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Been away

higs

My word is my bond.
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#1
Hello my pretties, I'm currently starting my final year of masters, restarting my social life, job searching and writing depressing short stories about feeling disconnected from the environment because of technology and stuff. I'm also writing an article on SJW culture hijacking feminism. And right now I'm about to head to the market. Voilà.

Fill me in on the gossip irl or on the forum, or just type random stuff at me. Whatver. The discord chat is mostly filled with Kuu and 420munk talking about VR all the time if anyone wants to check in there :D
 

higs

My word is my bond.
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#4
Oh cool you're still around, hello :-)

@AK: Changed type again? Excellent ^^. I think ur Ni dom but I dunno what else. I will use the mbti lingo with you even if I am pretty uncertain as to the usefulness of the concepts : How are you expanding ur Se? Dancing is an excellent one imo.
 

Rook

You know you want to
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#5
HIGGGGSSSSS

too many bloody vowels but welcome and re-ingratiate your being into collective microcosm

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::p:storks::kodama1:


*****consonants -.-
 

Grayman

Team Ignorant
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#6
The feminism thing sounds like an interesting topic. There is a lot of red pilling talk on the internet.
 

Animekitty

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#7
Oh cool you're still around, hello :-)

@AK: Changed type again? Excellent ^^. I think ur Ni dom but I dunno what else. I will use the mbti lingo with you even if I am pretty uncertain as to the usefulness of the concepts : How are you expanding ur Se? Dancing is an excellent one imo.
I have always been thinking too much (Ni).
So what I have been doing is looking and listening more.
And yes I am paying more attention to my body.
But the biggest impact comes from not thinking.
You cannot pay attention when you think all the time.

This is now what I am going by
from Michael Pierce:

Ni contemplative
Se photographic

Si recording
Ne innovative

Fi individualistic
Te induction

Ti deduction
Fe accommodating
 

higs

My word is my bond.
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#8
The feminism thing sounds like an interesting topic. There is a lot of red pilling talk on the internet.
Indeed, I just got censored and branded 'transphobic' on my facebook uni feminist group for making a poll inquiring as to whether people on the group thought gender was :
1) The product of social conditioning
2) A product of biology, physiology
3) Other (a mix of both)

Note that I did not give an answer myself, my sole wish was to see what people believed and why.Also note that Whether 1) or 2) it does not invalidate the desires or choices of a trans person. Poll deleted with a warning for myself. I swear this one mod is Umbridge from Harry Potter, I feel like scratching "I must not tell lies onto my hand" in protest.

Any debate on any topic is immediately shut down, it's absolutely unbearable and fucking stupid because it creates enemies instead of social dialogue. God forbid you present yourself as a white cis hetero male to come and discuss things, if you express an inkling of disagreement wou get shut down. I didn't believe it until I saw it with my own eyes, thought it was just some reactionary shit when people criticized so called "SJW's" but nooooo. They actively reject science and everything is a social construct and debating is bad, you just have to shut up and accept whatever the most "oppressed" person says. It's annoying because I think that gender theory is a fascinating topic that ought to be discussed, and feminism used to be a fertile terrain of philosophy where ideas where exchanged. De Beauvoir would not have put up with this whiny shit.

Thank god for INTPf which will hopefully remain this haven of non normie-ness, a great balance of non politically correct and not extremist crap either, censorship is rare here, despite the differences people have. I honestly believe this place attracts decent IQ's or at least good cognitive habits or something, whether or not MBTI is a good tool, the type descriptions with which the people on here identified themselves with originally cite a certain epistemological stance, logic, reason, fact based argumentation, system building, evidence, creativity, outside the box stuff, autonomy of thought etc...It's all a culture, and a very effective one, I have actually sharpened my stances on here and/or changed my mind based on what people said here during debates. Am I being gushy and silly ? I'll stop now. I'm Ni- Fe..Or something. Yeah. :D

@Rook hey Rooksman, thanks for de welcome :-)))))
 

Artsu Tharaz

Resident Resident
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#9
1) The product of social conditioning
2) A product of biology, physiology
3) Other (a mix of both)
I'm actually not sure. What's the "correct" answer? :confused:

Well, I guess it has to be 2), because saying it's 1) is denying the legitimacy of transgenderism
 

Animekitty

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#10
Facebook groups are the vilest places for debates. Because there is no community but simply the group leaders decide what is PC. The ability to explain your position only leads to ridicule. The speed of the debates is so fast that personal attacks drown out the subject discussed. I hate facebook and I will never go back there. (lost my password 1 year ago). The malus is so great and the number of people is too huge. I only wish I had my profile back because I added so many things to it. I wish I knew more about Facebook big data analytics.
 

higs

My word is my bond.
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#11
I'm actually not sure. What's the "correct" answer? :confused:

Well, I guess it has to be 2), because saying it's 1) is denying the legitimacy of transgenderism
ITS NOT THOUGH ! Don't waste sweat over it, they dont know themselves and will argue different things at different times. Saying gender cannot change to suit one over one's life is actually the "transphobic thing". With my warning I got told 2) is the bad one, I asked because I've seen contradicting ideas within the same people and group. So anyway. It's all silly. I'm letting it get to my head way too much.

