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Conversation with redbaron

Salmoneus

solvitur ambulando
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#51
Ok.
You figured that a certain idea is really stupid.
If you're smart you will throw this idea on the trash pile of ideas.
You won't even think about incorporating it into your idea pool.
Clear enough?
 
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#52
Ok.
You figured that a certain idea is really stupid.
If you're smart you will throw this idea on the trash pile of ideas.
You won't even think about incorporating it into your idea pool.
Clear enough?
Whoa, are we ever riding different waves man.

The "idea" that I thought was "silly" was called "20 questions" and it's a brute force strategy to obtain information that is used by immature and poorly disciplined children.

Don't be so crazy!
 

Salmoneus

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#53
The only one who has raised mature issues in this thread so far is BAP.
Yet, no one likes to address these points and devolutionizes into the face-palm meme.
Who is immature in this exchange of ideas?
 
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#54
Ok but, I was just putting it out there, that the forum is exhibiting a sensitization response to BAP, and due to the non-associative nature of this phenomenon, basically anything he does that remotely resembles the original target behaviour is now eliciting a strong response of irritation and exacerbation.......

Along these lines, I was also indicating that this particularly unnerving state of sensitization would have been avoided if this guy was sharp enough to take note of the god damned habituation effects that unfolded right before his eyes.

His reply was, along the lines of "ok great, now make a list of questions because that's the way to get answers".... Like wtf. I called it a silly game, and refused to play.

And that's when you got all defensive and crusader.

......Does not compute,...... response not logical to situation, .......system overload.........mayday.....
 

Salmoneus

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#55
No one is exposing this "sensitization response to BAP" except you.
 

Jennywocky

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#56
The only one who has raised mature issues in this thread so far is BAP.
Yet, no one likes to address these points and devolutionizes into the face-palm meme.
Who is immature in this exchange of ideas?
Maybe you need to step back and look at the bigger picture.
This thread is just the end of a months-long train wreck that likely preceded your appearance on this forum.
Not much else to say about it.
 
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#57
No one is exposing this "sensitization response to BAP" except you.
No you are wrong.

Did you even read the page on sensitization?
Have you seen how many threads he's made lately? One after the next after the next,,, always the same thing. Talk about members, talk about Pi, talk about how Pi was with this member etc, personas, thread closings, Lyra part XIII,

Mods closing threads, telling him to stop, Kuu says stop, everybody facepalms, Pi's a joke, always the same thing

Fuck me. Yes you damn fool the whole forum is demonstrating the sensitization response. These threads get 40-60 replies over and over and they're always the same, Pi doesn't get it and each member takes a turn.
 

redbaron

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#58
Maybe you need to step back and look at the bigger picture.
This thread is just the end of a months-long train wreck that likely preceded your appearance on this forum.
Not much else to say about it.
Years-long*
 

Salmoneus

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#59
Okay.
Even given that all of this is true.
You are mature INTPs, i presume, why would this conflict be out of the sphere of resolvable issues?
 

Salmoneus

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#60
I think you are looking through a different lense that BAP is looking though.
I also don't agree on your notion that BAP is a joke.
The way i see it, he has contributed substantial material to many discussions so far and therefore is a viable member of this board.
 
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#62
Yawn. I respectfully offered an opinion regarding the underlying psychological forces that I believe are exerting themselves .... And offered the perspective that these forces can be manipulated if only one knew how they worked.

You want to make it look like I said his ideas are really fucking stupid and that I have the notion that he is a joke,

I can't help you.
 

Salmoneus

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#64
Am i?
Well, isn't it then your duty to make a reference??
Until you do that you are not more believable than anyone else.
 

Salmoneus

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#65
No, you have to provide to me the evidence, you cannot say to me, dig the archives.
That's turning the judicial system on its head.
 

redbaron

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#68
It's a forum not a judicial system.
 
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#69
Salmoneus you actually haven't had any insight to contribute either. You are just being critical of people based on isolated incidents of their responses in this thread only.

You're, in effect, outright ignoring the potential for habituation effects to occur, by suggesting each thread receives a high amount of attentiveness and fair play,

But not acknowledging that the game itself isn't fair because he isn't allowing the forum any down time to cool off between these threads. Without this requisite down time, people are sure to habituate to his threads and then when the stimulus still persists post-habituation, people get sensitive to it. And what I'm saying is now they have reached the point where they are sensitive to everything and responding with general irritation.


You want a freaking answer as to why everybody is so freaking sensitive well here is your freaking answer. Damn,

It doesn't even take years or months, it can take weeks depending on how attentive one generally is to the forum...
 
