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Darwinism

TylerRDA

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In every science class I've been in that taught about evolution, it was centered on natural selection and gradual population changes. I have since read much of Darwin's works and journals, and I got the impression that evolution by natural selection was not the crux of his theory. I got the impression that he was saying that 'more evolved' and successful species (through this mechanism called 'natural selection) exhibit more altruism than less evolved species. I feel like perhaps what schools term as "Darwinism" may be inaccurate, similar to teaching the incidental fact that nothing is faster than light as Special Relativity. I feel like to truly teach Darwinism, you teach that evolution by natural selection is the means by which a species becomes altruistic and successful. If you don't think that natural selection yields more altruism, that's okay, but that's not Darwinism (according to my understanding).

And no, this is not a religion/creationism bash thread.
 

gcomeau

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In every science class I've been in that taught about evolution, it was centered on natural selection and gradual population changes. I have since read much of Darwin's works and journals, and I got the impression that evolution by natural selection was not the crux of his theory. I got the impression that he was saying that 'more evolved' and successful species (through this mechanism called 'natural selection) exhibit more altruism than less evolved species.

Perhaps we have different understandings of "atruism", I'm having difficulty seeing how you could perceive that to be the crux of Darwin's arguments about evolution. Care to elaborate?
 

SpaceYeti

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Darwinism isn't really taught in school, any more, as far as I was aware. They tell you the basics, but then they go on to teach the modern theory of evolution, which is a far stretch more advanced than Darwin's theory was such that calling it "Darwinism" is simply inaccurate. What school do you go to that they called it that?
 

Architect

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To his dying day Darwin said that natural selection wasn't the only possible explanation. Some researchers have recently suggested that the mechanism was 'gene transfer' (raiding your neighbor and stealing his genes) for some 3 billion years or so. It's only recently with the rise of complex multi-cellular organisms that natural selection took over.
 

TylerRDA

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Perhaps we have different understandings of "atruism", I'm having difficulty seeing how you could perceive that to be the crux of Darwin's arguments about evolution. Care to elaborate?

In short, taking care of weak or poorly adapted members of a population, which paradoxically contradicts the idea of natural selection and survival of the fittest.

@SpaceYeti, High School in Texas, intelligent design galore >.>. I haven't taken any classes Darwinism/evolution would be taught in yet at BYU.
 

SpaceYeti

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That explains everything, actually.

Taking care of the poor and weak would help the group as a whole, which helps the individual. What makes a house faster, one 275 pound body-builder carpenter master, or a 20 man crew of average carpenters?
 

Agent Intellect

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I've read Origin of Species, and I really don't remember much about altruism in it.

I don't think most people have a problem with natural selection. I think people who are skeptical of evolution are generally skeptical about speciation (a result of natural selection). In order for there to not be natural selection, one would have to assume:

1. Everything either lives or dies completely randomly, regardless of it's relative fitness.
2. All populations are significantly large enough that the gene pool could be said to be infinite (the number of possible combination's is incalculably large).
3. Everything mates completely randomly (no organism selects it's mate).
4. No mutations occur in subsequent generations.
5. There is no genetic drift or gene flow/migration.
6. Land masses, climates, and ecology/environments are static.
7. Nothing has ever gone extinct.

All of these assumptions have been shown to be false time and again, even on the ridiculously short timescale that we have A) known about natural selection and B) have tested and measured it.

Like SpaceYeti said, evolution as Darwin understood it is not really part of present day biology curricula. Chuck gave us a great jumping off point, but the development of things like genetics, genetic mutation rate, sexual recombination, horizontal gene transfer, symbiosis/parasitism, radiometric dating, molecular homology, plate tectonics, genetic engineering and many other techniques have given us insights that old Chuckles could have never dreamed of.

I can only wonder what Darwin would have even thought had he heard of Mendel's work (a contemporary of his) much less what we know today.
 

Jah

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Richard Dawkins, The Selfish Gene.

Read that book.
It should be part of everyone's education to read it.

It does clarify the subject of altruism, (which appears detrimental to the single organism, but is clearly a good strategy when you consider that the genes that program this behaviour are likely to be spread out over several individuals, especially those of close kin, and may through this strategy also increase their own probability of surviving in several organisms.) as well as a host of other questions.

