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Being INTP and being social

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#1
I find that in a lot of social situations INTP's seem to have a "kick me sign" on our back and other people will use that against us. The reason is we will never realize its there. We simply don't care. People can be cruel. Sometimes when we try to use logic and reason they simply use that against us to label us a "nerd" or use social structure which we don't care about. I am the INTP who has played on the football team, played basketball, done track, skateboarded, played in the school band, played in metal bands, taken computer programming classes and generally got along with everyone. Every once and awhile I'll find myself in a situation with a certain type of asshole who knows how to use the social system to his advantage and put everyone against me. The reason I have become cynical and unsocial is due to these people. I do not have a fear of them I just know that they are playing a game I simply cannot win because the rules were defined illogically. If you take the apathetic route it only works against you. I am not competitive in nature so those type of people really work against me. I have in a few situations completely destroyed them using my intellect and when that happens they simply use their social status as power. We will never be able to avoid this in our daily lives as this world is fucked. I mean we can all become hermits and sit in our houses on the internet, but we will be missing a lot to life. The thing about my hermit comment is I do go out to the bars/clubs in my band and mingle with people. Its always completely meaningless and boring. People are really dull and I just force myself to socialize so I get better at understanding their thought process. Girls do actually hit on me because they think I am "in a band", but they are always so boring that I lose interest fast. In fact I lose interest in the girls so fast that I avoid them. I find casual sex highly overrated. Its not bad, but its not this end all be all thing.

The thing I'd like to say is in general most people are decent human beings, but the ones who know how to use INTP against us, completely get malicious and throw dirty jabs to make themselves feel better. The problem is we need to be recognized and accepted for what we are in order for us to be successfully integrated into society. The thing I found out about social status is dopamine is released in some people's brains when they are "leading" people. Its a drug like high for them.

The other thing I want to point out to the fellow cynical INTPs is that the other types get picked on even more. The feeling type people probably get hurt worse then we do when they are picked on. I am sure the jock on the football team who gets picked on by the other dudes goes home and cries to his mom. That same jock who goes home and cries to mommy will pick on the nerds to make himself feel better. There in lies the problem. We sometimes become human punching bags.

Oh and I am not a good athlete or anything I just put myself out there and tried out. Definitely wasn't my thing. I don't feel like going back through my rant and editing it so take me as I am.
 

snafupants

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#2
gnome - "Every once and awhile I'll find myself in a situation with a certain type of asshole who knows how to use the social system to his advantage and put everyone against me. The reason I have become cynical and unsocial is due to these people."

Why not avoid situations where these people are less likely to be in attendance? You talk about playing in bars, but that seems like ground zero for these dudes. You may be exaggerating, but for that to be the sole reason you are "cynical and unsocial" seems like granting these folk too much credit and underestimating your own ability to brush these things off. It sounds trite, but that guy who ridicules diversity is going to be the same immature person when he is fifty, and slightly less happy with his situation. I know these people personally, and they don't change, so work around them. They end up bankrupt from shady business deals, caught cheating on their wives, with substance abuse problems, etc. and are not worth your time now.
 
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#3
The guys you describe seem to have no problem with me and I never get shit from them. Its the people who have like huge amounts of ego, nice car, hot wife and want to be CEO.

Oh and by the way I just went to the grocery store and when I saw society I realized I never want to integrate and I don't think I ever will. I'm not being stubborn, but when I saw the people I became ill.

Edit: Oh crap you described the one perfectly! I get along with the down to earth people who just wanna hang and get wasted. "I know these people personally, and they don't change, so work around them. They end up bankrupt from shady business deals, caught cheating on their wives, with substance abuse problems, etc. and are not worth your time now." Those ones fuck with me!
 

EyeSeeCold

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#4
Yes it's called insecurity. The concerned moms were right all along about bullies.

These people that make fun of others need positive attention, that's what the jokes are supposed to bring about. If you are made fun of, that means they need you.

INTPs, I find don't really give a damn about society and so we are subject to these damaged people, the problem is that we are damaged ourselves. You just have to keep trucking on til you find people that truly care in your own special way.
 