I think one of the problems was that you can't even talk about that unless you're one of the "concerned" so because I'm not trans I can't talk about it. Never mind that everyone has a gender (or apparently lack of or whatever) so it concerns anyone. And also I will talk about what I like.

@AK yeah Facebook is horrible I agree lol
 

Animekitty

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#12
@higs

Unless it bothers you, you should remain in the group just to observe all that happens about purity test and who is most victimized and all that stuff about SJW control over others. Se how they treat people and for what stances they take, infighting is a common feature. Be a sociologist about it.

When I get my facebook back I am never joining any social groups ever. Facebook is no a forum, it is a networking platform to organize, chat and meet up. It is about connecting with friends not debating stuff.
 

Artsu Tharaz

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#13
ITS NOT THOUGH ! Don't waste sweat over it, they dont know themselves and will argue different things at different times. Saying gender cannot change to suit one over one's life is actually the "transphobic thing". With my warning I got told 2) is the bad one, I asked because I've seen contradicting ideas within the same people and group. So anyway. It's all silly. I'm letting it get to my head way too much.

I think one of the problems was that you can't even talk about that unless you're one of the "concerned" so because I'm not trans I can't talk about it. Never mind that everyone has a gender (or apparently lack of or whatever) so it concerns anyone. And also I will talk about what I like.

@AK yeah Facebook is horrible I agree lol
Could be a result of divide and conquer strategy being used by some enemy of the belief.
 

Jennywocky

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#15
my thoughts:

gender is a catch-all term and not clearly defined to start with. It ends up encompassing both social constructs as well as biological differences. It can't really be much simpler than this: We might all start from the same physical template, but our bodies (based on genetics, whether they are conventional or possess genetic alterations from natural mutation or damage or whatever) are biopurposed towards two eventual outcomes -- male or female -- in order to perpetuate the species, by the generation of various quantities of hormones. The differentiation can affect various body systems, occurs at multiple stages of life, and can be modified/derailed through shifts in hormonal makeup, and bodies can interact differently to the same level of hormones, so this is why we can get quite the spectrum of gender diversity and even things that seem outside the mean. It's a biological process, but because humanity layers a bunch of social and religious meaning on top of it to govern behavior, gender has become some kind of box instead, extremised and treated as inviolate.

The reason the world got political in part is because there's quite a number of folks who use ideas as tools to implement changes they personally want in the world, versus just being interested in the ideas. Some people do not engage on "good faith," and it's only gotten worse in the last few years depending on where you live. (There's also the "live and let live" philosophy which has been set by the wayside; people attack things they don't really grasp, let alone care about, so it becomes a battle for survival for some.)

So people view gender in a way that is supportive of the ends they wish to justify, whereas it's really just a matter of physical diversity. We might as well be bitching over hair color and nap, how people have to behave depending on their hair makeup, and whether people are allowed to change/color their hair if they're not born with it a certain way.... at least as far as the universe is concerned.
 

Rixus

I introverted think. Therefore, I am.
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#16
I think biologically, we can use minority exceptions if we want, but generally speaking humans are born with reproductive organs either on the inside or the outside. This is a biological fact, we are a 2 gender species. Human behaviour, hormonal levels and the roles of each gender, however, are completely different matters.

There are some exceptions in some smaller tribes, but generally speaking men have been domineering for a very long time. And I think this is mostly down to the sexual dimorphism of the human race - men are a bit larger and stronger than women. There are exceptions and lifestyle expectations that exaggerate this, but this is statistically quite true. And this was primarily so that men could hunt some deer or whatever and women could have babies in caves. Gender roles in this time were necessary for our survival, though I believe that the dominance of men was completely unnecessary in this deal for survival but happened because of this physical disadvantage women had in this time.

In the modern world, however, physical superiority is not our greatest survival trait and thanks to modern technology and lifestyles, those ancient gender roles that helped our ancestors survive are no longer any more necessary than having a coal fire in your living room.

Lots of conjecture exists today on the difference between our minds. One study claims that the average male brain has larger cerebral capacity than that of the average female brain, but this was not only unverified by further studies but also, nobody can even find and particular relevance of such a minor difference anyway. Some look at school results and claim girls are higher achievers than boys - an interesting point to make. Though this is true only of high schools; by college level there is no statistical difference in any grades or achievements. And even in high schools, the aptitude tests are no different. Which leads us to the conclusion that perhaps there is some societal difference at work here, or perhaps a poor methodology of teaching.

One can claim that the under representation of women in the science and technology industries is a sign of either poorer ability or sexism at play - but women are not only dominating certain middle graduate jobs nowadays (such as accountancy) but I've read studies that claim there to be no statistical difference between successful applications by men and women in the S&T industries, only a major difference in those applying for such courses in college, which will obviously lead to under representation in the industry. I believe this, too, is down to societal expectations in which careers are considered more "manly" or "womanly" to undertake. (Imagine a heterosexual man manicuring nails, or a woman on a construction site as examples). Perhaps this is partly down to the way people play with children and develop their abilities, that's something I also think is at least partly the case.