Read it.
 

gcomeau

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Richard Dawkins, The Selfish Gene.

Read that book.
It should be part of everyone's education to read it.

It does clarify the subject of altruism, (which appears detrimental to the single organism, but is clearly a good strategy when you consider that the genes that program this behaviour are likely to be spread out over several individuals, especially those of close kin, and may through this strategy also increase their own probability of surviving in several organisms.) as well as a host of other questions.

Read it.

Read it, enjoyed it... not sure if you're suggesting some of the strategies it discusses qualify as "altruistic" but I wouldn't say they generally do. All of them are, from the "gene's point of view", selfish... as the book title indicates. In any case where they result in reproductive/survival strategies that might appear beneficial to other members of the species it is simply a case of game theory. That strategy works best in that particular case so whoever uses it wins.

Sometimes this results in individual members of a species engaging in apparently altruistic behavior and sometimes it doesn't, but evolutionary mechanisms are certainly not somehow generally biased towards altruism. They're biased towards what works.
 

Jah

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Read it, enjoyed it... not sure if you're suggesting some of the strategies it discusses qualify as "altruistic" but I wouldn't say they generally do. All of them are, from the "gene's point of view", selfish... as the book title indicates. In any case where they result in reproductive/survival strategies that might appear beneficial to other members of the species it is simply a case of game theory. That strategy works best in that particular case so whoever uses it wins.

Sometimes this results in individual members of a species engaging in apparently altruistic behavior and sometimes it doesn't, but evolutionary mechanisms are certainly not somehow generally biased towards altruism. They're biased towards what works.

There is a chapter dedicated to the apparent incongruence of selfish evolution and altruistic behaviour, which delves into game theory and explains a lot through how, by also helping your brother your genes are likely to help themselves 50% (approximately)

It's selfish from the POV of the Gene, but may appear altruistic at the level of the individual that performs the action encoded. (I don't think I need go deeper. I may have been a mite imprecise in my previous post, and not specify sharply enough the apparent divide between the motives of the gene and those of the larger individual containing the genes.)

You see a person helping another (altruism), the genes see a strategy for increasing their odds of long-term survival. (selfishness)
 

gcomeau

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There is a chapter dedicated to the apparent incongruence of selfish evolution and altruistic behaviour, which delves into game theory and explains a lot through how, by also helping your brother your genes are likely to help themselves 50% (approximately)

It's selfish from the POV of the Gene, but may appear altruistic at the level of the individual that performs the action encoded. (I don't think I need go deeper. I may have been a mite imprecise in my previous post, and not specify sharply enough the apparent divide between the motives of the gene and those of the larger individual containing the genes.)

You see a person helping another (altruism), the genes see a strategy for increasing their odds of long-term survival. (selfishness)

Fair enough.

(I feel compelled to clarify for anyone reading along that statements like "the gene sees" and "the motives of the genes" are metaphorical.)
 

Jah

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(Of course. ;)) thank you for clarifying.
 

gcomeau

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(Of course. ;)) thank you for clarifying.

After all the creationists I've talked to over the years who say things like "well, how did evolution know what it had to change... huh? HUH???" I just had to say it. :D
 

Jah

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yeah... it couldn't all just be random.

That's right.


It's God or it's random.
 

Jackooboy

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I think there are different end results within the evolutionary context.

If you look at microorganisms, (which we supposedly evolved from) you'll notice some are parasitic, some synergistic, others are symbiotic. Yet other are neutral towards other organisms, but actually are helping support other microorganisms without knowing it...

Overall, there's much variation in relationships between microorganisms. Similarly, there's variation in animalia. Some animals live in communion with eachother and work together for the good of the group while others only eat other animals and are more lone hunters while other animals only eat grass. Ultimately, there are very different and very complex existences supporting various ways of existence.
 

ummidk

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Yea I'm wondering where they teach Darwinism.
 

boondockbabe

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Out here they did'nt teach either. We also skipped The Oddesy in english. when you live in the bible belt you don't get a proper education. There was a fight a couple of years ago that if the school was going to teach the big bang theory then there needed to be a section devoted to creationism!! Crazy stupid shit.

