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Common descent

RobdoR

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What "scientific" proof is there for a common ancestor of man?

By "scientific" I mean testable, falsifiable and able to make predictions. I know there is some historical (or pre-historical) evidence for a common ancestor of man in the form of fossils. I also realize that if you extrapolate animal variation into the past, you can infer that a common ancestor is possible. But how would you go about demonstrating (again, scientifically) that it is, indeed, true?
 

Agent Intellect

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Mitochondrial DNA
Parasite co-evolution
Intestinal bacteria co-evolution
DNA mutation rate calculations
Comparative embryology (1)

But the biggest load of evidence comes from DNA similarities and molecular markers that fit with the phylogeny that has been constructed through the fossil record. (1) (2). They use methods such as DNA sequence polymorphism, protein allozyme variations, and DNA repeat variation testing (1) (2) and our way of harvesting insulin or bovine growth hormone and other recombinant DNA techniques would not work if there wasn't a strong genetic relationship**.

**
Consequently, the insulin molecule is critical to healthy functioning of vertebrate animals. The gene that codes for insulin is well known, and has been mapped in a multiplicity of organisms, including organisms whose entire genomes have been sequenced, ranging from the pufferfish Tetraodon nigroviridis through to Homo sapiens. There is demonstrable variability in insulin molecules (and the genes coding for them) across the entire panoply of vertebrate taxa. Bovine insulin, for example, is not identical to human insulin. I refer everyone to the following gene sequences, all of which have been obtained from publicly searchable online gene databases:

[1] Human insulin gene on Chromosome 11, which is as follows:

atg gcc ctg tgg atg cgc ctc ctg ccc ctg ctg gcg ctg ctg gcc ctc tgg gga cct gac
cca gcc gca gcc ttt gtg aac caa cac ctg tgc ggc tca cac ctg gtg gaa gct ctc tac
cta gtg tgc ggg gaa cga ggc ttc ttc tac aca ccc aag acc cgc cgg gag gca gag gac
ctg cag gtg ggg cag gtg gag ctg ggc ggg ggc cct ggt gca ggc agc ctg cag ccc ttg
gcc ctg gag ggg tcc ctg cag aag cgt ggc att gtg gaa caa tgc tgt acc agc atc tgc
tcc ctc tac cag ctg gag aac tac tgc aac tag

which codes for the following protein sequence (using the standard single letter mnemonics for individual amino acids, which I have colour coded to match the colour coding in this diagram of the insulin synthesis pathway in humans):

MALWMRLLPLLALLALWGPDPAAAFVNQHLCGSHLVEALYLVCGERGFFYTPKT
RREAEDLQVGQVELGGGPGAGSLQPLALEGSLQKR
GIVEQCCTSICSLYQLENYCN

Now, I refer everyone to this data, which is the coding sequence for insulin in the Lowland Gorilla (differences are highlighted in boldface):

atg gcc ctg tgg atg cgc ctc ctg ccc ctg ctg gcg ctg ctg gcc ctc tgg gga cct gac
cca gcc gcg gcc ttt gtg aac caa cac ctg tgc ggc tcc cac ctg gtg gaa gct ctc tac
cta gtg tgc ggg gaa cga ggc ttc ttc tac aca ccc aag acc cgc cgg gag gca gag gac
ctg cag gtg ggg cag gtg gag ctg ggc ggg ggc cct ggt gca ggc agc ctg cag ccc ttg
gcc ctg gag ggg tcc ctg cag aag cgt ggc atc gtg gaa cag tgc tgt acc agc atc tgc
tcc ctc tac cag ctg gag aac tac tgc aac tag

this codes for the protein sequence:

MALWMRLLPLLALLALWGPDPAAAFVNQHLCGSHLVEALYLVCGERGFFYTPKT
RREAEDLQVGQVELGGGPGAGSLQPLALEGSLQKR
GIVEQCCTSICSLYQLENYCN

which so happens to be the same precursor protein. However, Gorillas are closely related to humans. Let's move a little further away, to the domestic cow, Bos taurus (whose sequence is found here):

atg gcc ctg tgg aca cgc ctg cgg ccc ctg ctg gcc ctg ctg gcg ctc tgg ccc ccc ccc
ccg gcc cgc gcc ttc gtc aac cag cat ctg tgt ggc tcc cac ctg gtg gag gcg ctg tac
ctg gtg tgc gga gag cgc ggc ttc ttc tac acg ccc aag gcc cgc cgg gag gtg gag ggc
ccg cag gtg ggg gcg ctg gag ctg gcc gga ggc ccg ggc gcg ggc ggc ctg gag ggg ccc
ccg cag aag cgt ggc atc gtg gag cag tgc tgt gcc agc gtc tgc tcg ctc tac cag ctg
gag aac tac tgt aac tag

Already this is a smaller sequence - 318 codons instead of 333 - so we KNOW we're going to get a different insulin molecule with this species ... which is as follows:

MALWTRLRPLLALLALWPPPPARAFVNQHLCGSHLVEALYLVCGERGFFYTPK
ARREVEGPQVGALELAGGPGAGGLEGPPQKRGIVE
QCCASVCSLYQLENYCN

clearly a different protein, but one which still functions as an insulin precursor and results in a mature insulin molecule in cows, one which differs in exact sequence from that in humans. Indeed, prior to the advent of transgenic bacteria, into which human insulin genes had been transplanted for the purpose of harnessing those bacteria to produce human insulin for medical use, bovine insulin harvested from the pancreases of slaughtered beef cows was used to treat diabetes mellitus in humans. Now, of course, with the advent of transgenically manufactured true human insulin, from a sterile source, bovine insulin is no longer needed, much to the relief of those who are aware of the risk from BSE.