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#5
Why not avoid situations where these people are less likely to be in attendance? You talk about playing in bars, but that seems like ground zero for these dudes. You may be exaggerating, but for that to be the sole reason you are "cynical and unsocial" seems like granting these folk too much credit and underestimating your own ability to brush these things off. It sounds trite, but that guy who ridicules diversity is going to be the same immature person when he is fifty, and slightly less happy with his situation. I know these people personally, and they don't change, so work around them. They end up bankrupt from shady business deals, caught cheating on their wives, with substance abuse problems, etc. and are not worth your time now.
Have you heard about the law of inverse worth? It's like the little old lady who trips and falls dies yet the gangster who is shot 7 times lives. I find it maybe they do go farther within this system. Dunno just a thought.

The problem is when I was 20 I had a guy who was 40 pull that shit on me. The person you are describing who cheats on the wife goes bankrupt etc. He was relentlessly unmerciful on me and malicious. It was like completely sadistic. If you saw video footage of it you'd be in disbelief on how I was treated. I have the ability to brush it all off, but at the time I was only 20 and he was 40 and had A LOT of experience on putting people down. Worst part is he did it in front of my fellow peers. My peers joined in with him too! It was insanity.

Ok ok ok I totally get it now. He was making fun of me out of insecurity and he actually liked me a lot.
 
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#6
The shittttyyy thing about it is we have to absorb all of their fucking emotional problems. Its like the weight they carry on their shoulders they expect you to help with. Make sense?
 

EyeSeeCold

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#7
Ok ok ok I totally get it now. He was making fun of me out of insecurity and he actually liked me a lot.
No.. he needed you. These people are insecure and they find they aren't hurt by certain people such as yourself, which makes you an easy target to project their damaged feelings. Subconsciously they expect positive emotional affirmation, but you aren't the one to give it to them.
 
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#8
No.. he needed you. These people are insecure and they find they aren't hurt by certain people such as yourself, which makes you an easy target to project their damaged feelings. Subconsciously they expect positive emotional affirmation, but you aren't the one to give it to them.
I've had it happen two times. Both times were physical altercations. First one was a fist fight which he knew he'd win because I am not a fighter. Second one I was luckily twice the guys size and he backed down. Their damaged feelings have totally fucked my everyday life and left me feeling like crap. I have no idea how to overcome it.
 

EyeSeeCold

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#9
Beat them at their own game. Attack their feelings with personal insults in front of large crowds.

That is, if you want to play dirty...:twisteddevil:
 
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#10
Beat them at their own game. Attack their feelings with personal insults in front of large crowds.

That is, if you want to play dirty...:twisteddevil:
Well my psychiatrist says I have PTSD from it because it was a physical assault.

The first guy hit me and we were like 18. So like this kids mom came in and helped me out. And like I was like "you remind me of my mom." And she was like oh can she pick you up. I was like no she's dead. And I wasn't crying, but everyone else got emotional. The kid who punched me got on his knees and played his game and started crying and begging for forgiveness in which I didn't give. He told me his dad had died too. I told him the reason he's so angry is he never had a dad.

The second guy I told to see a psychiatrist and its going to take a lot of work to overcome his problems. I did play dirty a bit in all situations. The weird thing about the second guy was he was like "have you ever had heartbreak" and I was like "yes my mom died when I was younger and I was very sad". He started crying and acting weird. I didn't cry.

They were trying to dump weird shit on me. To this day it bugs me. I did tell them off incredibly well, but in both cases somehow I can get it out of my head. I think its because maybe they were using me to act out their problems in an incredibly unhealthy way. I feel as if I was a victim perhaps?
 
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#11
The second guy got so in my face that I was like dude should I just leave. I was 20 and he was 40. And he got RIGHT IN my face and I had a fight of flight experience. And it wasn't emotional but I just blew up because I thought I would have to fight.
 