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#70
Group hug! NAO!!! :beatyou:
 

Salmoneus

solvitur ambulando
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#71
Which means precisely what?
Forum, define the word for me please, if you can be a?sed to do so.
1234
 

Salmoneus

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#72
My sense of common sense may be revolting.
In this case.
Note that i share many of your uttered opinions on other topics without explicitly giving my kudos though...
 

Salmoneus

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#73
Salmoneus you actually haven't had any insight to contribute either. You are just being critical of people based on isolated incidents of their responses in this thread only.

You're, in effect, outright ignoring the potential for habituation effects to occur, by suggesting each thread receives a high amount of attentiveness and fair play,

But not acknowledging that the game itself isn't fair because he isn't allowing the forum any down time to cool off between these threads. Without this requisite down time, people are sure to habituate to his threads and then when the stimulus still persists post-habituation, people get sensitive to it. And what I'm saying is now they have reached the point where they are sensitive to everything and responding with general irritation.

Group hug as the doc prescribed :)
You want a freaking answer as to why everybody is so freaking sensitive well here is your freaking answer. Damn,

It doesn't even take years or months, it can take weeks depending on how attentive one generally is to the forum...
Well, surely you seem to take this very serious, but i fail to recognize why this incident may bring INTPf down...

Group hug as the doctor prescribed :ahh::dolphin::grouphug:
 
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#74
Well, surely you seem to take this very serious,
Ohhhh please don't argue that way! Barf... Puke ...vomit.... I feel sick

What I take seriously should be very obvious - my own worldview and my logical explanations for the world around me.

>>Pi's got a situation ... Here is what caused it ... Here is how to fix it .... Here is how to avoid it .... End transmission<<
 

Salmoneus

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#78
Well, what may be to you perfectly clear terms, is not making much sense to me, that's what i wanted to communicate to you.
I experience BAP as a valuable member of this community.
 

redbaron

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#79
Why are you bringing baseball bats to a group hug? Sounds like the worst hug ever.

Here, just let me and these three people hug you...WITH BASEBALL BATS.
 
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#80
At the risk of taking this too far, is it fair for me to ask you one more time what it is about what I said that doesn't actually make sense to you?

This time, can you actually point to factual occurrences of behaviour, rather than imaginary?

No hugs I'm sitting this one out.
 

Salmoneus

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#82
Well, so far, for every one line reply any of you wrote BAP has provided a multiple paragraph reply, which was not addressed by you in subsequent replies.
Which clearly indicates to me that your refutation or objection is not grounded very well.
 
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#83
Well, so far, for every one line reply any of you wrote BAP has provided a multiple paragraph reply, which was not addressed by you in subsequent replies.
Which clearly indicates to me that your refutation or objection is not grounded very well.
Inaccurate. Actually, if you refer back to the exchange that started this whole argument this evening, it was BAP providing a cryptic, one-or-two-line reply to my multi-paragraph post regarding the relevant psychology (habituation Yada yada yada) in the forum that pertains to his struggle.

The quoted text just goes to prove that you are being deliberately unfair in grouping all of the thread participants together into one singular force of ignorance, and not actually considering what each participant has said about the subject at hand.

If this were my kingdom I would condemn thee to wear no pants for a week. Sigh...
 

Salmoneus

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#84
Okay, let's assume, i don't understand anything which has happened so far.
I am not ignorant, i just don't understand.
Make your point.
And make it in a manner that any man outside of years of INTPf lurking can understand and follow through.
I will give you that fair chance.
 

TheScornedReflex

(Per) Version of a truth.
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#85
Well, so far, for every one line reply any of you wrote BAP has provided a multiple paragraph reply, which was not addressed by you in subsequent replies.
Which clearly indicates to me that your refutation or objection is not grounded very well.
The pattern of insanity.

Get a clue kid. This has been on going for a good while. Others have hinted at your ignorance on the subject, as you are a new board member. Dig the vaults and do some research.

Fuel for the fire.. Oops
 

redbaron

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#86
Well, so far, for every one line reply any of you wrote BAP has provided a multiple paragraph reply, which was not addressed by you in subsequent replies.
Which clearly indicates to me that your refutation or objection is not grounded very well.
Yeah because the amount of verbiage you fit into a post is a good indication of whether or not the argument is grounded or not.

