Beyond INTP

[Salwan]

Hi everyone,

I have only joined intpforum a few months ago, that's when I discovered what being INTP meant, and I enjoyed reading these forums, I've been messing and digging within self-growth stuff for about 2 years now, my problem (and feature I guess) is that I move quickly from stage to stage, I don't linger for long if I can see the next stage from where I stand at the moment, so I moved quickly to what's beyond INTP...

First into meditation and the spiritual side, there were some useful things there but nothing revolutionary, then I dug deeper within psychology, about a month ago, odds took me towards the meaning of attraction, psychology of relationships, and finally seduction ()... soon I found myself knee deep in NLP (neuro-lingustic programming) and hypnosis, even though it's been only one month, I can only describe the experience as an epiphany, these things opened up doorways and places in my head I never thought exist, I have changed drastically since then, I experienced more psychological growth during the last month than I had my whole life.. so many things changed in me to the point I had a feeling I almost lost my mind, I had to practically demolish who I was and rebuild it from the ground up to be the person I always wished I was.... and yes, even that kind drastic change is possible if you have the guts to go through with it.
I'm still drilling to this very moment, destroying anchors and creating new ones, destroying unfavorable behavior and replacing it with new more socially likable behavior, I am practically following a blue print that I wrote two weeks ago, a blue print of a new personality, it feels like I'm molding myself like clay...

Also, relationships, that part of our lives that we always feel is out of control, it no longer is for me, I was a guy who didn't know the first thing about women, their psychology, and how they differ compared to us men, it was like half the human population were aliens to me! and regarding the ... ahem ... sexual drive, I never accepted it as part of me, I tried to block it and hide it, and that's the number one reason why someone can't function around women (like my old self), and this thing, the sexual drive, it has a way of biting you back in the ass if you don't accept it,... it turns into lust. Lust causes guilt, and it's downhill from there.

But enough about that, nowadays, my friends seek advice from me regarding their relationships, I could never ever imagine that as a possibility at any point in the past.
Oh yeah, my relationships with my friends and family, it's different now, I am becoming some sort of a leader, and my social circle is growing rapidly.

Perhaps you could get an idea about how I changed if I relate it to myer-briggs typology, I was an INTP to the bone, I just took the test, I'm now a proud ENFJ it seems, no wonder I suddenly get along with my mother! (who is ENFJ based on my analysis).

Of course I'm far from being an expert on the subject, but even now, I know more than I ever imagined possible for me.

So, what the hell do I want from you? I want to put across two points, for your consideration and further discussion:

1. Realizing you are an INTP is not directly helpful to who you are and who you want to be, it's only a useful info, some readout you get, that you could use to direct yourself towards what's the next step is.

2. Change is possible, oh yes... during our childhood and early youth, we kept learning and changing, at that early age we were more susceptible to effect by our parents and environment, you probably never had a conscious choice about learning many things that make you who you are today, I mean who in their right mind would want shampoo phobia or something?
The bad news is that at a certain point, you chose to stop learning and changing and accept who you were at that exact moment, most likely it wasn't a conscious choice again but more of an automatic thing, perhaps it's what people call "growing up"..
...
The good news? you can restart that process consciously, but this time you choose what you want to learn and what you want to change.
It's that simple really...

 

[Anthile]

I call humbug. There is no 'beyond INTP'.

 

[Salwan]

I call humbug. There is no 'beyond INTP'.

Haven't seen the word humbug before, from wikipedia you either mean I'm talking nonsense or that what I said is not understandable.
Since my English isn't that horrible I'm gonna assume you mean nonsense , I know it might be hard to believe, but it happened before, people who were completely introverted, changed along the course of a year (give or take) to a completely different personality, one that is more social and open.

It is really simple from my perspective, imagine if someone handed you a cheatsheet showing how and why people are who they are, you would be able to conclude why you are who you are, and then start looking for ways to change yourself, with enough motivation and dedication you might be able to pull it off, I am still not "stable" in a sense, ie. I need to consciously do many things right against what my subconscious wants to do, it isn't easy and needs a lot of self-convincing.

However. the problem with this thing is that if you don't believe it's possible, you will not be able to do much, you need to change your basic beliefs about this to advance, I guess not everyone is ok with that.

 

[Hawkeye]

Haven't seen the word humbug before, from wikipedia you either mean I'm talking nonsense or that what I said is not understandable.
Since my English isn't that horrible I'm gonna assume you mean nonsense , I know it might be hard to believe, but it happened before, people who were completely introverted, changed along the course of a year (give or take) to a completely different personality, one that is more social and open.

It is really simple from my perspective, imagine if someone handed you a cheatsheet showing how and why people are who they are, you would be able to conclude why you are who you are, and then start looking for ways to change yourself, with enough motivation and dedication you might be able to pull it off, I am still not "stable" in a sense, ie. I need to consciously do many things right against what my subconscious wants to do, it isn't easy and needs a lot of self-convincing.

However. the problem with this thing is that if you don't believe it's possible, you will not be able to do much, you need to change your basic beliefs about this to advance, I guess not everyone is ok with that.

You are of course assuming that everyone takes the definition of the INTP class to be the be all and end all of who they are. Pretty silly assumption if you ask me. :P

Nobody on the planet is 100% INTP and nobody will be. Everyone is a mixture of all the 16 defined classes and we fluctuate daily. People who disagree with this are in denial and perhaps they do take the whole class assigning a little too seriously. In which case, this thread if for them and I shall leave you to 'convert' them. ^^

It's been attempted several times before however and it never really got anywhere.

Gambatte!

 

[Trebuchet]

... then I dug deeper within psychology...soon I found myself knee deep in NLP (neuro-lingustic programming) and hypnosis, even though it's been only one month, I can only describe the experience as an epiphany, these things opened up doorways and places in my head I never thought exist, I have changed drastically since then, I experienced more psychological growth during the last month than I had my whole life.

Hi!

You sound exactly like someone who had troubles and then started trying to solve them with psychology, NLP, and hypnosis. There are several such people that I know and love dearly, so what you wrote sounds VERY familiar to me. I am happy to hear a story of someone finding something exciting and hopeful in their lives.