We also have the ideas that men are far more promiscuous and lack control of their sex drives (I'm not even going into why that's bullshit), and the idea that women are more emotional (especially in relationships). Again, I do not believe women are literally more emotional. I think boys are taught to "man up" and not cry, and to control their aggression as a strong man can seriously cause harm to an average woman, yet I believe girls are not. Many even teach each other how to cry in order to use emotional blackmail, but this is not considered immoral in any way. And it is now encouraged to be a "psycho chick" and basically don't bother to act in any way sane with a partner, whereas we men are expected to be perfectly stoic and rational in response. Basically, society teaches us emotional control and encourages emotional lack of control in women simply because it is our perfection of how it simply is.

The bottom line is - while these gender roles started due to a necessary symbiotic relationship, they are no longer necessary to us at all. We're slowly in the process of abandoning them as a society, but we are not there yet. It's going to be a while.
 
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#17
I don't see how it could be not physiological unless you're some kind of dualist.
 

Animekitty

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#18
What I am about to say came from other sources.

If a man is 6 feet tall and a woman is 6 feet tall, because of sexual dimorphism the male will have 10 percent more brain mass. (the video said this is equivalent to a small bar of soap).

It is held that men have better spatial skills than women. This is because of the density of connected between the parietal lobes and the frontal lobes. And because of this men are more interested in things like technology. This can sometimes lead to autistic-like behaviors because they ignore social understandings. Women Have better listening abilities and can detect infections and emotions in sounds. Men have the front to back connections, women have more connections between the hemispheres. The source of feminine intuition is excellent listening.

Usually, people follow their proclivities because of their brain. It is not that women dislike or cannot do STEM, it is that STEM is less people oriented. Often on TV when relationships are portrayed I see the girl telling the guy, "you never listen".

In sexual selection, I had an epiphany that when choosing a mate, female apes 2 million years ago chose the socially smart males. This led to an increase in intelligence over time because of monogamy. The smartest males and females got together which means that the offspring were smarter too. (Assortative Mating).

I had the opportunity once to date a girl in 2009 but my mom would not take me to the picnic the girl asked me to go to. From what I remember about her she was quite like me but also observant (like Ni eyes). I have not met anyone since then. I do not know if I will ever meet anyone like her to be together.
 

Hadoblado

The choicest fuckboi
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#19
I'd vote (3). I'm approaching an extreme moderate position, in that I always tend to think everything is both. But noticing that this is always my response doesn't stop me providing it...

I understand it's a bit sad, but these people likely deal with a lot of shit on a regular basis. When life gives you lemons, you learn to expect lemons. The world, and particularly the internet, can be an incredibly hostile place. I think it takes an exceptional person to rise above the shit the world gives them, especially on an anonymous, stranger to stranger basis.

I think a big part of the trap that is identity politics is reacting to people's reactions. If I were in their position, I would probably perceive what you were doing as step-1 in an argument. I mean, if you're writing an article on how SJWs are hijacking feminism, doesn't that imply that at some level your interest is divisive?

Anyway, the topic is really interesting and I'd be interested in hearing what you find. It's nice to hear that you think so well of the forum, in the absence of such feedback I tend to project my own jaded perceptions onto the rest of you.
 

Pyropyro

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#20
Welcome back Higs!
 

Grayman

Team Ignorant
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#21
@Rixus From age to age and society to society men have been the prime instigators of violence and agression of sexual dominination and a burning anger of power. Deny it all you want but the statistics cry out in judgement of the sins of men and their need to set the world afire!

Now lets close our hands in prayer that we may be protected by men from men that we should then thank men for their protection from their own kind.
 
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#23
I'd vote (3). I'm approaching an extreme moderate position, in that I always tend to think everything is both. But noticing that this is always my response doesn't stop me providing it...
Well, on average it will be the more correct response. Hence it's probably a good thing. Actually, more like... the least wrong response.
 

Rixus

I introverted think. Therefore, I am.
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#24
@Rixus From age to age and society to society men have been the prime instigators of violence and agression of sexual dominination and a burning anger of power. Deny it all you want but the statistics cry out in judgement of the sins of men and their need to set the world afire!

Now lets close our hands in prayer that we may be protected by men from men that we should then thank men for their protection from their own kind.
Yes, you are correct. Throughout history, men have been the perpetrators of most violence. During this time, society rewarded aggressive behaviour and called it masculine, and taught women to be timid and ladylike. There have, however, been instances where women have shown they can be just as brutally aggressive (take a look at the history of female Russian soldiers during WW2 - I've read accounts of what they did to German POW, and it sounds a lot like what happened to Theon Greyjoy).

It has always been put down to hormones - men have more testosterone and therefore are more aggressive and women have more oestrogen and therefore cry more. Personally, I disagree. I believe we are both just as capable of controlling ourselves.

