that baccheion suggested, to help get into a flow state and get out of my head, then I did some bioenergetic type movements (look it up if you're interested) because I thought it may help raise my energy level, and I actually went over what I was going to talk about beforehand so that I could organize it in my head and also get it into my short term memory.

I was just looking back at the videos I filmed today and comparing them to ones I filmed a couple days ago and my speaking is much more fluent and less staccato. I still have umms and ahhs to work out, but other than that it is much better. I don't know how this could be applied to a social situation, but for my purposes it seems to work well.

My conclusion is that: A. I need to have something structured in my head already (i.e. have already talked about it before) before I can communicate it effectively.
And B. I am a naturally chill, low energy person, so in order to be a more effective speaker I need to raise my internal tempo to meet that of the rest of the world. When I was recording the videos today, I felt like I was speaking too fast, but after watching them back I realized that I was actually just speaking at a normal pace. Similarly, when I recorded videos before, I thought I was speaking at a normal pace, but when I watched them back I realized that my speech was a little slow and choppy.

Anyway, thanks for all the help everyone. I appreciate it! :)
 

baccheion

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#18
Thanks for the advice. I've taken Piracetam and Aniracetam in the past, but I prefer Huperazine A, which is what I take now with Alpha GPC. They're all acetylcholinesterase inhibitors, but for me Hup A seems to work better. I find that my memory recall is much better, but my verbal fluency is mostly the same.
How long did you take piracetam and how much did you take? I suppose it doesn't work for everyone. Also, what led you to believe piracetam didn't increase verbal fluidity? Usually, those who take it say they don't notice anything, but then start receiving comments from others.

P21/cerebrolysin is flow state in a box. There's also N-acetyl semax amidate (+ N-acetyl selank if it causes anxiety) + alpha-GPC.

Talking really fast implies high glutamate (need more GABA). Low energy, if not physical (ie, not fixed by nutrition and/or a good multivitamin like AOR Ortho-Core), implies a need for more dopamine/norepinephrine. See the braverman thread I linked to in my last reply for suggestions.

Other suggestions:

- https://www.reddit.com/r/Nootropics/comments/4nww83/increasing_verbal_fluency/

- https://www.reddit.com/r/Nootropics/comments/53l2mz/which_nootropics_for_verbal_fluency/
 

v3nge

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#19
How long did you take piracetam and how much did you take? I suppose it doesn't work for everyone. Also, what led you to believe piracetam didn't increase verbal fluidity? Usually, those who take it say they don't notice anything, but then start receiving comments from others.

There's also N-acetyl semax amidate (+ N-acetyl selank if it causes anxiety) + alpha-GPC.

Other suggestions:

- https://www.reddit.com/r/Nootropics/comments/4nww83/increasing_verbal_fluency/

- https://www.reddit.com/r/Nootropics/comments/53l2mz/which_nootropics_for_verbal_fluency/
I took piracetam with choline for about 2 or 3 months I think. It's been a while. I didn't notice any major increase in verbal fluency. There may have been some small increase, but it wasn't worth the effort of taking it three times a day. I know piracetam works well for a lot of people though.

Edit: Also I don't believe in taking supplements long term anyway. With Hupe A I notice effects on a short term basis.
 

baccheion

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#20
I took piracetam with choline for about 2 or 3 months I think. It's been a while. I didn't notice any major increase in verbal fluency. There may have been some small increase, but it wasn't worth the effort of taking it three times a day. I know piracetam works well for a lot of people though.

Edit: Also I don't believe in taking supplements long term anyway. With Hupe A I notice effects on a short term basis.
How much did you take? Try the other supplements I mentioned (semax, selank, p21, etc). They are much stronger.
 

v3nge

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#21
How much did you take? Try the other supplements I mentioned (semax, selank, p21, etc). They are much stronger.
It was 3 grams I believe. I'll definitely look into that when I have sufficient funds lol. What is the mechanism of action, are they cholinesterase inhibitors or?
 

ZenRaiden

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#22
Speaking fluently and meaningfuly is something you need to practice. Back in ancient world they had rethoric schools where they would learn to speak in front of people. You can clearly see difference between those who have no practice and those who put a lot of effort into it.

But its important to realize that speaking and thinking at the same time is hard. Complex concepts cannot be entertained by the mind when your mind is busy formulating a sentence and working on the next sentence that follows up. So to speak about stuff that is complicated you first have to have learned it. Not to mention that even professors who teach for years still migth struggle with explaining complex concepts efficiently and well enough to make them both understandable and well formulated.
 

HDINTP

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#24
Not at all. I think and speak really fast. On the other hand it makes it difficult for people to keep up with me. My mother is same to some extent and says she finds those who are slow and pause frequently "annying"
 

Niclmaki

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#25
*laughs in ENTP*

But seriously, I have always been good at speaking “off the cuff” or in front of a crowd. I don’t think it ever really bothered me much. I do however, have an annoying habit of trying to speed other peoples conversations along by guessing what they’ll say. It feels like it takes too long to wait.

My brother that is an INTP is completely the opposite. He’ll be silent for a very lomg time. But when he does speak he makes sure his point only has a .001% chance of being misunderstood.
 

Jennywocky

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#26
I do better in front of crowds when (1) I have a firm grasp over the information I'm explaining but (2) I don't have to adhere to a rigid script. So I'll try to keep a general outline with me so I don't miss stuff.

the Q&A format is something I really do well at, versus a presentation. If I know a topic, I love getting questions. I've actually done a few of those and excelled at them, because then it's about (1) me providing them with information -- Informing type -- in (2) a way I am perceiving on the fly that they need to grasp what I'm saying... it's a puzzle of "how do I communicate these ideas in a way that is meaningful and understandable by them." And it's all on the fly.