:babytap:
 

Salmoneus

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#87
I am old, you are young.
Wisen up kid.
Perfect logic.
Well, if you're so wise, why can't you communicate these ideas clearly?
 

redbaron

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#88
I am old, you are young.
Wisen up kid.
Perfect logic.
Well, if you're so wise, why can't you communicate these ideas clearly?
You know in the time you've spent posting in this thread, you could have just looked through the archives yourself.
 
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#89
Ok this will be my last attempt at making my point. After this I give up.

BAP engages in a repeated pattern of behaviour that consists of perpetually opening new threads for him to air out his concerns about how everybody is acting with long winded and obscure posts that are purposefully neglectful of others perspective.

Note that my argument/point is not that this is bad or undesirable. That is for those affected to claim. Myself, as the shirtless observer with a beer and binoculars, on the other hand, have a different perspective. One that attempts to retain meta cognitive flavour,

And that is, that the forum has become sensitized to this habitual behaviour and therefore he has cut himself off from achieving the desired effect. This can be avoided by allowing for a cooling off period between stimuli to allow time for the habituation/sensitization effects to wear off.

What don't you get? Why do you keep changing my standpoint to something else? Why don't I make sense?! How is this an attack on BAP? How is it thoughtless or unhelpful or abrasive or non-productive or any of these things? You just keep repeating that I don't make sense and then when you attempt to reiterate things it comes out all wrong because you're not paying attention you're a fucking god damned troll fuck you troll.
 

Salmoneus

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#90
you're a fucking god damned troll fuck you troll.
Thank you, at this point, i don't want to continue this conversation.
And besides, it clearly tells me something about your reason-ability.
 

Salmoneus

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#91
You know in the time you've spent posting in this thread, you could have just looked through the archives yourself.
Same goes for you.
In the same time you stated this nonsensical sentence you could have explained to me what the hell is going on.
 

Absurdity

Prolific Member
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#92
Same goes for you.
In the same time you stated this nonsensical sentence you could have explained to me what the hell is going on.
You really are not contributing anything of value to this thread and I would appreciate it if you ceased posting or took a different approach.

It is not incumbent upon anyone else to make you understand something. They may if they are so inclined and if you ask them to nicely, but if not (or if you simply fail to understand their clearly-worded explanations as you have in this thread) you should grow up and go do your own research. I really should not have to explain this and I am running out of patience with you.

Consider this a warning.
 

Salmoneus

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#93
You fail to understand.
But, i will forgive you.
I'm out of here.
Not because of your warning,
but because i realize when i am talking to an inanimate object.
It's really a pity, since i thought i have made clear to you that we think much the same on other topics.
Oh, well...
 

Blarraun

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#94
No you are wrong.

Did you even read the page on sensitization?
Have you seen how many threads he's made lately? One after the next after the next,,, always the same thing. Talk about members, talk about Pi, talk about how Pi was with this member etc, personas, thread closings, Lyra part XIII,

Mods closing threads, telling him to stop, Kuu says stop, everybody facepalms, Pi's a joke, always the same thing

Fuck me. Yes you damn fool the whole forum is demonstrating the sensitization response. These threads get 40-60 replies over and over and they're always the same, Pi doesn't get it and each member takes a turn.
This generalisation is needless. For the sake of clarity I do not agree that BAP should get used to the stimulus. He is not an animal, he should understand and close this himself when he decides it is fitting.

I think that one thing he does really wrong is involving others in his problem, his threads should be open and anyone that cares to join and help him should be allowed to do this, if you don't like what he does then leave him alone in his sandbox imo.

Also when he attacks other members, or acts in a way that is interpreted as an attack, it is a part of involvement and it should be controlled.

That is partially why explanation and understanding instead of getting used to the situation is required.
The only one who has raised mature issues in this thread so far is BAP.
Yet, no one likes to address these points and devolutionizes into the face-palm meme.
Who is immature in this exchange of ideas?
What's up with this? Show me what you don't like in RB and other discoursive posts that appeared.
You fail to understand.
But, i will forgive you.
I'm out of here.
Not because of your warning,
but because i realize when i am talking to an inanimate object.
It's really a pity, since i thought i have made clear to you that we think much the same on other topics.
Oh, well...
This rant was pointless. You may be having a bad time, so I leave it.
 

redbaron

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#95
#420 Sm0k3 w33d 3v3|2yd4y
 
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#96
@Blarraun

I actually didn't say Pi has to get used to anything, especially a stimulus.

I said he IS the stimulus. He is presently unhappy with the response the forum gives him.

I am saying that as a scientist, he should have the cognitive capacity to target a desired response by altering the stimulus. Instead, he uses brute force on the forum in an effort to get his desired response, however the forum has habituated to his lack of variety and inertia, and is now exhibiting classical sensitization responses.