But when I said that, I spoke not of the past but of the world I've witnessed spring up around us over the past few decades. Think - you see a man hit a woman outside the supermarket because she forgot her purse, and I'd wager someone would intervene or call the police, or the security guard would step in. A woman hits a man for forgetting to bring his wallet, most people would just giggle about it and say he was dumb for forgetting it. This is what the world is moving towards, not what it is moving away from. Or perhaps I live in a different world to many of you, and British women are either more aggressive than many other countries. Or perhaps this is only true locally to me, but it seems to be true enough nationally.

Women are not taught to control their emotions at all, and men are. When children, a boy would be told to stop being such a wuss for crying, a girl would be picked up and cuddled a tantrum rewarded. I don't do this in parenting and have the same rules for all my kids, but I've seen other parents do it.
 
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#25
Rixus okay so picking out your point about being taught control. What of the pitfalls or result of the way men are taught to suppress their emotions? Is there an ideal middle ground you are aiming for? If so what is it. If not, do you think that the way males are taught is optimal?
 

Rixus

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#26
No, complete emotional suppression is not a good thing. It's likely the reason why suicide rates among men are 3 times higher than women. However, there are some emotions we should control - those that cause harm to other humans, primarily. Not physically attacking people is something we can all do, much the same as not forcing ourselves upon women is something we are all capable of. Likewise, I think explaining ourselves rationally and thinking before taking action rather than relying on emotional reaction is also something that would benefit us (Take the story of Colonal Stanislay Petrov, for example, who averted nuclear war in 1983 simply thinking before acting)

Nobody suppresses all of their emotions, and unfortunately we've been taught to do it backwards. You're not allowed to express why you're feeling so discontent with your life that you wish to end it, but you can punch another guy in the face for smiling at your girl. It's messed up.

Ideally controlling our behaviour and not hurting other people is not the same as emotional suppression. I'm probably not the best one to talk about the dangers of emotional suppression - as right now mine are completely suppressed and switched off, which is something I spent years developing the ability to do. I can switch them on or off as needed, but keeping them off for too long has some serious downsides so I only do it for short periods of time.
 

Rixus

I introverted think. Therefore, I am.
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#28
The discussion was whether gender roles are the product of society or physiology. I think that the expectations of emotional control across genders contribute to these roles and are the product of social conditioning, which I think is relevant to the discussion.
 

Jennywocky

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#29
No, complete emotional suppression is not a good thing. It's likely the reason why suicide rates among men are 3 times higher than women.
Another factor is that men traditionally have used more certain methods of self-extermination... guns, cars, whatever else. Females are more liable to go for "soft deaths" (pills and so forth) that offer more potential for failure.

I do think there is a problem in the feminist arena with extremism... whether that's just the fact that a portion of the feminist crowd has become very extreme in their loudness and judgments or whether it's just being exploited by the extremists on the other end of the spectrum. I mean, it seems like a really stupid question to even have to ask whether feminism is okay. At the time it developed as a movement, women were at a disadvantage / restricted in their choices in terms of career, influence, whatever. So it made sense to focus on women. The default now should be that it's okay to be male or female as well as equal opportunities and treatment for both. Instead the argument is being deflected into yet another discrediting of feminism as a broad movement. (not that things are even necessarily equal at the moment in any particular society, but in general just there are issues from both ends that need to be addressed.)

The question should be whether the extremists have any place at the feminist table if they have progressed into active repression of another group, not whether it's okay to stand up for women equality.
 
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#32
The discussion was whether gender roles are the product of society or physiology. I think that the expectations of emotional control across genders contribute to these roles and are the product of social conditioning, which I think is relevant to the discussion.
ok i see your mistake

higs is not talking about gender roles, but actual gender identity as in which gender you personally identify as. something totally different
 

Animekitty

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#33
ok i see your mistake

higs is not talking about gender roles, but actual gender identity as in which gender you personally identify as. something totally different
In movies, I identify with the good guys.
Some people identify with the bad guys.

A gender is neither good or bad.
So why not identify with one or the other.

I made a thread about how others identify my gender on the internet as female. I said that I saw 20 episode of the little mermaid, that I was under 14 years old and that I identified with Ariel. Jenny said most boys my age would think it was an icky show because it was girly. I got no negative feelings from that show at all.

Gender identification would come from what you see as masculine and feminine about a person. I have noticed that women listen better than men do. This could be why on the spectrum on the forum I am identified as female not only because others view of my avatar but also my projection of my avatar. People choose avatars to express themselves emotionally and psychologically. It affects what they type.
 

Polaris

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#34
I just realised why the word "gender" has always been confusing to me. In Norway we don't really have a word for gender. We have a word "kjønn", which implies both sex/gender - hence, being the same thing. Which is why I never paid attention to what "gender" I feel like until other people started making some kind of deal of it. So I don't even know what I should feel like.

I just feel like "me", and that is that...whatever that is in your "gender" worlds, meh.
 
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#35
In movies, I identify with the good guys.
Some people identify with the bad guys.

A gender is neither good or bad.
So why not identify with one or the other.

I made a thread about how others identify my gender on the internet as female. I said that I saw 20 episode of the little mermaid, that I was under 14 years old and that I identified with Ariel. Jenny said most boys my age would think it was an icky show because it was girly. I got no negative feelings from that show at all.