I am less thrilled with your apparent desire to wake everyone else out of their slumber, if I may be so bold as to interpret what you said in that way, but that, too, is very familiar.

All the people I know who talk like that are xNFx of some kind, so you certainly sound like a proud ENFJ to me. Anyway, good for you for finding something that works for you.

So, what the hell do I want from you? I want to put across two points, for your consideration and further discussion:

1. Realizing you are an INTP is not directly helpful to who you are and who you want to be, it's only a useful info, some readout you get, that you could use to direct yourself towards what's the next step is.

Sure it is helpful. It isn't a solution to anything, nor does it define identity, but it is very useful for understanding point of view. For example, INTPs prefer to base their actions on logic more than on authority or tradition. When surrounded by authoritarian traditionalists who tell you there is something wrong with reason, it is nice to know that there are others like you out there, and that it is okay to be the way you are. (I have actually had people argue to my face that there was something wrong with using reason.)

2. Change is possible, oh yes... during our childhood and early youth, we kept learning and changing, at that early age we were more susceptible to effect by our parents and environment, you probably never had a conscious choice about learning many things that make you who you are today, I mean who in their right mind would want shampoo phobia or something?
The bad news is that at a certain point, you chose to stop learning and changing and accept who you were at that exact moment, most likely it wasn't a conscious choice again but more of an automatic thing, perhaps it's what people call "growing up"..

Well, actually no, your bad news is not true. INTPs never stop learning and changing. I mean, I know INTPs in their 70s who still experience the world with a sense of wonder, and the same with INTJs. Maybe some people choose to stop learning and changing, but not us.

As for accepting who you are, yes, that is growing up. It doesn't mean you stop learning and changing, but you do find a way to accept and value yourself. I wouldn't call it bad news, though.

Anyway, it sounds like you are having fun with your current growth, and I wish you well on your journey. Maybe you can keep us posted on things you discover about yourself.

 

[Enne]

Why the (general) assumption that you can't be a 'real' INTP and not somehow be broken or flawed?

 

[Adymus]

Wonderful, another Ex-INTP who has made his triumphant return from the shackles of INTPhood so he can Shepard all of us poor saps into the promised land of INFJness.


Okay, here is the thing, you were never an INTP, you were an INFJ who was out of touch with their Fe. This kind of thing happens all of the time, there are even plenty of INTPs on this forum that are a bit out of touch with their auxiliary function too, it is normal to grow out of this. So with Ni and Ti taking the foreground, you appeared to be withdrawn, logical, and out of touch with society. The MBTI reads this and marks you down as an INTP, even though you are not.

So you eventually developed your Fe and you discovered you have wonderful talents in articulation, understanding people, and directing people, so now you are left with the inclination that you started out as an INTP, and gained a bunch of powers that INFJ just happen to have. I call this Bluesquid syndrome.

Look, your type does not change, but it does develop. Developing your personality does not actually change it, because the path to development was a part of that specific type. The path to development that occurs depends on your Cognitive functions, and they will not necessarily develop in their hierarchical order, such as in your case. Your Cognitive function will grow from experience and actually using them, much like exercising a muscle. So as soon as you started to embrace your social side, your Fe came back into balance and you discovered a part of yourself that was always there, but you never knew about.

My life made a huge turn around also when I finally got in touch with my Ne, but I wasn't into MBTI back than anyway so I never fell into the pit fall of thinking my type actually changed.

 

[Dormouse]

Another Redshirt? (What does that mean, anyways?)

Thank you for your concern, but I needn't be schooled on what I'm supposed to be. INTPs are just as capable of developping their auxiliary functions as any other type. There's nothing limiting any of us.

 

[Salwan]

You are of course assuming that everyone takes the definition of the INTP class to be the be all and end all of who they are. Pretty silly assumption if you ask me. :P

Nobody on the planet is 100% INTP and nobody will be. Everyone is a mixture of all the 16 defined classes and we fluctuate daily. People who disagree with this are in denial and perhaps they do take the whole class assigning a little too seriously. In which case, this thread if for them and I shall leave you to 'convert' them. ^^

It's been attempted several times before however and it never really got anywhere.

Gambatte!

Hawkeye, I agree!

Essentially I wanted to say what I wanted someone to tell me the moment I decided to walk into this community, may be it would have taken me less than 6 months to arrive at where I am now. I think I was one of them denial apples, I wore the INTP dress with a big smile and started running around telling everyone about it, INTPs do smile occasionally... right?
Good thing I didn't take a very long time to snap out and get back on the road.

Conversion is a dangerous word, it doesn't sound safe, most people like to stay where they are because it's safer that way, instead, what I may be trying to do is push some people here forwards, to give them a hint about the idea that there is something more to it, something much bigger and broader than personality types, and since they are already got here at the "I'm INTP and I don't change", why not go one extra mile?
NLP alone could completely turn ones life around.

Oh and I am not trying to generalize at all, I know there are amazing INTP type people here who found the good side of it and built upon it.

May be I'm just trying to get this out of my chest, even though I didn't spare anyone whether enemy or friend from my brand new psycho-propaganda.

 

[Anthile]

You have clearly no idea what you are talking about. You have not the slightest clue about MBTI or psychology in general. This thread is absolutely unscientific. In this, you deliberately wasted the time of everybody who clicked on this thread in prospect to read something interesting.


Oh, and Adymus is wrong too.

 

[Adymus]

Oh, and Adymus is wrong too.

No I'm not.

 

[Salwan]

Hi!

You sound exactly like someone who had troubles and then started trying to solve them with psychology, NLP, and hypnosis. There are several such people that I know and love dearly, so what you wrote sounds VERY familiar to me. I am happy to hear a story of someone finding something exciting and hopeful in their lives.

I am less thrilled with your apparent desire to wake everyone else out of their slumber, if I may be so bold as to interpret what you said in that way, but that, too, is very familiar.

All the people I know who talk like that are xNFx of some kind, so you certainly sound like a proud ENFJ to me. Anyway, good for you for finding something that works for you.