EyeSeeCold

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#12
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#13
You finally figured it out. We are the victims.
Hell yeah dude I feel so much better being on this forum. You guys are going to be a great asset for me. The thing I have to give myself credit for is in both situations I was incredibly witty and incredibly fast with my wit. I made up insults that were right on point. Sometimes I make fun of myself just as much as others because I don't care. I just wish I wasn't physically assaulted by some nutjob. I'll get over it. It hasn't happened again because I have read the tell tale signs of when shits about to go bad. I remove myself immediately. I guess I'm over it now because I realize I am not alone.

Will we ever be able to get through to these people who try to victimize us? Like will we ever be able to outsmart them in a way that actually does get through to them?
 
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#14
You finally figured it out. We are the victims.
So what is my next step knowing this knowledge. That we are the victims. Avoid humanity? Go to college and get several degrees? I guess that's for me to decide, but it all seems mundane and boring. Completely pointless.
 

EyeSeeCold

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#15
Don't think so. What's "real" for you, may not be "real" for them. I think you'd have to go through tough times for them to really be secure with your company, which, because of them being bullies, does not give itself the chance to happen so easily.

I mean, me, I don't care, if you're nice your my friend. If you're deep, we can be good friends. My idea of friendship is not the free exchange of insults which signifies comraderie, but rather, the restriction of them.

The point? Realize when your suffering offers no benefit. Realize when you need to stand up and resist. Realize when it's time for you to be the aggressive one.
 
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#16
Don't think so. What's "real" for you, may not be "real" for them. I think you'd have to go through tough times for them to really be secure with your company, which, because of them being bullies, does not give itself the chance to happen so easily.

I mean, me, I don't care, if you're nice your my friend. If you're deep, we can be good friends. My idea of friendship is not the free exchange of insults which signifies comraderie, but rather, the restriction of them.
No of course. I understand that they are not my friends. I agree with you 100%. I just have to say I held my own on the insults. I realize I need INTP like people to befriend.
 

EyeSeeCold

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#17
^ edited the previous
 
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#18
I just feel completely and utterly fucked now that I know I am INTP. It's like I now realize people have just been using me essentially. While I don't care that to them they are using me, I realize its a waste of my time. I have had one really really good friend who was either INTP or INTJ and we had deep conversations all the time.

I realize now that real friends are far and few between for us INTP. I mean I can make acquaintances, but rarely will I have a good friend. OK I have had two really good true friends that I can think of.

Its looking like a lonely lonely life.

How did you guys cope? Go to college?
 

Stoic Beverage

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#19
If you have enough people around you (as friends, not literally), you're no longer a target. Even if the people are shallow and annoying, keep some at hand. You'll be annoyed, but you won't get any crap.
 

warryer

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#20
I don't know if playing the victim is going to get you where you want to go. It's a cop out from responsibility/understanding. "I'm the victim so I don't have to do anything." If you act like a victim that's how you will get treated.

You have a problem with people singling you out, it's because you appear weak. This affirms that you don't understand socializing. I agree that it is completely illogical but, that doesn't give you a free pass. That's part of the problem. If you don't like it you can redefine it.
 
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#21
If you have enough people around you (as friends, not literally), you're no longer a target. Even if the people are shallow and annoying, keep some at hand. You'll be annoyed, but you won't get any crap.
Oh dude I have only been the target two times. Both times it was a severely insecure guy looking to fuck with a target. All the other times I have been cool. It just seems like certain people like to fuck with INTP because we have an endless ability to take their emotional crap.

The second time oddly enough was Dino from a band called Fear Factory. I am not even making it up. I ran into him outside the venue and asked him questions about gear and shit. Standard questions for musicians. He would be like "none of your business" and I was like cool that's fine. I'd try to ask a new question and he'd insult me and I'd trade an even better insult. Finally he got in my face to fight and I'm 6' 6" so he backed down. He was in Divine Heresy at that point and wanted to go get the singer to kick my ass. I was like dude go get him he'll be on my side. He fucking backed down. It was just a weird weird night because two complete idiots were trying to help him. I held my own against all of them.

At the end of the confrontation Dino told me I reminded him of Burton C Bell. I didn't buy his bullshit. It was just weird that someone would treat someone the way he treated me. I've talked to plenty of people about gear and bands and stuff and it was never a big deal.