Gender identification would come from what you see as masculine and feminine about a person. I have noticed that women listen better than men do. This could be why on the spectrum on the forum I am identified as female not only because others view of my avatar but also my projection of my avatar. People choose avatars to express themselves emotionally and psychologically. It affects what they type.
well i mean a person's internal connection to their own gender definitely is more ingrained than 'perceptions', which is fairly evident if you interact with and/or start to understand people with gender dysphoria

i think it's a bit ridiculous to suggest that a trans person is trans as a result of their perceptions, as it implies they could overcome dysphoria by changing their perceptions. juxtaposed with how people treat gays and their sexuality as a 'choice' or 'perspective' that you can somehow push people into, as opposed to an ingrained part of the person physiology/psycholgy, it's easy to see how this sort of point of view ultimately just leads at best to a poor understanding of people who're gender atypical and at worst is just harmful
 

Animekitty

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#36
well i mean a person's internal connection to their own gender definitely is more ingrained than 'perceptions', which is fairly evident if you interact with and/or start to understand people with gender dysphoria
I would think that this is both a perspective along with a body image issue. Because what it means to have the personality of a female and the body of a female would not be easily separated. What perspective should we have of the personality a male or female has. Is male/female personality just made up and all that counts is the felt body image? Can a male be more feminine in personality than a female and vise versa? The brain with gender dysphoria would have a more feminine personality or masculine personality respective to nondysphoric individuals that just happens to be opposite in personality of their gender?
 

Hadoblado

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#37
I spent a long time thinking gender identity was fkn stupid. I had the same thoughts about identifying with your sexuality, nationality, or race too. But I think that was probably stupid of me. Not that identities formed should revolve around these things, but that they just are. While I can't think of any particularly good reasons why they should be formed this way, I can see lots of little reasons that would probably add up.
 

Jennywocky

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#38
I made a thread about how others identify my gender on the internet as female. I said that I saw 20 episode of the little mermaid, that I was under 14 years old and that I identified with Ariel. Jenny said most boys my age would think it was an icky show because it was girly. I got no negative feelings from that show at all.
Well, here is what I actually said:

Yeah, see, I don't really know any guys (who identify as guys) who identify with Ariel per se. She's about as extreme female stereotypical trait as one can be.
probably best not to paraphrase me with emotionally laden language.

I find it interesting too how some people use language to "flag" their gender from the surface level. For example, I almost never use words like "icky" or "tummy" or "yummy" .... they just don't feel right to me, whatever my self-gender is... but I see people who want to be identified as strongly feminine adding such words to their conversation. Sometimes it scans as natural, sometimes it scans as very conscious. Clothing is another area where gender-proclamation comes into play, since there are extremes in both the masculine and feminine spectrums. Big bows, glitter makeup, and foofy dresses, lots of pink nowadays, polka dots, for example...there's a ton of different things.

---

Gender identification would come from what you see as masculine and feminine about a person. I have noticed that women listen better than men do. This could be why on the spectrum on the forum I am identified as female not only because others view of my avatar but also my projection of my avatar. People choose avatars to express themselves emotionally and psychologically. It affects what they type.
So I guess you are saying "gender identification" as meaning how other people identify/recognize someone else's gender?

That's not really at all related to how people identify / relate to their own gender.

Self-concept of gender typically gets anchored pretty early, whether you are het, gay, or whatever. If there is a discrepancy between how you self-perceive when young and what people are telling you you are, that can become bewildering and cause a lot of damage over time.
 

Animekitty

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#39
I did not mean to misrepresent you Jenny.
How I think is emotionally ladened to begin with.
I am sometimes not as logical or precise as I could be.
I will try and not say things that do not feel right to people when I speak of them.

edit

I think I was inquiring into self-concept when I responded to RedBaron by asking about male personality and female personality being solely determinant in the brain with relation to the body. Can you identify with having a female personality and still be comfortable in a male body or is it that you must be drawn into both requiring a female personality and a female body?
 

Jennywocky

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#40
I think I was inquiring into self-concept when I responded to RedBaron by asking about male personality and female personality being solely determinant in the brain with relation to the body. Can you identify with having a female personality and still be comfortable in a male body or is it that you must be drawn into both requiring a female personality and a female body?
I'm not even sure what a "female personality" is -- and that is where some of the social confusion is coming from, because the "cues" for genders can be muddled and mixed with actual identification with a certain gender -- it is not the same as intrinsically just having an ingrained sense of self as one or the other. People typically grow up identifying as human, and that's often what one's sense of gender is too, although some people are less attached to their gender than others.

It might seem more obvious when you've raised kids and you watch them each ping off these particular time periods of self-realization and awareness.
 

Animekitty

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#41
My self-concept has in part, over ten years, been shaped by the 5 mental breakdowns I had after high school. Each time I felt defeated. The opposite of empowered. There were long reflections where I could not be open with anyone. Isolation is not fun. Very depressing. Everything I did felt like it was just something to do because nothing else was something I could do. I still had the sense of female and male, those are archetypes. Because I have an archetype of them it is not hard to tell, whereas I am concerned, the difference between them. And when I think of males I have a negative and positive feature that repose in the opposite archetype. So not really a personality per say but archetypal (everything female in one entity).