Sure it is helpful. It isn't a solution to anything, nor does it define identity, but it is very useful for understanding point of view. For example, INTPs prefer to base their actions on logic more than on authority or tradition. When surrounded by authoritarian traditionalists who tell you there is something wrong with reason, it is nice to know that there are others like you out there, and that it is okay to be the way you are. (I have actually had people argue to my face that there was something wrong with using reason.)



Well, actually no, your bad news is not true. INTPs never stop learning and changing. I mean, I know INTPs in their 70s who still experience the world with a sense of wonder, and the same with INTJs. Maybe some people choose to stop learning and changing, but not us.

As for accepting who you are, yes, that is growing up. It doesn't mean you stop learning and changing, but you do find a way to accept and value yourself. I wouldn't call it bad news, though.

Anyway, it sounds like you are having fun with your current growth, and I wish you well on your journey. Maybe you can keep us posted on things you discover about yourself.

Thanks for the kind words.
Well, you may have noticed I didn't say only INTPs stopped changing and learning, actually if anyone would discover that they could re-initiate changing and learning it would likely be an INTP, due to a certain analytical skill that we enjoy, but I noticed this halt of psychological advancement in the human society as a whole, in the people around me, my father for example, he was brought up in a harsh environment and even though things turned around completely for the better in his early 20s, he is still to this day the harsh person he always was, some sort of a closed box that no one seems to be able to open or make sense of, I sometimes joke about it and say that the last new thing my father tried was around his 18s, now that I think of it, it probably isn't far from the truth.. I'm sure you guys can relate to similar personal stories taken from the people around you too.

From what I see now, the way people look at the world and the way they function depend on their map of it, the map is never the actual reality and everyone's map is unique, it is molded and formed in their youth, the most important part of their map are their belief system, if someone believes she is ugly in her 15s, she will probably still hold that belief in her 30s even if it isn't true and it never was, and most of the times the belief is buried deep within her subconscious causing issues indirectly, but if she did something about it in the past, it may be a major change and will definitely make her a better person today.

 

[Dormouse]

Hmm, I suppose it is true that your belief system can change, but this doesn't truly equate a complete metamorphosis in personality. You might seem like a completely different person: Your outlook may have changed drastically, but you will still collect and process information using the same methodology.

According to something I heard once, your value system is pretty much cemented in your consciousness by a certain age... Early twenties I think. After that it takes a significant emotional event (or some such thing) to change your ways. Apparently one of these can be triggered by enough self-analysis... Anyways, this may be roughly equivalent to what you have experienced.

 

[Salwan]

Okay, here is the thing, you were never an INTP, you were an INFJ who was out of touch with their Fe. This kind of thing happens all of the time, there are even plenty of INTPs on this forum that are a bit out of touch with their auxiliary function too, it is normal to grow out of this. So with Ni and Ti taking the foreground, you appeared to be withdrawn, logical, and out of touch with society. The MBTI reads this and marks you down as an INTP, even though you are not.

Well, if you have doubts about my past personality type, I think my previous posts (the ones before I started this thread) even though few and far apart, will show you I was no different than the ideal INTP in opinions.

I find it interesting that you still assume I'm introverted, even though the test gave me an E, what drives you to that conclusion?

Look, your type does not change

I disagree, that's a limiting belief right there, this belief makes it sound like we are stamped with our type once we arrive to life and we can never change it, what if we actually can? why is that so hard to accept?

but it does develop. Developing your personality does not actually change it, because the path to development was a part of that specific type. The path to development that occurs depends on your Cognitive functions, and they will not necessarily develop in their hierarchical order, such as in your case. Your Cognitive function will grow from experience and actually using them, much like exercising a muscle. So as soon as you started to embrace your social side, your Fe came back into balance and you discovered a part of yourself that was always there, but you never knew about.

Experience is indeed the key to change, I think for example that we all are social but as long as we think it limits us/hurts us in anyway, we never really try it and thus never have experience with it.

My life made a huge turn around also when I finally got in touch with my Ne, but I wasn't into MBTI back than anyway so I never fell into the pit fall of thinking my type actually changed.

The belief you can't change is limiting, however the belief that Ne is a huge step forward is powerful.

 

[Trebuchet]

Well, obviously a personality type can change. I mean, Phineas Gage's type clearly did. Now, to be sure, Gage had a large iron rod through his brain. I knew a guy who was completely different after a bad motorcycle accident, and another who was slightly different after the removal of a brain tumor. So trauma can clearly make permanent, enormous changes in a personality type. (Disclaimer: this is not an attempt to diagnose, treat, cure, or advocate trauma. )

I have long suspected that if a person was sufficiently abused or threatened, made outcast, or in some other way suffered psychological harm because their personality type didn't fit their society's expectations, they would find some way to survive. Given the brain's amazing ability to adapt, that might cause a real change too.

And if someone's personality type didn't change, but they decided they were someone else, truly believed that they had a new set of desires, interests, and strengths, after enough time of really believing it, wouldn't they end up being that? What is the difference between going to a lot of parties because you think you love parties, and going to a lot of parties because you really do love parties?

I'm not claiming any of these circumstances are common, of course. And I must admit that all but the trauma are speculation, based on things I've read about psychology and the brain in layman-level literature. But an absolute statement like "Your type does not change" just cries out for examination.

 

[Salwan]

You have clearly no idea what you are talking about. You have not the slightest clue about MBTI or psychology in general. This thread is absolutely unscientific. In this, you deliberately wasted the time of everybody who clicked on this thread in prospect to read something interesting.


Oh, and Adymus is wrong too.

Clearly to who?
There is a reason why I chose to place this thread in INTP section rather than Psychology.
I am still in my quest for change and I still have so many psychology books to read, I'll probably change personality type and even beliefs several times more until I finally stabilize myself in a year from now or something.
Clearly I'm not trying to present this like it's a scientific discussion or trying to make it sound like a thesis, it is simply what I'm going through, I am discussing the same issues with most of my friends on a daily basis.