The venue wasn't even that big and there was probably like 40 people there.
 
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#23
I realize now that real friends are far and few between for us INTP. I mean I can make acquaintances, but rarely will I have a good friend. OK I have had two really good true friends that I can think of.
I think it is partly due too definition. If you notice people seem to have a lot of "best friends" that turn against them or aren't really that good. Now they may have more friends but some of those are what we would call acquaintances. Not saying we have the same about of friends we are introverted after all but you get the idea.


I understand almost everything you say and they do it because they know you won't fight back. (reason nobody that knows an ISTP will ever insult them[my brother is an ISTP and mostly calm but{Kaboom}) Most of the time I am just like, meh right like I care. But I have won every fight I get into. (don't get into fight often and never if I can't win)

Mostly by intimidation alone, not saying I look like the hulk I don't but I just give off the impression that I'm going to fight this one what are you going to do about it? Because I react so little people kinda back up when I am in that mood even if they are far bigger. From what you said is sounds like that band guy.
 
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#24
I think it is partly due too definition. If you notice people seem to have a lot of "best friends" that turn against them or aren't really that good. Now they may have more friends but some of those are what we would call acquaintances. Not saying we have the same about of friends we are introverted after all but you get the idea.


I understand almost everything you say and they do it because they know you won't fight back. (reason nobody that knows an ISTP will ever insult them[my brother is an ISTP and mostly calm but{Kaboom}) Most of the time I am just like, meh right like I care. But I have won every fight I get into. (don't get into fight often and never if I can't win)

Mostly by intimidation alone, not saying I look like the hulk I don't but I just give off the impression that I'm going to fight this one what are you going to do about it? Because I react so little people kinda back up when I am in that mood even if they are far bigger. From what you said is sounds like that band guy.
That behavior seems to me disconcerting. If you don't feel like talking to someone why use bullying, intimidating and mind games. Why not just not put yourself in a place where people will approach you?
 

SpaceYeti

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#25
I've usually just taken a pause and asked if they were seriously doing what they were doing. I can't claim I "won" the situation, but I was fairly popular and their attempt to do whatever he was doing didn't really have any noticeable effect on my life, so whatevs. That hasn't been since high school, though.
 

AlisaD

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#26
You seem to feel awfully sorry for yourself for no good reason, really.

So, people can be jerks. Some of them can be jerks even when they're 40. Shocking!

Being INTP is no special thing, and people don't single you out because you're one. I'd single you out because you've been sulking over this and trying to make yourself seem like a victim, but also kind of like a cool guy for about 10-15 posts in one day. It's annoying. Get a grip.
 
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#27
You seem to feel awfully sorry for yourself for no good reason, really.

So, people can be jerks. Some of them can be jerks even when they're 40. Shocking!

Being INTP is no special thing, and people don't single you out because you're one. I'd single you out because you've been sulking over this and trying to make yourself seem like a victim, but also kind of like a cool guy for about 10-15 posts in one day. It's annoying. Get a grip.
Yeah you're right.
 

GYX_Kid

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#28
Oh dude I have only been the target two times. Both times it was a severely insecure guy looking to fuck with a target. All the other times I have been cool. It just seems like certain people like to fuck with INTP because we have an endless ability to take their emotional crap.

The second time oddly enough was Dino from a band called Fear Factory. I am not even making it up. I ran into him outside the venue and asked him questions about gear and shit. Standard questions for musicians. He would be like "none of your business" and I was like cool that's fine. I'd try to ask a new question and he'd insult me and I'd trade an even better insult. Finally he got in my face to fight and I'm 6' 6" so he backed down. He was in Divine Heresy at that point and wanted to go get the singer to kick my ass. I was like dude go get him he'll be on my side. He fucking backed down. It was just a weird weird night because two complete idiots were trying to help him. I held my own against all of them.

At the end of the confrontation Dino told me I reminded him of Burton C Bell. I didn't buy his bullshit. It was just weird that someone would treat someone the way he treated me. I've talked to plenty of people about gear and bands and stuff and it was never a big deal.