I can think of everything femininity that I portray because it is inside me. I am less embodied with the male side of dominance but submissiveness. But that less true because I combine them at the same time. Because both go into male and female being proportionate. I would put two scales each going from 0 to 100. I would say I am 60% masculine and 50% feminine. A member here views them as androgynous. I would say 10 percentage on male and female.

So it is more complicated because I have an archetype and I try to embody it in my personality. 50% submissiveness. 60 percent dominance. The male side could be lower because as I said I have felt defeated most of the time I have been out of Highschool. One of my sister's friends said I would be a good counselor. I know how to relate to people. What I am trying to get at is that gender identity is not so strong for everyone. I cooperate more than I compete. I am fine with my body the way it is but in my personality most of the time I follow my anima (for females it is animus). I know that to become whole both male and female sides to a person must be combined.

Having a gender identity where you feel you have the wrong body is a serious issue. And I am not diminishing it. But I am saying is that a person can be perceived as acting opposite to their gender by behaviors. Like how I act online, It is also for the most part how I act in real life.

A very mild tangent (Christianity was very feminizing to the west, it was taken up by people that believed in submissiveness towards God)

To the main point, gender identity is very important to people that notice they are different. I identify with my gender but I am abnormally high, I think, in cooperation and submissiveness. I take each view I see a person makes and add to it. I am nonadversarial. I want people to feel understood and valued for their opinions they share. I do not want anyone to feel isolated like I was.
 

Jennywocky

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#42
My self-concept has in part, over ten years, been shaped by the 5 mental breakdowns I had after high school. Each time I felt defeated. The opposite of empowered. There were long reflections where I could not be open with anyone. Isolation is not fun. Very depressing. Everything I did felt like it was just something to do because nothing else was something I could do. I still had the sense of female and male, those are archetypes. Because I have an archetype of them it is not hard to tell, whereas I am concerned, the difference between them. And when I think of males I have a negative and positive feature that repose in the opposite archetype. So not really a personality per say but archetypal (everything female in one entity).

I can think of everything femininity that I portray because it is inside me. I am less embodied with the male side of dominance but submissiveness. But that less true because I combine them at the same time. Because both go into male and female being proportionate. I would put two scales each going from 0 to 100. I would say I am 60% masculine and 50% feminine. A member here views them as androgynous. I would say 10 percentage on male and female.

So it is more complicated because I have an archetype and I try to embody it in my personality. 50% submissiveness. 60 percent dominance. The male side could be lower because as I said I have felt defeated most of the time I have been out of Highschool. One of my sister's friends said I would be a good counselor. I know how to relate to people. What I am trying to get at is that gender identity is not so strong for everyone. I cooperate more than I compete. I am fine with my body the way it is but in my personality most of the time I follow my anima (for females it is animus). I know that to become whole both male and female sides to a person must be combined.
Yeah, see, again, you keep discussing "qualities" that you think are male and qualities you think are female... which isn't really what I am describing -- which is more of an inherent experience versus looking at yourself as a collection of qualities and then trying to derive what gender you are from them. When you say you are 60% female... or 50% male... that is making a list of qualities that you think are either male or female, then working in reverse to decide your gender.

Men can have feminine qualities (as per society) but still totally feel anchored in being men.
Females can have masculine qualities (as per society) but their self-identity can still be completely female.


Having a gender identity where you feel you have the wrong body is a serious issue. And I am not diminishing it. But I am saying is that a person can be perceived as acting opposite to their gender by behaviors. Like how I act online, It is also for the most part how I act in real life.
You can portray any gender you would like. There are no rules about that. You can put out cues to be seen as more masculine or more feminine, based on however you want people to perceive you, sure. That's just something different than what I was describing.

A very mild tangent (Christianity was very feminizing to the west, it was taken up by people that believed in submissiveness towards God)
Well, in the sense that it makes the church the "bride" and God the "male." Although it's also got one of the hardest patriarchal structures to crack... go figure.

To the main point, gender identity is very important to people that notice they are different. I identify with my gender but I am abnormally high, I think, in cooperation and submissiveness. I take each view I see a person makes and add to it. I am nonadversarial. I want people to feel understood and valued for their opinions they share. I do not want anyone to feel isolated like I was.
So are you saying that makes you feminine? I'm not sure where you are going or what you're trying to convey. If you want to take a socially feminine approach, I don't mind either way. it's just something other than my point.
 
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Objects in the mirror might look closer than they
#43
I consider myself half woman. Or at least 45%.
But i only get horny with girls.
I have dressed as girl and put makeup many times
I have painted girls nails
They have painted mine
Its fun
Period
Everyone should do what they please doing
But there's no need to censor a bus with the slogan: girls have pussy and boys dick
 

Serac

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#44
Plot twist: men have nipples because in the old days men used to have milk in their tits to feed babies

On a serious note
Why are people so obsessed with making the "correct" classification of things? It's similar to IQ - what do we achieve by assigning these measures and classifications? Out there in the real world we are just individuals. The world is too complicated for these reductions, folks.
 