Moving on again, we have a different coding sequence from the tropical Zebrafish, Danio rerio, (sequence to be found here) which is as follows:

atg gca gtg tgg ctt cag gct ggt gct ctg ttg gtc ctg ttg gtc gtg tcc agt gta agc
act aac cca ggc aca ccg cag cac ctg tgt gga tct cat ctg gtc gat gcc ctt tat ctg
gtc tgt ggc cca aca ggc ttc ttc tac aac ccc aag aga gac gtt gag ccc ctt ctg ggt
ttc ctt cct cct aaa tct gcc cag gaa act gag gtg gct gac ttt gca ttt aaa gat cat
gcc gag ctg ata agg aag aga ggc att gta gag cag tgc tgc cac aaa ccc tgc agc atc
ttt gag ctg cag aac tac tgt aac tga

And this sequence codes for the following protein:

MAVWLQAGALLVLLVVSSVSTNPGTPQHLCGSHLVDALYLVCGPTFTGFFYNP
KRDVEPLLGFLPPKSAQETEVADFAFKDHAELIRK
RGIVEQCCHKPCSIFELQNYCN

so again we have a different insulin precursor protein that is ultimately converted into a different insulin molecule within the Zebra Fish

EDIT: forgot to mention, they can also turn back the clock on evolution through manipulating genes that are already in an animal.
 

eudemonia

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AI you are not communicating; you are obfuscating. Impressive but boring.
 

420MuNkEy

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AI you are not communicating; you are obfuscating. Impressive but boring.
He asked for the scientific evidence, didn't he? Scientific findings and theories (not interpretations of them) tend to be a bit 'boring' to most people.
 

fullerene

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yikes... we haven't heard from you for so long. Are you ok, nia?
 

Renk Fasze

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Claverhouse

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Personally, I'm a strong believer in the multiregional thesis of plural lineages, eg: that different races evolved from different, but similar, animals.




Claverhouse :phear:
 

aracaris

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Personally, I'm a strong believer in the multiregional thesis of plural lineages, eg: that different races evolved from different, but similar, animals.




Claverhouse :phear:

Maybe possible, but I doubt it.

Humans don't even have any known living true taxonomic races ( i.e. subspecies), beyond just the one we all belong to: sapiens sapiens. Even races in other animals arise by splitting off from a single species just enough to become a new subspecies.

I think the only way that such a thing as multiple species converging into one could happen is through hybridization, which might have happened in the past between homo sapiens sapiens and neanderthals (I've even heard there's still some dispute over whether they are a distinct species from us, or just a subspecies but maybe someone on here can chime in on that and clarify it).

However I haven't heard of any evidence that hybridization is responsible for any modern human "race", and whether any human hybrids actually were able to reproduce, let alone whether their genes still survive is disputable.
 

Architectonic

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Personally, I'm a strong believer in the multiregional thesis of plural lineages, eg: that different races evolved from different, but similar, animals.

Because it would be silly to expect elves and dwarves evolved from the same lineage as humans?
 

420MuNkEy

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Because it was be silly to expect elves and dwarves evolved from the same lineage as humans?
Don't be silly... everyone knows elves don't die from the entropy of their own existence and therefore would be the likely common ancestor.
:rolleyes:
 

Hawkeye

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Because it was be silly to expect elves and dwarves evolved from the same lineage as humans?

Ironically, that's what they reckon the human race will evolve and split into.
 

Architectonic

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Don't be silly... everyone knows elves don't die from the entropy of their own existence and therefore would be the likely common ancestor.

What kind of selective processes caused the split? I mean if most elves survive, then there would be no reason for humans to evolve from the common ancestor.
 

420MuNkEy

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What kind of selective processes caused the split? I mean if most elves survive, then there would be no reason for humans to evolve from the common ancestor.
Perhaps it was a genetic mutation brought on by death from overcrowding
 

Architectonic

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Wait, so death causes a mutation that causes death (in the form of a use-by date)?
 

420MuNkEy

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Wait, so death causes a mutation that causes death (in the form of a use-by date)?
No, the groups/clans/towns which had the genetic mutations would prosper more as a group than those who did not and were overcrowded.


Edit: Trying to defend a theoretical genetic mutation in a fictitious species seems like an odd thing to do, but I'll try.
 

aracaris

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Yeah, and elves, especially the immortal ones, tend to have a very very low birth rate, or even a non-existent one anyhow.
Then there's the whole thing about them moving on to some mystical land when they have been around long enough and get tired of the mundane world, which could do as much to solve population problems as actually having death. In most novels/comics/movies that I've read/seen elves tend to be on the rare side, or even dying out.
If anything they could be a symbol of an evolutionary dead end.
 
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