The venue wasn't even that big and there was probably like 40 people there.
dino cazares got into a confrontation with you? did you open for fear factory or divine heresy?
 
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#29
dino cazares got into a confrontation with you? did you open for fear factory or divine heresy?
Yeah dude he wanted to fight me! I am like fucking 6' 6" and like huge. I'm not muscular or anything but I am just a giant. I was in a ton of bands in the scene in a city in Kansas and Divine Heresy came out to play. I went out because a friend wanted to go and I checked out all the bands etc. I wasn't opening, but I was fairly known in the scene.

I saw Dino there and I was like holy fuck I recognize him...

Anyway I saw him walk outside so I waited a few seconds then followed to see if he was just hanging out outside or what. I wanted to ask him some questions about his gear and maybe some Fear Factory stuff. Fear Factory was one of the first metal bands to get way into Pro Tools, editing, sample replacing etc so I figured I'd try my hand at talking.

I am huge into recording, guitar playing, etc so my questions were in no way amateur. They were also definitely not offensive. He started to become a REAL dick so I started making some sarcastic INTP remarks. He tried to come back at me, but every time he did I would own him. It was one of those group settings where its like 6 guys in a circle hanging out. These two lame fucking guys were totally supporting him and trying to make fun of me. Anyway I traded off insults with all of those dudes nonstop for like a good 5-10 solid real minutes. It was seriously me vs everyone. Eventually he got in my face. Literally. I am 6' 6" and he is probably literally 5' 6".

I BLEW UP dude. I don't blow up, but he violated my principles and didn't respect my competence. As you INTPs know that is disaster zone. On top of that he got up in my face like one inch from me. I BLEW UP and challenged him to throw the first punch. I was like we have witnesses go ahead and do it faggot. He was like "Do you want me to go get Tommy?" (the singer). I was like "Go ahead and go get your boyfriend you fucking faggot, you can't handle yourself." He didn't do shit. I was actually super nice about it and I didn't get violent. He knew I could beat the living fuck out of him.

It was one of those ESFJ environments. That is what I will leave it at. Those fucking ESFJ assholes know how to super manipulate people into being on their side. They love throwing everyone against you. He had several pawns to work against me and he was relentless dude. It was INTP hell. He loved it I could tell. For an ESFJ to have an INTP around and have like 2-3 pawns to join in with him is their dream. I did manage to defend myself, but it was based on logic so they didn't really even understand it. It was total mob mentality.

If you don't believe me that Dino is a severe douchebag look up "Tommy Vext" on youtube and watch his interview on his departure from that band.


Wow ESFJ's are definitely our nightmare. Every time I have met one its a disaster. Mainly because they have a template on how you should dress and behave. If you don't follow that template they try to bully you first chance they get. I don't know what personality types support them, but if they have them around it gets fucking SCARY. By scary I mean I'd rather be at the mental hospital, Friday night, doing karaoke with the down syndrome patients.


Doesn't it suck to be INTP sometimes. Like isn't it terrible that an INTP was subjected to that environment at age 20 with someone age 38 being abusive to him? Not to play the victim, but I seriously had no idea about the MBTI. I was totally naive.
 

GYX_Kid

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#30
your story sounds a little like tommy's, did you know how to handle him after watching the video? haha. from that he sounds like the type of narcissist that a guitarist in a band i was in was, though that guy was 19 years old and since started learning better. you think dino is ESFJ? really seems like these types of people, if they get a reason for their ego to be hurt daily (like being a fatass), project even more shit and frustration than they would normally. at least inside they're trapped in a void of torture and powerlessness :smiley_emoticons_mr ...wonder if he wrote those lyrics "i am hate! i am rape!"

but yeah, shit, i just got pro tools for christmas. been using cubase for about a year though am still using an amateur studio setup with mediocre sound quality

aaaaalso saw your devin townsend personality question post somewhere, it's interesting to think about. i remember reading somewhere that he went through a perspective deemed dilemma, when he felt like human beings were merely pink blobs emitting noises that they could all understand. he's awesome though.
 
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