Also, it's not how many things you know, it's how many things you actually put to use, you know what's interesting too? you actually got annoyed! I don't know why but perhaps because you are getting mixed signals or perhaps incompatible predicates and manner of speech from me, and you don't like that, do you?
Just don't take things seriously, It's fun to step on people's feet every once in a while.

 

[Adymus]

Well, if you have doubts about my past personality type, I think my previous posts (the ones before I started this thread) even though few and far apart, will show you I was no different than the ideal INTP in opinions.

That doesn't matter, if those opinions where formed by Ni-Fe, and not Ti-Ne then you are an INFJ, not an INTP.

I find it interesting that you still assume I'm introverted, even though the test gave me an E, what drives you to that conclusion?

I'm glad you asked! First and foremost, the test means nothing. There is no device on this planet that can accurately quantify the psyche. You came out an extrovert because you think you are an extrovert, not because you actually are one.
Because of the fact that you think you can just change your type, I considered it was pretty likely that you have a misconception of what it means to be an Extrovert. Extroversion has nothing to do with social competence, or not being shy, or not being able to articulate yourself for that matter. Being an introvert just mean you get your energy from the external world, and not the internal world. INFJs are known for being very social, and articulating their thoughts with ease once they develop their Fe well enough, and are mistaken for extroverts more than any other type, simply because they can talk a lot.

I disagree, that's a limiting belief right there, this belief makes it sound like we are stamped with our type once we arrive to life and we can never change it, what if we actually can? why is that so hard to accept?

I'm afraid we are stamped with our personality type once we arrive into life and can never change it. But let me reiterate something, that is not the same thing as being unable to develop your personality. An INTP can develop their Fe, and Si to become more sociable, articulate, and structured, but they will always be drained by this. Plus an INTP who develops their Fe will not be an ENFJ, because an ENFJ uses their functions at completely different priority levels, not to mentioned they are actually stimulated by their Fe, unlike us. I am stimulated by using my Ti with my Ne, that is what makes me an INTP, it has nothing do how good at talking to people I am.
The fact that you think being an INTP is some sort of mental disorder that we all need to be cured of tells me you where never an INTP to begin with. Your personality type is your heroes journey so to speak, and any healthy personality would see it as their strength, and not some original sin that needs to be cleansed.

Experience is indeed the key to change, I think for example that we all are social but as long as we think it limits us/hurts us in anyway, we never really try it and thus never have experience with it.

Yup, I can't disagree with that.

The belief you can't change is limiting, however the belief that Ne is a huge step forward is powerful.

The belief that you can't change is indeed limiting, but the belief that you can turn other people into what you are is dangerous and just plain wrong.

 

[Salwan]

Hmm, I suppose it is true that your belief system can change, but this doesn't truly equate a complete metamorphosis in personality. You might seem like a completely different person: Your outlook may have changed drastically, but you will still collect and process information using the same methodology.

According to something I heard once, your value system is pretty much cemented in your consciousness by a certain age... Early twenties I think. After that it takes a significant emotional event (or some such thing) to change your ways. Apparently one of these can be triggered by enough self-analysis... Anyways, this may be roughly equivalent to what you have experienced.

This isn't easy, at least for me, beliefs have a way of creeping back when you're not looking, it kinda feels like I'm sweeping leafs (beliefs) and the wind just keep blowing them back, but I'm advancing ever so slightly every time towards my goals.

...
I have long suspected that if a person was sufficiently abused or threatened, made outcast, or in some other way suffered psychological harm because their personality type didn't fit their society's expectations, they would find some way to survive. Given the brain's amazing ability to adapt, that might cause a real change too.

And if someone's personality type didn't change, but they decided they were someone else, truly believed that they had a new set of desires, interests, and strengths, after enough time of really believing it, wouldn't they end up being that? What is the difference between going to a lot of parties because you think you love parties, and going to a lot of parties because you really do love parties?
...

It's interesting you both point to a significant emotional event, I had something like that, and it's what made me feel like I'm losing my mind, I was deeply shocked when I got into the community of attraction, I realized so many things that I believed wrong in the past about relationships and not just romantic ones but all my relationships, it's like a tape started in my head viewing every single significant social situation and romantic situation I had experienced before, and analyze the hell out of it to understand everything, what I did wrong and what I did right, turns out I've been doing everything wrong, exactly the opposite of what I should do, and yes, I realized why and how I lost the only girl I loved... regardless of who you are, if that much goes into your head in just a few days, you would change drastically.

Since then, I'm analyzing everything and everyone, myself, my friends, my family, you, the people who I see in the streets or sitting in a restaurant, I'm so hungry for more I don't even get enough daily sleep.

Yes, I think a trauma started it all, a positive trauma if there is such a thing.

 

[Trebuchet]

Yes, I think a trauma started it all, a positive trauma if there is such a thing.

I suppose if more good comes out of a trauma than bad, then it could be considered a positive trauma. Why not?

 

[Salwan]

That doesn't matter, if those opinions where formed by Ni-Fe, and not Ti-Ne then you are an INFJ, not an INTP.


I'm glad you asked! First and foremost, the test means nothing. There is no device on this planet that can accurately quantify the psyche. You came out an extrovert because you think you are an extrovert, not because you actually are one.

You say there is no device on this planet that can accurately quantify the psyche, but you try it anyway, I see that as a slight contradiction.
In anyway, I don't really care anymore what type the test says I am or what type am I actually tagged with, I don't put any weight on that, and it's why I called this thread "Beyond INTP". (perhaps it would have been clearer to call it "Beyond typology")

Regarding extroversion, what if the way to be an extrovert is to think you are an extrovert and act according to that long enough until you actually become an extrovert?
It's kinda like driving a car, at first you force yourself and you can't do it correctly, your conscious struggles with the steering, gear shifting, which paddle does what, and all the other things you need to take into account, with enough practice, you will move this skill gradually to your subconscious until you can drive perfectly well and even more, enjoy music on the way, have a conversation with someone, or admire that hot chick jogging along the street... just be brief with the "admiring".
This is actually a very important principle in NLP, the principle behind learning, it states that to really learn something.. anything, you need to go through four stages: Unconscious Incompetence, Conscious Incompetence, Conscious Competence, and lastly Unconscious Competence. (here is a brief article about the subject for more info)

Because of the fact that you think you can just change your type, I considered it was pretty likely that you have a misconception of what it means to be an Extrovert. Extroversion has nothing to do with social competence, or not being shy, or not being able to articulate yourself for that matter. Being an introvert just mean you get your energy from the external world, and not the internal world. INFJs are known for being very social, and articulating their thoughts with ease once they develop their Fe well enough, and are mistaken for extroverts more than any other type, simply because they can talk a lot.