Evolution is somthing that is happening all the time. We(every living thing on this planet) are constantly adapting and evolving. Our enviornment influences everything. It's like its flipping a switch in our genes for the next generation. We already know this is how we got so many different breeds of dogs. They evolved-partly natural and partly man. Breeding a horse because it has a pretty coat pattern in the hope of creating a pretty coat pattern is still an evolution. It is just a eveolution created by man. My question is how much has man caused the world around him to evolve. How would the living beings on this planet differ if we had not interfered. We have always interfered.

How we came to exist is not as important to me as what do we need to do to continue to exist.
 

ApostateAbe

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In every science class I've been in that taught about evolution, it was centered on natural selection and gradual population changes. I have since read much of Darwin's works and journals, and I got the impression that evolution by natural selection was not the crux of his theory. I got the impression that he was saying that 'more evolved' and successful species (through this mechanism called 'natural selection) exhibit more altruism than less evolved species. I feel like perhaps what schools term as "Darwinism" may be inaccurate, similar to teaching the incidental fact that nothing is faster than light as Special Relativity. I feel like to truly teach Darwinism, you teach that evolution by natural selection is the means by which a species becomes altruistic and successful. If you don't think that natural selection yields more altruism, that's okay, but that's not Darwinism (according to my understanding).

And no, this is not a religion/creationism bash thread.
Natural selection most certainly is the crux of Darwin's theory of evolution. It is not the only mechanism, but that is how Darwin proposed that evolution generally happens. It isn't about altruism. Altruism often follows from natural selection, but not all of the time. Sometimes, males kill their male rivals and eat their children to compete genetically. Sometimes, mothers eat their own children when food is short. It really is about natural selection.
 

Jah

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Out here they did'nt teach either. We also skipped The Oddesy in english. when you live in the bible belt you don't get a proper education. There was a fight a couple of years ago that if the school was going to teach the big bang theory then there needed to be a section devoted to creationism!! Crazy stupid shit.

YouTube - XTC-Dear God
 

scorpiomover

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That explains everything, actually.

Taking care of the poor and weak would help the group as a whole, which helps the individual. What makes a house faster, one 275 pound body-builder carpenter master, or a 20 man crew of average carpenters?

It depends.

If it's a new design, then the average carpenters are likely to mess it up. They are likely to put the beams in the wrong place, and find that they cannot finish the job. Even if they get the house built quicker, they house is still likely to be wrong.

If it's the 20th in a row of identical houses, then they are likely to 'copy and paste' what they've done before. So the 20 will easily outpace the 1.
 

Jah

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Ngh.
Wouldn't that argument also apply to the bigger, stronger guy as well ?

(And if it's a competition, they can also distract and bully the bigger guy while the rest of the group finishes the job.)

https://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/17/opinion/17brooks.html?_r=1&hp




"Btw. your signature is wrong." - Sherlock Holmes

(and welcome to the forum. )
 

SpaceYeti

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It depends.

If it's a new design, then the average carpenters are likely to mess it up. They are likely to put the beams in the wrong place, and find that they cannot finish the job. Even if they get the house built quicker, they house is still likely to be wrong.

If it's the 20th in a row of identical houses, then they are likely to 'copy and paste' what they've done before. So the 20 will easily outpace the 1.
Yeah, I hear about carpenters building houses wrong constantly.

I mean, using cheaper materials and shit like that, sure, but building a house wrong? I suppose average chefs also make spaghetti wrong pretty often.

Dude, it's a house. No matter how new or modern or whatever, the carpenters measure, cut, and hammer the same way. Even if they somehow manage to build it up side down and inside out, they'll still be able to take it down and do it right before the one super-carpenter builds one house.

The point I'm trying to make is that a group of people working together is far more likely to get it done effectively than people out working by themselves, whether they be building a house, making a banquet, or evolving.
 

scorpiomover

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Yeah, I hear about carpenters building houses wrong constantly.

I mean, using cheaper materials and shit like that, sure, but building a house wrong? I suppose average chefs also make spaghetti wrong pretty often.

Dude, it's a house. No matter how new or modern or whatever, the carpenters measure, cut, and hammer the same way. Even if they somehow manage to build it up side down and inside out, they'll still be able to take it down and do it right before the one super-carpenter builds one house.