But to be honest, I like writing far better than public speaking. People say I am far more articulate when speaking than I think I am, but my level of comfort is much higher when writing, not talking.
 
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#27
Wow. My inability to articulate my ideas in an understandable way to others on the spot always made me question my intelligence - "If I was an intelligent person, I'd be able to find a way to explain it" and I generally just felt dumb
 

QuickTwist

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#28
Wow. My inability to articulate my ideas in an understandable way to others on the spot always made me question my intelligence - "If I was an intelligent person, I'd be able to find a way to explain it" and I generally just felt dumb
In my estimation, it has little to do with intelligence because I have this problem and I am not even a standard deviation above average.

Now what I DO know is that I am a very strong right brained person (I know this through the neuropsychological testing I did). That may actually explain it better because the left side of the brain is used for language, roughly speaking.
 

baccheion

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#29
Wow. My inability to articulate my ideas in an understandable way to others on the spot always made me question my intelligence - "If I was an intelligent person, I'd be able to find a way to explain it" and I generally just felt dumb
In my estimation, it has little to do with intelligence because I have this problem and I am not even a standard deviation above average.

Now what I DO know is that I am a very strong right brained person (I know this through the neuropsychological testing I did). That may actually explain it better because the left side of the brain is used for language, roughly speaking.
See the nootropic suggestions I gave above. And add a good multivitamin like AOR Ortho-Core (comprehensive) or Thorne 2/day (basic). And 1g+ DHA (Doctor's Best DHA 500 or Doctor's Best Real Krill Enhanced with EPA & DHA).
 

QuickTwist

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#30
See the nootropic suggestions I gave above. And add a good multivitamin like AOR Ortho-Core (comprehensive) or Thorne 2/day (basic). And 1g+ DHA (Doctor's Best DHA 500 or Doctor's Best Real Krill Enhanced with EPA & DHA).
I don't have extra cash just lying around for me to invest in a bunch of chemicals that may or may not even work.
 

baccheion

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#31
I don't have extra cash just lying around for me to invest in a bunch of chemicals that may or may not even work.
The suggestion I made in the following post, though expensive, will definitely work: https://www.intpforum.com/threads/do-other-intps-have-issues-with-verbal-fluency.27050/post-581986. There's also noopept ($7.99 for 100 weeks at 10 mg sublingually 5 days/week) which is cheap and somewhat similar to SEMAX. Life Extension Two-per-day (1 capsule) is a cheaper ($16.99 for 24 weeks when taken 5 days on and 2 days off) multivitamin that's still good, but AOR Ortho-Core is preferred.

- N-acetyl semax amidate: https://www.ceretropic.com/n-acetyl-semax-amidate-spray
- N-acetyl selank: https://www.ceretropic.com/n-acetyl-selank-spray
- P21: https://www.ceretropic.com/p21spray
- Alpha-GPC: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XHCS137

- AOR Ortho-Core: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01BWAJSZO?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1
-Thorne 2/day: https://www.amazon.com/Thorne-Research-Nutrients-Multivitamin-Certified/dp/B0797HZ78W
- Doctor's Best DHA 500: https://www.amazon.com/Doctors-Best-Calamarine-Non-GMO-Softgels/dp/B0057M3SDM
- Doctor's Best Real Krill Enhanced with EPA & DHA: https://www.amazon.com/Doctors-Best-Enhanced-SUPERBA-Softgels/dp/B003XA2IGS

- Noopept: http://nootropicsdepot.com/noopept/
- Life Extension Two-per-day: https://www.amazon.com/Life-Extension-Multivitamin-Supplement-Capsules/dp/B075Z1LGTJ
 
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#32
Those supplements have no scientific backing.
 

baccheion

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#33
Those supplements have no scientific backing.
Which have no scientific backing? AOR Ortho-Core, for example, is one of the most science-based multivitamin formulations I've ever seen. As for N-acetyl semax amidate and N-acetyl selank, they are newer/less-tested versions of SEMAX and selank. SEMAX, selank, noopept, and cerebrolysin have many associated studies (see PubMed). SEMAX and selank are so popular in Russia, they are on the government's list of essentials (covered by the state/insurance). P21 is based on cerebrolysin, another well-studied nootropic. That is, if more conservative, you can look into SEMAX, selank, noopept, and cerebrolysin.
 
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#34
Which have no scientific backing? AOR Ortho-Core, for example, is one of the most science-based multivitamin formulations I've ever seen. As for N-acetyl semax amidate and N-acetyl selank, they are newer/less-tested versions of SEMAX and selank. SEMAX, selank, noopept, and cerebrolysin have many associated studies (see PubMed). SEMAX and selank are so popular in Russia, they are on the government's list of essentials (covered by the state/insurance). P21 is based on cerebrolysin, another well-studied nootropic. That is, if more conservative, you can look into SEMAX, selank, noopept, and cerebrolysin.
I just know that when I read a review for Cognifit that they said that they also tried to sell supplements as well for "brain health" which both things haven't had much scientific backing enough for them to actually benefit people.
 

baccheion

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#35
I just know that when I read a review for Cognifit that they said that they also tried to sell supplements as well for "brain health" which both things haven't had much scientific backing enough for them to actually benefit people.
In the case of supplements/nootropics I mentioned, you can search PubMed if in doubt. For example, "semax site:https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/".
 
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#36
They mentioned what WebMD had to say about these supplements. They either don't have enough research to say they are effective or they are simply not effective.
 
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