Well, you may be right about my misconception, but as I mentioned I don't care about typology anymore, instead I take someone I know, may be a leader (Obama anyone?) or a friend who is very social, I take them as an inspiration and study what they do, compare with who I am currently, then I can identify shortcomings to eradicate in me and resources that I need to establish to become as social as they are, it is a lot of work and requires dedication, and it's possible.

The fact that you think being an INTP is some sort of mental disorder that we all need to be cured of tells me you where never an INTP to begin with. Your personality type is your heroes journey so to speak, and any healthy personality would see it as their strength, and not some original sin that needs to be cleansed.

I don't think that, but I think the belief that we can't change how we interact with the world around us.. is what needs to be cured, I am still very analytical, logical, and very independent internally, but if I go out and find myself in a social setting, I can switch my focus to external, have you ever been in a party or a fun picnic and you sat down somewhere thinking about the meaning of life or that math puzzle you've been trying to solve for days while your friends had all the fun? I've been there many times, the question is why do we remember the toughest of our dilemmas at that moment in particular? for me, I think it was because of social fear that resulted from believing I was not social and I can never be, now THAT'S a limiting belief.

The belief that you can't change is indeed limiting, but the belief that you can turn other people into what you are is dangerous and just plain wrong.

I'm not at all trying that.
Again, I don't want to convert you, I like you just as you are now, how would I get an interesting conversation otherwise? the only thing I want to put across is that thinking in typology is limiting your growth, you are free to choose or reject that.

 

[Beat Mango]

You say typology is limiting, yet you say you are a "proud ENFJ". So beyond INTP is... ENFJ??

Realizing you are an INTP is not directly helpful to who you are and who you want to be, it's only a useful info, some readout you get, that you could use to direct yourself towards what's the next step is.

I certainly agree with this though.

 

[Salwan]

You say typology is limiting, yet you say you are a "proud ENFJ". So beyond INTP is... ENFJ??

Well I might have exaggerated a little with the "proud" part.
It's just that I wanted to use predicates that all people here understand to describe the change, that's a thing NLP teaches, still learning...

 

[Adymus]

You say there is no device on this planet that can accurately quantify the psyche, but you try it anyway, I see that as a slight contradiction.
In anyway, I don't really care anymore what type the test says I am or what type am I actually tagged with, I don't put any weight on that, and it's why I called this thread "Beyond INTP". (perhaps it would have been clearer to call it "Beyond typology")

For one, I'm not a device, I'm a person who has the ability to understand the mind and not just look at numbers. Secondly I am not trying to quantize the psyche, I am trying to understand it, there is a huge difference.

Regarding extroversion, what if the way to be an extrovert is to think you are an extrovert and act according to that long enough until you actually become an extrovert?
It's kinda like driving a car, at first you force yourself and you can't do it correctly, your conscious struggles with the steering, gear shifting, which paddle does what, and all the other things you need to take into account, with enough practice, you will move this skill gradually to your subconscious until you can drive perfectly well and even more, enjoy music on the way, have a conversation with someone, or admire that hot chick jogging along the street... just be brief with the "admiring".
This is actually a very important principle in NLP, the principle behind learning, it states that to really learn something.. anything, you need to go through four stages: Unconscious Incompetence, Conscious Incompetence, Conscious Competence, and lastly Unconscious Competence. (here is a brief article about the subject for more info)

Because thinking you are an extrovert will not turn you into an extrovert.
If you hypothesis was true, then my ENFP friend who thought she was an introvert her entire life would be an introvert. My INFJ friend who though she was an ENTP would actually be an ENTP, not an INFJ. Go surf the forums and youtube, and you will see all kinds of stories of people who used to think they were a certain type but then turned out to be something else. Your personality is a biological phenomenon, it is not just up to you to decide how you are wired. By all means you can try to think you are another type but that won't change it.

Well, you may be right about my misconception, but as I mentioned I don't care about typology anymore, instead I take someone I know, may be a leader (Obama anyone?) or a friend who is very social, I take them as an inspiration and study what they do, compare with who I am currently, then I can identify shortcomings to eradicate in me and resources that I need to establish to become as social as they are, it is a lot of work and requires dedication, and it's possible.

Tacit learning! That is actually a great idea, and I would recommend this as well. The only thing is, it is best applied to other people of your own personality type, or of a similar personality type. For instance you stated Obama who is an ENFJ, that actually works out very well since an ENFJ uses the same functions as an INFJ in a very similar way, so you can pic up some of their tricks and use them in a similar way. Likewise, an INTP could observe another INTP who really knows how to rock their functions and pic up some of their tricks, or they could observe and ENTP or ISTP who uses a similar configuration and pic up some of their own. The reason that I say you should be scalping the moves of similar types only is because these are the type who will be using the functions on the same terms or similar terms as yourself. See, I could really learn anything from an ENFJ, because the ENFJ is not only being stimulated by Fe, but they are using an amount of it that would overwhelm me anyway, not to mention they are getting their information for their Ni. I have to use a completely different tactic to conserve and summon my energy so I can't really use the same tactic as an ENFJ.

I don't think that, but I think the belief that we can't change how we interact with the world around us.. is what needs to be cured, I am still very analytical, logical, and very independent internally, but if I go out and find myself in a social setting, I can switch my focus to external, have you ever been in a party or a fun picnic and you sat down somewhere thinking about the meaning of life or that math puzzle you've been trying to solve for days while your friends had all the fun? I've been there many times, the question is why do we remember the toughest of our dilemmas at that moment in particular? for me, I think it was because of social fear that resulted from believing I was not social and I can never be, now THAT'S a limiting belief.