The point I'm trying to make is that a group of people working together is far more likely to get it done effectively than people out working by themselves, whether they be building a house, making a banquet, or evolving.
It's true that "two hands are better than one". Teamwork definitely increases production. But "a stitch in time, saves nine". Screw up and don't catch it early on, and it will cost you 10 times as much as doing it the first time.

Examples:

The Scottish Parliament building was initially estimated at between £10 million and £40 million. It came in at final cost, at £414 million. A major inquiry was held into why it cost 10 times as much. The management was found at fault, from not estimating costs properly, to the way in which "major design changes were implemented".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Parliament_Building

Also, there was supposed to be a new NHS computer system. It came in at £750 million. Half the doctors and nurses couldn't use it. The other half found it took much more time to use it, than to do it by hand. The system was scrapped.

If you want to look up cases like this, just Google "nhs it system scrapped". You'll be horrified at how much money went down the drain, because of poorly-planned computer systems, and that's just in the NHS, let alone all the other government departments, and let alone the country as a whole.

Why do all these major screw-ups happen?

To quote Edison: "The first requisite for success is to develop the ability to focus and apply your mental and physical energies to the problem at hand - without growing weary. Because such thinking is often difficult, there seems to be no limit to which some people will go to avoid the effort and labor that is associated with it...."
http://www.thomasedison.com/quotes.html

Just leaving it to a bunch of random people who are probably NOT keeping their minds and bodies on the task, usually results in a mess, and the bigger and more important the job, the bigger and worse the mess.

However, you can employ someone to do the job conscientiously, provided that you find someone who is that conscientious, which he will display, because that's the way he has done everything in his life. He can then employ others, delegate the work, and oversee it, to make sure that it is done properly.

If the job is big enough that he cannot do it himself, then he will often employ others, and spend the time planning out what each will do, then explaining to each person what to do, and then going round checking their work, and requiring changes where necessary. But in many jobs, he already knows that it will be quicker for him to do it himself.

Getting back to the topic of group selection versus individual selection:

1) A 275 pound body-builder carpenter master, wasn't always that way, and won't be. He was born a baby. He will die an old man. In between, he will get sick. All those times, he will need help from others. or he could die.

Most of the time, he will be healthy. So most of the time, he won't need help. But in a minority of situations, he will need help, and the cost of not getting the help then, will be huge to him. So it is in his interest to help others, to ensure that when he needs help, he too will get helped.

2) The MAIN advantage of a 275 pound body-builder carpenter master over a 20 man crew of average carpenters, is that under his direction, the crew can accomplish many times what either could accomplish alone. So it is still in his interest to help the crew, and to direct them.

Individual selection wins over group selection, in any ONE situation. But overall, when you consider many situations, group selection wins, and life is made of many situations.
 
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We already know this is how we got so many different breeds of dogs. They evolved-partly natural and partly man. Breeding a horse because it has a pretty coat pattern in the hope of creating a pretty coat pattern is still an evolution. It is just a eveolution created by man. My question is how much has man caused the world around him to evolve. How would the living beings on this planet differ if we had not interfered. We have always interfered.

I always like using the example of different breeds of dogs when talking to creationists. I also use the example of bacterial antibiotic resistance.

One thing I would ask is why our "interference" is not natural. Admittedly domestication of everything from wheat to horses to pigs to finches seems to be 'unnatural', but humans are a part of this world (we're natural - sort of) and an evolutionary pressure has been brought to bear by another animal.

In an admittedly far-fetched comparison how about the aphids that certain species of ants have "domesticated". Is that not "natural" selection? If it is, then how are we not merely the agents of natural selection.

To a certain extent this is semantics rather than a true investigation of the question, but as a classic INTP I question the basis of EVERYTHING!
 

Tangent

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Creationists make SpaceYeti a sad panda.

But the eye is so complicated- only a god could have created it! What purpose does half an eye have? *runs*:elephant:

This guy explaining how bananas prove the existence of god is wonderful. It gets a little too sexually explicit though for my conservative tastes. YouTube - ‪Kirk Cameron And Bananas‬‏

EDIT: im not bashing... I swear
 
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