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#45
maybe because having an atypical gender ID is at best likely to result in discrimination, often outright hatred or shameless ignorance? animekitty means no harm i'm sure but as Jenny is aptly pointing out, this concept of an internal understanding of your gender is not a matter of "shaping perspectives" and while AK is again, totally fine right now, this is essentially the same rhetoric that people who outright dislike or discriminate against trans/gays will use as the basis for reducing people's gender to just some sort of externally-derived mistake that happened along the way.

it's easy to say, "just don't care about it" but the way people identify and feel about their gender is as major as sexuality. you can't just 'not care' about it if you're constantly ostracized or marginalized as a result of this unchangeable aspect of yourself

it's nice that there are people who truly don't care and just see people as individuals but this is certainly not the typical experience of treatment for someone with gender dysphoria
 

Animekitty

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#46
maybe because having an atypical gender ID is at best likely to result in discrimination, often outright hatred or shameless ignorance? animekitty means no harm i'm sure but as Jenny is aptly pointing out, this concept of an internal understanding of your gender is not a matter of "shaping perspectives" and while AK is again, totally fine right now, this is essentially the same rhetoric that people who outright dislike or discriminate against trans/gays will use as the basis for reducing people's gender to just some sort of externally-derived mistake that happened along the way.
I do not think I said anything about how Jenny is wrong and I am not ignoring her points. The biological makeup of a person that happens to be gay/trans I do know that the experience is abnormal because you do not seem to fit in. I am not calling gender a social construct. All I mean is that during our whole life we typically are able to separate male from female by ever males and female we meet. I gave two examples of what I think gender is to me (dominance and submissiveness) And I have a scale on where I think I fit on both of them. If I am a submissive male I think this would tell people about my gender tendencies.

I was getting at that you do not have to be gay/trans to experience yourself as similar to a gender. Sometimes I feel feminine around people I can trust. I will probably talk to my therapist about it. What I think about gender can be criticised if gender means something different than yours. For me, it is just psychological but I understand that it has extremes as a biological urge to be what you feel you should be.

it's easy to say, "just don't care about it" but the way people identify and feel about their gender is as major as sexuality. you can't just 'not care' about it if you're constantly ostracized or marginalized as a result of this unchangeable aspect of yourself
When I tell people that people see me as a girl online they dismiss it while I take it seriously. Because identity is what I think about. I listen to people and share concerns. My gender identity and my self-concept have to come from a source and It is that the more I am kind to others the more I am strengthing the feminine aspect of myself. The spectrum I mentioned does not need my definitions to work. People can look inside themselves and see how different actions change how they see their gender. In no way will I say gender is socially constructed but that even normal people like me have issues with identity. It can be hardwired in some but I am best following what my Anima is showing me how to behave. Being hardwired is not a social construct, but the ability to detect both genders in yourself is something I explore.

it's nice that there are people who truly don't care and just see people as individuals but this is certainly not the typical experience of treatment for someone with gender dysphoria
I do not support unfair treatment of any marginalized group. My gay friend staying in the back room of my house is super friendly and talks to me about gender issues. I will talk to him after this message. He is really into boy bands. The way I understand gender is simplified in my posts but it was to show what I think currently, I am open to other views on gender. I mostly have been limited to forming an identity in the mist of Isolation. And how it crippled me. Negative experiences and my moral center were in conflict. I always do what others tell me to do but only if convenience is there. My sense of self is still weak but I have learned how to cope.

If I have a wrong view on gender may someone point it out? My understanding comes from all experience I have had with females my whole life. The masculine things most men wish to do I am not interested. I am more comfortable talking to women because they are much better at understanding me. My view is that I get along better with women than men is because at least in the church I go to, is that they have a more intuitive understanding of what you say than men. More accepting, fewer judgments. I find little of this in men even if church feminizes you, the men are point to fact.

My type INTJ may be influencing me also (Is a Feminized Male INTJ a thing?) I often stand back from situations and use Ni and Fi to resolve conflicts. And what about Female INTJ's, the girl from 2009 could have been one (Ni eyes). Two days ago I saw a blonde girl in my dream. I tried to hold her but she was busy with protractors solving a math problem. What mad the dream significant was that it was half lucid.
Like most another dream I have of female figures my half lucidness they seem like real people. If my dream made them up then they are part of me. So there is inside me that which is all my feminine experience interacting with them. It is not just conditioning, it is a life history. Everything I know about femininity is about what is inside me. I miss the girl with the Ni eyes.
 