I never said we can't change how we interact with the world around us. Again, there is a difference between changing your personality, and developing your personality. In the case of the former, there would be a complete change is biological wiring, while in the former, the wiring is the same, but the cognitive functions are expanded, stronger, and better utilized. Hmmm, I think the misunderstanding we are having is coming from the models we are looking at. You are referring to basic MBTI, while the model that I use is far more refined and advanced, I seriously think if you could see the model that I am using you wouldn't consider it limiting at all.

I'm not at all trying that.
Again, I don't want to convert you, I like you just as you are now, how would I get an interesting conversation otherwise? the only thing I want to put across is that thinking in typology is limiting your growth, you are free to choose or reject that.

I think out outlooks are not that different at all, I also think thinking in typology at it's current state of understanding is limiting one's growth. But on the other hand, knowing your type is crucial to your growth. Unfortunately MBTI does not bother informing people of what happens when they develop their functions, or how to do it for that matter. So people read descriptions of how an INTP is supposed to act, and then they think that is all there is to them. Then at some point they will see an INTP who has well developed Si or Fe and think that they are an INTJ or ENTP, because they are unaware of the fact that all personalities can expand their abilities. However, if you do have a strong understanding of what functions you have, and how you can develop them you can follow a path to optimizing your functions. It is unnecessary to think you are another type when your current type has the abilities that you seek, you just have to develop them.

 

[Salwan]

For one, I'm not a device, I'm a person who has the ability to understand the mind and not just look at numbers. Secondly I am not trying to quantize the psyche, I am trying to understand it, there is a huge difference.

Then our goals are similar.

Because thinking you are an extrovert will not turn you into an extrovert.
If you hypothesis was true, then my ENFP friend who thought she was an introvert her entire life would be an introvert. My INFJ friend who though she was an ENTP would actually be an ENTP, not an INFJ. Go surf the forums and youtube, and you will see all kinds of stories of people who used to think they were a certain type but then turned out to be something else. Your personality is a biological phenomenon, it is not just up to you to decide how you are wired. By all means you can try to think you are another type but that won't change it.

MBTI is a classification test, I fail to see what's biological about it, if it was really biological and not the effect of childhood and past experience (as I believe now), then children should inherit their parents, does that actually happen? I didn't see it in my family.
And even if it does to a point, it might be due to constant exposure to the parents. And children tend to do what their parents do.

That phrase, "it is not just up to you to decide how you are wired", I don't want to take it to the letter or out of context, but are you familiar with the principle of anchors/associations? it's possible to actually strengthen or weaken neuro-links, what we do and our habits and behavior come from those neuro-links, and there are many effective ways to modify them, that's how a psychologist can cure phobias for example, phobias are usually caused by constant negative reinforcement that was strengthened continuously along the lifetime of the patient, break the neuro-links that lead to it, and you practically kill it.
Great, now I sound like a shrink.

Tacit learning! That is actually a great idea, and I would recommend this as well. The only thing is, it is best applied to other people of your own personality type, or of a similar personality type. For instance you stated Obama who is an ENFJ, that actually works out very well since an ENFJ uses the same functions as an INFJ in a very similar way, so you can pic up some of their tricks and use them in a similar way. Likewise, an INTP could observe another INTP who really knows how to rock their functions and pic up some of their tricks, or they could observe and ENTP or ISTP who uses a similar configuration and pic up some of their own. The reason that I say you should be scalping the moves of similar types only is because these are the type who will be using the functions on the same terms or similar terms as yourself. See, I could really learn anything from an ENFJ, because the ENFJ is not only being stimulated by Fe, but they are using an amount of it that would overwhelm me anyway, not to mention they are getting their information for their Ni. I have to use a completely different tactic to conserve and summon my energy so I can't really use the same tactic as an ENFJ.

I never said we can't change how we interact with the world around us. Again, there is a difference between changing your personality, and developing your personality. In the case of the former, there would be a complete change is biological wiring, while in the former, the wiring is the same, but the cognitive functions are expanded, stronger, and better utilized. Hmmm, I think the misunderstanding we are having is coming from the models we are looking at. You are referring to basic MBTI, while the model that I use is far more refined and advanced, I seriously think if you could see the model that I am using you wouldn't consider it limiting at all.

Like you guessed, I haven't actually went in depth into MBTI and it's basis, you have a point here, my model is indeed the basic MBTI.

Regarding learning, I differ with you in that I believe one can learn a lot from anyone regardless of whether their personality type is compatible or not, I'd rather ignore personality type altogether because there is much wider richness and beauty to people than four letters can summarize.

I think out outlooks are not that different at all, I also think thinking in typology at it's current state of understanding is limiting one's growth. But on the other hand, knowing your type is crucial to your growth. Unfortunately MBTI does not bother informing people of what happens when they develop their functions, or how to do it for that matter. So people read descriptions of how an INTP is supposed to act, and then they think that is all there is to them. Then at some point they will see an INTP who has well developed Si or Fe and think that they are an INTJ or ENTP, because they are unaware of the fact that all personalities can expand their abilities. However, if you do have a strong understanding of what functions you have, and how you can develop them you can follow a path to optimizing your functions. It is unnecessary to think you are another type when your current type has the abilities that you seek, you just have to develop them.

I didn't actually dismiss MBTI as a useful info, I did say it's great as a lead to what the next step in one's journey should be, but I guess my take on MBTI is that it's just an info, there isn't much of a practical side to it, no techniques or tools to help you, unlike actual psychological techniques where you can find steps and explanations about what goes inside you and inside people around you, how it all interacts and integrates.
Someone should take MBTI to the next level and turn it into something that people can make use of practically, there is much to be fixed in an average person regardless of his type.

 

[Salwan]

I realized now that when I'm posting to the forums, I don't review what I wrote and rewrite parts of it a hundred times, I just write and click post! small things like these are very strong proof to me that the change I am going through is real, as real as it gets.