If you think I said Pi is wrongfully habituating or sensitized to something then you must not have read my posts before replying to me.

For you to criticize my argument on the grounds that "he is not an animal" is totally missing the point, because 1, He is an animal, most definitely a subject to the same psychological constructs as other animals (thus, relevant)-- and 2, I am arguing the standpoint that Pi is the one exhibiting the stimulus, not the response.

<Edit>> Also, to address what you said "that generalization is needless", again tells me you just shouldn't be participating in this conversation. That generalization IS the very nature of sensitization.
 
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#97
Pi has a pattern of repeatedly composing new threads that are overtly similar to threads he has made in the recent past. Each time, he posits that he wants everybody to get back to square one, back to basics, and reestablish some logical order to their interpersonal dynamic.

Some posters do entertain his ideas in these threads. Thus, the feedback system is born. At this point, he does not reply in such a way as to progress the conversation forward - but to cause regress, back to the beginning again.

His posts are long, hard to read at times, and occasionally written in the second-person format.

--------------------------------
~~~


My aim, is to reduce all human behaviour to a logical set of principles, which I call ... {psychology}.

After so many trials, what has happened is that some of the forum members have learned (read: become conditioned) to a style of posting that Pi engages in. As rational beings, they have concluded that Pi = nonsense conversations that make little progress and take a long time, as well as Pi = seems to "forget" the last time you had a conversation with him and exhibits the same patterns without remorse or restraint; he does not show any signs of learning (learning - being defined as a change in the mechanisms of behaviour as a result of one's environment ... off the top of my head that is.)

Habituation - is really about basic pattern-recognition. A subject quickly learns to ignore a stimulus and no longer respond when it is subjected to multiple trials. This phenomenon is easily demonstrated by the predictable decline in target response after so many trials have occcured.

Sensitization - as mentioned before, is non-associative, meaning that the response becomes generalized to a wide array of target behaviours (note the shift in the terminology of "target"). Sensitization is like a mirror effect - the extraverted counterpart to habituation. This can be seen in things like "facepalming," and generally ignoring thread content, quick responses, irritation, etc. Another remarkable component of sensitization responses is they tend to become increasingly intense with repeated trials. No wonder things get out of hand so fast here, perhaps the amplitude of response is growing at an exponential scale...

So have you noticed how these sensitization effects are exhibited everywhere there is a Pi thread that falls under a very broad category? It's possible it has grown in scope, as well as intensity, and the pattern has not changed. It's completely unreasonable to expect anybody to speak to Pi at all.

Note I am focusing on the patterns not the behaviours themselves.....
 
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#98
Protip to BAP: Stop trying to "fix" anything about the situation, take a break from posting for a few days, reread the whole thing starting in whatever thread things took a wrong turn ending with this one, keep on not posting for a few days again.

You need to clear your head of this shit and then take it in as a whole from an outsiders detached perspective; hence what I suggested you do.
Remember that forums are social places, they are for the most part governed by norm, to a certain degree you simply have to fit in and realize that no matter how logical you think you're being it doesn't matter if you're stepping on toes; poking your nose and being annoying. It doesn't matter what you points you make or what faults you spot in others when all that takes place in this thread which is but just a branch on a tree.

And speaking of logic, if you look at things inductively then you are always at the heart of these repeated conflicts.

Finally, for gods sake stop trying to "fix" shit.
Thank you guys. I will try to listen to your advice. Special thanks to you Cherry Cola for your "big picture" advice, to Salmoneus for your insight, to Base groove for telling me we have drama overload, and to Absurdity for keeping his calm under those conditions.

As much as many INTx's can be loners, I believe no one is an island. We can all learn from each other if we hear each other. I will be available via email.

I have an idea for a short story of one meeting Galileo and Leonardo ... so far unwritten. The big picture will be awfully hard to see. Everyone has a picture.

I will take a sabbatical for say ... one week. Is that long enough?
 

Blarraun

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#99
<Edit>> Also, to address what you said "that generalization is needless", again tells me you just shouldn't be participating in this conversation. That generalization IS the very nature of sensitization.
Whatever fine, I don't care about this scientific theory you have found, I reacted to the general agressiveness that you were including in your posts. Thanks for reminding me that I shouldn't participate in a conversation, there is probably a theory behind this too.

If you think you can generalise with this theory then go ahead and apply it to people.

I don't feel like explaining now, why you have misunderstood my post and why your applying of models to others is similar to what BAP tried to do with some users.
 
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