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#47
was responding to serac mostly and like i said i don't think you intend to be harmful or anything, just that the concept of gender being this shapeable and changing thing while might be true for you, is definitely not "how gender works" and the basis of your kind of argument is a staple among dissenters of people with atypical gender

i won't get too involved in how religious groups force women into roles of nurturing but i do find the description of your church group pretty damn repulsive

being kind to others isn't a 'female' trait
 

Animekitty

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#48
was responding to serac mostly and like i said i don't think you intend to be harmful or anything, just that the concept of gender being this shapeable and changing thing while might be true for you, is definitely not "how gender works" and the basis of your kind of argument is a staple among dissenters of people with atypical gender.
I do not discount that gender is innate. I have just noticed that the difference between male and female from my entire life experience. And that I am reaching into it and trying to be more like the ideal I have of what I should be because of it. I never had strong responsible men in my life. I cannot model anything close to a male understanding of the ideal I intuit from my male side as intensely from what I can my female side. So even if I am male I do not look at male attributes as what the ideal should be. I meet more with the female attributes of myself as the ideal. And this is not the entire psyche I know but when I am around people I think of what the ideal female would do. If I were different I would think of what the ideal man would do, but this is the opposite the case of how I orient myself in social relationships.

The cause may have been that I have not seen my father since 6 years old. And so never had strong males figures in life. Masculine men scare me because of communications barrier. My emotions were just not set up to be confrontational. This is not just a shapeable and changing thing in my mind. I have spent time understanding what it is that I should be doing because I have had 10 years to think about it. To see what it means for males and females to make decisions and that I was drawn to my way of communication by how females do so. It did not happen overnight. I seriously had to find out how I related to others. It was a cognitive development filled with emotional events and a desperate need for some kind of contact.

I told my aunt last night I thought life was meaningless. She got worried and asked if I wanted to go to the hospital. I said no but she was still worried. The only time I mostly feel better is when I see my therapist. I can be completely open with her.

I feel I am incomplete, I make up for it by social communication. And by my understanding of the Anima, I try to be the best people by the ideal feminine aspects inside of me.

is definitely not "how gender works" and the basis of your kind of argument is a staple among dissenters of people with atypical gender.
There is no question in my mind that the brain is involved and that gender is set. And that hypermasculinity and hyper-femininity exist. But it is not that I am a dissenter. What is really going on is that I identify with the mentality of females as I know what that is inside me. Some of it is emotions and feeling. But I must tell you that I only identify with the mentality. I am still a male but I know in my mind that there is feminine nature I cannot separate from myself in my mind. I am in full support for people to identify with a gender because that is what their brain tells them to do. I would say that because of my isolation and how I contain the femininity inside me, that I may be portrayed as a Female INTJ. I am sure many people have written on Female INTJ's but like the stereotype about male INTJ's Stereotypical female INTJ's are not what they are portrayed as (like male INTJ's). Everything I experienced I think increased my connection to Introverted Feeling. This may be I suspect that I am acting like a female INTJ. Because being a female INTJ would already be more in touch with Fi than Male INTJ's.

I identify mentally as female and emotionally in addition, definitely intuitive. Physically I identify as male, I am fine in my male body. I could have an atypical gender but I am unclear what that means. Gender being attached to the self-concept could be used to say for me I have internalized many female traits. These traits affect my mentality/behaviors. It is as if by analogy a female internalize vast quantities of traits males have but still remain gender identified as a female.

I think I am above average in understanding my opposite gender with is female. So I am better at communications with them. I have poor communication with males. My gender identity is the same as my sex but in the composition of my male attributes I fall flat because I am not a typical INTJ, I had to suffer allot to realize I am weak in masculine traits.

edit

(most of my role models were feminine or acted feminine)
(to me at least they seemed that way)
 

crippli

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#49
I think the main characteristic with feminism is like most other beliefs and idealism that it gets used for personal gain.

Am I allowed to pick the definition I think makes the most sense?

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Feminism

The belief that women are and should be treated as potential intellectual equals and social equals to men. These people can be either male or female human beings, although the ideology is commonly (and perhaps falsely) associated mainly with women.

Feminism also, by its nature, embraces the belief that all people are entitled to freedom and liberty within reason--including equal civil rights--and that discrimination should not be made based on gender, sexual orientation, skin color, ethnicity, religion, culture, or lifestyle.
Worded like that it reads to me as one could simply swap the word feminism out with fairness.

The sad story is I have not met anyone who comes even close to be able to live up to that definition, so it's somewhat meaningless. Quite similar to religious ideologies. Usually is used as a weapon instead of introverted personal instruction on how to live your life.

I think at least the above definition is amongst the better abc for dummies on how to live your life if one don't know how. I support it. Much better then all the religions stuff that is floating around.

I'm pretty sure it could all be done even better if someone actually bothered to sit down an pen down an updated user guide on life. Something that had less of an chasm between the theoretical and the practical.
 

EditorOne

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#50
Hi, Higgs.

I have noticed that seeking to identify as "oppressed" seems to be a growth industry these days, whether it's a woman "identifying" as black out on the West Coast even though she's as white as Marie Antoinette, or angry white people claiming they are Irish and that Irish were brought to this country as chattel slaves, just like the black people they find annoying. My conclusion is that we have somehow bred a nation of drama queens looking to claim singularity and uniqueness by joining the ranks of the oppressed. Other than that I have no explanation, other than no matter what the discussions, sooner or later someone claiming to be a victim will attempt to hijack it, other than in here where, of course, we are all already stigmatized by being INTP and that's sufficient to scratch that itch. :-)