If only people realize the power of beliefs, you know those people who love zodiac readings? (mostly women) you know what? it works! yeah you heard me right.
It works only because they believe it does, they will make it true subconsciously.
...
The mind works in mysterious ways...

Homer may actually become the next Obama (or Bush to be more realistic) if he believed he will...

Time to go out and practice

 

[Adymus]

MBTI is a classification test, I fail to see what's biological about it, if it was really biological and not the effect of childhood and past experience (as I believe now), then children should inherit their parents, does that actually happen? I didn't see it in my family.
And even if it does to a point, it might be due to constant exposure to the parents. And children tend to do what their parents do.

The MBTI itself is a classification instrument. But the pattern that MBTI is trying to guess at is a biologically occurring pattern. This is a pretty cutting edge concept, only Lenore Thomson has come to this conclusion, and Pod'lair (The model that I and a few other colleagues of mine are in the process of developing) expands on this. You can actually observe physical changes in a person's appearance and mannerisms when using certain cognitive functions. Muscles in a person's face actually move differently depending on if they are using Fi, Fe, Te, or Ti. You can actually see people becoming energized when using their dominant and auxiliary functions, and drained when using their offside functions.
About genetics... I can't say anything on this for certain, although I do suspect that there is a pattern to what functions you inherit. I just see to many patterns in this to think that it is all just random. For example, me my brother and my dad are all configurations of the same four cognitive functions (They are both ENTP and I am an INTP) My Maternal Grandmother was an INFJ, my mother is an ENFJ, and her granddaughter is an INFJ, again all configurations of the exact same four functions in almost the same order. I see the same or similar occurrences in all many other families too.

That phrase, "it is not just up to you to decide how you are wired", I don't want to take it to the letter or out of context, but are you familiar with the principle of anchors/associations? it's possible to actually strengthen or weaken neuro-links, what we do and our habits and behavior come from those neuro-links, and there are many effective ways to modify them, that's how a psychologist can cure phobias for example, phobias are usually caused by constant negative reinforcement that was strengthened continuously along the lifetime of the patient, break the neuro-links that lead to it, and you practically kill it.
Great, now I sound like a shrink.

I don't know anything about anchors/associations, or NLP, so I can really comment. Although based on what you are saying, it doesn't sound like Neuro-links are the same kind of biological wiring I am referring to. You are not born with a phombia, they developed based on experiences. I am suggesting that your personality type is something you are born with, and you don't learn it.

Like you guessed, I haven't actually went in depth into MBTI and it's basis, you have a point here, my model is indeed the basic MBTI.

Regarding learning, I differ with you in that I believe one can learn a lot from anyone regardless of whether their personality type is compatible or not, I'd rather ignore personality type altogether because there is much wider richness and beauty to people than four letters can summarize.

To each his own I guess, but I'm using a model that the world still has yet to be introduced to that can be far more useful in understanding yourself and other people than what MBTI can offer.

I didn't actually dismiss MBTI as a useful info, I did say it's great as a lead to what the next step in one's journey should be, but I guess my take on MBTI is that it's just an info, there isn't much of a practical side to it, no techniques or tools to help you, unlike actual psychological techniques where you can find steps and explanations about what goes inside you and inside people around you, how it all interacts and integrates.
Someone should take MBTI to the next level and turn it into something that people can make use of practically, there is much to be fixed in an average person regardless of his type.

Meh, the practical side of MBTI is pretty vague, so I agree with you on that.
But this is exactly why I have been working to expand past the model of MBTI to something that can actually help you develop yourself, help develop others, and overall learn how to peak your personality.

 

[Lyra]

The essence.

 

[walfin]

To the OP - I/E in the MBTI does not correspond exactly to the usual definition of introvert/extrovert.

1. I understand that the definitions of useful and helpful don't match exactly, but in this case you contradict yourself.

2. Not always. Consider psychological disorders. Some things are just beyond the power of the will.

Anthile is German, by the way. I admire your candid admission that you've never seen the word "humbug" before.

For example, me my brother and my dad are all configurations of the same four cognitive functions (They are both ENTP and I am an INTP) My Maternal Grandmother was an INFJ, my mother is an ENFJ, and her granddaughter is an INFJ, again all configurations of the exact same four functions in almost the same order. I see the same or similar occurrences in all many other families too.

Fallacy. Anecdotal, selection bias.

If you are writing a book then I hope you have real statistical data qualified with margins of error.

The MBTI is useless and you are right? I won't say it is the be-all and end-all of personality but the empirical data tells us things. Why is it that the S-N dimension is about 70-30? Why are more women feelers and more men thinkers? Does the MBTI not offer at least a partial explanation of certain social roles (e.g. gender roles) and the behaviour of large groups of people?

Anyway, you're not the first to explore visual identification. Don't forget Socionics.

You are an INTP? You're always claiming that other people are not INTPs. You discredit the value of empirical research and you're so sure of the validity of your own theory. That is Ni vision. You could very well be an INTJ or ISTP.

 

[Adymus]

Fallacy. Anecdotal, selection bias.

If you are writing a book then I hope you have real statistical data qualified with margins of error.

The MBTI is useless and you are right? I won't say it is the be-all and end-all of personality but the empirical data tells us things. Why is it that the S-N dimension is about 70-30? Why are more women feelers and more men thinkers? Does the MBTI not offer at least a partial explanation of certain social roles (e.g. gender roles) and the behaviour of large groups of people?

Anyway, you're not the first to explore visual identification. Don't forget Socionics.

You are an INTP? You're always claiming that other people are not INTPs. You discredit the value of empirical research and you're so sure of the validity of your own theory. That is Ni vision. You could very well be an INTJ or ISTP.

Wow.

Did you not see me start that paragraph with "I can't say anything on this for certain, although I do suspect that there is a pattern to what functions you inherit"? I never said any of that was a proven fact, so great job pointing out what I already admitted.

I'd hardly call the MBTI tests empirical data. But the point is, it doesn't give enough explanation, and really just creates even more confusion, it desperately needs to be expanded.

To put it simply, Socionics is doing it wrong, and we are doing it right. VI is pretty much just: "Here is what an ENTJ looks like, now go find them!", we can actually point out how the use of every function and more looks when they are using them.

Again, the MBTI has never had real empirical research, it is always been speculative. A test that get's a person's opinion on how they think their cognitive functions work is not empirical evidence.

Ha! Yes my Si does seem an awful lot like Ni, good call, I was wondering when someone would point this out and accuse me of being an INJ. The reason it is not Ni is because my vision is not a speculative vision of how I have seen patterns connect and what they imply, it is all based on experience.
The difference between my Si and everyone else's Si is that mine has been exposed to models and research that no one else here has, so it has a very independent minded feel to it, when it is still actually just based on known facts and experience.

 

[walfin]

Did you not see me start that paragraph with "I can't say anything on this for certain, although I do suspect that there is a pattern to what functions you inherit"? I never said any of that was a proven fact, so great job pointing out what I already admitted.

You did not claim it was a proven fact. But you are allowing it to colour your judgment.

To you, it is proven. From your POV, all you need to do is to prove it to others. That is closing your mind to the possibilities.

To put it simply, Socionics is doing it wrong, and we are doing it right. VI is pretty much just: "Here is what an ENTJ looks like, now go find them!", we can actually point out how the use of every function and more looks when they are using them.

Not exactly, I don't think VI is just that.

Example of video analysis

Seems like at least some of them do functional analysis too.

Again, the MBTI has never had real empirical research, it is always been speculative. A test that get's a person's opinion on how they think their cognitive functions work is not empirical evidence.

But some of the questions test behavioural manifestations (esp. things like organisation etc.). Of course, people can lie (or give inaccurate answers) on these tests.

Ha! Yes my Si does seem an awful lot like Ni, good call, I was wondering when someone would point this out and accuse me of being an INJ.

Bloody hell, I walked into your trap.

I KEELLLLL YOU....
Ultrasonic squeak!

 

[Adymus]

You did not claim it was a proven fact. But you are allowing it to colour your judgment.

To you, it is proven. From your POV, all you need to do is to prove it to others. That is closing your mind to the possibilities.

No, if it was proven to me then I wouldn't have bothered stating that I am not certain. It's called a hypothesis, all theories start with the speculation that if X happens it will yield Y. Having a hunch that something works a certain way won't color your perception of it, especially if you are a Ti dominant (Which I am whether you can see it or not). Either way empirical evidence is the only way to be certain, I know I have no empirical evidence on the matter so I can't be certain. I am curious to know if a personality type really is genetic just as much as everyone else is.

Not exactly, I don't think VI is just that.

Example of video analysis

Seems like at least some of them do functional analysis too.

Hmm, interesting. It is pretty vague though, and they don't really go into detail on how exactly it looks and is being used.

But some of the questions test behavioural manifestations (esp. things like organisation etc.). Of course, people can lie (or give inaccurate answers) on these tests.

Lying is kind of a strong word to use in this case, the point is you can't really expect people to know themselves well enough to answer accurately.

 

[Adymus]

Is it a lack of self-knowledge or fundamental inconsistencies and capriciousness in behavior which makes these tests so flimsy?

It is a combination of:

Lack of self-knowledge (This includes your personal ideals of how you should act, as well as cultural indoctrination of how you are supposed to act, how you have been told you act, and your idea of how your abilities should be ranked.), which just can't really be helped.

The fact that a person can still be a certain type and not exact exactly like that type depending on how their functions have developed, and the MBTI instrument is not equipped to make these distinctions.

Poorly defined principles, ie: Extroversion = being talkative, and introversion = socially incompetent, etc.

 

[Vatroslav]

I destroyed my old self, and created a new one as well, and I'm doing it all the time, what to improve if not yourself?

INTP is a way to categorize an average of your overall personality. It's characteristics are not only bad, but there is A LOT of positive sides. To take positive sides, and to eliminate negative ones as much as possible.

But to switch from type to type, not taking only positive but also negative, makes no sense to me...

I personally do like the INTP personality in overall, so I don't want to change it, I want to improve it... I like being detached from people and situations, which does not mean I do not feel anything. It only means that I control my feelings, and thoughts as well, I work on emotional detachment. Giving yourself to a sexual drive but not controlling it, is as bad as denying it- bad consequences either way... (I do not know what you do, I'm talking generally)

Whatever, it is up to a persons taste to choose what type of personality they want to change to. But I think that supreme goal would be balance. Balance between all functions, introverted and extroverted, balance between thoughts and thoughts, feelings and feelings, thoughts and feelings, lead to a state where you can transform any feeling to any feeling, any thought to any thought according to situation. And you act and behave to have the best consequences. To be your own ruler means to really Live.

 

[Salwan]

I welcome thou sire walfin to this humble discussion

To the OP - I/E in the MBTI does not correspond exactly to the usual definition of introvert/extrovert.

1. I understand that the definitions of useful and helpful don't match exactly, but in this case you contradict yourself.

2. Not always. Consider psychological disorders. Some things are just beyond the power of the will.

I did confess I only explored the basic model of MBTI already, I mean how many times I have to embarrass myself here?

1. Hmmm, I ask for some flexibility here as I am not a native English speaker, but thanks for pointing that out.

2. Sure, if you're talking about disabling disorders, all psychological methods I read about depend on the sanity and agreement of the patient, I don't think I can cure someone who isn't sane or doesn't agree to or participate in the process... Actually, the patient is the one who does most of the curing, the psychiatrist only instructs and leads him.

This actually reminds me, I didn't explore lossing sanity yet, what exactly does it mean in a psychological sense? how and why it can happen?

 

[Salwan]

Hi Vatroslav, thanks for participating in the discussion.

Whatever, it is up to a persons taste to choose what type of personality they want to change to. But I think that supreme goal would be balance. Balance between all functions, introverted and extroverted, balance between thoughts and thoughts, feelings and feelings, thoughts and feelings, lead to a state where you can transform any feeling to any feeling, any thought to any thought according to situation. And you act and behave to have the best consequences. To be your own ruler means to really Live.

Well said, balance, it's my ultimate goal.